Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and
Speaker 1: on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television. Today's episode is a bonus
Speaker 1: midweek special to coincide with the launch of Mister in
Speaker 1: Between series three. Yep May twenty six, at eight thirty
Speaker 1: on Foxtel, you can start the final series of one
Speaker 1: of Australia's most original characters, Ray Shuesmith. He's a hit man,
Speaker 1: but the twist really lies in the characters likability. I
Speaker 1: saw the character's first incarnation as a short film called
Speaker 1: The Magician at the sink Hilda Film Festival in two
Speaker 1: thousand and four, which was nearly twenty years ago. The
Speaker 1: story resonated with Joel Edgerton's brother, Nash Edgerton, who was
Speaker 1: one of Australia's best storytellers. Nash believed in this wildly
Speaker 1: successful story from the ground floor, and since then we
Speaker 1: have seen a feature film and then this wildly successful
Speaker 1: current FX series which is in its third but sadly
Speaker 1: final series. The show is quite violent, but the heart
Speaker 1: and soul of the story is like nothing you've seen before.
Speaker 1: I have the creator, writer and star Scott Ryan with
Speaker 1: us to discuss the origins of Mister in between violence
Speaker 1: and Cinema, why the show is coming to an end,
Speaker 1: and he will reveal if he is sad about this
Speaker 1: final chapter for his iconic character. I absolutely loved this chat,
Speaker 1: and I hope you do too, So I'd like to
Speaker 1: welcome Scott Ryan and you so this week's TV Reload
Speaker 1: Bonus episode.
Speaker 2: I just started tracking down every book ever written about hitman,
Speaker 2: and you don't understand is ye as bad people at
Speaker 2: the The thing I like about guys like Ray is
Speaker 2: they don't hear the consequences a.
Speaker 1: Story about a hit man who's just trying to show
Speaker 1: the world that your job doesn't to fight you.
Speaker 2: I think we've all at some point wanted to hit somebody.
Speaker 1: And the actor goes to Scott Ryan.
Speaker 2: There's so many people out there watching the show who
Speaker 2: understand what it's like to go out and kill people.
Speaker 1: But the beauty of it is you're just watching a
Speaker 1: man make one choice after the other and kind of
Speaker 1: emphasizing with it.
Speaker 2: To be honest with you, I think we did amorized
Speaker 2: violence as a society.
Speaker 1: How are you made to you?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, good mate yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm actually really excited to be having this chat
Speaker 1: with you. I have to say that Mister in Between
Speaker 1: has had a real cult following. There are those that
Speaker 1: know how good it is and those that don't, but
Speaker 1: anyone who's watched the show has really loved it. How
Speaker 1: have you processed the popularity of the show.
Speaker 2: Well, look, when you make anything, you want other people
Speaker 2: to like it. That's number one. You know, if you
Speaker 2: make something and people respond to it positively, you feel vindicated.
Speaker 2: Those thousands of hours that I spent doing that, not
Speaker 2: sleeping properly, not eating properly, and everything else that goes
Speaker 2: into it, do you feel like, well, it was worth it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1: What were you the most inspired by growing up watching TV?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you look at Happy Days, Gilligan's Island,
Speaker 2: Lost in Space. Yeah, lots and lots of stuff, And
Speaker 2: then I guess they got older. I got into Sein Fowl,
Speaker 2: Curby Your Enthusiasm, and in a lot of ways, this
Speaker 2: show is kind of a lot like curbyr. Enthusiasm, except
Speaker 2: that instead of the show being about a comedian Larry David,
Speaker 2: it's about a hit man really, and his responses to
Speaker 2: people are probably just a little different. To Larry David's responses.
Speaker 2: Rather than sort of yelling at people, he just tends
Speaker 2: to kill them or beat them up.
Speaker 1: Well you play. I mean, this guy is so likable.
Speaker 1: He's the likable hit man. He's kind of the anti
Speaker 1: hero in a way, which made me think about all
Speaker 1: the roughest people that I've met in my life, and
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, why are so many bad
Speaker 1: guys so charming?
Speaker 2: The thing is with bad guys as opposed to nice guys,
Speaker 2: or however you want to put it, bad guys are
Speaker 2: not really I think what keeps a lot of us
Speaker 2: in check is fear of consequences. I think we've all
Speaker 2: at some point wanted to hit somebody. Yeah, if we're
Speaker 2: all honest, you know there are people that we have
Speaker 2: wanted to punch in the face. Why don't we because
Speaker 2: we're scared they're going to punch us back, or we're
Speaker 2: scared that if we do some damage, we're going to
Speaker 2: go to jail. Whereas the thing I like about guys
Speaker 2: like Ray is they don't fear the consequences so much. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to hear you, and that's it. And so
Speaker 2: I think fear keeps a lot of us in society.
Speaker 2: You know, whether it's fear of getting hurt, or fear
Speaker 2: of going to jail, or fear of the consequences, whatever
Speaker 2: they may be, actually keeps a lot of people in check.
Speaker 2: And there's something about watching these people do what we
Speaker 2: all would like to do. Every now and then we're
Speaker 2: living vicariously. They're doing the things that we would like
Speaker 2: to do to some extent, you know, That's what it is,
Speaker 2: I think. I mean, that's why I enjoy watching these
Speaker 2: sort of characters, you know, because they're living that life
Speaker 2: that I kind of would like to. Well.
Speaker 1: In school, I just wanted to share this with you that,
Speaker 1: you know, there was a couple of rough guys in
Speaker 1: my year level and they really protected me because for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, they thought I was funny. But it made
Speaker 1: me think about is it good to have a few
Speaker 1: characters like Ray in your back pocket?
Speaker 2: Oh? Look, at least one everybody should have a Ray
Speaker 2: character in their life. At least one. I've got a
Speaker 2: Ray character in my life. It's good to have people that.
Speaker 2: I mean, You've got to be careful, you know, because
Speaker 2: if somebody annoys you, you can't really tell them, you know,
Speaker 2: you can't get them go, oh, this person they did this,
Speaker 2: they did that, and ah, you know, because the problem
Speaker 2: is they'll go and do something about it. They might
Speaker 2: take just not whoever that person was. I'll have a
Speaker 2: nasty accident, they'll trip over, and yeah, you got to
Speaker 2: be careful to some degree, I've learned.
Speaker 1: How did you come up with the story originally? I mean,
Speaker 1: this character has been now alive for twenty years nearly,
Speaker 1: you know, two thousand and four for us the first
Speaker 1: time audience has met him, but for you probably longer.
Speaker 1: But how did you come up with this story?
Speaker 2: Well? I was I read a book called Contract Killer
Speaker 2: years ago and it was about an American hit man
Speaker 2: and it was basically a biography and he was just
Speaker 2: talking about his life and how he got into it
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I just I was fascinated by the character.
Speaker 2: You know, I had to well, I wanted to make
Speaker 2: a feature. I had no money, and I thought, well,
Speaker 2: why don't I do mocumentary breake docco about this character.
Speaker 2: But he's not American, He's Australian, and let's follow him
Speaker 2: and just watch his sort of day to day life.
Speaker 2: And that's basically where the character Race Hu Smith came afternoon, sir,
Speaker 2: are you Ray Shu Smith? I don't answer questions. Can
Speaker 2: I help you? We're looking for a ras Shoe Smith?
Speaker 2: Does he live here? I don't answer questions.
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Is there somebody here who can answer questions? I don't
Speaker 2: answer questions. Okay, I don't really know how to respond
Speaker 2: to that, Sir.
Speaker 1: What sort of research do you do? I mean you
Speaker 1: said that you read this book and sort of that
Speaker 1: was the inception, but you know, at the point where
Speaker 1: you're trying to make this real life, So what sort
Speaker 1: of research did you do?
Speaker 2: Well? Basically, I just started tracking down every book ever
Speaker 2: written about Hitmenn, whether it was biographical or whatever, you know,
Speaker 2: true crime, a lot of mafia stuff, and anything where
Speaker 2: there was any kind of mention of a hit man.
Speaker 2: I read it and made notes, a lot, a lot
Speaker 2: of notes. You know, this is the other and you know,
Speaker 2: I known people in alive who you could say are
Speaker 2: a little bit dodgy, spoke to them, and then, of course,
Speaker 2: you know that's the work side of it, but then
Speaker 2: with the personal side of it, you're talking to other people.
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of the stuff in the show
Speaker 2: that relates to Ray and Britney is based on experiences.
Speaker 2: The nash the director had with his daughter, who plays
Speaker 2: my daughter in the show, sounds like a myth, Hospark.
Speaker 2: It's like a like a tradition. So he is reel, No,
Speaker 2: it's not.
Speaker 1: So where did presents come from? So why do you
Speaker 1: lie about that?
Speaker 2: Good question? I mean, I don't even know whether I
Speaker 2: will say anything comes from the sex talk and all
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff that all came from just talking
Speaker 2: to him. He was telling me these stories. And you
Speaker 2: know the Christmas scene with the guy getting you know,
Speaker 2: taking his daughter's present, that actually happened to his daughter.
Speaker 2: You know, somebody took her present that she really wanted
Speaker 2: during a secret Sannah. That's the inspiration for that. You know,
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of stuff has come from different people's
Speaker 2: experience as friends of mine. You know, I've had conversations
Speaker 2: with people. I mean, there was a conversation in season
Speaker 2: two where Ray and Gary are sitting around the fire
Speaker 2: and they're talking about Kalamari. I was, you know, I
Speaker 2: had that conversation with Justin Rosneyak who plays Gary in
Speaker 2: his kitchen, and I said, oh mate, this is probably
Speaker 2: gonna end up in the show. I don't think he
Speaker 2: believed me, and then a year later we're sitting around
Speaker 2: the fire doing it in front of a camera. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's the best thing about your work, though,
Speaker 1: is that there is I mean, you're bringing real life
Speaker 1: conversations into these characters, into these stories. I mean, I
Speaker 1: like that about Australian drama in particularly especially in Australian
Speaker 1: scripted drama, is where you feel like, these conversations are
Speaker 1: those real human moments that we have with one another,
Speaker 1: and that's when you resonate as an.
Speaker 2: Audi earlier, because yeah, it helps you hook in. And
Speaker 2: it's especially difficult with a character like this because there's
Speaker 2: so many people out there watching the show who understand
Speaker 2: what it's like to go out and kill people. I mean,
Speaker 2: if he was an accountant, there's lots of accountants who
Speaker 2: could relate, but because of what he does, people can't relate.
Speaker 2: So you've got to have that dialogue there so that
Speaker 2: people can relate to him. People can go what you,
Speaker 2: I've had a conversation just like that and I feel
Speaker 2: exactly the same way as he feels, and that gets
Speaker 2: the audience to them to be able to relate to
Speaker 2: this person and go, oh okay, yeah, I kind of
Speaker 2: know people like this or I'm kind of like that
Speaker 2: that hooks you in. I mean, the whole conceit of
Speaker 2: the show is I wanted people to see what this
Speaker 2: guy's life is like, but I also wanted to like
Speaker 2: him and to also get people to sort of, I guess,
Speaker 2: be less judgmental of other people. Just because somebody does
Speaker 2: this for a living doesn't mean they're necessarily evil, you know.
Speaker 2: And everybody has good qualities, Even people who are evil
Speaker 2: have good qualities, even people who do bad things, even
Speaker 2: bad guys, you know. And I've met some bad guys
Speaker 2: in my time, when I found them to be the
Speaker 2: most dangerous people I've ever met, are also the most nicest, respectful, honest,
Speaker 2: and loyal people I've ever met.
Speaker 1: It's so true, though, But you know what's interesting is
Speaker 1: I have to confess to you my favorite characters in
Speaker 1: television and film have always been flawed characters, people who
Speaker 1: are almost a little bit villainous.
Speaker 2: Because they're more interesting.
Speaker 1: They are more interesting. But I think for me it's
Speaker 1: more relatable, and I in my own life am more
Speaker 1: trustworthy with people who are upfront about their flaws and
Speaker 1: own their flaws instead of are that, because I'd much
Speaker 1: prefer to be friends with someone who's honest and bad
Speaker 1: about who they are than these people who pretend to
Speaker 1: be good. The more perfect someone tries to present themselves
Speaker 1: to me, the more likely I'm going to run away
Speaker 1: because I'll be like, they're the ones you've got to
Speaker 1: worry about.
Speaker 2: That, That's exactly true. The people in this life give
Speaker 2: you have to watch out for the phonies. People got
Speaker 2: to watch out for the people who pretend to be
Speaker 2: something but they're really not. You know, those are the
Speaker 2: people who are most evil.
Speaker 1: Who could be bothered trying to pretend to be someone
Speaker 1: that they're not. To be honest with you, To be.
Speaker 2: Honest with you, I think everybody is a little phony
Speaker 2: to some degree. I don't think anybody is one hundred
Speaker 2: percent of authentic. The amount of work it takes to
Speaker 2: be phony, it's like you're acting all the time. It's
Speaker 2: like you've created this character and then acting that person
Speaker 2: out in real life to be somebody or not. And
Speaker 2: that must be incredibly tiring, because I know how tiring
Speaker 2: is to act a camera. That I have to do
Speaker 2: that every day when there's no cameras must be incredibly
Speaker 2: difficult and keeping track of all the lies? What lie
Speaker 2: did I tell? How am I going to tell this lie?
Speaker 2: How am I going to come up? Is anybody going
Speaker 2: to find out the lies that I've told? All that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff must be It's just incredibly hard work,
Speaker 2: and I can't I feel sorry for anybody with a
Speaker 2: disease of phoniness.
Speaker 1: Has this character evolved in a way that's quite surprising?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean
Speaker 2: when I created the show, I kind of had a
Speaker 2: sense of where it was going to go. You know
Speaker 2: that it was going to be more of a character
Speaker 2: study than the film was, and we're going to get
Speaker 2: to see what it's like for, you know, to live
Speaker 2: this kind of double life for this guy, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: I kind of always knew where I wanted it to go.
Speaker 1: And if you had to describe each season by overall theme,
Speaker 1: like I felt like, you know, you've been telling it
Speaker 1: an evolution. Is there a way you could describe each season?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean season one is about a guy who
Speaker 2: is very good at his job and he's basically bulletproof.
Speaker 2: If I wrote all that again season two, the audience
Speaker 2: would be like, well that was good season one, but
Speaker 2: is that it? So Season two was more about getting
Speaker 2: deeper into the character. Why is this guy doing this?
Speaker 2: And who is he? You know, let's look at that
Speaker 2: and let's have some cracks to start appearing and starting
Speaker 2: to see the flaws in this person and a little
Speaker 2: more and then you know, taking it into season three,
Speaker 2: we've said all that up. You know, we know he's
Speaker 2: good at this, and that we know he's got flaws,
Speaker 2: We know your cracks, we know where he why he is,
Speaker 2: what he is to some degree. Let's really see if
Speaker 2: we can really get this guy to just crack, if
Speaker 2: we can finally get this guy to just go ah
Speaker 2: and we do.
Speaker 1: Is there any concern that you might be glamorizing violence
Speaker 1: at all when you're telling this story.
Speaker 2: Look, I think, to be honest with you, I think
Speaker 2: we do glamorize violence as a society. You look at
Speaker 2: guys who go after war and they heroically kill twenty people.
Speaker 2: What do we do We give him a medal, you know,
Speaker 2: give him the medal of honor, or we give him this,
Speaker 2: or we make a movie about you know, this guy
Speaker 2: and what he did, and we do glorify it. We
Speaker 2: turn these people into heroes, and so we should. If
Speaker 2: you go and risk your life to fight for your
Speaker 2: country so that guys like you and I can be
Speaker 2: free to live the lives that we want to live,
Speaker 2: and you're prepared to go and die, we should glorify that. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't have a problem with law refine
Speaker 2: violence because violence is a part of life, and it's
Speaker 2: a necessary part of life. But by the same token,
Speaker 2: we shouldn't glorify it all. Some violence is just not on.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a line that you shouldn't cross.
Speaker 1: I needed to ask you this because this has been
Speaker 1: plaguing me for years. But in the first episode of
Speaker 1: series one, there is this spectacular fall in the opening sequence.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. How the hell was that done.
Speaker 2: We had the guy on a rig, so you know,
Speaker 2: he's got a harness and he's got a cap and
Speaker 2: we've got a rig there and you basically just paint
Speaker 2: all that stuff out posts so you can't see it.
Speaker 2: But basically, yeah, I really pushed him. I really pushed
Speaker 2: him off those stairs.
Speaker 1: How would you describe the passion of those Edguton boys
Speaker 1: Like I remember in Lockdown I stumbled across I think
Speaker 1: it was sixty minutes. I can't remember, but it was
Speaker 1: like a tell all about the two boys and the
Speaker 1: trajectory of their careers and the place in which it
Speaker 1: started with their passion for film. But how would you
Speaker 1: describe working with those boys and Nash particularly, I.
Speaker 2: Guess the word I would say is they're very, very driven.
Speaker 2: Definitely very driven and very hard working people, both of them.
Speaker 1: And then after your journey, because this is a really
Speaker 1: important question for you at this point, but are you
Speaker 1: ready to say goodbye to this character?
Speaker 2: Most definitely. I mean, it's been over twenty years for me,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I'm ready to go and play a romantic
Speaker 2: lead in a big budget romantic comedy in the US. Now.
Speaker 1: I will be sad to see the story finish, but
Speaker 1: I also am so excited to see what you do next.
Speaker 1: One question I always ask my guests before they go,
Speaker 1: what is an amazing story from behind the scenes that
Speaker 1: we as an audience would appreciate.
Speaker 2: One of the gutsiest things I've ever seen, actually in
Speaker 2: my life was one of the actors in season three
Speaker 2: who I won't name, who had a bit of an
Speaker 2: issue with heights and all that kind of stuff. She
Speaker 2: was put in a situation where you know, she was
Speaker 2: off the ground and was completely terrified to do this
Speaker 2: particular scene. I gave her the out. I said, look,
Speaker 2: if you really don't want to do it, but she's like, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'll do it. And she was, you know, in tears
Speaker 2: and completely terrified, handshaking, and still went through with it.
Speaker 2: That's one of the gutsiest things I've ever said. Anybody
Speaker 2: do it. Be that terrified, but have that much courage
Speaker 2: to go and do it anyway. And you know, it's tough.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's you know, you have plenty of fun,
Speaker 2: but it's also a tough gig and you definitely suffer
Speaker 2: for your art. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: you know, if you can look back on it and
Speaker 2: look at the product and go, well, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: proud of it, I'm happy with it, then it's all
Speaker 2: worth it. I'd hate to suffer through something and then
Speaker 2: look at at the end and go, oh my god,
Speaker 2: it's a pile of shit, you know, like that. I
Speaker 2: think that'd be one of the worst things I've managine.
Speaker 2: So luckily I'm not faced with that dilemma.
Speaker 1: Just to wrap this up, I just want to say
Speaker 1: you have just done such an incredible job with his story,
Speaker 1: and I think as an audience member, I'm so proud
Speaker 1: of you and I can't wait to see what it
Speaker 1: is that could you do next. And thank you for
Speaker 1: bringing such rich storytelling to Australia but to the world,
Speaker 1: you know, being on Fax, having it been seen in America.
Speaker 1: It's something that I think you should be really proud of.
Speaker 1: So I want to say thanks for that.
Speaker 2: It was good to talk to you man. I have
Speaker 2: to say, if everybody's questions were this good, it'd make
Speaker 2: my it'd make my job of kind of getting the
Speaker 2: show out there a lot, a lot more enjoyable. So
Speaker 2: thank you.