WEBVTT - Eric Barker on his Five-Hour Rule and deliberate work-life imbalance 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:02.560 As a listener of how I work. 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:04.920 You've hopefully picked up a few tips on this show 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.560 to help you work better? But do you want more? 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.000 And maybe in a book form, because let's face it, 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.160 books are the most awesome thing on the planet. Well, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.440 now you can. In my new book, time Wise, I 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.279 uncover a wealth of proven strategies that anyone can use 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.640 to improve their productivity, work, and lifestyle. Time Wise brings 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.600 together all of the gems that I've learned from conversations 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.480 with the world's greatest thinkers, including Adam Grant, Dan Pink, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.880 Mia Friedman, and Turia Pitt and many many others. Time 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.240 Wise is launching on July five, but you can pre 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.080 order it now from Amantha dot com. And if you 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.800 pre order time Wise, I have a couple of bonuses 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.199 for you. First, you'll receive an ebook that details my 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.880 top twenty favorite apps and software for being time wise 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.120 with email, calendar, passwords, reading, cooking ideas, and more. You 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:02.360 will also get a complementary spot in a webinar that 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.000 I'm running on June twenty nine, where I will be 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.399 sharing the tactics from time Wise that I use most often, 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.840 and also some bonus ones that are not in the 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:15.920 book that I use and love. Hop onto Amantha dot Com. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.160 To pre order now. 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.279 I hit delete on almost every newsletter I have found 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.520 myself subscribed to, but I have never hit delete on 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.640 anything written by Eric Barker. Eric is one of my 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.280 favorite writers in the area of human behavior, and I 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:38.920 am not alone. Over three hundred and fifty thousand people 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:43.600 subscribe to his newsletter. Eric's the author of Barking Up 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.040 the Wrong Tree and more recently Plays Well with Others, 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.440 two books that take some of the most fundamental ideas, platitudes, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.040 and niceties that society has to offer and puts them 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.720 under the microscope. Eric's convinced that too much of the 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.800 world coming out of the self help, productivity and health 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.680 arenas is vague and confusing, and he's using his blog 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.560 and his books to help make self help feel more 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.040 like an ike emmanual, which, trust me, is a good thing. 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:16.000 So given Eric is. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.919 Immersed in human behavior research every day and writes about 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.440 it for the masses, I wanted to know which strategies 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:31.680 he actually uses himself. My name is doctor amanthe Immer. 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.480 I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of Behavioral Science 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.720 Consultancy inventium and this is how I work a show 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.600 about how to help you do your best work. So 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.120 Eric is not a fan of work life balance, and 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.680 I wanted to know if he's not striving for balance, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.000 what is he aiming for with his work life? 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.880 Yeah, I don't. I don't really believe work lithe balance. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.600 I mean I think that. I mean, in the end, 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.440 you're going to have to draw a line like That's 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.600 That's what it comes down to, is that, you know, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.519 the in the past, we we could have better work 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:13.120 life balance simply because you know, the office closed at 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.120 five pm, or you know, there was no email, the 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.240 mail only came once a day, the newspaper only came 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.720 once a day. It's like, now you can work as 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.839 long as you want to, you know. So in the end, 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.360 you you you kind of have to draw a line 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.560 yourself if you want it. But I don't know. For 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:35.040 me personally, imbalance is more of the way to go. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.760 Like I well, I think if you if you really 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.080 want to if you really want to excel, if you 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.720 really want to go hard on something, you know, I 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:49.400 think you need to devote a positively disproportionate, if not obsessional, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.600 level of energy towards something and and a lot of 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.800 people I think here that and they it's you know, 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.400 they they they might reject it, but I think actually 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.600 a lot of us live like that. It's just not deliberate. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:07.560 I think a lot of people, you know, miss that email, 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.480 miss that phone call, you know, maybe don't pay that bill. 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.960 They do let balls drop, but it's not deliberate, it's 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:14.720 not strategic. 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:16.440 Okay, So I like this idea. 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:22.719 It's interesting of being consciously unbalanced or imbalanced, and I 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.920 think that for people that are that way, there's often 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.480 a lot of guilt associated with it, but it sounds 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.479 like for you there's not. So how have you deliberately 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.560 leant into that imbalance? 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:33.719 Like? 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.839 How is your life deliberately crafted? Differently? 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.840 I think the issue here is having to face and 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.960 make tough decisions. I think one of the reasons why, 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.720 well why a lot of people want, why a lot 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.680 of people do drop balls but they make it feel accidental, 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.680 is that prevents them from having to make hard decisions. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.080 That prevents them from having to say, you know what, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.240 I really don't want to talk to that person who 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.760 called me, and they if you have to say that 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.320 in order to make it low priority. You have to 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.200 make that decision and say, you know what, this isn't 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.400 that important. I know it's supposed to be important. I 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.719 know everybody tells me it's important, but it's really not 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.440 that important. And you have to make that decision for yourself. 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.160 So for me, like I know, you know, if I'm 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.440 working on a book, if I'm if I'm you know, 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.240 working promoting promoting a book, if I'm working on a 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.240 blog post. It's like every day I wake up and 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.400 I know what is number one, and for me, what 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.839 is number one is usually also number two, three and four, 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.360 and so I am I try and structure my life 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.960 so that I am monotasking and I really don't have 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.400 to think about anything else, and most of what could 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.360 come up, like I said, I have already I've already 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.920 become comfortable with like like like like a samurai, I'm 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.520 comfortable with the idea of death. I know this could happen. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.080 That's fine. Now I can just move forward. And for me, 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.479 it's literally, uh, every day I wake up and I 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.080 have a countdown time around my iPad and it's set 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.279 for five hours. And when I start working, I hit 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.480 the start button and it starts coming down from five hours, 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.200 and if I get up to pee, I hit the 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.400 pause button, and if I check email, I hit the 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:12.680 pause button. I have to take a phone call, I 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.480 hit the pause button. And by the end of the 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.360 day that needs to get to zero, and if it 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.520 doesn't get to zero, then I guess I got more 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.680 work to do. And it's that way I know. I've 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.440 designated this is what's work. And if you're doing anything 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.480 but work doesn't count. And because I think it's so 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.960 easy to rationalize, it's so easy to rationalize and trick yourself, 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.520 or you accomplish something and you feel good and then it's, oh, yeah, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.920 let's I did six good minutes of work. I deserve 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.719 three days off, and like, it's all too easy to 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:45.000 do that, and this keeps me accountable, and it's ruthless, 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:49.320 it's ruthless, but it works five hours. 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.360 I am freaking out about that. 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.400 So I do deep work sprints almost every day of 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:00.160 one to two hours in length, typically close to a 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.440 sixty to ninety minutes in length, and maybe two or 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.200 three of those, and then sort of the day will 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:09.640 progress into more shallow work. So why five hours? That 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.840 seems like a lot in a way. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.360 Well, like I said, it's not one continuous stretch. I 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:19.720 can take a break whenever I want, but you know, 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:21.280 and I could take a break, I do whatever I 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:26.520 have to. So five hours of solid work usually takes 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.880 more like eight to ten hours if I'm really kicking, 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.600 if I'm really kicking ass, it's like I could do 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.960 it in seven. But no, it's like I mean, part 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:42.320 of that is a cumul like is built up stamina 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.680 over time, where you know, once you can do it. 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.480 And part of that is like definitely the you know, 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:52.040 I always prioritize what I use the technical term of 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.920 thinky work, think ye work that I have to use 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.920 a lot of cognitive forest power for that always comes first, 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.560 you know. And by the end of the five hours, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.760 you know, maybe it is you know, looking at research 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:07.480 or something. It's not busy work. It still has to 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:12.360 be something like constructive, you know, but it definitely tones 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.440 down from like really active. I can probably only like 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:21.760 really focus on like solid writing probably for three to 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.480 four you know, but it needs to be contributing to 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.680 the to the bottom line and in that sense, and 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.920 the other good thing about it is if you are 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:37.679 the super productive, uh somewhat anxious type. Then you know 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.320 you can You can do a lot of stuff, but 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:41.839 you can get to that place at the end of 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.480 the day where you're like, like, did I really get 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.080 stuff done? Did I really move the needle? Did I? 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.959 And that five hours and that prioritization, like when that 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.240 when that buzzer goes off and that bell rings, like 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.000 there's no guilt. I did fine, I know I did 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.520 five hours. You know, pausing for anything was not worth 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.000 and I'm done. I am done and I can relax 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:05.880 because otherwise I would drive myself crazy? 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.559 And what else do you do to help optimize those 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.520 five hours in terms of planning for what you will 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:14.520 do during that time? 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.600 I mean, well, a lot of people can give you 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.080 the short term kind of okay, Like I said, do 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.920 the think you work first, do the like I think. 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.560 I think. The advice that I'd rather give people, which 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.160 I think is less discussed and I think should be 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:39.120 more discussed, is while I am involved in pretty much 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:43.840 any project, like I have a I have a a 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.160 word doc open where I am kind of taking notes 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.360 regarding process and stuff. I call it kind of like 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.720 the Book of Me, where basically it's like instead of 0:09:54.880 --> 0:10:00.280 these all purpose generally good sort of advice tips. These 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.960 are like specific to me where it's like you Eric, 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.680 you are going to tell yourself that you will get 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:11.520 to this later and you never do so, do not 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.480 fool your sa It's like it's like it's like doctor 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.760 Jekyl like chaining himself when he knows that mister Hyde 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:19.800 is coming. Where it's like, okay, how do you lie 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.600 to yourself? What are the rationalizations you usually tell? Oh, 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.040 you know what today, I'll start off with something simple, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:27.680 I can do that really hard work. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:27.920 Late. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.200 No, you can't, and you know it, and we have. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.280 If you look in the notebook here, you've written this 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.360 down four times that you thought you could do it 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.160 and you never did it. And I think that's the 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.840 advice that no book can ever ever ever give you, 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.040 no guru can ever give you, no blog post can 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.400 ever give you. Is your own idiosyncrasies. You know nobody 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.720 can kind of maybe a spouse might have some clue 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.319 or something, or a partner you live with, but overall, 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.520 really that's there is a wormous amount of good advice 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:06.800 that can only come from you to you, and you 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:08.640 need to write it down. You need to write it down. 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.440 You need to review it because otherwise you will rationalize 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.959 and you will tell yourself things, and to have answers 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.840 to those questions to be able to say, you know what, 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.199 taking you know, an extra day off? Is that the 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.520 kind of thing that you come back and you are 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.160 energized and ready to go, and it's such a good idea. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.600 Or you take a day off and all of a sudden, 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.080 you just took three days off and you did, like 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.199 which kind of person are you? That can have different 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.600 effects on people? If you start writing down I know 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:42.960 that this happens. I know if I wake up after 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.520 this hour, you know, stuff doesn't get done. If I 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.720 go to bed this night, Eric, that third drink is 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.480 not a good idea, you know, just like having that 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.040 list is so powerful, and like I said, it's advice 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.200 that only you can give you. And then reading a 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.480 lot of productivities stuff like, all of a sudden, there 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:06.280 becomes an easy way to implement it. Because once you 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.200 start having these personal rules and you and you, like 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.160 I said, you real man, today went really badly? What 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.240 did I do? And then you can say, oh I 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.640 did X? You make a note and all of a sudden, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.959 the structure creates itself because like it or not, you're 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.920 kind of a b testing. You know, maybe you woke 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:25.520 up in the middle of the night and couldn't get 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.080 back to sleep. Okay, you're going to learn something today. 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.920 Maybe you overslept today. Okay, you're going to learn something today. 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.600 And every time I get a tip, I can now, 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:35.960 all of a sudden, it can slot right in like, 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:37.720 oh they say break should be this long, and I 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:39.880 let me try that. Oh that didn't work, And you 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.040 can like all of a sudden, and then what you 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.400 find is it just kind of all comes together like voltron, 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.840 Like you got all the pieces and they're just kind 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.120 of clicking because all of a sudden, you have these 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.760 rules and you you sort of know, you sort of 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.760 know what works. And as long as you read the 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.640 Bible of You, then your productivity religion we'll stay sacred. 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:05.440 You write a lot about happiness in general and just 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.320 how to live you know, a life that is, you know, 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.520 less stressful and more mindful, being more present, being more grateful, 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.040 and being happier and those. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:14.720 Sorts of topics. 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.199 What have been some of the tips and strategies that 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.040 have impacted you the most in those areas? 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.120 First, let me caveat by saying that I'm terrible about 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:31.680 all these things. I just like it's it's funny because 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.520 I'll meet people who read my blog and I just 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:36.560 I feel bad because I think they expect me to 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.800 be a guru or something, and like I am, I 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.079 am not. I am looking for these answers for the 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.320 same reasons other people are I. You know, it's like 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.880 that's why I started. You don't build an Iron Man 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.880 suit because you're invulnerable. You build an Iron Man's suit 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.760 because you're not invulnerable. And you know, I started down 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.800 this journey because I have trouble with these things. But 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.160 I have to say that, you know, as cliche as 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:07.800 it may sound, pausing, stopping whatever the heck crazy thing 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:13.000 my circus brain is doing and just thinking about the 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.360 good stuff in my life and feeling gratitude like it 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.800 is an enormous perspective shift, and that I mean, your 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.000 mileage may vary, but you know, the study show it's 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.960 it is one of the single most powerful things you 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.760 can do. And for me, that perspective shift is enormous 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:33.800 because I am the type who will just go on 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.080 to the no, this is good, this is done, great, Okay, good. 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.000 We want to know about prize. That's nice. What's next? 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.320 You know, like I won't really like appreciate like a 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.160 lot of things. And and it's it's crazy, it's great, 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.880 Like your gratitude is so powerful simply because we spend 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:51.880 so much time trying to do things to be happier 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.440 that oh, I have to get this. I have to 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.080 accomplish that. I have to you know, you have to 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.920 like reach out and to gratitude doesn't cost anything. It 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.040 think costs a damn thing. You just have to All 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.520 you have to do is change your perspective. And it's 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.040 right there waiting. You just have to just put a 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.080 different lens on it, you know. And just you know, 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.720 I had some internet trouble today, you know, driving me 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.480 crazy this morning. You know what, it could have been 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.600 so much worse, you know, it just it resolved itself 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.720 in the end. Didn't have to you know, it didn't 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:24.760 have to go buy a new cable modem, didn't have 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:26.600 to have a repairman. It's like it could have been 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.960 so much worse. I am thankful that it did not. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.960 It was not worse. And just taking a moment to 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.440 switch that perspective, it's all you have to do. It's free, 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.720 it's right there waiting, and trust me, I forget to 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.000 do it at least as much as anybody else does. 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.200 But it really works, definitely, And your latest book is 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.520 Cold plays well with others and it's awesome. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:51.000 I would expect nothing. 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.520 Less, though, and it's hilarious, like all your writing. I'm 0:15:55.600 --> 0:16:00.280 so curious about, particularly business writers that use humor, because 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.200 sadly it is rare, and I think it was a 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.920 couple of years back, I got to speak to Naomi Bagdonis, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.640 who was one of the co authors of Humor Seriously, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.680 and it was really interesting hearing her process for making 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.280 Humor Seriously funny, and that would have been like quite 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.200 odd if it wasn't. But you're writing, like I'll laugh 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.640 out loud when I'm reading your newsletter, which I've subscribed 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.880 to for many years. How was your process for building 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.040 so much humor into your writing? Like I want to know, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.760 does it come naturally or are there kind of tricks 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.760 and formulas and things that you're consciously using. 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.240 So happy you asked this question nobody, but I get 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:42.960 a lot of compliments in the Humor, but nobody ever 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.560 asked me about the process regarding it. And I mean, 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.520 you know, I was a screenwriter in Hollywood for ten 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.840 years before I ever started blogging or stuff like that, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.520 and so like, you know, like writing comedy was something 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.680 that I worked on assiduously for a long time. More specific, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.639 more specific to what you said, like, is this you know, 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.000 like come to this coum naturally or is it like 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.440 really hard? The answer is both. I mean, like very often, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.560 you know, very often, like my first perspective will be 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:19.320 to like, rather than just stating something plainly or just 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:20.960 like what did I see in the book here, I'll 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.200 ask myself, like, Eric, what's your perspective on this? Because 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:28.399 I know whatever crazy thing comes out of like my brain, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.480 like I'll just be okay, Like there is an aspect 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.800 of me saying like, oh okay, like what should I 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.719 not be saying now? And I will and it'll just 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.280 be like thank God for everything. But there's a part 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.560 of it that's natural. But there's also part of it 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:49.520 where you know, I'm always looking for different perspectives. I'm 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.639 always looking at, you know, just different ways of seeing things. 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.080 And sometimes you know, jokes are funny lines and stuff 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.879 will occur to me and I'll keep a list, you know, 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.440 And I'll also keep like words, thoughts, ideas, metaphors, like 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.360 funny things that occur to me where I'm like, oh 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.080 that's a and I have, you know, much my process list. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.880 I also have my joke list and it is obscenely long, 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.480 and I will just go through it and I'll just start. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.840 I keep a lot of lists like that, like for 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.639 both of my books. I have a lot of illustrated 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.560 stories there to like try and just you know, make 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.240 clear on a more visceral level, like the what the 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.679 research is conveying and those stories. You know. I'll just 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.159 be reading articles, I'll be reading books. I'll come across 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.400 something and make a note, and then when it's book time, Oh, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.280 get out the story list and let's go to town. And 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.400 so there is an aspect that for all humor that 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.199 is very spontaneous for me. And then there is a 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.199 time where I will literally, like a sitcom writer, I 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.719 will look at a blog poster, I'll look at a 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.639 section in my book and I will look at it 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.760 much like a like like a like a showrunner on 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.280 a sitcom. I'll just be like, its two jokes per page. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.080 I don't know, we got to bring that up a 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.840 little bit. Let's say, oh, three jokes per page? Doing 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.120 good here? Like I will say, you know, not really there? 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.639 Or is there another way to get this across, you know, 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.800 or like just something where because I find it makes 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.640 such a difference. It makes such a difference, Like if 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:27.199 people wanted to just read completely straight up research, they 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.399 could do that. It's out there. People don't want to. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.760 It's like, you want something accessible, you want something fun. 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:33.639 And that's how I see. I don't have a p 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:35.959 I got. I have a PhD from the University of nowhere. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.560 You know. It's like for me, it's I'm a translator. 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:40.960 Like I take the stuff and I try and you know, 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:42.440 add add a little bit of sugar and make the 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.800 medicine go down, Like, try and make it accessible, try 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.879 and make a fun, try and make it human. And 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:48.119 how I keep trying. 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.640 How do you know if it's going to land? 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.840 I remember in your acknowledgement section, and your acknowledgement section 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.840 is funny, my god, Like literally every part of the 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.640 book is funny. There was this great quote and if 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.159 I was an organized podcas host, I would actually have 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.080 my iPad sitting next to me, which is where your 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.440 book is stored that has the actual quote, but it's 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:09.679 something like like oh no, you can, you do you 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:11.800 have it in front of you. It's the one about 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.440 like writing a joke and not knowing if it lands 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:15.159 for two years. 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.040 Writing a book is like telling a joke and having 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:19.959 to wait two years to find out if it was funny. 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.600 Yes, yes, I love that quote, and like for you, 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.119 how do you know if it's going to land? 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:27.480 If all these jokes are going to land? 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:33.080 I mean, the thing is that my writing process is bonkers, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.159 like like and it's not bonkers because it's like, oh, 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.479 I am an artiste and I'm like, you know, no, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:45.200 I am like like a machine. Like most almost every 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.920 rater I know does like a vombit draft where they 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.080 just kind of like, you know, because most people are 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.879 much more comfortable editing than they are creating. Most people 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.439 are much more comfortable, you know, even if they like 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.840 have to knock out this like very mediocre initial draft, 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:04.439 but then they have something to hang things on to 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.200 build from. They've got a foundation. Most people are much 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.320 more comfortable with that. But I don't like that that 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.879 like to me, I take I take more of an 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.520 architecture perspective where you would never be like, hey, let's 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.880 build a crappy building and then we'll knock it down 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.320 and then we'll build a good one. Like you would 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.040 never do that, you know. It's like what you do 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.960