1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: As a listener of how I work. 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 2: You've hopefully picked up a few tips on this show 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 2: to help you work better? But do you want more? 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: And maybe in a book form, because let's face it, 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 2: books are the most awesome thing on the planet. Well, 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: now you can. In my new book, time Wise, I 7 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 2: uncover a wealth of proven strategies that anyone can use 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: to improve their productivity, work, and lifestyle. Time Wise brings 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: together all of the gems that I've learned from conversations 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 2: with the world's greatest thinkers, including Adam Grant, Dan Pink, 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: Mia Friedman, and Turia Pitt and many many others. Time 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: Wise is launching on July five, but you can pre 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 2: order it now from Amantha dot com. And if you 14 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: pre order time Wise, I have a couple of bonuses 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 2: for you. First, you'll receive an ebook that details my 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: top twenty favorite apps and software for being time wise 17 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 2: with email, calendar, passwords, reading, cooking ideas, and more. You 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: will also get a complementary spot in a webinar that 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: I'm running on June twenty nine, where I will be 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 2: sharing the tactics from time Wise that I use most often, 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: and also some bonus ones that are not in the 22 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: book that I use and love. Hop onto Amantha dot Com. 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: To pre order now. 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,279 Speaker 2: I hit delete on almost every newsletter I have found 25 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 2: myself subscribed to, but I have never hit delete on 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: anything written by Eric Barker. Eric is one of my 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: favorite writers in the area of human behavior, and I 28 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: am not alone. Over three hundred and fifty thousand people 29 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: subscribe to his newsletter. Eric's the author of Barking Up 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: the Wrong Tree and more recently Plays Well with Others, 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: two books that take some of the most fundamental ideas, platitudes, 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: and niceties that society has to offer and puts them 33 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: under the microscope. Eric's convinced that too much of the 34 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: world coming out of the self help, productivity and health 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: arenas is vague and confusing, and he's using his blog 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: and his books to help make self help feel more 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: like an ike emmanual, which, trust me, is a good thing. 38 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: So given Eric is. 39 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 2: Immersed in human behavior research every day and writes about 40 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: it for the masses, I wanted to know which strategies 41 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: he actually uses himself. My name is doctor amanthe Immer. 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of Behavioral Science 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: Consultancy inventium and this is how I work a show 44 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: about how to help you do your best work. So 45 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: Eric is not a fan of work life balance, and 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: I wanted to know if he's not striving for balance, 47 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: what is he aiming for with his work life? 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I don't really believe work lithe balance. 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: I mean I think that. I mean, in the end, 50 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 3: you're going to have to draw a line like That's 51 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: That's what it comes down to, is that, you know, 52 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 3: the in the past, we we could have better work 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: life balance simply because you know, the office closed at 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: five pm, or you know, there was no email, the 55 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: mail only came once a day, the newspaper only came 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: once a day. It's like, now you can work as 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 3: long as you want to, you know. So in the end, 58 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 3: you you you kind of have to draw a line 59 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 3: yourself if you want it. But I don't know. For 60 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: me personally, imbalance is more of the way to go. 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: Like I well, I think if you if you really 62 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: want to if you really want to excel, if you 63 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: really want to go hard on something, you know, I 64 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: think you need to devote a positively disproportionate, if not obsessional, 65 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: level of energy towards something and and a lot of 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 3: people I think here that and they it's you know, 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: they they they might reject it, but I think actually 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: a lot of us live like that. It's just not deliberate. 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people, you know, miss that email, 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 3: miss that phone call, you know, maybe don't pay that bill. 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: They do let balls drop, but it's not deliberate, it's 72 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: not strategic. 73 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So I like this idea. 74 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: It's interesting of being consciously unbalanced or imbalanced, and I 75 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 2: think that for people that are that way, there's often 76 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 2: a lot of guilt associated with it, but it sounds 77 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 2: like for you there's not. So how have you deliberately 78 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: leant into that imbalance? 79 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 3: Like? 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: How is your life deliberately crafted? Differently? 81 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: I think the issue here is having to face and 82 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: make tough decisions. I think one of the reasons why, 83 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 3: well why a lot of people want, why a lot 84 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: of people do drop balls but they make it feel accidental, 85 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 3: is that prevents them from having to make hard decisions. 86 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 3: That prevents them from having to say, you know what, 87 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: I really don't want to talk to that person who 88 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: called me, and they if you have to say that 89 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: in order to make it low priority. You have to 90 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: make that decision and say, you know what, this isn't 91 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: that important. I know it's supposed to be important. I 92 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 3: know everybody tells me it's important, but it's really not 93 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: that important. And you have to make that decision for yourself. 94 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 3: So for me, like I know, you know, if I'm 95 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: working on a book, if I'm if I'm you know, 96 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 3: working promoting promoting a book, if I'm working on a 97 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: blog post. It's like every day I wake up and 98 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 3: I know what is number one, and for me, what 99 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 3: is number one is usually also number two, three and four, 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 3: and so I am I try and structure my life 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 3: so that I am monotasking and I really don't have 102 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: to think about anything else, and most of what could 103 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: come up, like I said, I have already I've already 104 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 3: become comfortable with like like like like a samurai, I'm 105 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 3: comfortable with the idea of death. I know this could happen. 106 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 3: That's fine. Now I can just move forward. And for me, 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 3: it's literally, uh, every day I wake up and I 108 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: have a countdown time around my iPad and it's set 109 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 3: for five hours. And when I start working, I hit 110 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: the start button and it starts coming down from five hours, 111 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: and if I get up to pee, I hit the 112 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: pause button, and if I check email, I hit the 113 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 3: pause button. I have to take a phone call, I 114 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 3: hit the pause button. And by the end of the 115 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: day that needs to get to zero, and if it 116 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: doesn't get to zero, then I guess I got more 117 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: work to do. And it's that way I know. I've 118 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: designated this is what's work. And if you're doing anything 119 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 3: but work doesn't count. And because I think it's so 120 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: easy to rationalize, it's so easy to rationalize and trick yourself, 121 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 3: or you accomplish something and you feel good and then it's, oh, yeah, 122 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 3: let's I did six good minutes of work. I deserve 123 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 3: three days off, and like, it's all too easy to 124 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: do that, and this keeps me accountable, and it's ruthless, 125 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: it's ruthless, but it works five hours. 126 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: I am freaking out about that. 127 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: So I do deep work sprints almost every day of 128 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 2: one to two hours in length, typically close to a 129 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: sixty to ninety minutes in length, and maybe two or 130 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: three of those, and then sort of the day will 131 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: progress into more shallow work. So why five hours? That 132 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: seems like a lot in a way. 133 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 3: Well, like I said, it's not one continuous stretch. I 134 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: can take a break whenever I want, but you know, 135 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: and I could take a break, I do whatever I 136 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: have to. So five hours of solid work usually takes 137 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 3: more like eight to ten hours if I'm really kicking, 138 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: if I'm really kicking ass, it's like I could do 139 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: it in seven. But no, it's like I mean, part 140 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: of that is a cumul like is built up stamina 141 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: over time, where you know, once you can do it. 142 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: And part of that is like definitely the you know, 143 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: I always prioritize what I use the technical term of 144 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: thinky work, think ye work that I have to use 145 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: a lot of cognitive forest power for that always comes first, 146 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: you know. And by the end of the five hours, 147 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 3: you know, maybe it is you know, looking at research 148 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: or something. It's not busy work. It still has to 149 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 3: be something like constructive, you know, but it definitely tones 150 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 3: down from like really active. I can probably only like 151 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: really focus on like solid writing probably for three to 152 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: four you know, but it needs to be contributing to 153 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: the to the bottom line and in that sense, and 154 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: the other good thing about it is if you are 155 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 3: the super productive, uh somewhat anxious type. Then you know 156 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 3: you can You can do a lot of stuff, but 157 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 3: you can get to that place at the end of 158 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 3: the day where you're like, like, did I really get 159 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: stuff done? Did I really move the needle? Did I? 160 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 3: And that five hours and that prioritization, like when that 161 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: when that buzzer goes off and that bell rings, like 162 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: there's no guilt. I did fine, I know I did 163 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: five hours. You know, pausing for anything was not worth 164 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: and I'm done. I am done and I can relax 165 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: because otherwise I would drive myself crazy? 166 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 2: And what else do you do to help optimize those 167 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: five hours in terms of planning for what you will 168 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: do during that time? 169 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 3: I mean, well, a lot of people can give you 170 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 3: the short term kind of okay, Like I said, do 171 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 3: the think you work first, do the like I think. 172 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 3: I think. The advice that I'd rather give people, which 173 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: I think is less discussed and I think should be 174 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: more discussed, is while I am involved in pretty much 175 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 3: any project, like I have a I have a a 176 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: word doc open where I am kind of taking notes 177 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: regarding process and stuff. I call it kind of like 178 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 3: the Book of Me, where basically it's like instead of 179 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 3: these all purpose generally good sort of advice tips. These 180 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: are like specific to me where it's like you Eric, 181 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: you are going to tell yourself that you will get 182 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: to this later and you never do so, do not 183 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: fool your sa It's like it's like it's like doctor 184 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: Jekyl like chaining himself when he knows that mister Hyde 185 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: is coming. Where it's like, okay, how do you lie 186 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 3: to yourself? What are the rationalizations you usually tell? Oh, 187 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: you know what today, I'll start off with something simple, 188 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: I can do that really hard work. 189 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: Late. 190 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 3: No, you can't, and you know it, and we have. 191 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 3: If you look in the notebook here, you've written this 192 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: down four times that you thought you could do it 193 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: and you never did it. And I think that's the 194 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: advice that no book can ever ever ever give you, 195 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: no guru can ever give you, no blog post can 196 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: ever give you. Is your own idiosyncrasies. You know nobody 197 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 3: can kind of maybe a spouse might have some clue 198 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 3: or something, or a partner you live with, but overall, 199 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: really that's there is a wormous amount of good advice 200 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: that can only come from you to you, and you 201 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: need to write it down. You need to write it down. 202 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 3: You need to review it because otherwise you will rationalize 203 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 3: and you will tell yourself things, and to have answers 204 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 3: to those questions to be able to say, you know what, 205 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 3: taking you know, an extra day off? Is that the 206 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: kind of thing that you come back and you are 207 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: energized and ready to go, and it's such a good idea. 208 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 3: Or you take a day off and all of a sudden, 209 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 3: you just took three days off and you did, like 210 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 3: which kind of person are you? That can have different 211 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: effects on people? If you start writing down I know 212 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 3: that this happens. I know if I wake up after 213 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: this hour, you know, stuff doesn't get done. If I 214 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: go to bed this night, Eric, that third drink is 215 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: not a good idea, you know, just like having that 216 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: list is so powerful, and like I said, it's advice 217 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 3: that only you can give you. And then reading a 218 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: lot of productivities stuff like, all of a sudden, there 219 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: becomes an easy way to implement it. Because once you 220 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 3: start having these personal rules and you and you, like 221 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: I said, you real man, today went really badly? What 222 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 3: did I do? And then you can say, oh I 223 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: did X? You make a note and all of a sudden, 224 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 3: the structure creates itself because like it or not, you're 225 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 3: kind of a b testing. You know, maybe you woke 226 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: up in the middle of the night and couldn't get 227 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 3: back to sleep. Okay, you're going to learn something today. 228 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: Maybe you overslept today. Okay, you're going to learn something today. 229 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 3: And every time I get a tip, I can now, 230 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: all of a sudden, it can slot right in like, 231 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 3: oh they say break should be this long, and I 232 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 3: let me try that. Oh that didn't work, And you 233 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: can like all of a sudden, and then what you 234 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 3: find is it just kind of all comes together like voltron, 235 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: Like you got all the pieces and they're just kind 236 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: of clicking because all of a sudden, you have these 237 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: rules and you you sort of know, you sort of 238 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: know what works. And as long as you read the 239 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: Bible of You, then your productivity religion we'll stay sacred. 240 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: You write a lot about happiness in general and just 241 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: how to live you know, a life that is, you know, 242 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: less stressful and more mindful, being more present, being more grateful, 243 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: and being happier and those. 244 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: Sorts of topics. 245 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: What have been some of the tips and strategies that 246 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: have impacted you the most in those areas? 247 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: First, let me caveat by saying that I'm terrible about 248 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 3: all these things. I just like it's it's funny because 249 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: I'll meet people who read my blog and I just 250 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: I feel bad because I think they expect me to 251 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 3: be a guru or something, and like I am, I 252 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 3: am not. I am looking for these answers for the 253 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 3: same reasons other people are I. You know, it's like 254 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: that's why I started. You don't build an Iron Man 255 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: suit because you're invulnerable. You build an Iron Man's suit 256 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 3: because you're not invulnerable. And you know, I started down 257 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: this journey because I have trouble with these things. But 258 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: I have to say that, you know, as cliche as 259 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: it may sound, pausing, stopping whatever the heck crazy thing 260 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 3: my circus brain is doing and just thinking about the 261 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 3: good stuff in my life and feeling gratitude like it 262 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: is an enormous perspective shift, and that I mean, your 263 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: mileage may vary, but you know, the study show it's 264 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: it is one of the single most powerful things you 265 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 3: can do. And for me, that perspective shift is enormous 266 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: because I am the type who will just go on 267 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: to the no, this is good, this is done, great, Okay, good. 268 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 3: We want to know about prize. That's nice. What's next? 269 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: You know, like I won't really like appreciate like a 270 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: lot of things. And and it's it's crazy, it's great, 271 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: Like your gratitude is so powerful simply because we spend 272 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 3: so much time trying to do things to be happier 273 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: that oh, I have to get this. I have to 274 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 3: accomplish that. I have to you know, you have to 275 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: like reach out and to gratitude doesn't cost anything. It 276 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: think costs a damn thing. You just have to All 277 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 3: you have to do is change your perspective. And it's 278 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: right there waiting. You just have to just put a 279 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 3: different lens on it, you know. And just you know, 280 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: I had some internet trouble today, you know, driving me 281 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: crazy this morning. You know what, it could have been 282 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: so much worse, you know, it just it resolved itself 283 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: in the end. Didn't have to you know, it didn't 284 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: have to go buy a new cable modem, didn't have 285 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 3: to have a repairman. It's like it could have been 286 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 3: so much worse. I am thankful that it did not. 287 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: It was not worse. And just taking a moment to 288 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: switch that perspective, it's all you have to do. It's free, 289 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: it's right there waiting, and trust me, I forget to 290 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: do it at least as much as anybody else does. 291 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: But it really works, definitely, And your latest book is 292 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: Cold plays well with others and it's awesome. 293 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: I would expect nothing. 294 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: Less, though, and it's hilarious, like all your writing. I'm 295 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: so curious about, particularly business writers that use humor, because 296 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: sadly it is rare, and I think it was a 297 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: couple of years back, I got to speak to Naomi Bagdonis, 298 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: who was one of the co authors of Humor Seriously, 299 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: and it was really interesting hearing her process for making 300 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: Humor Seriously funny, and that would have been like quite 301 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: odd if it wasn't. But you're writing, like I'll laugh 302 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: out loud when I'm reading your newsletter, which I've subscribed 303 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: to for many years. How was your process for building 304 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: so much humor into your writing? Like I want to know, 305 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: does it come naturally or are there kind of tricks 306 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: and formulas and things that you're consciously using. 307 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: So happy you asked this question nobody, but I get 308 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: a lot of compliments in the Humor, but nobody ever 309 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: asked me about the process regarding it. And I mean, 310 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: you know, I was a screenwriter in Hollywood for ten 311 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 3: years before I ever started blogging or stuff like that, 312 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: and so like, you know, like writing comedy was something 313 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: that I worked on assiduously for a long time. More specific, 314 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 3: more specific to what you said, like, is this you know, 315 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 3: like come to this coum naturally or is it like 316 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 3: really hard? The answer is both. I mean, like very often, 317 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: you know, very often, like my first perspective will be 318 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: to like, rather than just stating something plainly or just 319 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 3: like what did I see in the book here, I'll 320 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 3: ask myself, like, Eric, what's your perspective on this? Because 321 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 3: I know whatever crazy thing comes out of like my brain, 322 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: like I'll just be okay, Like there is an aspect 323 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: of me saying like, oh okay, like what should I 324 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 3: not be saying now? And I will and it'll just 325 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: be like thank God for everything. But there's a part 326 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 3: of it that's natural. But there's also part of it 327 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: where you know, I'm always looking for different perspectives. I'm 328 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 3: always looking at, you know, just different ways of seeing things. 329 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 3: And sometimes you know, jokes are funny lines and stuff 330 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 3: will occur to me and I'll keep a list, you know, 331 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 3: And I'll also keep like words, thoughts, ideas, metaphors, like 332 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 3: funny things that occur to me where I'm like, oh 333 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: that's a and I have, you know, much my process list. 334 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 3: I also have my joke list and it is obscenely long, 335 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 3: and I will just go through it and I'll just start. 336 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: I keep a lot of lists like that, like for 337 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 3: both of my books. I have a lot of illustrated 338 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 3: stories there to like try and just you know, make 339 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 3: clear on a more visceral level, like the what the 340 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 3: research is conveying and those stories. You know. I'll just 341 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 3: be reading articles, I'll be reading books. I'll come across 342 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 3: something and make a note, and then when it's book time, Oh, 343 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: get out the story list and let's go to town. And 344 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 3: so there is an aspect that for all humor that 345 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 3: is very spontaneous for me. And then there is a 346 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 3: time where I will literally, like a sitcom writer, I 347 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 3: will look at a blog poster, I'll look at a 348 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 3: section in my book and I will look at it 349 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 3: much like a like like a like a showrunner on 350 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 3: a sitcom. I'll just be like, its two jokes per page. 351 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 3: I don't know, we got to bring that up a 352 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 3: little bit. Let's say, oh, three jokes per page? Doing 353 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: good here? Like I will say, you know, not really there? 354 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 3: Or is there another way to get this across, you know, 355 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 3: or like just something where because I find it makes 356 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 3: such a difference. It makes such a difference, Like if 357 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 3: people wanted to just read completely straight up research, they 358 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: could do that. It's out there. People don't want to. 359 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: It's like, you want something accessible, you want something fun. 360 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: And that's how I see. I don't have a p 361 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 3: I got. I have a PhD from the University of nowhere. 362 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 3: You know. It's like for me, it's I'm a translator. 363 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 3: Like I take the stuff and I try and you know, 364 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 3: add add a little bit of sugar and make the 365 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 3: medicine go down, Like, try and make it accessible, try 366 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 3: and make a fun, try and make it human. And 367 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 3: how I keep trying. 368 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: How do you know if it's going to land? 369 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: I remember in your acknowledgement section, and your acknowledgement section 370 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: is funny, my god, Like literally every part of the 371 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 2: book is funny. There was this great quote and if 372 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 2: I was an organized podcas host, I would actually have 373 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: my iPad sitting next to me, which is where your 374 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 2: book is stored that has the actual quote, but it's 375 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 2: something like like oh no, you can, you do you 376 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: have it in front of you. It's the one about 377 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: like writing a joke and not knowing if it lands 378 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: for two years. 379 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: Writing a book is like telling a joke and having 380 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 3: to wait two years to find out if it was funny. 381 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I love that quote, and like for you, 382 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: how do you know if it's going to land? 383 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: If all these jokes are going to land? 384 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 3: I mean, the thing is that my writing process is bonkers, 385 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 3: like like and it's not bonkers because it's like, oh, 386 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 3: I am an artiste and I'm like, you know, no, 387 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: I am like like a machine. Like most almost every 388 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 3: rater I know does like a vombit draft where they 389 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: just kind of like, you know, because most people are 390 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 3: much more comfortable editing than they are creating. Most people 391 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 3: are much more comfortable, you know, even if they like 392 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: have to knock out this like very mediocre initial draft, 393 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 3: but then they have something to hang things on to 394 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: build from. They've got a foundation. Most people are much 395 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 3: more comfortable with that. But I don't like that that 396 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: like to me, I take I take more of an 397 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 3: architecture perspective where you would never be like, hey, let's 398 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 3: build a crappy building and then we'll knock it down 399 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 3: and then we'll build a good one. Like you would 400 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: never do that, you know. It's like what you do 401 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: in architecture is you have blueprints and you rigorously to 402 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 3: the millimeter, you know, just figure out, okay, this and 403 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 3: the screws need to be this long. We need this 404 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 3: for the you know, for the for the water line, 405 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: the power line. And so my outlines are longer, often 406 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 3: much longer than the book itself. And like I am constantly, 407 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: like you know, outlining and outlining and outlining and so 408 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 3: so my first drafts are not really first drafts. They're 409 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 3: more like third or fourth drafts. You know, they're like 410 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: ninety percent of the way they are, But it takes 411 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 3: me forever, like months till there's pages, and then like 412 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: in a handful of days, boom there's all these pages. 413 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: And people are like, how long do they take to right, 414 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 3: there's pages? And I'm like, oh, three days. No, it's 415 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: not to me. Four months of outlining, you know. But 416 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 3: like so for me, it's really about that outline and 417 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 3: going this happens and this happens, and this happened, and 418 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 3: I've gone over it so many times, you know, in 419 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 3: that outlining prost because it's not this organic type of ty, 420 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: type of ty, type of the type tip type, and 421 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 3: then edit, edit it. Like for me, my my first 422 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 3: drafts are very close to the finished product because I've 423 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 3: spent so much time going to this goes first, Okay, 424 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 3: this goes before that? No way, Okay, what's going to 425 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 3: segue from this to this? It's for me, it's like 426 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 3: Tetris and like, I take so long agonizing over that 427 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: that it gives me a pretty good idea of what 428 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: will work and what won't. And yeah, it's it's mostly 429 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: in the outlining. And then I have a good friend 430 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 3: who is far, far, far more risk averse than I am, 431 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 3: and he will read it and he will say, oh 432 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 3: my god, you can't say that. And fifty percent of 433 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: the time I'll listen to him, and fifty percent of 434 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 3: the time I'll go, well, hey, probably just lost another 435 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 3: one hundred email subscribers. 436 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: Well, we will be back soon with Eric talking about 437 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: the strategies he uses to deliberately deepen relationships in his 438 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: life and also how to get better at reading other people. 439 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 440 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: that you work. I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 441 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 2: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 442 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 2: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 443 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: through to interesting research findings. You can sign up for 444 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 2: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I Work dot co. Now, 445 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: your book is all about really connecting with others and 446 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: friendships and relationships, and you know, there's a whole section 447 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: on making friends, which is a topic as an adult 448 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: that I'm really interested in because, like, it's easy to 449 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: make friends, fairly easy when you're at school or you're 450 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: at university, and maybe in the work place, but you 451 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: know a lot of us don't even work in an 452 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: office now. So I'd love to know how you've applied 453 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: what you learnt in researching and writing your latest book 454 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: around making friends as an adult. 455 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: I mean, it was funny because the well morbid funny, 456 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: I guess. But this deal from my book closed February 457 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 3: twenty eighth, twenty twenty and two weeks after the deal 458 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 3: from my book closed, like California where I live completely lockdown, 459 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 3: and so I had already done the proposal. I was 460 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 3: set on reading a walk about relationships. But two weeks 461 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: after I closed the deal was around to go, all 462 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 3: of a sudden, it took on an entirely new meaning. 463 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: It was just like, oh, this is the next thing. Next, 464 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: it was the next book I'm writing about. It's like, 465 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 3: oh my god, people are going to need this. I mean, 466 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 3: I know I need this, My friends know I need this, 467 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 3: my ex girlfriends know I need this. Uh, but like 468 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: you know, I mean I'm like, wow, people are really 469 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 3: going to need this. And so like it became this 470 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 3: really important thing to me. And you know, making friends 471 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 3: when you're an adult is really hard, and we don't 472 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 3: like to talk about it, you know, we I think 473 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 3: we don't like to discuss just how difficult. Like you said, 474 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: like when you're a kid, it's kind of default. You know, 475 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 3: you start school and it's like hey, there you are, 476 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: and you know, work to a degree. But as an adult, 477 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 3: you know, as I've write in the book, it's like, 478 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: you know, usually it's around people when people get married. 479 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: Usually they get married, you gather all your friends together 480 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: and they prompably never see them again. You know. It's 481 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 3: like that's really tricky and it's really tough. 482 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: You know. 483 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 3: For me, personally, I'm lucky that I have some really, 484 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 3: some really good friends, and I have not given that. 485 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: I was, you know, crazed writing a book and now 486 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 3: you know, crazy promoting a book. What's really been good 487 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 3: for me is that this has given me like kind 488 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 3: of a natural, organic reason to start reaching out to 489 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 3: a lot of people, you know, And so I was 490 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 3: going to have to contact people anyway. And now I 491 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 3: maybe I'm not making as many new friends. But for me, 492 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 3: it's about there are some relationships that went dormant. There's 493 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: some people I didn't connect with during the pandemic, and 494 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 3: there's some great friendships that I want to sustain. And 495 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 3: I've been putting a lot of energy into that because 496 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: in the in the book, you know, I do mention, 497 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 3: you know, like the Dale Carnegie stuff about like making 498 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 3: new friends. But you know, for me, it's really about 499 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: deepening friendships. It's about getting those friends that really matter. 500 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 3: As Aristotle called friends, he said that they were another self. 501 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: And you know, after two thousand years, science got around 502 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 3: to proving him right. You know, It's that's what I'm missing, 503 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: you know, I I'm I'm not necessarily in the market 504 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 3: for new acquaintances, but like having strong, reliable friends I 505 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 3: can trust, you know, I don't know a lot of 506 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 3: other things. The past few years, including the pandemic, have 507 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: told me how important it is to just have those deep, 508 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 3: meaningful relationships. And that's that's what I find myself really 509 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 3: working on. 510 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: What strategies have you used to deliberately help deepen relationships? 511 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 3: I mean, the two key ones I talk about in 512 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 3: the book, like really do the trick for me? And 513 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 3: you know, because Dale Carnegie talks about the easy stuff. 514 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 3: That's why we like the book because his stuff is 515 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 3: easy to do, but it's really only good for the 516 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 3: beginning of relationships. To deepen relationships, we need to send 517 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 3: what economics refers to as costly signals, you know, and 518 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 3: they're costly because they you know, by being costly, they're 519 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 3: hard to replicate that and that tells you that they're meaningful. 520 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: And those two costly signals when it comes to friendship 521 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 3: are time and vulnerability. You know, time is costly because 522 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 3: it's scarce. You know, if I if I talk to 523 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 3: someone for an hour every day, I can only do 524 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 3: that for twenty four people. End a story the end, 525 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 3: that's it, thank you for calling. You know, they're say 526 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 3: I do need to sleep, So like that's a costly 527 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 3: signal when you routinely give people your time. And second 528 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 3: is vulnerability is you know, the quickest way that we 529 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: can build trust with others is to show them our 530 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 3: own trust. And if we tell people something that is personal, 531 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 3: something that scares us, something that might make us look bad, 532 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 3: if we trust somebody with that, you know, that says 533 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 3: I'm trusting you, and most likely, very often good friends 534 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 3: will reciprocate. And that's how you deepen friendships. That's what 535 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 3: Arthur Aaron, It's Donybrook University found. There's research by Jeff 536 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: Hall that shows just how long it takes dozens or 537 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: hundreds of hours to build good friendships. But Arthur Aron 538 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: was able to make people feel like lifelong friends in 539 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 3: forty five minutes. And he did it by having people 540 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: be vulnerable, by having people open up, say the things 541 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: that are scary, say the things they're feeling. And we've 542 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: got a good reason to now all been through some scary, 543 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 3: difficult emotional stuff with the pandemic, so we should we 544 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 3: should take this this opportunity to do it and that's 545 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: what I've been doing, is I've been I've been more. Hey, 546 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: I got my five hour countdown for my writing, you know, 547 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: and I try to make sure to make time for 548 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 3: my friends, you know, in the same in the same way, 549 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 3: like evenings are set aside in you know, for that 550 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 3: vulnerability I as I right about in the book, I 551 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 3: now follow the scary rule. Uh, if it's scary, I 552 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 3: say it. And uh, you know, I do, say, be incremental, 553 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 3: don't confess any murders at Christmas dinner. But like it's 554 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 3: it's you know, be incremental. But but uh, you know, 555 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 3: I've I've I've I've played the distant, tough guy for 556 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: many years and frankly, that didn't work out too well 557 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: for me. So, you know, opening up and being a 558 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 3: little more honest about what I'm dealing with. I find 559 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 3: it's a good litmus test. I find it's a really 560 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 3: good litmus test because if people react well to it, 561 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: they're probably a good friend. Then if they don't react 562 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: well to it, well, I just learned something. 563 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: You talk about quite quite a lot of research in 564 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 2: the book around how people are surprisingly bad at reading 565 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: other people. And I'm curious, after knowing all that research 566 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: and writing about it in the book, How have you 567 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: become better? 568 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: I guess reading other people, knowing what's going on in 569 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: their minds. 570 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 3: Well, we're doing a podcast right now, and you know, 571 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 3: one of the big big things I point out there 572 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 3: is that deliberately attempting to read body language is you know, 573 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 3: it's false. God really doesn't work out that well. But 574 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 3: the voice is very telling. You know, if you can 575 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 3: hear someone but you can't see them, empathic accuracy only 576 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 3: drops off about four percent. But if you can see 577 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: someone you can't hear them, empathic accuracy drops off fifty 578 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 3: four percent. So the voice is really what's telling us versus, Oh, 579 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: we moved his eyebrow. That means he's nervous. It's like no, no, 580 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 3: like it's all of that. You know, you never know 581 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 3: if somebody's shivering because they're nervous, because they're cold, like, 582 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 3: you can't be sure, and especially with strangers, we don't 583 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: have a baseline. You know, it's much more about the voice, 584 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 3: and it's much more about you know, outside influences, bringing 585 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: other people into the mix, putting people in new environments, 586 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 3: you know, saying provocative things like those are the things 587 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 3: that really gives us because our reading ability for others, 588 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 3: nobody's going to be Sherlock Holmes. You know, it's it's 589 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: way too hard to passively read others. But what we 590 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 3: can do is strategically make others more readable. What we 591 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 3: can do as well, is we can increase motivation. You know, 592 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 3: if we're focused, if we see some gainer reward, people 593 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 3: are much better at reading others on a first date 594 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: because again, there's something to gain. So if we can 595 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: put ourselves in that mindset of like, you know, having 596 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 3: something to gain or lose, get focused, that can help. 597 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 3: But in the end, the game is really one by 598 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 3: making others more readable, not by trying to improve our 599 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 3: very poor reading skills. 600 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: Now, this is probably like asking you to choose your 601 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: favorite child. 602 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: But are there like one. 603 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: Or two kind of top things that you learned in 604 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: the book that have really changed you know, how you see, 605 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: or how you think about or how you do you know, 606 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: relationships and human connection. 607 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 3: Now, the one thing you know that that was very 608 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: insightful to me and I think very useful to other 609 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 3: people coming out of the pandemic is that there was 610 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 3: there's work I talk about by fail Bertie, who's a 611 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 3: historian at the University of York, and she basically said 612 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 3: that before the nineteenth century, loneliness, both as a topical 613 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 3: word and pretty much an experience, pretty much didn't exist. 614 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: Now that sounds categorically and scene, but she goes through 615 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 3: and you can find the word lonely in books, but 616 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 3: what it means is something that is by itself. It 617 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 3: doesn't have the negative emotional connotation that we add to it. 618 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: And it was only in the nineteenth century when we 619 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 3: had the rise of individualism, a lot of isms, you know, capitalism, existentialism, 620 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: all these you know, much more individualistic society because before 621 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 3: the nineteenth century, people felt like they were a part 622 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 3: of a religion, they're part of a nation, part of 623 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: a tribe, part of a family, part of a group. 624 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 3: Like we were very much in meshed and embedded, you know, 625 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 3: in these groups. And it was just interesting because it 626 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 3: tied in with a lot of very modern research on 627 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 3: loneliness where John Cacioppo, who's the leading leading researcher on loneliness, 628 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 3: he found that lonely people don't spend any less time 629 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 3: with other people than non lonely people do. Again, another 630 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 3: thing that sounds categorically insane. Yet we've all felt lonely 631 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 3: in a crowd, and that tells you right there that 632 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: just having people like having people around you is great. 633 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: But just having people around you, that's not enough to 634 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 3: cure loneliness. You can still feel lonely in a crowd, 635 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: and that's because loneliness is a subjective experience. Loneliness is 636 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 3: how you. Loneliness is not mere isolation, because solitude, solitude 637 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 3: is being alone. In solitude we regard as a positive. Solitude, 638 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 3: you know, is really strongly tied with creativity, while loneliness 639 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 3: is correlated with pretty much every negative health metric you 640 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 3: can imagine. Solitude. According to VIVEC. Murthy, the Surgeon General 641 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 3: of the United States, solitude is you know, a very 642 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 3: very positive for you. So being alone it's not about 643 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 3: being alone. Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships. 644 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 3: And if you feel good about your relationships, then being 645 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 3: by yourself is solitude, And if you feel negative or 646 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 3: bad or concerned about your relationships, then being alone is loneliness. 647 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 3: And the fact that that difference is a mere perspective shift, 648 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 3: and it can be a big one to change if 649 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 3: or harmed by it. But that it's a perspective shift 650 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: that is really changed something for me because if I 651 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 3: start to feel lonely, you know, sure I can spend 652 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 3: more time with other people, but to me, that's a 653 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 3: canary in the coal mine. To me, that makes me say, Okay, 654 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 3: how am I feeling about my relationships and what do 655 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 3: I need to do to address that? How can I 656 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 3: change that feeling. Sure I can spend more time with 657 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 3: other people, but again the lonely in the crowd issue, 658 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 3: So I need to make sure that I feel I'm 659 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 3: a part of something, not be a part of something 660 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 3: on paper, not letter of the law, spirit of law. 661 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 3: Like what do I have to do? What do I 662 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 3: have to contribute? What do I have to add to? How? 663 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 3: Where can I feel responsible? Where can I feel necessary? 664 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 3: Where can I feel that like you know, I'm adding 665 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 3: something and that if I wasn't there, people would miss 666 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 3: me and people would miss my contribution. How can I 667 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 3: add to that to that group, that community. So that's 668 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 3: been a really powerful insight for me and how I 669 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 3: think about my relationships is whether I feel solitude or loneliness, 670 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: especially being a very introverted guy. That has been a 671 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 3: really powerful insight from the book in terms of what 672 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,479 Speaker 3: next steps I take relationship wise. 673 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: I love that. 674 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 2: I found that very powerful in the book when when 675 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 2: I read that as well, also being someone that is 676 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 2: quite introverted. Now, Eric, I don't know where time is gone, 677 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: but it has gone. And I would love to note 678 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 2: for people that want to connect with you and read 679 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 2: your brilliant, brilliant newsletter which I just whole whole, wholeheartedly recommend. 680 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: I've been subscribing for years and I love it, and 681 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: also get their hands on plays well with others? 682 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 3: How do they do that plays well with others? Is 683 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 3: available on Amazon and what a Barnes Noble whatever bookseller 684 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 3: should be out there. My first book is Parking Up 685 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 3: Throwing Tree. My website has a very difficult to pronounce URL. 686 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,959 Speaker 3: It's Japanese. It's a Japanese inside joke. I wasn't exact 687 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: thinking like good marketing when I came up with the 688 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 3: name for my r L not. I didn't expect it 689 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 3: to become what it did. Then maybe I would have 690 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 3: would have given that. Anyway, you can either google my name, 691 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 3: Eric Barker, or if you go to Eric Barker dot 692 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 3: org E R I C B R KR dot org. 693 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 3: That will redirect you to my blog with its very 694 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 3: unique r L. 695 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: We will link to all that in the show notes. 696 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 2: Eric, thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the 697 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 2: time to have a chat. I had high expectations, even 698 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 2: though you told me to have very low expectations. You've 699 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 2: exceeded lower expectations and you've acceited my high expectations. 700 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: So it's been an absolute pleasure. 701 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: Please keep writing more and more things that make me 702 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 2: laugh and make me smarter and have a more awesome life. 703 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: So thank you so much. 704 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 3: Thank you. This has been great. 705 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 2: I loved Eric's five our time as strategy. That really 706 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 2: was the thing that stuck with me from this interview. 707 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 2: It's definitely something that I'm planning on trying this week 708 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 2: in my own life, partly as an experiment to see 709 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: how much deep work I actually get done in a day, 710 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 2: but also to be disciplined in stopping it when I'm 711 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: doing shallow or less valuable work. Now, if you are 712 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: not a subscriber or follower of how I work, now 713 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: might be the time to hit that button, because next 714 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 2: week I have got Matt Jones, who is the co 715 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 2: founder of four Pillars Gin, which perhaps you've sampled, talking 716 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: about how he and his two other co founders created 717 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: what is thought to be the best gin in the 718 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 2: world in less than a decade. How I Work is 719 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 2: produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 720 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank 721 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 2: you to Matt Nimba who does the audio mix for 722 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 2: every episode and makes everything sound so much better than 723 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 2: it would have otherwise. 724 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: See you next time.