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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the Parenting co host

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Speaker 2: Parenting co host, the co host of.

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Speaker 1: The Parenting TV.

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Speaker 2: It showed Parental Guidance Season two coming soon. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. Kylie Holidays, the.

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Speaker 3: Co hostess with the mostess.

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Speaker 2: The summer holidays are not treating as well. I think

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Speaker 2: we've both got some sunstroke and we should just stick

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Speaker 2: with what we do, and we need to hire a scriptwriter.

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Speaker 2: That's what we need. We need a scriptwriter, Kylie. Summer

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Speaker 2: holidays usually means sleepovers. Sleepovers are parents, grandparents, Artie's, uncles, cousins, friends,

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Speaker 2: There's free time, kids staying up late, swinging in the

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Speaker 2: pool or going to the park, riding their bikes in

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Speaker 2: the street, playing backyard cricket, having so much fun.

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Speaker 1: But sleepovers can be.

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Speaker 3: A really tricky topic for parents.

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Speaker 2: We received an email from somebody via podcasts at Happy

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Speaker 2: families dot com dot you somebody will to know what

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Speaker 2: do you do about sleepovers, especially during the summer holidays,

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Speaker 2: Christmas holidays. We've got all these family friends, kids, wanted

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Speaker 2: to catch up with their friends from school, neighborhoods, camping

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Speaker 2: stuff in the backyard.

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Speaker 1: What do we do? How do we get this right?

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Speaker 1: A sleepovers okay or not?

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Speaker 2: Over the last few years, there's been a lot of

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Speaker 2: noise made on mummy blogs, on Instagram and social media

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Speaker 2: about why so many parents are saying no, kids cannot

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Speaker 2: have sleepovers, not going to let it happen. The risks

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Speaker 2: are too high, the rewards are essentially not worth the risk, not.

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Speaker 1: Going to do it.

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Speaker 2: Our approach, Kylie, has not necessarily been that, but at

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Speaker 2: the outset, before we even begin this conversation, I want

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Speaker 2: to highlight this is a hard one to respond to

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Speaker 2: from a science based perspective, so as a scientist.

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Speaker 1: I always want to know what are the studies show.

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Speaker 2: There's not really much research out there about kids and sleepovers.

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Speaker 2: Research does show that there is risk associated with sleepovers,

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Speaker 2: but for most of us who have lived through childhood

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Speaker 2: and had the experience, we know that so long as.

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Speaker 1: It's safe, it's cool, it's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you eat too much sugar, Yes you stay up

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Speaker 2: way too late, Yes you are right off the next day,

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Speaker 2: and your parents wonder if they'll ever let you do

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Speaker 2: it again. But it's so much fun to hang out

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Speaker 2: with your friends late at night. And so we're going

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Speaker 2: to kind of try to thread this needle and talk

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Speaker 2: about the pros and cons the risks and rewards of

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Speaker 2: sleepovers for kids at any age.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think if we start at the really high end,

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Speaker 3: the high end, the high end of the disasters that

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Speaker 3: could possibly happen, right, there are definitely some safety concerns, yes,

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Speaker 3: without doubt, that you would want to alay before you

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Speaker 3: would make a decision to let your child have a sleepover.

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Speaker 2: And I will never ever minimize those concerns. And for

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Speaker 2: those who have been affected because of those concerns, not

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Speaker 2: being satisfied, devastating tragedy casts the longest shadow through the

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Speaker 2: lives of people who have been affected.

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Speaker 1: There.

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Speaker 2: So the research does tell us that kids are most

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Speaker 2: likely to be harmed by people known to them, and

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Speaker 2: the younger they are, the greater the risk. So I

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Speaker 2: think in harmony with yesterday's conversation about kids and alcohol,

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Speaker 2: and that there was one key word that was the

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Speaker 2: very heart of our discussion.

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Speaker 3: But delay, delay, delay, hold off.

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Speaker 2: And I think that there's some real wisdom there when

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Speaker 2: it comes to kids in sleepovers, especially sleepovers with friends. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you've got family members that you know are safe,

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Speaker 2: whether it's grandma and grandpa or the auntie and uncle

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Speaker 2: because they're going to catch up with their cousins, you

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Speaker 2: obviously assess that as you need to, and you want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that there's appropriate mixes of a lack

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Speaker 2: of a mix perhaps of genders. You want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that there's appropriate supervision, appropriate sleeping arrangements.

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Speaker 3: But the and in our experience with the younger kids

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Speaker 3: actually being easier if Nan and Pop or Auntie and

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Speaker 3: uncle can actually come.

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Speaker 2: Under our house, baby, see, we have a night off.

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Speaker 3: And have a sleepover at our house. Kids are in

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Speaker 3: the same home like environment, the safety and security and

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Speaker 3: that their own bed and Nan and Pop can kind

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Speaker 3: of fall into the routine of the family as opposed

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Speaker 3: to everything being turned up.

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Speaker 2: But it still feels like a sleepover because they're being

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Speaker 2: looked after by someone different. Right, Yeah, But I think

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Speaker 2: in terms of advice, in terms of the conversation around this,

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Speaker 2: so long as you know that the adults who are

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Speaker 2: in charge are safe and that there are no other

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Speaker 2: adults coming in that you don't know because that's a

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Speaker 2: real risk.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: You might send the kids off to someone's house for

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Speaker 2: a sleepover, even a relative's house, but they have a visitor,

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Speaker 2: either from down the road or from overseas or a

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Speaker 2: family member, whoever it is. You don't know them, you

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Speaker 2: don't know what their history is. We want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that our kids are safe at all times.

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Speaker 1: We need to know who's going to be there.

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Speaker 2: And that also raises questions with young kids, even with family,

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Speaker 2: should there be a bedtime, what's going to be the

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Speaker 2: rule around screens? What kind of content and programming will

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Speaker 2: the children be allowed to watch? If there are going

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Speaker 2: to be movies that are viewed. I mean we've kind

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Speaker 2: of we've had our kids invited to sleepovers from the

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Speaker 2: age of six or seven with school parties, and our

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Speaker 2: general response has been, you know what, we'll just pick

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Speaker 2: them up at nine o'clock or ten o'clock. Once it's

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Speaker 2: late and they feel like they've had a great time,

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Speaker 2: we'll pick them up and we'll drop them back the

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Speaker 2: next morning.

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Speaker 3: And obviously, at that age at nine o'clock or ten

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Speaker 3: o'clock bedtime is way beyond what we would normally allow.

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Speaker 3: So we're meeting them halfway, we're saying, no, we're not

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Speaker 3: really comfortable with you having the sleepover, but you can

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Speaker 3: have a late night, you can spend time with your friends,

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Speaker 3: stay up late each your chocolate and ice cream Sundays,

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Speaker 3: or whatever it is you going to do, but we're

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Speaker 3: going to have you home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I think the advice that we're sharing here is

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Speaker 2: really helpful for kids. I'm going to say under about

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Speaker 2: the age of ten, maybe even eleven or twelve. It

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Speaker 2: just depends on you and your family. When it comes

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Speaker 2: to family, grandparents, auntie's, uncles, cousins, you want to know

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Speaker 2: where they're going to be sleeping, how they're going to

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Speaker 2: be safe, what programming, if any, and screens they're going

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Speaker 2: to have access to. And essentially you're looking after it

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Speaker 2: from a family point of view by having those conversations

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Speaker 2: with your parents or your siblings who are looking after them,

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Speaker 2: so they can have time with their cousins. When it

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Speaker 2: comes to friends, our strong preference is the kids get

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Speaker 2: dropped off but then they get picked up, rather than

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Speaker 2: having a sleepover until they're a lot older.

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Speaker 1: And that's just.

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Speaker 2: Because the older they are, the more of a voice

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Speaker 2: they've got, the more they understand things like consent.

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Speaker 1: They know what's right and wrong.

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Speaker 2: Younger children, they're just more vulnerable, and therefore they think

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Speaker 2: they need a high level of oversight, a high level.

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Speaker 1: Of parental involvement.

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Speaker 2: As kids get older, though, the challenges shift, they become

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Speaker 2: potentially a little bit more complex.

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Speaker 1: We start to.

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Speaker 2: Deal with issues of screens and phones, cyberbullying, being on

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Speaker 2: social media, the potential for sending images that may or

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Speaker 2: may not be completely appropriate speaking ouse, Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 2: hadn't thought of that one, and then picking up on

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Speaker 2: yesterday's conversation. By the time they're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, or

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Speaker 2: maybe even a little bit younger, depending on the kids

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Speaker 2: and the family and the environment, maybe even fourteen or fifteen.

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Speaker 1: There's also the issue of alcohol and other drugs. So

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Speaker 1: I think at this point.

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Speaker 3: We've talked about all the big things. But the reality is,

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Speaker 3: when you get a bunch of kids together and there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of sugar and a lack of sleep, you've

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Speaker 3: also just got the emotional relational challenges that come with

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Speaker 3: everybody being together.

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Speaker 1: Your kids can kind of get nasty, can't they Well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you get that angry, hungry You.

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Speaker 1: Know what else? They do that. They do really dumb things.

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Speaker 2: Now this is kind of harmless, but I remember one

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Speaker 2: sleepover at my house. So my mom used to go

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Speaker 2: shopping and she would buy stuff in bulk. I guess

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Speaker 2: it's kind of a little bit like what's the name

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Speaker 2: of the like Costco. You know how you can buy

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Speaker 2: stuff in bulk. So Mum would Mum would go shopping

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Speaker 2: and we had to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Over one night. I reckon. It was about eleven o'clock

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Speaker 1: at night.

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Speaker 2: We were all still awake, and one of the guys

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'm really hungry. So we opened up

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Speaker 2: the pantry and in our house we actually had like

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Speaker 2: a walk in pantry.

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Speaker 1: It was quite quite sizable.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how this happened, but one of the

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Speaker 2: guys saw out a two liter bottle of chocolate topping,

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Speaker 2: two leaders of chocolate topping on one of the shelves.

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Speaker 1: His name was Aaron, and Aaron's like, oh, chocolate topping.

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Speaker 1: We should do a milk milkshake.

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Speaker 2: And somehow one of the guys said, hey, a d

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Speaker 2: to drink the chocolate topping, and we all said we'd

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Speaker 2: pay him five bucks if you could drink the top

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Speaker 2: chocolate topping. So he tried to drink two lids. He

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Speaker 2: just literally put the bottle to.

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Speaker 1: His mouth and started sculling.

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Speaker 2: This chocolate topping like Coddies, thick and rich. I cannot

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Speaker 2: imagine how much sugar went into his I reckon, you

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Speaker 2: drank about a leader of it, just pure.

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming it didn't stay down for long.

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Speaker 2: He kept it in but yeah, yeah, yeah, but every

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Speaker 2: time he burked, the whole room smelled like chocolate. It

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Speaker 2: was disgusting. Was like, So there's there's also just the

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Speaker 2: dumb things. I mean, I don't know if I was.

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Speaker 3: The victim of a peanut butter face really.

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Speaker 2: Yes, of course.

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Speaker 3: One of my sleepovers, I was always the one to

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Speaker 3: fall asleep before everybody else.

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Speaker 2: And we used to do the shaving cream, put the

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Speaker 2: shaving cream on their face and they and then tickle

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Speaker 2: them and they'd slap their face and put shaving cream

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Speaker 2: every I don't know if you did that one. So

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Speaker 2: someone painted your face with peanut buttons.

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Speaker 1: They did, that's brilliant.

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Speaker 3: They did. Stuck my hand and water hoping that I'd

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Speaker 3: wet my bed.

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Speaker 2: We did noody runs. That's a boy think skinny dipping,

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Speaker 2: skinny dipping. Yeah, so there's all those kinds of things

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Speaker 2: as well. And in the age of social media and

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Speaker 2: telephones and cameras everywhere, some of those things which we

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Speaker 2: would look back to the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, nineteen

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Speaker 2: nineties as harmless fun in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: three not quite so harmless, could actually get you in

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of trouble because the world's changed and

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Speaker 2: there are cameras everywhere. So I think, well, we want

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Speaker 2: to delay sleepovers. We need to highlight that there are risks.

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Speaker 2: And really what this comes down to is talk to

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Speaker 2: your kids, just say, I know you want to have

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Speaker 2: the sleepover. I know it's going to be really fun,

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Speaker 2: but what are you going to do to stay safe?

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Speaker 2: What are you going to do if the boys or

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Speaker 2: the girls, or whoever is hanging out with start looking

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Speaker 2: at imagery that is explicit and vulgar and coarse and inappropriate,

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Speaker 2: How are you going to deal with that? Or what

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Speaker 2: happens if someone wants to play truth or dare and

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Speaker 2: you find yourself in a situation where you're feeling pressured

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Speaker 2: to behave in ways that are inconsistent with what we've

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Speaker 2: taught you. Having those conversations. I guess giving them a

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Speaker 2: dry run before they get there can be super important

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Speaker 2: for keeping them safe and actually facilitating their ability to

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Speaker 2: have a good time.

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Speaker 3: This reminds me of the conversation we had recently about

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Speaker 3: introducing mobile phones to our kids.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was last Monday.

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Speaker 3: And while the research there isn't a lot of research

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Speaker 3: around sleepovers, I'm going to suggest that this is going

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Speaker 3: to be a conversation similar to mobile phones. I think

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Speaker 3: that parents are pretty conscientious and making decisions to help

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Speaker 3: keep their children safe, and so there isn't going to

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Speaker 3: be a arbitrary age that we say this. This is

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Speaker 3: you know, okay, this is great. It really is going

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Speaker 3: to come down to each individual family's needs and children

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Speaker 3: and who they are, their personalities and their developmental level

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Speaker 3: okay opposed to their age.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you a couple of quick questions,

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Speaker 2: just yes or no. Number one, should there be a

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Speaker 2: bed time for sleepovers?

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Speaker 3: Yes? One percent?

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Speaker 1: And what time should that be?

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Speaker 3: That's up to the individual family.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but I.

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Speaker 3: Think I think the reality is they're probably not going

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Speaker 3: to listen to you, but you can definitely have an expectation.

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Speaker 2: But when we've had sleepovers to our place. We've just

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Speaker 2: gone into the kids and said, you know what, guys,

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Speaker 2: it's bedtime. We're going to bed. We expect that you're

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Speaker 2: going to go to bed, but we're also not silly.

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Speaker 2: We know you're probably going to stay up. So if

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Speaker 2: you do, the expectation is number one, you stay quiet.

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Speaker 2: Number two, there are no screens, and number three you'd

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Speaker 2: be nice. And then we've kind of just gone to

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Speaker 2: bed because kids. Right, So there's there's that next question

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Speaker 2: for you. If you're dropping your kids off to a

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Speaker 2: friend's place for a sleep should you talk to other

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Speaker 2: parents about your your values, your expectations around the sleepover.

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Speaker 3: I would be having that common before I even drop

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Speaker 3: them off. For me, my number one rule is these

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Speaker 3: are people that I know well. These are people that

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Speaker 3: I've spent time with, and I've spent time with in

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Speaker 3: their home. We've had conversations around the kinds of things

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Speaker 3: that I allow my children to do already, and so

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Speaker 3: the conversation that I'm then having with them in the

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Speaker 3: lead up to a sleepover is just kind of reiterating,

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Speaker 3: just checking in. Kids said they're going to be watching

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Speaker 3: a movie tonight. Do you know what they're watching. We

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Speaker 3: don't let a children watch anything over a PG or

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Speaker 3: whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So last question for your sleepover is good idea

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Speaker 1: or bad idea?

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Speaker 3: Context matters? Okay, if I want to have a night

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Speaker 3: away with you, they're amazing, Right, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Going to say they're a great idea.

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Speaker 2: So long as you know the people, You've had good

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Speaker 2: conversations with your child, and your child knows that you

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Speaker 2: are available at any time under any circumstances if they're concerned, worried,

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Speaker 2: or need to come home, even if that means that

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Speaker 2: you've got to get in the car and drive across

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Speaker 2: town in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 3: I think for us, the biggest thing is just follow

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Speaker 3: your guart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nice one.

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Speaker 3: Nice you might you might know people well, but there's

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Speaker 3: there's just a neggle that you've got and you need

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Speaker 3: to go with it. Maybe you're wrong, but you'd rather

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Speaker 3: be wrong with this than wrong on the other end.

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Speaker 1: Yes, safety is everything.

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Speaker 2: Well, we really hope that this has been a helpful

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Speaker 2: conversation about sleepovers across summer. It's the Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 2: summer series with Justin and Kylee