1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: A very good morning to you, and welcome to the 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Daily OZ podcast. Today is Friday, the twenty fifth of March. 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm TDA journalist Tom Crowley, and with me, as always, 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: is Zara Seidler. I'm going to be talking to Zara 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: in a moment about the government's emissions reduction fund. Public 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: servant who worked on the fund says it's a fraud. 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: We'll tell you a bit more about what he said 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: and a bit more about what the minister told us 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: in response. But first Zara to today's headlines. 10 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: Yesterday, Tom, there was big news in the refugee space. 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: The Australian government announced that they had accepted an offer 12 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 2: from the New Zealand government to resettle one hundred and 13 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: fifty refugees from Australia's offshore detention system per year for 14 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 2: the next three years. Under this agreement, initial consideration will 15 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: be given to refugees who are in Naharu or temporarily 16 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: in Australia under what's called regional processing arrangements. Refugees won't 17 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: initially be considered if they are quote engaged in other 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: third country resettlement pathways, so that refers to agreements with 19 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: the US for exacts. 20 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: Yesterday, Victoria's Yurrok Justice Commission launched, becoming the first formal 21 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: truth telling process in Australia. The process will investigate the 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: injustices faced by First Nations individuals. Yuruk has the full 23 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: powers of a royal commission, allowing it to obtain documents 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: and witnesses. 25 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: The Taliban in Afghanistan has announced schoolgirls above year six 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: will not be allowed to return to school, despite saying 27 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: last week that all school students would be able to 28 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: return to classrooms. This policy reversal came hours after schools 29 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 2: opened for the first time in almost seven months. 30 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: And the good news the Federal government has announced that 31 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: almost half of the Kakadou National Park in the Northern 32 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: Territory will be returned to traditional owners. The announcement resolves 33 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: four separate land claims which cover ten thousand square kilometers 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: of the Kakadu National Park. 35 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: Tom yesterday, everybody was talking about a whistleblower. And it 36 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: wasn't Julian Assange, wasn't Edward Snowden. It was someone else 37 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: and his name is Professor Andrew McIntosh. He had something 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 2: to say about the Federal Government's emissions Reduction Fund and 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: Tom Before we get into what he actually said, take 40 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: the audience through what the Emissions Reduction Fund is for 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: and what it's meant to be doing. 42 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: We'll do Zara. Before I say that, I'll point out 43 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: it was a big day for whistleblowers yesterday, because'm pretty 44 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: sure Julian assan't got married. But I think that this 45 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: was definitely the bigger of the two whistleblower stories. It's 46 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: fair to say so. Professor Andrew McIntosh was talking about 47 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: the Emissions Reduction Fund. What is it? It was a 48 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: fund where it is a fund that pays people and 49 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: businesses to pollute less. So the idea is anybody who's 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: got a project to reduce emissions, they can bid for 51 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: a contract to basically get government funding. So they get 52 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: given a credit it's called an Australian Carbon Credit unit 53 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: for any emissions they reduced with this project, and they 54 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: can sell out and make money off it. So again 55 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: it's essentially this idea of pay people to pollute less. 56 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: And there's about four point five bill so a fair 57 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: bit of money that the Australian government has given to 58 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: the Clean Energy Regulator to issue these credits. So it's 59 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: a scheme that's been around for a few years and 60 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: Professor Andrew Macintosh worked on the scheme. He was the 61 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: chair of its Integrity Commission for several years. Well, he's 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: published a series of academic papers and spoken to media 63 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: over the last couple of days about how he says 64 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: that the fund lacks integrity and is and I quote 65 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: a fraud on the environment and a fraud on tax payers. 66 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: It's a pretty big claims. 67 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: Are that certainly is quite elevated language. So what is 68 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: the evidence that he suggests is behind this fraudulent claim. 69 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: So it's based on a series of papers that he's 70 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: co authored with some other academics at a and U, 71 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: the Australian National University, and it's based really on an 72 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: analysis of well, what are the projects that got funding 73 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: and that got credits for reducing commissions And he says 74 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: that three quarters of the projects what he describes is 75 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of not genuine reductions in a means, and he 76 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: said that most of them are things like planting trees 77 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: or agreeing not to cut down trees. And also the 78 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: other example that he gave was making energy out of 79 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: burning methane from landfills and basically all three of these things, 80 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: a they're sort of pretty small game to begin with 81 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: in terms of emissions, but also that some of the criteria, 82 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: he says, lacked integrity, and that some of the checking 83 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: about whether these projects were genuine and whether they were 84 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: actually a new commitment to reduce emissions was not really done. So, 85 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: and again I quote from him here, he said, people 86 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: are getting credits for not clearing forests that were never 87 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: going to be cleared. They are getting credits for growing 88 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 1: trees that are already there. They're getting credits for growing 89 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: forests in places that will never sustain permanent forests. So so, 90 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: basically his point was that the integrity in the checking 91 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: mechanisms that he was involved in were not doing a 92 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: good enough job of ensuring that these projects were actually 93 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: value for money. And that's part of why he says 94 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: that this money has been wasted and that it is 95 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: what he describes in fairly strong language as a fraud. 96 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: They're pretty sensational claims. Tom. You put to Angus Taylor's offers, 97 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: what did you hear back from them? 98 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: Yes, so I did put this to Minister Angus Taylor's 99 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: office Energy Minister Angus Taylor, and their response was very Strong, 100 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: a spokesperson for Minister Taylor, said that the Minister categorically 101 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: rejects the claims. He said, the fact is the fund 102 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,119 Speaker 1: is the world's largest and most successful national offset scheme. 103 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: It's got a well deserved reputation for best practice integrity. 104 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: He said the claims were false. He said the Clean 105 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: Energy Regulator it also said the claims were false, and 106 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: it's fair to say he took a bit of a 107 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: swipe back at Professor Andrew McIntosh by pointing out that, well, 108 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, Andrew McIntosh was involved in this program himself 109 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: for five years. He was responsible for advising the government 110 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: and giving the government the advice on whether the different 111 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: programs met the required standards. And so the question that 112 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: was put to me is is Professor McIntosh now suggesting 113 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: that he provided flawed advice to successive Commonwealth minister. So 114 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: a bit of a war of words here about this 115 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: fund and certainly something that the Minister's office didn't take 116 00:05:58,960 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: very kindly to. 117 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: Tom. You're pretty uniquely positioned here to talk about some 118 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: of these things because you've worked in the public service before, 119 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: and perhaps not many audience members have done so, so 120 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: can you just explain very high level, what the relationship 121 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: between the public service and our politicians are and what 122 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: this all means the story for the government. 123 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is I think a really good question, Zarah, 124 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: And it's important to kind of clarify. So Andrew Macintosh, 125 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: as you say, as a public servant working on this 126 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: emission's reduction fund, he is kind of, you know, in 127 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: the period where he was working there, he was working 128 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: for the government, but as an independent expert. And so 129 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: in theory, you know, the job of independent experts in 130 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: the public service is to kind of give the kind 131 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: of clearest and the frankest advice that they can about 132 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: what the government should do, and then the government kind of, 133 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, makes the decisions that need to be made. 134 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: And so I think that's kind of theoretical idea is 135 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: where Angus Taylor's coming from when he says, well, you 136 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: know you were here, you're in the public service, why 137 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: didn't you say anything then? But of course, in practice, 138 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: and I think my observation from my time in the 139 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: public service is that the relationship is a little bit 140 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: more complicated than that. Public servants do often find themselves 141 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: quite constrained by the views and the preferences of the 142 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: government of the day, and it's certainly true that public 143 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: servants are kind of constrained by the environments that they 144 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: find themselves in. The Prime Minister has spoken a lot 145 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: of times over the last few years that you know, 146 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: he thinks the role for the public service is not 147 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: to tell the government what to do. Scott Morrison's been 148 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: very clear he sees the role of the public service 149 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: to do what the government tells it to do. And 150 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: I think it's one of these sort of really live 151 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: debates among public servants, and the relationship between independent experts 152 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: and the government is kind of well, who do you 153 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: blame when something goes wrong? Is the government ultimately the 154 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: one calling the shots, because that's certainly the way that 155 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: Scott Morrison tends to talk about his relationship with a 156 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: public service. Or you know, do you say, well, you're 157 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: the independent expert. You were there, you were supposed to 158 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: make sure that this program had integrity and you didn't 159 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: and so you know it's wrong for you to now 160 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: turn around and criticize it. So not hit a way 161 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: in on that debate, but I will say it is 162 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: very very unusual. I can't think of any recent example 163 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: really of a public servant, a former public servant speaking 164 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: this frankly and bluntly about a government policy that they 165 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: worked on in the public service. It's quite an extraordinary 166 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: war of words and I think a really really interesting 167 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: one to watch. Where it goes next. 168 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: Definitely is Tom and thank you for being my co 169 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: anchor for the week. It's been a pleasure. 170 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: It's been fun. I haven't kidnapped Sam here, he's still alive. 171 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: We'll be back soon. 172 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: Sam will be back with us next week, but until then, 173 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: follow the day's news on Instagram at the Daily Ours. 174 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: It swear over three hundred thousand Ozzies get their news 175 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: every day and we'd love to have you as part 176 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: of that community. Have a great weekend.