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Speaker 1: It's a special Will and Woody podcast mini.

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Speaker 2: Easily one of the most scarring things I've seen in

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Speaker 2: the news for a long time. Doesn't matter how many

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Speaker 2: mass issues that can happen. As soon as an issue

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Speaker 2: is made personable and you can put yourself in the

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Speaker 2: person's shoes and you feel for them, then the sorts

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Speaker 2: of news stories that is this accidental shooting that Alec

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Speaker 2: Borwin perpetrated is just the sort of thing that just

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Speaker 2: makes your toes cirk curl.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you hoped it was a joke or you hoped

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Speaker 3: it was clickbait, to be honest, but it wasn't clickbait

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Speaker 3: at all. And I think a lot of the questions

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Speaker 3: that we're all asking is how on earth something like

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Speaker 3: this happens on a movie set where there would be

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Speaker 3: a prop master controlling guns with blanks, etc. So to

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Speaker 3: speak to that a little bit, where You've got a

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Speaker 3: man called Joseph Fisher who joins us on the phone

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Speaker 3: right now from New York. He's not only a prop

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Speaker 3: master for movies, but he has also been an LAPD detective.

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Speaker 3: He's a retired LAPD detective twenty five years he was that.

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Speaker 3: But Joe, you join us right now, And our first question, mate,

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Speaker 3: is how does something like this happen?

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Speaker 1: There are so many checks and balances that we have

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Speaker 1: on a film set when it comes to dealing with weapons,

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Speaker 1: that there's something like this to happen. It had to

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Speaker 1: be a catastrophic failure of policy and procedure, and that's

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Speaker 1: the only way this could happen where a live round

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Speaker 1: was possibly allowed on set and introduced to a proper weapon.

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Speaker 2: Is there any sense from you that there's any sort

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Speaker 2: of foul play involved here at Old Joseph.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't appear to be at this time. I know

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Speaker 1: the New Mexico law enforcement agents are handling that part

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Speaker 1: of the investigation right now to make sure that it

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Speaker 1: is an accident and a mishap rather than something intentional.

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Speaker 3: So, Joe, you are a propmaster for films where there

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Speaker 3: are weapons, more specifically guns being involved there. Given your

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Speaker 3: experience there, if you were working on this movie, would

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Speaker 3: would you be the one who's responsible in that situation

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Speaker 3: for handing over Alec Baldwin a gun with blanks in it?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I would be. Typically there's only two people on

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Speaker 1: set who would be handing the weapon to an actor.

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Speaker 1: One would be a prop master. The second would be

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Speaker 1: the set armorer who's responsible for the ammunition and the

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Speaker 1: weapons themselves. Right, Typically on a film set, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have a director or an assistant director grabbing a gun

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Speaker 1: from the gun cart and handing it to the actor.

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Speaker 3: And sorry, Joseph, is that what happened in this particular situation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was. Apparently there were three weapons on the

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Speaker 1: weapon cart, which was left unattended from what we're being told,

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Speaker 1: and the assistant director went to get one of the

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Speaker 1: weapons for out Bold went to practice with and rehearse with,

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Speaker 1: and that's when it occurred.

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Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, wow. Yeah, it's just hard to hear, isn't.

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Speaker 2: Apparently he was just hysterical for hours afterwards. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever shot someone, Joseph Am, I allowed to ask.

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Speaker 1: You that you personally, No, I have not. I've been

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Speaker 1: in a position where I came very close while on

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Speaker 1: patrol of New York City. Yeah, and it's a gut

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Speaker 1: wrenching moment when you're trying to decide within a split

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Speaker 1: second whether you're going to pull trigger or not in

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Speaker 1: line of duty in the defense and protect human life.

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Speaker 1: So I can't imagine what he's going through right now

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Speaker 1: as a perfessonal.

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Speaker 2: Actor, particularly because he hasn't got that justification to lean

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Speaker 2: back on now, Like he can't say all while I

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Speaker 2: was defending someone, or I was doing it in the

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Speaker 2: line of judy or whatever it is. It's like, this

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Speaker 2: is just an accident. There's no there's no justification, there's

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Speaker 2: no explanation as to what's gone on. It's just a tragedy.

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Speaker 2: And he's at the other end of it. It's shocking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's devastating moment for anybody to be in. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Geez wow. All right, Well, the other big thing is

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Speaker 2: is there going to be any criminal liability attributed to

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Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin himself in all of this? And I think

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Speaker 2: Joseph Fisher, former NYPD detective and prop master for thirty

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Speaker 2: years over in the US, he's going to have the answer.

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Speaker 2: We're going to ask him about it right up next

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Speaker 2: to GWEHAMOODI.

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Speaker 3: The big play here is Alec Baldwin himself. Is he

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Speaker 3: any chance of facing criminal charges?

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Speaker 1: It's very possible. I'm not familiar with the law and

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Speaker 1: how it applies to New Mexico, Okay, I could only

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Speaker 1: speak how we would handle it in New York based

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Speaker 1: on the facts, if the investigation determined that it was

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Speaker 1: the prop master or the armor who's responsible for introducing

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Speaker 1: that round to that weapon, and that it was in

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Speaker 1: fact a real world bullet, that would bring in criminal

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Speaker 1: negligence and hostilities man's laughter charges on the person who.

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Speaker 2: Who loaded the gun. Because I was talking about please

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Speaker 2: excuse me jump in at any stage, Joseph, but this

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Speaker 2: is possibly my one opportunity to use my relatively redundant

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Speaker 2: law degree. But you know what I was telling this

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Speaker 2: the other day was, in order to commit a crime,

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Speaker 2: you need two parts of the crime. You need the

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Speaker 2: men's rayer, which is the mental element, and you need

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Speaker 2: the actus rais, which is the actual physical action of

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Speaker 2: doing the crime. And you need both of those things

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Speaker 2: operating at the same time in order to commit a

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Speaker 2: crime in what Joseph would call homicide. But in the

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Speaker 2: field of murder, it's either negligence to the crime or

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Speaker 2: its intention. So he's got no intention, and if he

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Speaker 2: doesn't know that there's a live round, he's not negligent either.

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Speaker 2: But it's different for the prop master who loaded the gun.

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Speaker 2: Have I absolutely now that Joseph plays tell me I.

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Speaker 1: Have You're pretty much right on point with that. And

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Speaker 1: the best parallel that I think I could draw in

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Speaker 1: this situation is the nineteen eighties film The Twilight Zone

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Speaker 1: where they had the helicopter accidents that killed three actors

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Speaker 1: on set to them being children. Yeah, and that got

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Speaker 1: tied up court for years. Yeah, and I believe what

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Speaker 1: ended up coming out of that was a civil lawsuit

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Speaker 1: and not a criminal case.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it was.

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Speaker 1: So much shared responsibility amongst I believe fifteen to twenty

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Speaker 1: different people, that they weren't able to prove that anybody

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Speaker 1: was culpable or that anybody did anything with intent.

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Speaker 2: They couldn't attribute the negligence directly. But the production company,

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, is obviously negligent because they have

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Speaker 2: a duty of care to the people that are on set.

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Speaker 2: So that'll be it. That'll be a civil dispute. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But if it actually has been a genuine accident, I

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Speaker 2: mean for me person, and in this scenario, you almost

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Speaker 2: don't want anybody to be criminally convicted in this situation, Like,

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Speaker 2: if it's an accident and.

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Speaker 1: That rate there is with us, assuming that it was

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Speaker 1: the live round, there's the possibility that it could have

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Speaker 1: been something lodged in the barrel of the gun, but

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Speaker 1: that was propelled when the blank went off, and that

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Speaker 1: we don't know yet until they do an autopsy and

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Speaker 1: they finished the on scene investigation and they find whatever

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Speaker 1: the projectile was.

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Speaker 3: Okay, can I ask you the other example of this

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Speaker 3: that comes to mind for me was that the unfortunate

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Speaker 3: death of Brandon Lee, and from my memory, he was

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Speaker 3: hit with a rubber bullet. And I guess my question here, Joseph,

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Speaker 3: how often or how common are these incidents on movie sets?

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Speaker 1: The frequency of these incidents is so low that there's

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Speaker 1: only four that I can think of in the pants

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Speaker 1: thirty five to forty years where a weapon responsible for

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Speaker 1: an injury on set. Yeah, and that's by in the

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Speaker 1: level professionalism. Yeah, and to the industry rules and regulations

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Speaker 1: that we all.

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Speaker 2: Follow, right right, is so it's got to be tightly controlled.

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Speaker 2: It just has to be. Yeah, But is there a

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Speaker 2: way of moving forward? I mean that when you are

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Speaker 2: on set because obviously in a lot of action movies

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Speaker 2: and stuff, there's a lot of shooting of guns at

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Speaker 2: heads and stuff like that. Is there something like this

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Speaker 2: going to change how that move how that happens going forward,

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Speaker 2: do you think, Joseph.

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Speaker 1: There's going to be a lot more attention paid on

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Speaker 1: set to safety the following protocol. Yeah, and I know

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Speaker 1: some productions here in the United States have already publicly

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Speaker 1: announced that they are no longer using blank ammunition and

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Speaker 1: modified blank firing guns on set. Instead, what they're leaning

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Speaker 1: are the air sourced replica guns.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, Joseph Fisher, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure to talk to you.

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Speaker 3: Mate.

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Speaker 2: Likewise, Joseph Fisher, propmaster and former NYPD detective talking to

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Speaker 2: us about Alec Bourblin.

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Speaker 1: There.

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Speaker 2: Those are just a sorry start of affairs. It really

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Speaker 2: is just absolutely tragic. Hear more of the boys on

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Speaker 2: the full Show podcast.

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Speaker 1: You know you want to