Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris
Speaker 1: and on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes
Speaker 1: with the biggest players in television today. On the podcast,
Speaker 1: I have the well respected and highly regarded television executive
Speaker 1: Ben Ulm, who is the head of Factual and Reality
Speaker 1: at ITV Studios. There's not many people who have worked
Speaker 1: in the Australian TV industry who have never been out
Speaker 1: of work. He has gone from strength to strength and
Speaker 1: worked with some of the greats on programs that you've
Speaker 1: been watching for as long as I can remember. He
Speaker 1: grew up with journal's parents who commented on television and
Speaker 1: from there his passion and knowledge of the box is
Speaker 1: exponentially profound. Ben not only has a cool name, but
Speaker 1: he has an eye for content and an understanding of
Speaker 1: storytelling that has industry leaders partnering with him and his ideas.
Speaker 1: So what makes today's guest tick Well, We're about to
Speaker 1: find out with some exclusive content on how these shows
Speaker 1: get made.
Speaker 2: I am part of the executive team at ITV Studios.
Speaker 1: I'm a celebrity.
Speaker 2: Get in my corner that is reality and factual and
Speaker 2: his farmer is one step closer to finding his wife.
Speaker 2: When there's an authentic moment that you capture on camera
Speaker 2: that's really satisfying. Chase. Try to help out networks with
Speaker 2: their challenges and problems.
Speaker 1: The living room has all the teas you need.
Speaker 2: TV is not a mirror to ourselves, but it's relatable
Speaker 2: to everyone. So Ben, how are you relatively well? I
Speaker 2: think we've all had an extraordinary year, and I think
Speaker 2: we've all had that period of reflection during lockdown about
Speaker 2: what's happening to the world, what's happening to our business,
Speaker 2: what happened, what's happening to me? And we've come through
Speaker 2: it relatively okay in terms of an industry with many
Speaker 2: challenges with everything we do now. But I'm healthy, I
Speaker 2: have a job, and I still love telling stories. So
Speaker 2: that's a good starting point for twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: You know, your role at ITV Studios is the head
Speaker 1: of reality and factual What does that mean to the
Speaker 1: average Joe? Like you know, if someone pulls your side
Speaker 1: at the pub and says, oh God, what's that? What
Speaker 1: do you do? How do you explain it?
Speaker 2: The short form of it is, I am part of
Speaker 2: the executive team at I TV Studios, where our mission
Speaker 2: is to run the series that we have on air
Speaker 2: at the moment, and so my corner of that is
Speaker 2: reality and factual, So that's documentaries, that's programs like I'm
Speaker 2: a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here? And we also
Speaker 2: developed some original content. But we also ITV is a
Speaker 2: company that has four thousand titles in its catalogs, so
Speaker 2: there are programs of all genres around the world that
Speaker 2: we benefit from having that IP and so we have
Speaker 2: a very collaborative development process where we all pitch in
Speaker 2: what's the euphanism. We try to help out networks with
Speaker 2: their challenges and problems. Help me help you by buying
Speaker 2: one of my todes. So I think if you're going
Speaker 2: to drill down on my specific corner, which is as
Speaker 2: silly as I'm a Celebrity in matters Hell and as
Speaker 2: serious as Who Gets to Stay in Australia, which is
Speaker 2: a documentary series, per I.
Speaker 1: Just love the fact that it's just so many categories,
Speaker 1: which it must mean that you never get bored because
Speaker 1: you've worked in news, documentary, reality, entertainment, comedy, lifestyle. I
Speaker 1: hope I'm not forgetting any of those. But you know, personally,
Speaker 1: to you, what's your favorite is there something that you go, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's the piece of the dessert that I enjoy the most.
Speaker 2: So in terms of what I get a kick out of,
Speaker 2: I get a kick out of having a cast that's
Speaker 2: working as well as on the celebrity works and the
Speaker 2: things that I've seen on paper and we see sort
Speaker 2: of you know, we pitched a challenge in a boardroom,
Speaker 2: seeing that actually work and seeing the ratings from that.
Speaker 2: But I also get a kick out of a well
Speaker 2: executed story and from a documentary, you know. And documentary
Speaker 2: is the art of capturing a moment. As for the
Speaker 2: confected world, where particularly with some reality shows, they're more
Speaker 2: or less scripted and they're more or less more dramality
Speaker 2: than genuine moments. For a lot of reasons. It's delivering
Speaker 2: on the fairy tale that is with in Australia in
Speaker 2: the world. Once when there's an authentic moment that you
Speaker 2: capture on camera while you're filling a documentary with a
Speaker 2: various small budget, low key crew, that's really satisfying as
Speaker 2: well and everything in between. We had to dabble with
Speaker 2: a scripted comedy earlier in my tenure here about five
Speaker 2: six years ago. I love that, you know, the great
Speaker 2: thing about access is that they do what they're told.
Speaker 2: In reality and documentary, you're capturing what happens rather than
Speaker 2: prescribing its. It really just depends, you know. And this
Speaker 2: coming Sunday will be the live finale of I'm a
Speaker 2: Celebrity Getting out of Here, having pre recorded the series
Speaker 2: civilized Action beckons for our magnificent seven Julia.
Speaker 1: Indeed, my darling indeed, and the next time we'll see
Speaker 1: them will be on our grand finale stage.
Speaker 2: And we've got the band back together again. We go
Speaker 2: Pitle all aback in studio directing it. We're all there,
Speaker 2: and that live energy, that electricity and danger of a
Speaker 2: live broadcast, there's nothing like it. So I think, in
Speaker 2: terms of all the genres that I've been involved with,
Speaker 2: there's not a person that I haven't said in passing
Speaker 2: that everyone should do on a celebrity, even once in
Speaker 2: their life, because it ticks all those boxes. If you're
Speaker 2: a storyteller's story, if you're a joke tellers jokes, if
Speaker 2: you want the big scale set pieces with very limited
Speaker 2: scope for failure that the four hundred and fifty crew
Speaker 2: you have that, do you want real moments between people
Speaker 2: you get that as well. So that program, I mean,
Speaker 2: I've done it seven times now, It's the one program
Speaker 2: I'll always go back to.
Speaker 3: I offer this has been one of the greatest experiences
Speaker 3: of my life. I came in here afraid I'm not
Speaker 3: happy with who I was. I needed a change, and
Speaker 3: I feel I've achieved that.
Speaker 1: The thing I love when you talk to different people
Speaker 1: that have worked with you, they talk about your mantras.
Speaker 1: You know, you often say is it compelling? Does it
Speaker 1: pay off in the end? Is it a well told story?
Speaker 1: Is there a hook that universally works? You know, I
Speaker 1: guess that's the question. Is there a hook that universally
Speaker 1: works for audiences that you live by, that exists within
Speaker 1: all of that?
Speaker 2: If you capture a moment, like a real moment, it's
Speaker 2: hard to be. You can create an environment where people
Speaker 2: will interact, and you can create a rule set where people,
Speaker 2: you know, you can try to engineer what they do,
Speaker 2: and this is across most genres. But there's just that
Speaker 2: simple moment between people and that it doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be a profound personal moment, could just be funny. I
Speaker 2: think TV is not a mirror to ourselves, but it's
Speaker 2: relatable to everyone because we understand those jeopardies. I mean,
Speaker 2: we provide sort of the extraordinary environment that encapsulates it,
Speaker 2: you know. I think story is story, you know, and
Speaker 2: I think if it's clear, if there's an objective there,
Speaker 2: if there's a purpose, I think it's another phrase I
Speaker 2: use quite a lot of what's the purpose of this
Speaker 2: scene or this moment, How does this contribute to the
Speaker 2: to the overall story. Sometimes you don't know in the time,
Speaker 2: you know. Sometimes I mean on twenty four hour Turnaround program,
Speaker 2: you've got to we all call it as we see
Speaker 2: it because that character. ARC love to say that we
Speaker 2: design that, but of course I think it just happens accidentally.
Speaker 2: And if we've been able to capture those key moments
Speaker 2: that contribute to that, that's probably the best representation of
Speaker 2: that type of program we can have. It just depends
Speaker 2: on the program, Benjamin, matter of whether it's a program
Speaker 2: where access so that they don't know the cameras are there,
Speaker 2: but they're comfortable enough to share their fears and the
Speaker 2: things that they're basing. That's important to do that in
Speaker 2: that passion with a big program under a huge pressure
Speaker 2: kind of celebrity and some of the other programs. You're
Speaker 2: creating an environment where they can they can roam freely,
Speaker 2: but you also need them to be motivated to share
Speaker 2: of themselves and scenarios. In the middle of the season four,
Speaker 2: when it was a long season, it was hot, we
Speaker 2: were very strict about diet and we just broke them.
Speaker 2: So that's interesting. They're disinterested, depressed celebrities, state of talk,
Speaker 2: but waiting for their next meal break. So you know,
Speaker 2: we learn as we go.
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, don't kill the celebrities.
Speaker 2: Celebrities, and I think, you know, we're there to entertain. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's a social experiment, and yes they're in an environment
Speaker 2: that never been before and with people that wouldn't usually
Speaker 2: hang out with, and interesting things happen in that. But
Speaker 2: you know, we have entertaining. It's going to be interesting somehow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I think is really important. You know, I
Speaker 1: always think with television it needs to be relatable and aspirational.
Speaker 1: I think that they're the two key things for me
Speaker 1: that I think is when TV seems to work. You know,
Speaker 1: when you bought I'm a Celebrity over from the UK,
Speaker 1: it had obviously been quite successful over there for quite
Speaker 1: some time. What was it that you did to the
Speaker 1: format to make it seem you know, ready for Australian audiences, Like,
Speaker 1: what are those noticeable differences between those two franchises.
Speaker 2: Well, quite bluntly, it was the it's an expensive proposition
Speaker 2: for a short run intensive program. You know, the UK
Speaker 2: show run for thirteen fourteen years as a Christmas three
Speaker 2: week delight, you know, three weeks in and out, and
Speaker 2: they have much better budgetsto in Australia because their population
Speaker 2: is much greater. So many people before I came to
Speaker 2: IDEAVI had pitched the program, but it was just whether
Speaker 2: it be for seven, nine or ten, it's just too
Speaker 2: enser it because the premise had to stack up. You know,
Speaker 2: we had to do it in another country. It had
Speaker 2: and you know we couldn't just do it in our
Speaker 2: own backyard as a starting point, because you genuinely needed
Speaker 2: to go on that adventure and be that fish out
Speaker 2: of water. The UK culturally, they're happy to embrace something
Speaker 2: which is a tenuous jungle, you know, because it's all
Speaker 2: about the humor, and they are fish out of water
Speaker 2: in that. You know, they don't see snakes as commonly
Speaker 2: as we do. Its biders, so it works, So it
Speaker 2: was a matter of getting value for the broadcaster. Choose
Speaker 2: my phrase, put it up on the hoist, you know,
Speaker 2: let's look at the program and what we can do
Speaker 2: to make it work for broadcaster here now, the strongest
Speaker 2: interest we had was in twenty fourteen, my first year
Speaker 2: here from Channel ten. Stephen Tate and Beverly McGarvey showed
Speaker 2: it renewed interest and so we scattered at Jungle in
Speaker 2: South Africa and he was over there for The Bachelor,
Speaker 2: so we linked up with him and to escaped there
Speaker 2: from ten. But we needed to make it work as
Speaker 2: a sick week or seven week or eight week strip.
Speaker 2: She had never been done anywhere, and so I came
Speaker 2: up with a creative with the team that ten commissioned,
Speaker 2: and without getting into the detail of it here, it
Speaker 2: was very different to what you see now because everyone
Speaker 2: told me that the three weeks of the UK show
Speaker 2: it nearly kills the crew and it nearly kills celebrities.
Speaker 2: It was so intensive. Even with a massive crew of
Speaker 2: five hundred, it's full on. So we couldn't simply just go, okay, right,
Speaker 2: we'll just double what they do. But afterwards commissioned and
Speaker 2: we had our first production meetings. First create a meeting
Speaker 2: with Beverly, she formed the view that my creative or
Speaker 2: our creative at the time, was just too complicated for
Speaker 2: a season one and it would baffle rather than educate
Speaker 2: the audience. She was right, she was right, keep it simple, stupid.
Speaker 2: So we roll the dice. We extended the program to
Speaker 2: a six week run. We were warned that it's going
Speaker 2: to affect the caliber of people you could get. We
Speaker 2: don't know whether what happens after that three week mark.
Speaker 2: After that three remark in the UK, they are deplete,
Speaker 2: they've done, they've run their course, and that's when they
Speaker 2: come out. And we figured it out. We figured, you know,
Speaker 2: we had very strong support from ten Stephen Tate here,
Speaker 2: you know, and I was part of our development with
Speaker 2: the whole team, working Hillary Innis and Lara Hopkins. We
Speaker 2: had the great Peter Abbott on board as our guide
Speaker 2: as well. But the thing is it was uncharted territory
Speaker 2: and so we cast it. We honored the format, we
Speaker 2: honored the diet that they would prescribed. We launched well,
Speaker 2: and celebrities struggled, And I think about the closing up
Speaker 2: to the two week mark, we had Laura Dundervitch ready
Speaker 2: to walk, so to the point where she was packing
Speaker 2: her things inside. Our production people were getting ready with
Speaker 2: a suitcase detector to our hotel. But then this self
Speaker 2: chain of events suddenly Chrissy Swan and Joe Creesy they
Speaker 2: were done. They were going, well, I'm not saying if
Speaker 2: you don't stay here, So then we had three potentially walking.
Speaker 1: I'm not myself. I just don't feel funny and I'm tired.
Speaker 2: I'm a tough cookie and this never happens to me,
Speaker 2: so it's really it's really quite shocking.
Speaker 1: Are you guys really tired today?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so depressed.
Speaker 1: Oh, we've had enough.
Speaker 2: And Stephen Tate turned to me. So Stephen Tate at
Speaker 2: the network executive said, what's our TV studio is going
Speaker 2: to do if they all walk at the end of
Speaker 2: week two and we have four and a half more
Speaker 2: weeks of program to broadcast and plenty for our turnaround
Speaker 2: program like We're Live. And I've said, I'll take your
Speaker 2: point at it on advisement because I didn't know, you know,
Speaker 2: So anyway, we had a lot of discussions about how
Speaker 2: can we keep them in, you know, do we feed
Speaker 2: them some more, do we give them a break. We
Speaker 2: pull them out and give them break, bring them back
Speaker 2: in again. And we had this wonderful intel from the UK.
Speaker 2: We had the wonderful Oli Nash, who's like Yoda, who's
Speaker 2: done all the UK series. And what we did was
Speaker 2: the Oli Nash called the UK, came back to us
Speaker 2: and said, I want to try something. And at the
Speaker 2: end of that second week, when everyone was at a lowe,
Speaker 2: they bumped in a little Twitter game who was this
Speaker 2: set about. It's a simple game where you read out
Speaker 2: what was said about people and you have to guess
Speaker 2: who it was tweeted about. And it was like watering
Speaker 2: a plant because suddenly, for the first time, all of
Speaker 2: those beautiful people in that original cast, who had no
Speaker 2: idea whether they were being watched, whether the series was tanking,
Speaker 2: whether they were being humiliated, they had no idea. Suddenly
Speaker 2: they had this tiny little output from the outside world.
Speaker 2: They're talking about us, they love us, and it turned
Speaker 2: things around. It just got them through that hump. It's
Speaker 2: not just that, but they kind of hung in there,
Speaker 2: you know. And then this weird thing that happens every year,
Speaker 2: this kinship happened. We had marsh Brady and Laura Dundovich
Speaker 2: and Christy Swan, all these people that didn't know each
Speaker 2: other and they connected, you know, and the premise of
Speaker 2: the show, which is you do silly challenges to win
Speaker 2: food for your camp mates, which I wasn't sure it
Speaker 2: would stack up for Australian celebrities. I wasn't sure they'd
Speaker 2: just go fuck that, but they did. They worked for
Speaker 2: each other. We got over that hump, and we got
Speaker 2: over that three week camp and that four week camp,
Speaker 2: that five week camp, and that six week camp. We
Speaker 2: had a fantastic finale. And here we are getting towards
Speaker 2: the end of season seven.
Speaker 1: From that very first season, do you have something to
Speaker 1: say to all those celebrities who were the guinea pigs?
Speaker 2: Regardless of what Alex Beberdyke says, I go to the
Speaker 2: church of season one because it was such a brave
Speaker 2: thing to do, to just hand over their lives to
Speaker 2: us people they're barely met, because you know, we've all
Speaker 2: the reassurances of executive producers to say you're fine, you're fine,
Speaker 2: you'll be fine, And they didn't know how they would
Speaker 2: be perceived, whether there would be whether this would be
Speaker 2: career killers, and they were so brave, and we were
Speaker 2: so strict with them that they will always be my
Speaker 2: favorites in that regard, all of them. Barry Hall, Joel,
Speaker 2: you know, it was just a beautiful thing. Freddie Flint
Speaker 2: tof season two on with with Alex. I have to
Speaker 2: give him due difference as well, because he's the best
Speaker 2: executive producer for reality TV that I've ever met, and
Speaker 2: he's grown the format and he's been a stut and
Speaker 2: his forecasts have all worked. And so seasons two, three
Speaker 2: to seven, eight, nine, and hopefully ten is the Alex Show.
Speaker 2: But that original cast, and it took a few years.
Speaker 2: You know. I think it took Shane Warne's kids to
Speaker 2: talk him into doing it, and he didn't need to
Speaker 2: do it, but he did it for his kids. And
Speaker 2: the material benefits that have come from the series for
Speaker 2: all manner of celebrities, I've been really happy with. We've
Speaker 2: had our first celebrity baby, Lauren Brandt, and Barry Hall
Speaker 2: had people's career has been revived in radio. Barry Hall
Speaker 2: was doing a toilet paper ad within four weeks of
Speaker 2: coming out, So I think people now recognize that there
Speaker 2: are material benefits for it, and I think we've been
Speaker 2: good at retaining the core authenticity of it. Peter Abbott
Speaker 2: said back in the day, he said said there's about
Speaker 2: Big Brother as well, it's an unproduced show. Now that
Speaker 2: seems odd to say it's an unproduced show because there
Speaker 2: are a minion producers on the show, but he's right.
Speaker 2: You create the bubble, you create the environment, whether it
Speaker 2: be a Big Brother or I'm a celebrity, and then
Speaker 2: you guys figure it out when you're in there, and
Speaker 2: it's what you make of it. And you know, when
Speaker 2: you're talking about production and why haven't they got your
Speaker 2: meds there on time? Or why is it so hot?
Speaker 2: Or why is my bed? So what are the producers
Speaker 2: doing that? You know, we can't use that, that's not
Speaker 2: part of But when you talk to each other, you know,
Speaker 2: positively or negatively, that's really interesting content. And it's set
Speaker 2: at the start of our conversation. You know, the conversations
Speaker 2: I'm proudest of when you see people from the opposite
Speaker 2: world sitting down having debates and discussions around things that
Speaker 2: politicians can't resolve, and they don't resolve them. They give
Speaker 2: each other a perspective and they acknowledge each other's point
Speaker 2: of view and kids there. You know, kids don't watch
Speaker 2: Q and A, they watch this. It really makes me
Speaker 2: proud when I see those things, and when you do
Speaker 2: see those things. Nothing to do with me. It's got
Speaker 2: nothing to do with Alex, It's got nothing to do
Speaker 2: with the four hundred crew. It's two people who've been
Speaker 2: placed into an environment where they can have that conversation.
Speaker 1: Did anyone ever come out in any of the teams?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 4: I never suspected anyone or whatever, but now no one
Speaker 4: from NFL has yet. Surely someone's come out.
Speaker 1: Well in all of AFL.
Speaker 4: I played football for eighten years and I'm sure there
Speaker 4: were some gay, homosexual people playing, but no one really
Speaker 4: came out in our time saying, oh you know this
Speaker 4: is who I am.
Speaker 1: It's those really good human moments. What would you say
Speaker 1: makes a good executive producer? I mean, you touched upon
Speaker 1: Alex doing a great job, and you know, across so
Speaker 1: many shows that you have worked across, what do you
Speaker 1: think ultimately makes a good executive producer.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of community cass as you'd imagine in
Speaker 2: a project with Sony moving pieces, and if you have
Speaker 2: an executive producer on a small documentary where there's any
Speaker 2: two other people. It's a different role to managing with
Speaker 2: production a four hundred and thirty plus crew, and you
Speaker 2: need good people working in your departments because you cannot micromanage.
Speaker 2: It's not about having lots of lots of meetings, having
Speaker 2: very clear direction, being able to be a good traffic
Speaker 2: crop yes no, yes, no. To invest in the people
Speaker 2: that are doing the things that you want. You know,
Speaker 2: I mean Alex would be the first to say, is
Speaker 2: his head of trials, his head of art. All those
Speaker 2: people are creative geniuses in their own right, and they're
Speaker 2: in an environment where they can shine. You know, they
Speaker 2: know that they can make decisions and they can creatively
Speaker 2: push the boat at a little bit knowing that you
Speaker 2: know he has their back. But then you know there's
Speaker 2: the network relations being able to sort of communicate, you know,
Speaker 2: knowing when to escalate, when you know when to share,
Speaker 2: when to overshare, undershare, so that the network is involved
Speaker 2: and isn't surprised by things happen. You know, Alex is
Speaker 2: celebrated for being the guy that is outrageous and controversial,
Speaker 2: but he'll also defend someone if he thinks that there's
Speaker 2: a celebrity there who's going to be stitched up by
Speaker 2: a conversation or if there's an undefended accusation by one
Speaker 2: celebrity to another celebrity, and there's a real decency with that,
Speaker 2: and it's it is very easy to get caught up
Speaker 2: into the excitement of the controversy or or the conversation is.
Speaker 2: But he'll be the one that will defend that celebrity
Speaker 2: to the hilt when there's none of us will ever
Speaker 2: get to wear but controversies that happen behind the scenes
Speaker 2: where you think, okay, you know, how are going to
Speaker 2: deal with this content? And you know, if you're in
Speaker 2: the bubble, you can't defend yourself, if the press is
Speaker 2: teeing off on what you've done in the in camp,
Speaker 2: you can't defend yourself. Abb you can defend usself because
Speaker 2: or ash because you know they're out. You know it's
Speaker 2: a pre recorded programs, so they can do that. But
Speaker 2: Alex is a defender of the cast member who is
Speaker 2: just being themselves in that environment. He stands by the
Speaker 2: show when they come out and so you know, I
Speaker 2: don't think he's got he's had too many white feathers
Speaker 2: in the mail from celebrities since he came out. I mean,
Speaker 2: Petty Fluer wasn't happy for about twenty four hours, but
Speaker 2: that was more about her competitive spirit. And then twenty
Speaker 2: four hours later she was, you know, she'd recovered. It
Speaker 2: was just her competitive spirit. But she was the same
Speaker 2: on Hell's Kitchen with Marco Pierre White three or four
Speaker 2: years ago, where she just she's just one of these beautiful,
Speaker 2: unfiltered people that was convinced she was going to win.
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you, Why wouldn't I win this? Look at me?
Speaker 2: So I honestly to getting out of here. She had
Speaker 2: the same conviction, like how could I not? How could
Speaker 2: I get something wrong? It's me, you know which how
Speaker 2: do you manage that? You don't detach from them like
Speaker 2: I think you let always be the thought of him
Speaker 2: for a conversation. You don't pressure them, You treat them
Speaker 2: decently and then check in. So in the example of
Speaker 2: um a celebrity, Yeah, when she got catapultar fifty feet
Speaker 2: through the air into a dark, inky swamp, when she
Speaker 2: thought she was going to survive, Yeah, she wasn't very
Speaker 2: happy as we wrapped a towel around her. When she
Speaker 2: came out, she composed herself for the interview, and I
Speaker 2: thought she gave a very honest interview. And yeah, she was,
Speaker 2: you know, in the debrief that we always do with
Speaker 2: Alex and with seven Tate from ten. You know, she
Speaker 2: was a bit negative in that, but it was more
Speaker 2: that she was angry at herself. You know. Now twenty
Speaker 2: four hours later she was sending texts to Alex and
Speaker 2: to Stephen and apologizing for her conduct. And her conduct
Speaker 2: wasn't bad. She was just disappointed. And I texted her
Speaker 2: because I knew of Mihale's kitchen and I was also, yeah,
Speaker 2: doing this show, and she was lovely. She was sweetness
Speaker 2: and light and you know, just so I think, you know,
Speaker 2: if you treat people courteously and respectfully and don't just disappear,
Speaker 2: then when the cameras aren't on, then it's harder for
Speaker 2: them to hate. I suppose.
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, has what Australian audiences want on television changed?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, look at the way people are
Speaker 1: responding to programming these days. People are using these other
Speaker 1: catch up services. You look at Love Island. You know,
Speaker 1: it might not have had the biggest audience when it
Speaker 1: was on Channel nine for its first run, but then
Speaker 1: you look at the amount of people that have watched
Speaker 1: that show series one and two. Do you think that
Speaker 1: what Australian audiences want from TV has it changed?
Speaker 2: I think that the packaging and the type of programs, yeah,
Speaker 2: there are changes, but I think the core pool is
Speaker 2: the same. The fairy tale is the same. So but
Speaker 2: the challenges are what is going to compel broadcast. Let's
Speaker 2: just talk about television first before we get to the
Speaker 2: other platforms. What is compelled Channel nine to trust millions
Speaker 2: of dollars with ITV or Warners or another company dominate
Speaker 2: their schedule for a period of time And so is
Speaker 2: either the back to the future response, which is Channel
Speaker 2: seven going for the those heritage brands, or and every
Speaker 2: now and again there'll be a breakout kit, you know,
Speaker 2: perhaps it will be Holy Moly, perhaps it'll be something else.
Speaker 2: So I think that it's very, very challenging because we
Speaker 2: don't sit down as a family on seven thirty on
Speaker 2: a Wednesday night because we don't to miss the startup
Speaker 2: on and celebrity. We watch it when we want to.
Speaker 2: So it's important that TV is judged that way now
Speaker 2: and that's a real challenge for all the networks that
Speaker 2: one minute past nine. We are accustomed to checking those ratings,
Speaker 2: as are the advertisers who have invested in those programs,
Speaker 2: and we all either have a great day or a
Speaker 2: terrible as a result of that. But twenty eight days
Speaker 2: after that we have more meaningful data because people cherry
Speaker 2: pick and watch it when they wish. But the fairy
Speaker 2: tale is the same. First reality show I executive produced
Speaker 2: was Farmer Wants a Wife back in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: and I remember it was series three, and I try
Speaker 2: to change it up from series two because I thought
Speaker 2: Australia knows this format, so little nuance changes in the scripting,
Speaker 2: and Paul Franklin changed everything I did back to how
Speaker 2: it had been in series two and one. And the
Speaker 2: phrase is was to sell them the fairy tale, you know,
Speaker 2: and he's right, you know, it's the if you're watching
Speaker 2: the Bachelor or the Bachelorette, class is going to change,
Speaker 2: the circumstances are going to change, the twist might change,
Speaker 2: but you're there because you want to believe in the
Speaker 2: fairy tale. So how that's package, whether it's Love Island
Speaker 2: as a comedy, whether it's a putting show meets Ninja
Speaker 2: Warrior on Holly Moley. You know that at the base
Speaker 2: of it is a premise which has not changed. I
Speaker 2: wish you and I could figure out how to create
Speaker 2: buzz because also every now and again there's there's some
Speaker 2: buzz and that gives you the mask singer, some cute
Speaker 2: little format out of career, and of course it's you know,
Speaker 2: the breakout hit of the last couple of years, you know.
Speaker 2: So I think that's going to continue to happen, and
Speaker 2: that comes from a brave broadcaster or a production company
Speaker 2: taking an idea and exploding it. But it is hard
Speaker 2: to generate buzz because it's very financially risky to put
Speaker 2: a lot of money into something that had him in
Speaker 2: number four. And I wish Australia was more like the
Speaker 2: net villains where they put their pilots to where and
Speaker 2: they put another pilot to air and then from there
Speaker 2: you can develop programs on there. But it's just too
Speaker 2: small a market and it's too expensive a medium to
Speaker 2: do that. So it's the age old pub argument about
Speaker 2: whether TV dictates taste or tastes dictate TV.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting an argument because, like you know,
Speaker 1: we've married at first sight, some people are like Oh god,
Speaker 1: that's car crash television that you know that's really hard
Speaker 1: to watch, and then you think about it, well, it's rating,
Speaker 1: it's us off, and that's because audience is pretty much
Speaker 1: are dictating that. I mean, the show did start out
Speaker 1: with trying to genuinely find two people to get to
Speaker 1: stay married, and now it's kind of evolved into I
Speaker 1: think what audiences need or want, Like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not like the producer like how much more outrageous can
Speaker 1: we try and make this show? Like it's it's audiences
Speaker 1: are tuning in for this stuff.
Speaker 2: But you know what, I think there's some examples and
Speaker 2: I won't name them, but there are examples of programs
Speaker 2: that have tried to start with that car crash and
Speaker 2: those programs fail. And I think the story of marrit
Speaker 2: at First Sight, in my view, is it started with
Speaker 2: a really strong premise. It was a really strong premise,
Speaker 2: and those first three seasons in the House at nine,
Speaker 2: where you know, research says that match made marriages actually
Speaker 2: have a higher success rate than accidental ones. So it's
Speaker 2: the what if you know? And you're right, those first
Speaker 2: three seasons were all about that moment, you know, imagine
Speaker 2: meeting someone at the Altar, and they did a beautiful
Speaker 2: job of it. And as it progressed and became a
Speaker 2: script show, you know, it became bigger and bigger, and
Speaker 2: casting became noisier and noisier. That yeah, I mean, I've
Speaker 2: never made the show, but I've heard I don't enough
Speaker 2: people who work on it that they wrestled with the
Speaker 2: level of I guess, either grubbiness or controversy that they
Speaker 2: should have. And it was a genuine debate between the
Speaker 2: network and China in the ball, you know, And I
Speaker 2: think that I reckon probably for the future series, I'll
Speaker 2: start getting back to the core values of it. Because
Speaker 2: with any of those formats, whether it be Bama Wants
Speaker 2: a Wife or on a celebrity if he starts go
Speaker 2: down a certain area and that does have an impact
Speaker 2: or outstairs as welcome, going back to core values is
Speaker 2: always a good thing. And I reckon, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know if they can make it cart crash here
Speaker 2: this year than last year, but I reckon they'll go
Speaker 2: back to the way. If you know what, if you
Speaker 2: could meet your prescribed partner at the altar, that would
Speaker 2: be interesting. So yeah, part of it was by design.
Speaker 2: I think part of it was also by just the
Speaker 2: development of it.
Speaker 1: What would you say about this whole notion now of
Speaker 1: pre recorded TV versus live I mean, I've had that
Speaker 1: conversation with a few people who work in the industry,
Speaker 1: and producers like to work on content that they turn
Speaker 1: around in a twenty four hour way and audiences can
Speaker 1: interact with it. But the reality after COVID is that
Speaker 1: you've tried to Well, you've made a series of I'm
Speaker 1: a Celebrity at Home and you've pre recorded it and
Speaker 1: it's the highest rating series that you've done. Ultimately, does
Speaker 1: that mean that that's going to change the way that
Speaker 1: reality television is made or do you think we will
Speaker 1: go back to live content.
Speaker 2: I can't speak to ten, but I reckon they'd one
Speaker 2: do then everything below that want two becomes cost covid
Speaker 2: where you know whether the English come out and do
Speaker 2: their program in the location that we did our program.
Speaker 2: So I think yes, you could look at the ratings
Speaker 2: and go The ratings have been spectacular, huge testament to
Speaker 2: Beverly mcgarvey's strategy, which is launching early. There are eyeballs
Speaker 2: there who will embrace this. So that's been fantastically part
Speaker 2: of that. I think the show is live and dangerous
Speaker 2: in the sense that there's Chris and Julia and the
Speaker 2: things that you watch just happened in that day. I
Speaker 2: think that's the DNA of the show. Could you do
Speaker 2: it without that? What we've proven that you can? Will
Speaker 2: we do it again that way? It depends on a
Speaker 2: lot of other detail. My heart's in Africa. My head says, yeah,
Speaker 2: we could do it here again, but it will come
Speaker 2: down to price. There's a cost in both locations, not
Speaker 2: looking to Rosie for overseas travel at this stage, and
Speaker 2: also whether we can get that side because we're genuinely
Speaker 2: doing the show in someone's backyard, so they'll have to
Speaker 2: be happy for us to come back. But what do
Speaker 2: you think? You've seen the live versions of both of
Speaker 2: those franchises, as well as the pre recorded version of
Speaker 2: both those franchises. What do you reckon?
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, I think this is what it is. I'm
Speaker 1: a celebrity. I've really enjoyed this series and whether or
Speaker 1: not we know the answers to these questions are because
Speaker 1: it was at home. I think that the mix of
Speaker 1: celebrities has gelled really well. There's a real matship that
Speaker 1: we're seeing on screen at the moment, and I feel
Speaker 1: like that's because they feel a bit safe for being
Speaker 1: at home in Australia. Certainly to me has been more
Speaker 1: warm and more enjoyable than from what I can remember,
Speaker 1: So I think I'm a Celebrity does seem to work
Speaker 1: with it being pre recorded. There's other shows that are
Speaker 1: now prerecorded where I think the audience really does need
Speaker 1: to be there to make the decisions along the way
Speaker 1: as to who stays on the shows. You can eliminate them,
Speaker 1: and you've eliminated them fairly and it's been a great
Speaker 1: thing to watch. But you know on other shows where
Speaker 1: it it's designed that you know it's colluding, you know,
Speaker 1: it can come across as being quite sinister. So I
Speaker 1: enjoy the involvement. I think that the television should be aspirational,
Speaker 1: but I think that we need to be inclusive. That's
Speaker 1: when the viewers feel more connected, is when they are
Speaker 1: a part of it. So the short answer for all
Speaker 1: of that is I think that these shows, some of
Speaker 1: them work better as a pre record and some of
Speaker 1: them don't.
Speaker 2: So on the spot, you have to decide where are
Speaker 2: we doing the show for season eight, I've obviously get
Speaker 2: me out of here.
Speaker 1: I honestly think what's going to happen is what will transpire,
Speaker 1: and I think that you will do prerecorded I'm a
Speaker 1: celebrity for maybe one or two more seasons. But I
Speaker 1: think ultimately of the show still is going into its
Speaker 1: ten season, I think that you will go back to
Speaker 1: it being live eventually, But we're in a really dangerous
Speaker 1: time at the moment. You know, the insurance and all
Speaker 1: the rest of it, that the factors into making a
Speaker 1: show over in Africa. I just I don't see that
Speaker 1: happening for a little while.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the other franchise is Love Island, and
Speaker 2: you know, Love Island US was not on an island,
Speaker 2: you know, it was on top of a hotel in Vegas,
Speaker 2: And I remember a few years ago it might have
Speaker 2: been Richard Carl's was saying that the concept of the island,
Speaker 2: it could be like an island of the mine, like
Speaker 2: you know, we're like we're isolated and on this oasis.
Speaker 2: You know. In other words, it's an elastic format. But
Speaker 2: the point is that the content and the premise is
Speaker 2: not reliant on it being on an island. And I
Speaker 2: guess with honestly, to get me out of here. The
Speaker 2: content on the premise is not reliant and being an
Speaker 2: African jungle, hence the running joke the so called jungle,
Speaker 2: you know, and I would question whether the chemistry of
Speaker 2: this year is because the cast would comfortable be closer
Speaker 2: to home, or whether the cast were just good because
Speaker 2: they were you know, you never really know until they
Speaker 2: throw them together whether they're going to click or whether
Speaker 2: they're going to jar. But they we just looked at
Speaker 2: each other each day behind the scenes and just went, wow,
Speaker 2: there was something very special about this cast. And you
Speaker 2: know how you know, the producers prepare a little bump
Speaker 2: in games and secret challenge and we were just canceling them.
Speaker 2: We were saying, why are we doing anything to this cast?
Speaker 2: Just let them do what they want to do. So
Speaker 2: the cast is special.
Speaker 1: It's been fascinating, you know, honestly, it's the best cast
Speaker 1: that I think the show has ever had. I know that,
Speaker 1: you know, you will probably always remember that first series
Speaker 1: and say that that was an amazing cast as well.
Speaker 1: But we really needed I'm a celebrity to be like,
Speaker 1: Australian audiences really needed this. They really needed to watch,
Speaker 1: you know, the cast to get along as well as
Speaker 1: they have because it's been comforting.
Speaker 2: It's great opening the batting for Chann ten in the year.
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is we hope that
Speaker 2: we're successful, but there is a freshness to start in
Speaker 2: the year with christ and Julia and the same jokes,
Speaker 2: different cast, you know. And I think this year we
Speaker 2: were recovering from the COVID year. I mean remember this
Speaker 2: time last year, Ben, it was you know, the bushfires.
Speaker 2: It decimated the country. Every day there were the news
Speaker 2: was just dominated by more and more destruction and the
Speaker 2: habitatic destruction. And we'd recorded this hilarious cold open to
Speaker 2: the last season of un Celebrity involving green screens and
Speaker 2: Christian Julia doing something funny. And then the day before
Speaker 2: we went to where we just as a group went, well,
Speaker 2: hang on, we should just wave to Australia and say
Speaker 2: here we are, we're thinking of you. Maybe you can
Speaker 2: have a laugh, you know, and we did. We did
Speaker 2: something very simple like that. Christian Julia is saying, we're
Speaker 2: thinking of you. If we can do nothing else but
Speaker 2: make you laugh for the next hour and a half,
Speaker 2: then you know, hope you've done a bit and that,
Speaker 2: and that's how we were greeted. You know, Season six
Speaker 2: and seven have been to where in extraordinary circumstances, and
Speaker 2: so you know, it's just really pleasing that people have
Speaker 2: smiled at the program and they still like.
Speaker 1: It when things are tough in our own lives. I
Speaker 1: think it's important for television to be a place to
Speaker 1: go to and I think, you know, we do need
Speaker 1: to create content that continuously is the antidote for what's
Speaker 1: happening in our own personal life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, I mean one of the things
Speaker 2: that Arma Celebrity did, I think was it launched amit
Speaker 2: an era where high stakes was the core. In card
Speaker 2: of reality, everything had to be high stakes. You know,
Speaker 2: there was Jeopardy in high stakes in all the competitive
Speaker 2: building and cooking and weight loss programs. And this show
Speaker 2: is special because, as Richard Carl said, it's format self deprecating,
Speaker 2: and the host we can take the piss out of ourselves,
Speaker 2: we can make mistakes in point to it. And there
Speaker 2: is a stake there because people do want to do
Speaker 2: well in it. But basically we're just there to give
Speaker 2: people a laugh. So do we announce that you're in
Speaker 2: the next series. Do we do that now or do
Speaker 2: we disguise as something.
Speaker 1: I always think things happen in the order that they
Speaker 1: should come in. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like my serious answer is that he Sometimes it's not
Speaker 2: the person, it's just the timing, you know, like Richard
Speaker 2: Read for years would put his hand up and season two,
Speaker 2: three or four that wasn't That wasn't his year. But
Speaker 2: season five that was the perfect year. It just you
Speaker 2: just know. I can't even explain why you know what
Speaker 2: it is in the zeitgeist, but you just know. And
Speaker 2: so old Miguel for season six. So sometimes it's circumstance.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a lot of other but you know, I
Speaker 2: reckon you'd probably win it.
Speaker 1: We've got to finish the show on a high note
Speaker 1: with you, and I'm sure that you have so many
Speaker 1: different stories. But what's your go to story when you
Speaker 1: go out for dinner with people and they say, you know,
Speaker 1: what do you do for work? Do you have a
Speaker 1: fun story that gets a good laugh out of your friends.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a very short one which epitomizes what
Speaker 2: we've discussed, which is the two types of programs I
Speaker 2: made the terrible serious documentaries and then the frivolous, funny
Speaker 2: reality shows. And during any given day, you've got a
Speaker 2: series of meetings, you're fielding a series of phone calls,
Speaker 2: you're a series of WhatsApp group And it was last
Speaker 2: year there was a very weighty issue around the Immigration series.
Speaker 2: So I was in consultation with lawyers about the Privacy
Speaker 2: Act and immigration law, and then the phone was either
Speaker 2: ringing with that lawyer or was ringing with alex Or Trent,
Speaker 2: the head of Trials, And I think in the space
Speaker 2: of five minutes I became versed in immigration and privacy law.
Speaker 2: I also learned a lot about the viscosity of elephants,
Speaker 2: not so in the I'm a Celebrity lab they were
Speaker 2: trying to perfect slipperiness of snot because they had this Trials'
Speaker 2: snop coming out of an elephant and they couldn't quite
Speaker 2: get it slippery enough but thick enough, you know, And
Speaker 2: so you know, you know, you kind of look look
Speaker 2: down from Abovey's off and you go, it's a funny
Speaker 2: old job, isn't it. But in the space of minutes,
Speaker 2: I was trying to get my head around Claus nine
Speaker 2: of the Privacy Act and then the pressing issue was
Speaker 2: whether we could get the snots slippery enough. That's a
Speaker 2: day in my life.
Speaker 1: Did you give them any advice on what you could
Speaker 1: use for snot Well, Now this isn't.
Speaker 2: Mad scientist that that Alex Take's credit for. I mean,
Speaker 2: they are incredible people. One day we'll do the show
Speaker 2: behind the scenes. But if you look at how we
Speaker 2: eliminated Jack and Petty Flur, that's a piece of equipment
Speaker 2: that someone had to design so that they would just
Speaker 2: go in the air high enough and back enough and
Speaker 2: face you know you're going to break them, as you
Speaker 2: said before, So the level of engineering and planning that
Speaker 2: went into that, and it's just hilarious and something we
Speaker 2: will do for the next.
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say thank you so much
Speaker 1: for your time, for being so generous. I think there
Speaker 1: is a real thirst for wanting to know what happens
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, and it's just so fascinating to talk
Speaker 1: to you, who's so high up the ladder on people
Speaker 1: who are making content, so I think on behalf of
Speaker 1: people who got to hear all of your insights. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Been lovely to chat to you. Thanks for having me
Speaker 2: and keep up with the chats. We love beating these people.