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Speaker 1: We also know that from yesterday well, two people have

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Speaker 1: died in shootings in Darwin's northern suburbs. Investigations are underway

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Speaker 1: into the incidents in both Milner and Karama yesterday afternoon.

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Speaker 1: It's understood that a third person was injured in the

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Speaker 1: Milner incident and was taken to hospital. Police believe the

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Speaker 1: incidents are not related and say that there is no

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Speaker 1: risk to the public. Now joining me on the line

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Speaker 1: is the Minister for Police, Kate Warden.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you. Minister.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie, and it's very sad with the incidents overnight,

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Speaker 3: incredibly sad. Now I know obviously with the family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that there's not a lot that you

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Speaker 1: can say to us at this point. We know that

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Speaker 1: we are indeed in a situation where the police, I

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Speaker 1: believe providing a bit of an update around now. We're

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Speaker 1: due to catch up with the commander after ten o'clock

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Speaker 1: this morning. But it does sound like a terrible will

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Speaker 1: two separate terrible situations have unfolded.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very for our community, particularly here in Darwen. But

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Speaker 3: you know police have kept me informed overnight, Katie, and

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Speaker 3: as you say, they did the first opportunity last night

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Speaker 3: they did step out and provide some information to the

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Speaker 3: media and into unrelated incidents. Very sad in Carma and Milner.

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Speaker 3: I've had the same information as well that there was

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Speaker 3: no danger to the wider community at any time, and

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Speaker 3: that a couple of people have tragically lost their lives

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Speaker 3: and another is in hospital. But we do need to

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Speaker 3: also step aside and let the police continue their investigation,

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Speaker 3: which they are doing today, and they are absolutely committed

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Speaker 3: to making sure that the public are fully you know,

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Speaker 3: made aware of facts. I guess as they become a parent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, as I said, we are going to

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Speaker 1: be catching up with Sorry, the Acting Assistant Commissioner Matthew

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Speaker 1: Hollanby is going to be joining us on the show

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Speaker 1: just after ten o'clock. But Minister, there is a lot

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Speaker 1: to cover off on this morning, and the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: Police Association of just joined on the show and a

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Speaker 1: calling on the Northern Territory government to stop gambling with

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Speaker 1: public safety and stop creating more work for police by

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Speaker 1: expanding what they've described as cheap policing. It's in reference

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Speaker 1: to transit safety officers now having OC spray. I mean,

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Speaker 1: should we be expanding things like OC spray to transit

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Speaker 1: safety officers or should that actually be the role of police.

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Speaker 3: Look, we're not the only jurisdiction, Katie, that has rolled

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Speaker 3: out OC spray in transit. I believe in perhaps New

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Speaker 3: South Wales and Victoria. I think maybe two other jurisdictions

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Speaker 3: that have done that. But in terms of overall, in

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Speaker 3: terms of what Nathan and I did listen to his interview.

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Speaker 2: You know they're being a bit.

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Speaker 3: Anti everything at the moment, sadly, but that's second what

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Speaker 3: they're calling second tier policing. Public housing safety officers and

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Speaker 3: transit officers have been in place for a very very

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Speaker 3: long term time. I remember particularly public housing safety office

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Speaker 3: as were created under Chris Burns and you know he

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Speaker 3: obviously hasn't been in government for a very long time,

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Speaker 3: so those programs have been going for a considerable amount

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Speaker 3: of time.

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Speaker 1: Use, I mean the use of things like OHC spray

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Speaker 1: though are new like that is something that you know

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Speaker 1: that we rolled out yesterday.

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Speaker 3: Will make no apologies for it. We need to make

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Speaker 3: sure that people are take our public transport networks. If

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Speaker 3: we talk to you know, people into state and around Australia.

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Speaker 3: We need to make sure that people going to work,

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Speaker 3: you know that call has been made, are safe at work?

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Speaker 3: And that both equally for public transport safety officers. We

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Speaker 3: need to make sure that they are safe at work

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Speaker 3: and are able to de escalate situations. Obviously, police then

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Speaker 3: get called in, you know, if somebody is arrested, they

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Speaker 3: do have the power of arrest. But they've had the

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Speaker 3: power of arrest for a very long time, so what

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Speaker 3: Nathan is talking about is not new. But in terms

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Speaker 3: of the just to clarify all.

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Speaker 1: Those other states, Minister, in those other states, are the tsos,

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Speaker 1: are the transit safety officers sworn officers?

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Speaker 3: Like do?

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Speaker 1: They have to do more extensive training than what we're

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Speaker 1: expecting us here in the territory to do.

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Speaker 3: So they are doing nationally accredited training. We've made sure

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Speaker 3: of that. That's why the legislation was passed and then

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Speaker 3: that training was undertaken. So they're well trained, and we

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Speaker 3: have taken the guidance of police at every step that

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Speaker 3: we've taken. They have not been, you know, hands off

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Speaker 3: on this process. We have been working directly with police

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Speaker 3: to make sure that transit officers have the best training.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me done and dusted.

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Speaker 1: Minister, Can you tell me is the OC spray for

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Speaker 1: transit safety officers? Is it different to the one that

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Speaker 1: the police use.

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Speaker 3: So we've directly chosen a gel which doesn't have any overspray,

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Speaker 3: which makes it safer and it obviously doesn't affect people

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Speaker 3: around the intended target.

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Speaker 1: Now, what role will police then play when it comes

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Speaker 1: to investigating excessive use of force for that spray? And

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Speaker 1: is it going to add an extra burden too? What

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Speaker 1: is an already stretched force?

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Speaker 3: No, well, there's I did hear Nathan indicates that that's

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Speaker 3: police that will take up that if there's a complaint

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Speaker 3: of excessive force or you know, an assault, that's the

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Speaker 3: normal train that they.

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Speaker 2: Would go to.

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Speaker 3: That would be a police referral. But also there are

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Speaker 3: reviews undertaken through every single time that there is a

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Speaker 3: use of the OC spray by a transit officer, it

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Speaker 3: will be reviewed and not reviewed by police, reviewed within

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Speaker 3: DIPPLE and then externally if we require That process has

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Speaker 3: already been in place, so that process doesn't include police known.

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Speaker 1: Now, Minister he also made a fairly explosive comment about

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Speaker 1: the fact that that that private security that is being

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Speaker 1: utilized in places like Karama, that it is now moved

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Speaker 1: responsibilities moved from the Chief Minister's Office to the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory Police I mean, is that is that the right move?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: It is, Kay. So what we saw is we saw

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Speaker 3: the growth of private security funding coming out of the

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Speaker 3: Chief Minister's area and I have to say it wasn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily targeted and it needs to be targeted and reviewed.

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Speaker 3: We are reviewing it at the moment it's come across

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Speaker 3: to police. It came across on the first of July.

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Speaker 3: I won't make any excuses about that. That's a bucket

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Speaker 3: of funding that goes to private security. We've now got

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Speaker 3: the Territory Coordination Center sitting at at Ferramah looking at

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Speaker 3: hotspots etc. For antisocial behavior and they can now review

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Speaker 3: those contracts with a view to data which informs us

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Speaker 3: to make sure that any private security in the future

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Speaker 3: goes is targeted into areas that actually need it.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned that it does or could potentially open

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police Force up though two complaints if

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Speaker 1: somebody does act in an unlawful way.

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Speaker 3: Both security contracts have been in place for quite some time, Katie,

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Speaker 3: and if there's complaints about them, they already would come

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Speaker 3: to police if they allege, you know, unlawful behavior. What

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Speaker 3: it's done, is it Those contracts coming across gives us

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to pause and have a look and align

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Speaker 3: any security money into the future where actual data shows

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Speaker 3: us that antisocial behavior is occurring. So for example, if

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Speaker 3: I can give you an example of that, Let's say

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Speaker 3: we put security into a particular area. Say we put

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Speaker 3: it into Culumbay, and I'm using an anecdotal example here.

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Speaker 3: Let's say that that crime continue, you know, was driven down,

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Speaker 3: it was only at one stage, but then you have

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Speaker 3: a security company working in that area for another six months.

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Speaker 3: That would be considered in my view, a waste, especially

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Speaker 3: if we can target them better in other places. So

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Speaker 3: we need to make sure that those of security contracts

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Speaker 3: are driven by evidence based on where antisocial behavior is

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Speaker 3: actually occurring and we make the best use of territory money.

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Speaker 1: So where is that funding coming from. Is that funding

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Speaker 1: coming from like from the police budget or where's the

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Speaker 1: funding coming from.

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Speaker 3: So it's additional funding that's come across on the first

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Speaker 3: of July into our bucket from the Chief Minister's area. Okay,

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Speaker 3: the office of the Chief Minister, not the Chief Minister's Office.

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Speaker 3: There's two different areas.

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Speaker 2: Minister.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of people are going to be

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Speaker 1: listening though and thinking to themselves, this is a band

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Speaker 1: aid solution when we actually need to tackle the issue

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Speaker 1: of crime rather than having to employ private security guards,

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Speaker 1: rather than having to use oc sprat.

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Speaker 3: Can I be really clear. We have been doing private

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Speaker 3: security and funding private security and places like the city

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Speaker 3: for a number of years now, and that does give

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Speaker 3: people some comfort walking through the city when they see

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Speaker 3: those private security members coming through. And I know that

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Speaker 3: it's the same in Alice Springs, so they played an

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Speaker 3: important part in community safety. What I'm saying is we're

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Speaker 3: reviewing the us of that funding to see if there's

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Speaker 3: a better use for it, and west driving that review

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Speaker 3: is police. It's really important that we look at it

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Speaker 3: and poor and make sure that it's targeted funding to

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Speaker 3: get a good outcome in terms of community safety. It's

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Speaker 3: not a band aid solution. It's part of a much

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Speaker 3: border system. And when you talk about how you stop

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Speaker 3: crime happening in the first place, that's a considerable piece

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Speaker 3: of work working in the DV area because that constitutes

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Speaker 3: a majority of our of our crime. We need to

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Speaker 3: make sure that we are working to stop people offending

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Speaker 3: in the first place, and that means looking at all

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Speaker 3: those other areas like poverty, family dysfunction, making sure people

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Speaker 3: are returning, you know, in time back to communities that

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Speaker 3: were addressing over crowding and housing. That's a huge body

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Speaker 3: of work that we never ever hear the opposition or

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Speaker 3: you know, the Police Association talk about. But that's the

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Speaker 3: body of work that we are continuing to grind that

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Speaker 3: every day. At the same time looking at making I'm

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Speaker 3: sure our police are adequately resourced, and you know, the

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Speaker 3: fact is that we are looking at resourcing and staffing

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Speaker 3: in the police through the review. So for the Police

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Speaker 3: Association to say that we're ignoring the resourcing and staffing

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Speaker 3: within the police is completely wrong. That review will we

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Speaker 3: have committed to making sure that we will you know,

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Speaker 3: stump up when that review findings come down in those recommendations.

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Speaker 3: We'll listen to what the review has to say. So

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Speaker 3: we're working bloody hard every day to make a difference.

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Speaker 1: And Minister, I mean, we keep hearing that from the government.

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Speaker 1: The public keeps saying to me, Katie, we keep hearing

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Speaker 1: from the government that they're working really hard on this

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Speaker 1: or that and various other things. Of no doubt that

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Speaker 1: you are, but for a lot of people they just

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Speaker 1: feel as though things are not getting better. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when you look at the fact that on Thursday afternoon

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Speaker 1: last week we had an alleged sexual assault at two

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Speaker 1: thirty in the afternoon in the Darwin City. We also

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Speaker 1: know that over the weekend there were mine workers that

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Speaker 1: had to barricade themselves in to their mind because there

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Speaker 1: was people trying to get in and assaulted. There are

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Speaker 1: incidents happening right around the Northern Territory at the moment

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Speaker 1: that have got people very worried that you've got no control, Katie.

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Speaker 3: There are incidents of crime accruing across Australia and in

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Speaker 3: fact the world at any given time. We are all

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Speaker 3: a very connected community and we hear about these things,

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Speaker 3: whether it's on a social media PC's that.

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Speaker 2: We're ever connected.

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Speaker 1: Though it's not because we're connected, Minister, it's because it's

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Speaker 1: not in a.

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Speaker 3: Good way right now, connected, Katie.

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Speaker 1: So you don't reckon there's been an increase in crime,

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Speaker 1: You reckon it's just because we're connected.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, there's been an increase in crime. There's been an

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Speaker 3: increase in crime in the Northern Territory. My head is

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Speaker 3: not in the fan. I'm absolutely aware of it, as

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Speaker 3: are our police. That's why we need to make sure

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Speaker 3: that they are well resourced to respond to that crime.

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Speaker 3: And Katie, our jails are full. The police do an

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Speaker 3: amazing job here in the Northern Territory of arresting people

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Speaker 3: and getting on top of those instances as they occur.

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Speaker 3: The majority of crime here in Northern Territory is people

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Speaker 3: being assaulted through domestic and family violence, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of that is driven by alcohol. We continue to do

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Speaker 3: a lot of work in that space. You can't ignore

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Speaker 3: that and then just pop on.

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Speaker 1: About No one's saying that you should ignore that. No

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Speaker 1: one's saying that you should ignore that. But what people

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Speaker 1: are saying is that the government's been in power for

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Speaker 1: seven years and it doesn't seem to be getting better.

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Speaker 2: That's what people are saying right now, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We have got programs in place across every single level

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Speaker 3: that we are constantly reviewing. We are picking up with

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Speaker 3: families on an increasing number of families that are dysfunctional

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Speaker 3: every day. A lot of this is driven by poverty

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Speaker 3: and all of those things so we're working at that

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Speaker 3: level against those sorts of things, the drivers of crime

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Speaker 3: in the first place. And at the same time we've

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Speaker 3: got police working incredibly hard on the front line, and

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Speaker 3: we are looking to make sure that we're resourcing them.

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Speaker 3: That's the way you do it. You have to get

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Speaker 3: in front of the curve. Maybe we haven't got there yet.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot of hard, hard work over a lot

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Speaker 3: of time, because you can't fix social dysfunction overnight, you

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Speaker 3: just can't, Katie. And we can't say that it'll be

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Speaker 3: done in a seven year time frame either. We know

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Speaker 3: in place all of that work to work with families.

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Speaker 3: We've got all the child interventions occurring right the way

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Speaker 3: across the Northern Territory, right the way out to remote

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Speaker 3: and all those challenges we've got. It's very very hard

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Speaker 3: work and it's done by a lot of different government agencies,

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Speaker 3: US with polleagues.

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Speaker 1: We will move along because because you know, I know

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Speaker 1: that we've got differing views on this, so we will

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Speaker 1: move along.

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Speaker 2: But I do want to ask you.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the wanding, but I

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Speaker 1: also firstly want to ask we've had a few listeners

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Speaker 1: get in contact with us saying Hi, Katie. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's been discussed this is one of the messages,

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Speaker 1: but the ABC Full Corners I was doing an episode

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Speaker 1: on an overreach of private security in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: and on the buses in particular, there was an incident

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Speaker 1: recently where a security guard used unnecessary force. I won't

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Speaker 1: read the rest of that out because I don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly what has gone on, But Minister, are you aware

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Speaker 1: of this and is that something that's going to be happening, Katie?

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Speaker 3: I am. I am aware of those allegations. I have

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Speaker 3: heard them, and let me say this, if they're true,

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Speaker 3: it's appalling behavior by those journalists. I know our local

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Speaker 3: journalists have a lot more integrity than that. I my

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Speaker 3: understanding that they are alleged to be creating hostile and

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Speaker 3: aggressive situations, and they're creating those that's appalling behavior, whether

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Speaker 3: it's security guards or our police. They have got an

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Speaker 3: incredibly tough job as it is, without you know, them

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Speaker 3: coming those journalists coming along and making it even harder

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Speaker 3: for them stirring up trouble in our community.

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Speaker 2: So what I reckon they've done? Do you reckon that?

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Speaker 2: The do you reckon that the kind of like Mack

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Speaker 2: breaking here.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I believe that if the allegations that I'm hearing

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Speaker 3: are true, then we need to call out that behavior.

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Speaker 3: We do not see that by our local journalists, and

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Speaker 3: you know that, but they are. My understanding is that

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Speaker 3: they are allegedly creating situation. You know, providing pizza for

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Speaker 3: comment is one of the ones I've heard. I've also

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Speaker 3: my understanding is that they've driven somebody around to where

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Speaker 3: they've had a previous confrontation with security guards and they've

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Speaker 3: actually orchestrated you know, that person locking up and trying

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Speaker 3: to antagonize the situation to occur. It's unethical. If those

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Speaker 3: allegations are true, it's unethical behavior, and I would believe

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Speaker 3: it would reach the code that all journalists I know

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Speaker 3: subscribe to, and we need to make sure that we're

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Speaker 3: calling it out. So so you see where that goes.

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Speaker 3: But that I am hearing those allegations, and if they

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Speaker 3: are true, it's a calling.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds to me like if that is what happens,

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Speaker 1: that you're going to be making a complaint. Are you

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Speaker 1: certainly going to be pretty pretty angry about it?

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Speaker 3: Well, we've seen it before, particularly by a number of

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Speaker 3: national programs, and they come to the territory, they do

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Speaker 3: that sort of thing, and then they leave and they

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Speaker 3: leave our community in term or we've been used by them,

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Speaker 3: and I would hate to think that's the situation here.

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Speaker 3: But if it does turn out that the allegations are correct,

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Speaker 3: then of course we all need to call them out,

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Speaker 3: including the local media, Katie, because you know, this does

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Speaker 3: leave a scar on the integrity of you know, our

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Speaker 3: good journalists locally.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have seen different situations before. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: saw one in Alla Springs a little while back where

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Speaker 1: there was you know, where there was a public meeting

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Speaker 1: held and it was insinuated that the people who'd attended

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Speaker 1: that public meeting were racist and all sorts of other things,

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Speaker 1: when it was a group of people who are actually

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Speaker 1: pretty concerned about issues that were having with crime. But Minister,

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Speaker 1: I do want to just ask you as well about

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Speaker 1: the wanding. We know that that wanding obviously rolled out

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Speaker 1: in Catherine and Alice Springs about a week ago, but

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Speaker 1: I understand it's now happening in Darwin and Alice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. So we have we've seen that happen

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Speaker 3: and we have seen you know that it's had some

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Speaker 3: success in picking up things like scissors and also an

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Speaker 3: axe that's out in Alice Springs. Yeah, so we have

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Speaker 3: begun that operation, and I think the message is extremely clear.

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Speaker 3: Don't go in public, in fact, don't go under all.

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Speaker 3: You know, people shouldn't be carrying weapons around on them

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Speaker 3: on themselves, and this is just another piece of the

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Speaker 3: puzzle we need to do, you know, a whole range

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Speaker 3: of these activities. I did also want to clarify that

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Speaker 3: Nathan was talking earlier about them not having the power

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Speaker 3: if police have a reasonable suspicion, they still have that anywhere,

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Speaker 3: they have the ability to search people. If they have

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Speaker 3: a WAND on them, they actually can will they actually

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Speaker 3: able to use it. It's far less intrusive. A wanding

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Speaker 3: activity in itself does need to be either in a

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Speaker 3: high risk area or another area that's declared by a

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Speaker 3: senior sergeant, or in some areas it does need to

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Speaker 3: be declared by the commissioner. But those processes can be

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Speaker 3: quickly done if we suspect that activity is occurring in

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Speaker 3: particular areas. But police still have that power to search,

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Speaker 3: and if they do have a WAND that's accessible, they

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Speaker 3: are able to use the wand it's far less intrusive.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we are already chatting. I'm chatting to

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Speaker 3: the Police Commissioner about whether you know it could become

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Speaker 3: more accessible for everyday frontline policing minister.

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Speaker 1: Before I let you go, the rumors arrive at the

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Speaker 1: moment that there's going to be a cabinet reshuffle, is there.

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Speaker 3: Not? To my knowledge at this point, Katie, And I'll

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Speaker 3: be very frank, you guys be the last to know.

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Speaker 3: I'd hope i'd know first.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well so would I. But you never know sometimes.

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Speaker 1: And we've had a few people message about that, wondering

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Speaker 1: and asking whether it is happening.

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Speaker 2: So will there be one? Do you reckon before the election?

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Speaker 3: Oh, Katie, I hate to speculate. That's the job of

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Speaker 3: the Chief Minister. It's not my job. I know that

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Speaker 3: I love my job. I love It's an absolute privilege

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Speaker 3: to serve territory and being a minister in a government

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Speaker 3: is more than a privilege, you know, it's a lifetime.

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Speaker 3: It's once in a lifetime and I just am just

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Speaker 3: getting on with loving doing my job and working you know,

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Speaker 3: with the police and territory families to get change in

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Speaker 3: our community that they so much want.

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Speaker 1: Minister, we are going to have to leave it there.

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Speaker 1: I always appreciate your time. Thank you very much for

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Speaker 1: joining us on the show.

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Speaker 3: Never a Problem, Katie, thanks for having me on today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you