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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday on the show, I read for You a report

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Speaker 2: by the ABC about imprisonment rates in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: According to that report, one judge is calling for a

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Speaker 2: radical rethink presiding over some of the worst categories of

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Speaker 2: offending in the Northern Territory. Supreme Court Judge Jenny Blocklin's

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Speaker 2: been afforded a unique view of how justice is served

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Speaker 2: and her estimates were sobering. They are the words of

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Speaker 2: Letitia Lemke from the ABC Now. The judge had told

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Speaker 2: community leaders at a public lecture at Charles Darwin University. Then,

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Speaker 2: imprisonment and the significant use of it in Australia and

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Speaker 2: in the Northern Territory is a wicked problem for many

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Speaker 2: of us. That is what the justice had said at

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Speaker 2: that lecture at Charles Darwin Uni Now. According to the

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Speaker 2: report from the ABC, in the Northern Territory, more than

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Speaker 2: one percent of the population is currently behind bars and

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Speaker 2: defender rates are more than double any other jurisdiction in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Justice reform advocates describe the crime crisis as dire. One

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Speaker 2: of those advocates, Aboriginal leader and co chair of the

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal Justice Agreement, Olga Havnan joins me on the line.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Olga, Good morning Katie. Thanks so

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Speaker 2: much for your time this morning, now, Olga. The comments

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Speaker 2: by the Northern Territory Supreme Court Judge Jenny Blocklin I've

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Speaker 2: raised the eyebrows of some listeners who've been victims of crime.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think there needs to be a rethink

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Speaker 2: when it comes to imprisonment in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I would say is that clearly

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Speaker 1: it's not working. Simply, you know, arresting more people, locking

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Speaker 1: them up, detaining them hasn't made the community any safer

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Speaker 1: or any anybody's any better off. And I think there

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Speaker 1: are really good examples internationally where different approaches have been

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Speaker 1: taken and they're delivering much better results and outcomes.

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Speaker 2: So what kind of alternatives might you might there be

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Speaker 2: rather than prison time? And what is some of what's

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Speaker 2: happening in other locations around the world.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Look, the first thing I would say is this

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Speaker 1: has been happening for a long time where different jurisdictions,

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Speaker 1: different countries have been looking at alternative approaches other than incarceration,

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Speaker 1: because we know that locking people up is highly expensive

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Speaker 1: and it really doesn't seem to work, and particularly here

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Speaker 1: in the territory, when so many people go on to

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Speaker 1: reoffend and end up back in jail. So it's sort

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Speaker 1: of like this recycling of people in an out of

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Speaker 1: prison system that simply isn't delivering a better outcome places

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Speaker 1: like the Netherlands. And I'll give you another good example Texas,

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Speaker 1: for example, in the US, which had a notorious reputation

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Speaker 1: for high rates of incarceration, and in fact, since about

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven in Texas, they realized that they

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Speaker 1: would have to create an additional seventeen thousand places if

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Speaker 1: they were going to continue to imprison people at the

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Speaker 1: rates that they were. I mean, that's an extraordinary numbers.

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Speaker 1: But what the government of the day he decided to

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Speaker 1: do was that instead of building prisons or new prisons,

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Speaker 1: was that they built cross party support and they embarked

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Speaker 1: on a two billion dollar project to reform their justice system.

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Speaker 1: So the prison population fell by fifteen percent, more than

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Speaker 1: sixteen dials were closed, and the crime rate fell by

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Speaker 1: an astonishing thirty percent that was the lowest level since

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight. So the imprisonment population also fell by

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Speaker 1: seventeen percent and their approach, Sorry you go. Their approach

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Speaker 1: was really was to incentivize prisoners to develop skills, to

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Speaker 1: take up learning, education, training opportunities, and then to take

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Speaker 1: up employment. And by doing that you actually had people

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Speaker 1: doing things that were constructive, productive, and rewarding not just

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Speaker 1: for the individual offender, but also for the broader community.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me that so many Aboriginal people who

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Speaker 1: end up in our prisons do not have basic skills,

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Speaker 1: they have almost zero chants of employment, quite often have

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Speaker 1: complex health problems, drug and alcohol problems. We're challenged by

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Speaker 1: really extraordinarily high rates of domestic and family violence. So

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Speaker 1: until we start to address some of those things, we're

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Speaker 1: just going to end up spending more and more money

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Speaker 1: on jails and not necessarily making our communities any safer.

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Speaker 2: So in Texas, I mean, what did they do that

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Speaker 2: was different? Were they doing programs, did they have sort

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Speaker 2: of I don't know, like education facilities open? How did

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Speaker 2: it work differently?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think the first thing was that they were

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Speaker 1: able to build this cross party support so that there

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Speaker 1: was a genuine political commitment from all sides of politics

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Speaker 1: to tackle this problem. And Texas, for anybody that's familiar

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Speaker 1: with that state is notoriously hard. It's very conservative. There's

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Speaker 1: always been a strong sense, you know, punishment is the

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Speaker 1: way to solve a problem like this, but by building

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Speaker 1: that sort of cross party support and informing their decision

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Speaker 1: making about what could you do differently, they relied very

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Speaker 1: heavily on some international evidence about what works. And it

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Speaker 1: seems to me that the Northern Territory could well take

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Speaker 1: on board some of those lessons and some of that approach.

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Speaker 1: I would much rather see money being spent on the

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Speaker 1: health system, on education, on infrastructure and other services, rather

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Speaker 1: than even contemplating spending another two or three billion dollars

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Speaker 1: to build more prisons. I mean, this is ridiculous, Olgi.

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Speaker 2: You touched on this before. We know a large number

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Speaker 2: of people in prison in the Northern Territory are in

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Speaker 2: there for domestic violence related offenses. What impact do you

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Speaker 2: think that it could have on victims if people are

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Speaker 2: not doing time in jail for some of those serious offenses,

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Speaker 2: or at least you know, having a bit of a

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Speaker 2: circuit breaker where a victim is away from those who

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Speaker 2: against them.

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Speaker 1: Look absolutely and I think you know, looking after people

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Speaker 1: and providing assurance and guarantees for people's personal safety is

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Speaker 1: absolutely paramount. But whilst people are in prison doing time

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Speaker 1: for DV and violent offenses, they are not getting access

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Speaker 1: to therapeutical rehabilitation services. So effectively, all you're doing is

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Speaker 1: taking them off the street, locking them up under what

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Speaker 1: I would describe as fairly harsh and horrid conditions. The

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Speaker 1: level of overcrowding in our prisons is who rip it?

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Speaker 1: But we don't do anything productive with people. And if

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Speaker 1: we can't change people's behaviors and attitudes and you know,

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Speaker 1: find ways of working them that effectively breaks that cycle

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Speaker 1: of family violence, then we're not going anywhere. But if

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Speaker 1: you analyze, well, how many of those people who committed

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Speaker 1: DV offenses were also affected by drug and alcohol at

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Speaker 1: the same time? So what are we doing here? Algo?

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Speaker 2: Yesterday when I read this story out, there was people

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Speaker 2: messaging in in droves saying, how can we compare ourselves

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Speaker 2: to a place like the Netherlands for example. You know,

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Speaker 2: we have a very different population here in the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 2: as has been pointed out. We know that a large

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Speaker 2: portion of those who are incarcerated are Aboriginal people, and

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Speaker 2: we know we've got really high rates of crime in

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Speaker 2: the NT.

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Speaker 1: Look, all of that is absolutely true, but at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, we're talking about people and human beings.

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Speaker 1: You know, our needs and wants are the same regardless

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Speaker 1: of where we come from. Remote communities have largely been

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Speaker 1: neglected over the last you know, two or three decades.

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Speaker 1: The level of overcrowding out bush in remote housing is appalling.

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Speaker 1: We have some of the highest rates since you know,

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Speaker 1: alcohol consumption almost anywhere in the world, yet we appear

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Speaker 1: not to want to tackle this supply and availability of alcohol.

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Speaker 1: We also know that we've got fairly high rates of

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Speaker 1: drug taking kind of behavior in our community. We do

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Speaker 1: very little there. In terms of rehabilitation services, I think

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Speaker 1: the opportunity for the courts to make therapeutic orders for people,

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Speaker 1: which might also include by the way, you know that

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Speaker 1: you must attend some sort of training or employment, you know,

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Speaker 1: develop some skills, and that you should also, as part

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Speaker 1: of your release from prison, be guided and supported to

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Speaker 1: enter into the workforce. At the moment where you have

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Speaker 1: a criminal conviction, it makes it very difficult for people

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Speaker 1: to find employment. Almost every job requires you to have

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Speaker 1: a police check. So you know, I'm listening to address

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Speaker 1: some of those barriers and impediments. This is not going

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Speaker 1: to change. And I'm not saying that. You know, the

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Speaker 1: rights of victims need also to be taken into account.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the big things that we certainly hear

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Speaker 2: on this show very often is we've got a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that listen to the show who are victims

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Speaker 2: of crime, and a lot of those listeners yesterday, had

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Speaker 2: you had said, after I'd read this story the last

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Speaker 2: years of the former government, you know, they tried to

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Speaker 2: do things differently and it didn't work. I mean, what

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Speaker 2: would you say to those listeners who are thinking to

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Speaker 2: themselves this morning. We'll hang on a second. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can tell me all you want that jailing's failing,

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Speaker 2: but we are continuing to see these record rates of

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Speaker 2: people being locked up. We're continuing to see record rates

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Speaker 2: of crime, despite the fact that the former Labor government

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Speaker 2: had said that we needed these programs in place and

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Speaker 2: had tried to go down that path.

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Speaker 1: First of all, to the point about yes, we've tried

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Speaker 1: certain programs, I don't think there was enough of an

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Speaker 1: investment into having those alternative programs. So for example, you know,

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Speaker 1: community based orders that required a whole lot of investment,

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Speaker 1: both in the court system and the ability to supervise people.

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Speaker 1: But we've also done very little in terms of, as

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Speaker 1: I say, addressing housing or employment or skills development. There

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Speaker 1: really hasn't been a concerted effort there. The other comment

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Speaker 1: I would mat Katie is that if people think the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory is rocking and rolling, I'd suggest they have

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Speaker 1: a look at and I hate to say it, but

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Speaker 1: you know, the Gold Coast or anywhere in Queensland, Western Australia.

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Speaker 1: These are very similar patterns of what we're seeing across

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Speaker 1: the country. So it suggests to me that it's the

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Speaker 1: entire justice system, regardless of which state you live in,

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Speaker 1: is having very similar sort of challenges. So surely this

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Speaker 1: is the time, you know, for people to get together,

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Speaker 1: put aside political differences, and let's invest the resources and

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Speaker 1: the commitment to do things differently and to do things

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Speaker 1: better if they are able to do it. In Texas,

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Speaker 1: I could suggest very strongly that there are some real

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Speaker 1: lessons there that could be learned. We can adapt and

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Speaker 1: model things here in a way to meet local needs

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Speaker 1: and circumstances, and really put genuine cross party support and

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Speaker 1: commitment here to addressing this old.

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Speaker 2: Where are we at at the moment with the Aboriginal

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Speaker 2: Justice Agreement? Just while I've got you on obviously as

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Speaker 2: the co chair, well.

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Speaker 1: I was the coach here. I'm not sure where no, unfunately,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure what the status of the Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: Justice Agreement actually is. So it's a really good question

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Speaker 1: that you ask. I would I would hope that this

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Speaker 1: might be an opportunity to get all of the political

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Speaker 1: parties together to find a way forward, because, like I say,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is not an intractable problem. You know

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Speaker 1: there are solutions and there are better ways of addressing it.

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Speaker 1: Would like to see I have perhaps a new way forward,

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Speaker 1: revive the Aboriginal Justice Agreement. Let's see if we can't

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Speaker 1: get cross parties support to try to have those commitments

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Speaker 1: to reducing the levels of incarceration while at the same

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Speaker 1: time still holding people to account to their behavior. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that you let people off the hook.

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Speaker 1: You don't, but I do think that there are things

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Speaker 1: that we could do and should do, and to give

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Speaker 1: the pharmacy orp governments some credit. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: it was who introduced the sentence to a job to

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Speaker 1: do a bit of a review and evaluation of that

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Speaker 1: about how it worked. But it seemed to me that

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Speaker 1: perhaps that was one initiative that could be revived.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: Also, we really need to get people into the workforce.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I agree, I do think you need to

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Speaker 2: you know, people need to have jobs. There needs to

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Speaker 2: be opportunity. But the point you made there as well

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Speaker 2: is that you're not suggesting that people be left off

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Speaker 2: the hook if they do the wrong thing. It's I

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Speaker 2: think it's a really important one for our listeners to

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Speaker 2: hear because sometimes when you have these discussions, you know,

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Speaker 2: they think, all right, well, what's going to happen if

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Speaker 2: somebody breaks the law? Are they going to be let go?

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Speaker 2: But you know, the fact is, if we have got

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Speaker 2: someone who's a serious violent offender, there is definitely a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of work that needs to happen, and there

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Speaker 2: does need to be a consequence I would think to

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Speaker 2: their action absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with that about the

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Speaker 1: need for consequences and accountability. What we know is that

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Speaker 1: if you do, you know, victim offender conferencing, particularly in

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Speaker 1: circumstances where it's appropriate and you need to feel safe

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Speaker 1: to be able to do it. Holding people to account

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Speaker 1: for the impact of their behavior is a really powerful tool.

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Speaker 1: You know, that sense of shame, the need to own

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Speaker 1: you know, your behavior and your thing, but to really

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Speaker 1: understand what impact that that has had on individuals, adults,

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Speaker 1: and families and households surely gives people cause to rethink

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Speaker 1: some of their behavior. We know that you get much

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Speaker 1: better outcomes when you can do that Victim offender conferencing

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Speaker 1: and it's a very powerful tool. So you know, those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things seem to have a greater deterrence rather

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Speaker 1: than simply just locking people up.

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Speaker 2: Well, Olga Haven, we are going to have to leave

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Speaker 2: it there, Aboriginal Leader. We really appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having a chat with us.

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Speaker 1: Lovely thanks Katie, all of us, you two