1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my favorite tip episode where I 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. Today's extract is from my 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: chat with Professor Scott Sunenshein. Scott is a New York 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: Times best selling author and professor of management at Rice University. 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: I came across Scott's work quite a few months ago 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: when I read his second book, Joy at Work. Scott 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: wrote Joy at Work with best selling author and Netflix 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: star Marie Kondo, who's cleaning methods I've used in my 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: own home over the years, and you tube might have 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: come across marie condo as well. So Enjoy at Work 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: Scott and Marie offers story study and strategies to help 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: you eliminate clutter and make space for the work that 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: really matters. There are actually two my favorite tip episodes 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: that I have edited with Scott, so this is one 18 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: around how to dramatically improve meetings. So I think you'll 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: really like this extract if you are struggling with meetings, 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: or if you've got too many of them, or if 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: they're too long or too inefficient. So Scott has a 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: bunch of different strategies that you can use to improve 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: the meetings that you're running at also the meetings that 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: you're attending. So let's head on over to Scott. 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's an important distinction we have in the 26 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: book between running a meeting and attending a meeting, And 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: let's talk about the attending a meeting because that's the 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: position that most people find themselves in where they get 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: invitations to go to things and some of them are required, 30 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: they're even the ones that are optional are sort of required. 31 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Then it might look bad if they don't go. So 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: the first thing that we do is you have to 33 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: really get a sense of what the problem looks like 34 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: and realize how much of your time are you actually 35 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: spending in meetings, because what happens is they take half 36 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: an hour on Monday, a couple of hours on Tuesday, 37 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: and they add up over time and you don't realize it. So, 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: just like when you're going through the con Marie method 39 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 2: and you're taking all of the clothes in your closet 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: and you're putting them in a big heap of a 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 2: pile on your bed, and then going through each one 42 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: and realizing I got thirty shirts. I don't think I 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: really need thirty shirts. You do the same with your meetings, 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: and I like to say, put them on an index card. 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: Then have each index card represent a meeting and write 46 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: down shortly in a sentence what the purpose of the 47 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: meeting is, and then go through the same process metaphorically 48 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: where you pick up each index card. Then you ask 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 2: yourself essentially three questions. One is going to this meeting 50 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: really necessary? It might be necessary because it's important than 51 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: for your job, or sometimes you're just forced to go 52 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: out of factors that are outside of your control, and 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: that's just the reality of many people's jobs. So those 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: are the meetings that you're going to want to keep anyway. Secondly, 55 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: you ask yourself, does going to this meeting move me 56 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: any closer to the joyful future at work that I 57 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: want my ideal work life? Am I going to learn something? 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: Is this meeting going to build connection and foster relationships? 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: Is it going to advance my career? So those are 60 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: all good reasons to keep going to a meeting. And 61 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: then finally the third question is does this meeting bring 62 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: me more joy? And there are some times when we 63 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: get together as a group, and I think a lot 64 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: of people are feeling this right now in the pandemic, 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: when social connection is much harder, where you just want 66 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: to go there for that connection and that enrichment or 67 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: that interaction or these meetings are so generative because they're 68 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: sparking lots of ideas and creativity or your accomplishing a 69 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: lot of work, and those are certainly meetings that you 70 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: also want to keep. So you go through these three 71 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: key criteria, and then you have a pile of the 72 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: meetings that you're going to keep and then the ones 73 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: that you're going to try to go out of. And 74 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: that's where some of the hard work happens, because it's 75 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: quite frankly, it's difficult to go to a meeting organizer 76 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 2: and say, well, you're not going to say this meeting 77 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: doesn't bring me joy, but you're going to do it 78 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: in more diplomatic ways to try and get out of 79 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 2: the meetings and maybe talk about how you don't feel 80 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: like you have anything to contribute to the meeting, and 81 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: you know, a couple of things might happen. The meeting 82 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: organizer might say, you know what, you're right, The direction 83 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: of this group and how we meet has kind of 84 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: evolved over time, and maybe you are not the most 85 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: relevant person, or maybe the meeting organizer says to you, you 86 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 2: know what, maybe we've been underutilizing you and I haven't 87 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: realized that, you know, we could be running our meeting 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: in a different way, and maybe that brings you joy 89 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: and realizing that you're appreciated in ways that you didn't realize. 90 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 2: But you never get to these types of conversations by 91 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: just resigning yourself and defaulting to the meetings on my calendar. 92 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: I have to keep it. 93 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's I imagine it's probably a 94 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: really challenging conversation for listeners to have with their boss 95 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: or the meeting organizer. I'm lucky in that I don't 96 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: have a boss, so I guess I've got a bit 97 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: of freedom there. But it is challenging, Like, what have 98 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: you seen or heard from readers in terms of what 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: are like aside from those ways that you've mentioned, how 100 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: else are they getting out of meetings? 101 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: Like? 102 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: For example, I'm imagining a close girlfriend of mine who 103 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: works at one of the big banks here in Australia, 104 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: and I feel like her life is meetings zoom meetings 105 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 1: right now from eight am to six pm, sometimes later. 106 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: And I kind of I think about her when I 107 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: think about that meetings chapter actually, and I'm like, goodness, 108 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: she needs to tidy up her meetings. But how is 109 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: she going to do that because of all the poll 110 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: takes a play in the bank. 111 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and politics are what really gets us into trouble. 112 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 2: And I think it actually starts with ourselves before we 113 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: even think about how we interact with other people. And 114 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: what I mean by that is we have a sense 115 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: of meeting fomo, this fear of missing out that if 116 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: we don't have a seat at the table, it means 117 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: that we're not worthwhile, or we're going to miss out 118 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: on an important decision. Or the person who attends the 119 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: most meetings, they're the person who everyone thinks is working 120 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,559 Speaker 2: the hardest, when the reality is meetings are not really 121 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: a way of keeping score. They're a way of getting 122 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: work done. And if you're not getting work done in 123 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: a meeting, it's not worth going to. So I think 124 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: the first thing we need to do is just get 125 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: out of our head of our sense of fear that 126 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: we're going to just miss out if we're not there 127 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: in either a decision or in terms of what other 128 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: people think of us, and realize that there's lots of 129 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: ways of making contributions. And then the second thing to 130 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 2: do is to then start interacting with the meeting organizer 131 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 2: and realize that you know, for a variety of reasons, 132 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: you know you might be asked to go to this 133 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: meeting that don't really make sense anymore. Maybe you've always 134 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: attended but the direction of the meeting has changed, or 135 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: maybe people feel like you want to be involved when 136 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: you don't need to be involved in this specific aspect. 137 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: So what I like to tell people is start by 138 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: asking for an agenda, and that's going to accomplish a 139 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: couple of things. The first is it's going to start 140 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: a dialogue. And that's what a lot of this is, 141 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: because you're right that in a lot of our work lives, 142 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: we don't have control. We work for other people and 143 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: we work with other people, and we can't just decide 144 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: to opt out. So when we ask for an agenda, 145 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: we start a conversation that allows us to better evaluate 146 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: whether or not this is really a meeting truly worth 147 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: going for, and if the meeting organizer doesn't have an agenda. 148 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: That's a pretty bad sign. And you can polite we 149 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: ask back and say, well, would you mind sending an 150 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: agenda so I can better prepare. And if they still 151 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: can't give you that agenda, again, that's a big red 152 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: flag and you're going to want to try and get 153 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: out of that meeting. If they send the agenda though, 154 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: and that agenda looks like, well, there's not much I 155 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: can contribute here. You can politely suggest, well, maybe someone 156 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: in this other group or this other area of the 157 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: company might be better suited for the meeting, and here's why, 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: and I'd recommend them. Or you can simply say, you know, 159 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: given my scope of knowledge and responsibilities, I might not 160 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: be the best fit for this, but you know, help 161 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: me understand maybe you're seeing something I'm not. I'm happy 162 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,359 Speaker 2: to come if you feel like I have a contribution, 163 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: but help me understand how I can best help. And 164 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 2: once we have these conversations, I think we can kind 165 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: of come to terms about those meetings that are most 166 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: helpful for us to go to. 167 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: I personally find that agenda strategy really helpful. Something that 168 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: we do with my tamment invent him and I actually 169 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: got this trick from Brian Scrutemore, who's the co founder 170 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: and CEO of one eight hundred Got Junk, and I 171 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: interviewed him on the podcast quite a while ago, and 172 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: something that he does. He has this thing at his 173 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: organization where he says all meetings have to have a 174 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: payer or a poet, which basically stands for purpose, agenda, outcomes, 175 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: and he says if there's no poet, it's no goer. 176 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: And so at Inventium, we've been playing around with this 177 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: and we now have a rule that if there's a 178 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: meeting that involves three or more people, the meeting organizer 179 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: needs to like the barrier to entry if you like 180 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: to putting a meeting in someone's diary, is that they 181 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,359 Speaker 1: need to specify what's the purpose, agenda and desired outcomes 182 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: from the meeting. And we were reflecting on this at 183 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: our team meeting yesterday actually and kind of going it 184 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: really has made us stop and think before taking time 185 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: from each other, because it does take thought, and most 186 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: people kind of put a meeting in the diary, I find, 187 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: which without actually thinking too much about purpose, agenda and outcomes. 188 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just so easy to go into outlook 189 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 2: and schedule a meeting, it's much harder to actually think 190 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: about what you want to accomplish in that meeting. So 191 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: these digital tools have really enabled the proliferation of meetings. 192 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 2: So certainly practices where organizers of meetings are required to 193 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: specify these things in advance with not only one I 194 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: think cut down on a lot of unnecessary meetings, but 195 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: too it would help the meetings that you have run 196 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: much more effectively. 197 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you want to 198 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: listen to the full episode, I link to that in 199 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: the show notes, so you might want to check that out. 200 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: And if you are enjoying how I work, I would 201 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: be so deeply grateful if you just take five seconds 202 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: out of your day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. 203 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: It might be a star rating or a few words, 204 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: and by doing so, it helps other people find the 205 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: show and it also brings a huge smile to my face. 206 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have 207 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is 208 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: it for today's show, and I will see you next time.