Speaker 1: Today is a slightly different episode. I'm turning the interview
Speaker 1: table around and I'm the subject, and it's all about
Speaker 1: burnout because last year I hit an all time work low,
Speaker 1: and I realized I'd hit burnout in a way that
Speaker 1: I had never experienced before. To help me unpack what happened,
Speaker 1: and more importantly, to help dig myself out of it
Speaker 1: and explain what I did, I've invited my very good
Speaker 1: friend Sabina read Sabina is a clinical psychologist who you
Speaker 1: might have heard on her regular weekly slot on three
Speaker 1: aw or maybe you've heard her on the popular podcast
Speaker 1: Human Cogs. And you might have also seen her on
Speaker 1: the very first season of Married at First Sight. And
Speaker 1: you'll be hearing a lot more of Sabina over the
Speaker 1: coming year because I'll be inviting you to send in
Speaker 1: any questions you might have that you want answered by
Speaker 1: a couple of psychologists. So if you're going through a
Speaker 1: challenge at work, drop me a note or a voice
Speaker 1: memo using the email address in the show notes, and
Speaker 1: over the coming months, I'll be inviting Sabina back on
Speaker 1: to help with your listener questions. But in today's Chat
Speaker 1: with Sabina, we talk about the signs of incoming burnout
Speaker 1: that many of us, including myself, might ignore, and also
Speaker 1: Sabina's tactics for how to avoid burnout in the first place. So,
Speaker 1: if you or someone you know has felt exhausted, stressed,
Speaker 1: or burnt out by work in the last few months,
Speaker 1: I hope that this episode helps in some way. Welcome
Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and
Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber.
Speaker 1: When I hit burnout last year, I was so lucky
Speaker 1: to have Sabina to lean on. We often go for
Speaker 1: regular walks together where we talk about all things life
Speaker 1: and work. And it was during one of these walks
Speaker 1: last year that I confessed to Sabina that I was
Speaker 1: burnt out, and I shared with her quite a worrying
Speaker 1: fantasy I found myself having. So one of the most
Speaker 1: memorable walks that I've had with you this year been
Speaker 1: was in June, and I don't know if you remember this,
Speaker 1: but I was at an all time work low and
Speaker 1: I had realized that I had hit burnout. That thing
Speaker 1: that I talk about to lots of clients, as do you.
Speaker 1: Was a fellow psychologist and I remember I told you
Speaker 1: about these very specific thoughts that I was having, and
Speaker 1: I thought that I was going a little bit insane.
Speaker 1: And I feel that I can use that word colloquially
Speaker 1: because we're both signs. Yeah, there's no judgment about word
Speaker 1: choice here. So I was having this fantasy that I
Speaker 1: would get really, really sick, like hospitalization level sick, and
Speaker 1: I would be rushed to hospital. I would have no
Speaker 1: access to any of my devices, and I would just
Speaker 1: be in hospital for a week. I would get all
Speaker 1: these flowers and sympathy. I couldn't touch computers or work,
Speaker 1: no one could contact me, and then I would emerge
Speaker 1: a week later, unscathed, permanently non permanently injured, and then
Speaker 1: I'd be back. And I thought of what is going
Speaker 1: on in my mind? Can you share how you responded
Speaker 1: to that.
Speaker 2: It's actually taking me back now listening to you say it,
Speaker 2: and we're sort of chortling away because it was an interesting,
Speaker 2: fascinating walk. But when I hear you repeat that story,
Speaker 2: it really hits hard of the aspiration to not be
Speaker 2: in the situation or sitting with the feelings that you
Speaker 2: were sitting with at that time. And I think I
Speaker 2: said to you something, and you'll remember more clearly than me.
Speaker 2: But I know that I would have validated and said,
Speaker 2: this is such a normal experience. And I think I
Speaker 2: gave it the phrase the hit by a bus fantasy.
Speaker 1: You did.
Speaker 2: Now this this hit by a bus fantasy. Don't go
Speaker 2: looking it up because it's not out there. It's just
Speaker 2: a Sabina radism. But what it speaks to for me
Speaker 2: is this fantasy that is all too common that if
Speaker 2: only something bad could happen to me, bad enough that
Speaker 2: would take me out of the pressure cook crime in,
Speaker 2: but not so bad that it would cause permanent damage.
Speaker 2: And I've heard all kinds of different versions of that yours.
Speaker 2: Why I was just listening so intently was you were
Speaker 2: giving some very specifics away. Then. I wanted there to
Speaker 2: be no access to technology. I wanted people to empathize
Speaker 2: and sympathize with my plant. I wanted flowers, and I
Speaker 2: wanted a cocoon in a hospital setting that would allow
Speaker 2: me a soft place to fall into. Here, I've paraphrased
Speaker 2: a little bit there, maybe made it slightly more poetic,
Speaker 2: And yet I think the topic we're talking about, which
Speaker 2: is burnout, speaks to a lot of what you've just shared.
Speaker 2: We get so many little messages that become bigger messages.
Speaker 2: We get multiple data points telling us something's not okay,
Speaker 2: and we ignore them.
Speaker 1: I think I've been ignoring a lot of data probably
Speaker 1: in the twelve months leading up to that point. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: my personal life was really good, and twenty twenty four
Speaker 1: was like brilliant on so many fronts for my personal life,
Speaker 1: but my work life. I felt like I spent, you know,
Speaker 1: certainly the twelve months leading up to that point where
Speaker 1: it all just culminated in some pretty horrible feelings. I
Speaker 1: feel like I was trying to run and drag things
Speaker 1: through quicksand it just felt so hard and like an
Speaker 1: unsurmountable challenge. I just I didn't know how I was
Speaker 1: going to get out of the quicksand in some ways.
Speaker 2: And I know you'll have so many listeners resonating with
Speaker 2: what you're saying, and I'm curious, and of course I've
Speaker 2: got a little bit of insider knowledge, so I'm can
Speaker 2: to share it here, not around the park. What did
Speaker 2: you ignore? What were some of those messages? Because twelve
Speaker 2: months is quite a long time to ignore, and that's
Speaker 2: what burnout is it's this slow turning away from physical, emotional,
Speaker 2: psychological experiences that don't feel good and kind of hoping
Speaker 2: them away, wishing them away. And burnout is when things
Speaker 2: reach the point where the body, I think the body,
Speaker 2: the mind, the soul, every part of us is saying
Speaker 2: I can't do it anymore. And I've tried to call you,
Speaker 2: I've tried to write you messages, I've sent pigeon and
Speaker 2: a bottle, and you haven't listened. So we're calling in
Speaker 2: the big guns and we're bringing burnout out. We're going
Speaker 2: to play the burnout card now because you didn't listen.
Speaker 1: And I do want to come back to your question,
Speaker 1: but I think it's worth actually delving into what is
Speaker 1: burnout because it's a term that I feel, certainly in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, it's just been thrown around so much,
Speaker 1: and I think some people just are really tired, some
Speaker 1: people are perhaps what we've defined is clinically burnt out,
Speaker 1: and some are just kind of having a crappy month.
Speaker 1: So when you think about burnout as a clinical sych
Speaker 1: what are the signs that would suggest that someone that
Speaker 1: you are working with is perhaps like in that point
Speaker 1: of burnout.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not actually a clinical term, so we're not
Speaker 2: going to find it in the DSM, which is the
Speaker 2: diagnostic manual. But it is a very real experience, and
Speaker 2: I do think we need to differenterentiate burnout from exhaustion,
Speaker 2: because everyone gets tired and everyone needs to take a
Speaker 2: break sometimes, but it's this emotional depletion and psychological and
Speaker 2: physical depletion that leaves us with very low motivation, high
Speaker 2: levels of apathy, and really, I don't sit a care
Speaker 2: if I kind of push through this or not anymore,
Speaker 2: I've got nothing left in the tank. I think that's
Speaker 2: different to being tired. Look, they're cousins. Let's just put
Speaker 2: them all on the same family. True, we've got anxiety there,
Speaker 2: we've got depression there, we've got exhaustion, tiredness. So some
Speaker 2: of these are clinical reference as others are just you know,
Speaker 2: in the realm of the range of human experience and emotions.
Speaker 2: But there's something about burnout that's I think it's always
Speaker 2: a slow burn, Like how slow well yours was? You're
Speaker 2: saying a year. I'd like to challenge you on that,
Speaker 2: because probably maybe that was when you first started to
Speaker 2: be aware of it. But before that time comes up,
Speaker 2: there were probably other knocks on the taps on the
Speaker 2: shoulder that you ignored. And I often say should is
Speaker 2: one of my biggest swear words, and I think with burnout,
Speaker 2: there are so many shoulds that we tune out from ourself.
Speaker 2: And I tend to think around burnout. I guess there's
Speaker 2: getting to know what I need to keep on an
Speaker 2: even keel, so that's the me part, and then there's
Speaker 2: something more relational in that, what do I need from
Speaker 2: those around me personally and professionally, And then there's something
Speaker 2: in the greater world as well of all of the
Speaker 2: pressures upon us. So we see this at different levels,
Speaker 2: I guess, different depths in our lives. And when burnout
Speaker 2: was first described, I think it was really mostly talked
Speaker 2: about in a workplace setting or in a caregiving setting,
Speaker 2: so either people who work in caregiving roles or parents,
Speaker 2: or if you're looking after aging parents or you're looking
Speaker 2: up to children. And I think now that it's a
Speaker 2: lot broader than that. I think we can apply this
Speaker 2: idea of emotional depletion and nothing left in the tank
Speaker 2: in all domains of our life.
Speaker 1: I think back to like what I did after I
Speaker 1: hit that point, and I had two weeks of leave
Speaker 1: pre booked, and it was funny. I remember really clearly
Speaker 1: the week leading up to taking those two weeks, and
Speaker 1: literally every morning I would have a little argument in
Speaker 1: my head that went, could I call in sick today?
Speaker 1: How would that look to the team? Would that look
Speaker 1: really bad? I'm about to go on two weeks of leave,
Speaker 1: but I can't. I don't even feel like I can
Speaker 1: do this final week. Can I call and sick? Can
Speaker 1: I call and sick? And then the voice would go, no,
Speaker 1: you can't. You know at the time, like I had,
Speaker 1: you know that there were some role changes. I had
Speaker 1: some things that I just I couldn't not do before
Speaker 1: I went on leave, and I decided not. But I
Speaker 1: remember literally every day I would have this argument in
Speaker 1: my head, and it was exhausting and I ended up
Speaker 1: just pushing through. And then I took two weeks of leave.
Speaker 1: One of those weeks was a beautiful week in Vietnam
Speaker 1: and the other was a staycation in Melbourne, and I
Speaker 1: felt like I pretty quickly recovered. I got back to
Speaker 1: a point of feeling re energized, feeling destressed, and when
Speaker 1: I returned to work two weeks later, I felt pretty
Speaker 1: good and ready to take things back on again, and
Speaker 1: I felt so different to how i'd felt two weeks prior. Then,
Speaker 1: after about two months of being back in my role,
Speaker 1: I was pretty close to where I was in June,
Speaker 1: and I think, like, where did I go wrong? Because
Speaker 1: I made some pretty big changes to my role and
Speaker 1: other things that were in my control, But yet here
Speaker 1: I was again like what did I do wrong? Then?
Speaker 2: What do you reckon the ingredients? Where the Vietnamese dication
Speaker 2: ingredients were that helped you.
Speaker 1: I think a complete switch off from digital world. I
Speaker 1: think I was uncontactable.
Speaker 2: It's like the fantasy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the fantasy. I think the only way that
Speaker 1: like there are a couple of people in the team
Speaker 1: that I said, look if there's an emergency, stop me
Speaker 1: a message on WhatsApp, But otherwise I'm not checking any
Speaker 1: other form of digital communication. And I think I maybe
Speaker 1: received two messages in two weeks. And I actually remember
Speaker 1: when I received one of the messages and I saw
Speaker 1: the name of someone from my work team, just my
Speaker 1: heart rate started increasing, like I just felt triggered. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh God, what do I have to deal with? And
Speaker 1: it was nothing like it was probably not an emergency.
Speaker 2: There's something there. I'm going to go date now, how
Speaker 2: can we not there's something there about your I think
Speaker 2: i'm hearing your responsibility for others in that story, because
Speaker 2: you said I did all the things that were in
Speaker 2: my control. I did all the right things. But then
Speaker 2: when you got that message, you're responsible again, and you
Speaker 2: don't want that responsibility for other people's choices, behavior's roles.
Speaker 2: I don't know how you would describe it. So when
Speaker 2: you go on leave for two weeks and you said
Speaker 2: I did everything right and it all felt fine, but
Speaker 2: you weren't responsible for anyone else? Yeah, is that planned
Speaker 2: in some way?
Speaker 1: It does land. Yeah. I think as an employer, as
Speaker 1: a small business owner, I place a lot of weight
Speaker 1: and responsibility on the experience, the environment, and the relationships
Speaker 1: that I have with my team members. But there's only
Speaker 1: so much that is in my control. And so one
Speaker 1: of the sort of earlier contributors in that twelve month
Speaker 1: period leading up to that moment in June was that
Speaker 1: in in late twenty twenty three, I had three team
Speaker 1: members resigned within about three months of each other. And
Speaker 1: I think when that happened, it put me into a
Speaker 1: really fear driven state, And I think about the decisions
Speaker 1: that I made across the course of twenty twenty four
Speaker 1: and certainly before I came to this realization. I think
Speaker 1: I came to this realization in the few months that
Speaker 1: were ending twenty twenty four, and I decided to do
Speaker 1: something about it. But I'd made a lot of fear
Speaker 1: driven decisions, and that's never a good thing as a leader.
Speaker 1: That never gets you into a good place. It's never
Speaker 1: good for business. But I think for.
Speaker 2: Life, awful life unless you're being chased by the so
Speaker 2: called sabertooth target. So in those short term moments, I
Speaker 2: really admire your vulnerability and honesty in this space to
Speaker 2: be able to share some of the hard things about
Speaker 2: running a business and being a leader and being a
Speaker 2: business owner. It makes sense to me that feeling responsible
Speaker 2: for other people as a leader, as a manager, as
Speaker 2: a business owner is kind of a burden to carry.
Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of people in who
Speaker 2: have experienced burnout who will feel it very much attached
Speaker 2: not always to people who work for them, but as
Speaker 2: I said, could be the elderly parent, or the young child,
Speaker 2: or the sick neighbor, or a group of people they
Speaker 2: feel they need to help support, rescue, guide, whatever the
Speaker 2: verb is, and it's sometimes too much for us. And
Speaker 2: I think you and I have probably talked about this,
Speaker 2: but if not, I don't have grand desires to run
Speaker 2: a business, to have a big team. In the vein
Speaker 2: of true honesty, sometimes I listen to what you talk
Speaker 2: about and inventium, and I think it's so wonderful to
Speaker 2: have that growth and that scaling and the reach that
Speaker 2: is harder for me to access as a solo operator,
Speaker 2: I guess, and there's something in the greater world, not
Speaker 2: just in our world of psychology where we're expected to
Speaker 2: always want more. I remember when I was I worked
Speaker 2: in communications before I was a psychologist, and I was
Speaker 2: working in a comms job, and I remember someone in
Speaker 2: this corporate that I worked in said she worked in
Speaker 2: a churn. She said, there's a job going for the
Speaker 2: head of a churn. She said, but I don't I'm
Speaker 2: not interested. And I was twenty five or something, and
Speaker 2: I said, why not, Like, why wouldn't you want that?
Speaker 2: There's a bigger job going in your lane? And she said,
Speaker 2: I have no desire to be the head of the department.
Speaker 2: And it was the first time, and this probably speaks
Speaker 2: to our cultural norms or perhaps family norms as well.
Speaker 2: Not perhaps definitely family norms. Where I heard someone owning
Speaker 2: with full ease and a plum and pride that she
Speaker 2: didn't want to climb any ladder. She was happy in
Speaker 2: the role she was doing. Not everyone wants bigger and
Speaker 2: more and greater and teams and growth, And I think
Speaker 2: there's an invitation there for all of us. You know,
Speaker 2: there are others that want that more than anything. Perhaps
Speaker 2: the question is what's the driving where we're going to go?
Speaker 2: Psycho Babbel now? But what are the values? What are
Speaker 2: the learned lessons? What are the unmet needs? Who are
Speaker 2: we perhaps trying to please? What are the fears as
Speaker 2: you talked about that might lead us to feel we
Speaker 2: need to honor these shoulds? And they're not all shoulds
Speaker 2: around having a team, but everyone's got shoulds. And if
Speaker 2: we don't understand where those shoulds come from, we'll keep
Speaker 2: repeating them. And the person that will really miss out
Speaker 2: is us.
Speaker 1: We will be back with Sabina soon, and when we return,
Speaker 1: we'll discuss the key factor that helped me recover. Sabina's
Speaker 1: top burnout prevention tactics and the deep fear that ultimately
Speaker 1: drove me to burnout. If you're looking for more tips
Speaker 1: to improve the way you work can live. I write
Speaker 1: a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that
Speaker 1: have helped me personally. You can sign up for that
Speaker 1: at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com.
Speaker 2: You mentioned something then before around a lot of your
Speaker 2: decisions being fear based. What do you think the greatest
Speaker 2: fear was.
Speaker 1: It's a good question. I mean, I think the greatest
Speaker 1: fear was what if Inventium blows up and it is
Speaker 1: no more and I have no business and therefore part
Speaker 1: of my self identity is gone. And it's a weird
Speaker 1: fear to have because the inventing and brand is so
Speaker 1: wrapped up in me and I have completed and utter
Speaker 1: confidence in my ability to work and to find work
Speaker 1: and to attract clients that want help in the ways
Speaker 1: that I can help. So it was irrational, but it
Speaker 1: also felt very real. It's like, what if this is
Speaker 1: the end? Like what if something happens that means this
Speaker 1: is the end? I don't know, what if everyone leaves.
Speaker 2: Or let's go there? So is what I just called
Speaker 2: drilling down, you know, spiraling down, spiling down with our thoughts.
Speaker 2: So if you drill down on these don't have to
Speaker 2: be factual. We're in an exploration mode here, so we're
Speaker 2: not making plans for this. It's hypothetical at this point. Anyway,
Speaker 2: If we drill down, so there is no more inventium,
Speaker 2: what now? News flash to the listeners, there is certainly
Speaker 2: still inventium and they kick goals everywhere everyone they touch
Speaker 2: and all the work they do. But for the purposes
Speaker 2: of this conversation, what now.
Speaker 1: I think I just thought, like in my lowest, darkest
Speaker 1: moments of going what if the worst happens? And that
Speaker 1: felt like it would be the worst thing. So what then?
Speaker 1: I just thought, Well, I will just continue to do
Speaker 1: the work that I love, and I will fly solo
Speaker 1: and I would relish that that would be like a
Speaker 1: new chapter.
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that's coming up
Speaker 2: for me now is that burnout. As we said, it's
Speaker 2: not a clinical diagnosis, and there's often quite or possibly
Speaker 2: an existential connection to it. What am I doing, Who
Speaker 2: am I doing it with? Why am I doing it?
Speaker 2: Am I'm making the right choices for me at this
Speaker 2: stage in my life, those that are bigger questions, and again,
Speaker 2: when we don't listen to those, the body starts to
Speaker 2: speak louder. We often talk about physical exhaustion and physical depletion,
Speaker 2: but for me, the physicality comes when the emotional has
Speaker 2: spain ignored, and the emotional is often we don't want
Speaker 2: to look at the parts that are so raw, and
Speaker 2: so we kind of skirt around the edges. And that's
Speaker 2: where I think this existential lens is probably quite related
Speaker 2: to burnout because I'm doing too many shoulds for other
Speaker 2: people and ignoring what I know, whatever you want to
Speaker 2: call it myself, I don't know. You know, my intuition
Speaker 2: is speaking and I'm ignoring it to help others because
Speaker 2: I should.
Speaker 1: There was definitely a lot of that, and I remember
Speaker 1: something on another one of our walks that really stuck
Speaker 1: with me. And this was towards the end of last year,
Speaker 1: and I was just, you know, grappling with some various
Speaker 1: decisions and you talked about walking those different paths. Can
Speaker 1: you share that advice you gave me, because it was
Speaker 1: very powerful.
Speaker 2: And you were remembering some things in detail that I
Speaker 2: probably I off and just you know, riff as I'm
Speaker 2: just present. I'm just present whatever's kind, so that they're
Speaker 2: not things I've said a hundred times. I'd never really
Speaker 2: talked about the hit by a bus fantasy and those
Speaker 2: terms are that. But just reflecting on what you were saying.
Speaker 2: But I think what you and I were talking about
Speaker 2: then was some fear based things about what if, what
Speaker 2: if this happens, what if that happens? And I find
Speaker 2: a really useful response or a strategy to that is
Speaker 2: to not just in your mind and not just in
Speaker 2: a journal, and not just talking and not just therapy,
Speaker 2: but to act, actually take some physical steps thinking about
Speaker 2: what would happen if that came to fruition or if
Speaker 2: I took that path, and then physically to walk back
Speaker 2: to your starting point and physically to walk down a
Speaker 2: separate path in a different direction, I mean, physically move
Speaker 2: your body in a different direction. I think I said
Speaker 2: to you. There's something called chair work in psychology which
Speaker 2: kind of uses similar principles, where you're inviting one part
Speaker 2: of a person. We're all made up of parts, and
Speaker 2: these parts are conflicting, and these parts need to talk
Speaker 2: to each other. And in chair work, in the therapeutic setting,
Speaker 2: you're inviting one part of a person. So perhaps a
Speaker 2: part that wants to leave, let's say, leave a job,
Speaker 2: leave a marriage, change something, and then another part wants
Speaker 2: to stay and wants a status quote. So we can
Speaker 2: all relate to those even outside of the work domain.
Speaker 2: And there's something about actually inviting a person to sit
Speaker 2: in chair A and talk for part A, and then
Speaker 2: sit in the second chair and talk for part B.
Speaker 2: And the physical movement from chair. Now as I'm saying this,
Speaker 2: there'll be people listening to this sounds bonkers. Why would
Speaker 2: you ask someone to get up and say a few
Speaker 2: sentences in one chair and then move themselves to the
Speaker 2: next chair. But it's a way to shake off some
Speaker 2: of the preconceved ideas, the faulty thinking, the expectations, the shoulds,
Speaker 2: and just be clear with that part and let that
Speaker 2: part have a voice. So the physicality matters. It shifts
Speaker 2: something in our physiology. And what I think you and
Speaker 2: I were talking about in the park was physically taking
Speaker 2: yourself down that path and imagining. And I'm closing my
Speaker 2: eyes as I'm saying it, but what would it feel like,
Speaker 2: who would be there, what would it smell like? What
Speaker 2: would I do? With my time, how would I be
Speaker 2: as a partner, what would be like as a parent,
Speaker 2: where would I live? Whatever all the questions are, and
Speaker 2: then going back down starting point and going you know,
Speaker 2: down path B and asking the same questions and something
Speaker 2: around the physical, walking through us to really imagine it
Speaker 2: before we shut it down.
Speaker 1: I found that strategy very very helpful, you know, and
Speaker 1: I think as like as I contemplated, you know, just
Speaker 1: different scenarios, with the different decision points that I had
Speaker 1: throughout twenty twenty four, I think it helped me make better,
Speaker 1: clearer decisions using that strategy. It's funny in my twenties
Speaker 1: when I studied Gastalt therapy, I did so much empty
Speaker 1: chair work.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're well familiar.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to many an empty chair.
Speaker 2: Ah, they're great company, aren't They.
Speaker 1: Love an empty chair? Although I think after doing about
Speaker 1: three or four years of Costalt therapy.
Speaker 2: This is you as a client, this is me as
Speaker 2: a client.
Speaker 1: So I studied as a therapist, but I saw a
Speaker 1: Gastalt therapist as a client, and I think after about
Speaker 1: four years of talking to empty chairs, you were ready
Speaker 1: for a human enough, you know, we were just talking
Speaker 1: off air briefly been around what are.
Speaker 2: The tactics, what are the strategies? And I think we
Speaker 2: need to understand this is not something you wrap in
Speaker 2: a bow and take forward and see you never burn out.
Speaker 2: This is about actually knowing who we are at our
Speaker 2: very core. We need to know what I need. I
Speaker 2: need to know what I need, and I need to
Speaker 2: understand when I ignore that at what cost it comes to me.
Speaker 2: I also need to understand and feel and appreciate the
Speaker 2: dynamics between me and others in my life at this
Speaker 2: relational piece, professionally and personally. And again, now, we can't
Speaker 2: always honor our own needs in a relationship because there's
Speaker 2: other people at play. So let's just give an example.
Speaker 2: When you are in the company of someone that you
Speaker 2: find exhausting and depleting, that can be a factor towards burnout.
Speaker 2: It's not the only factor, but can be accumulative factor.
Speaker 2: The only person who can change that is you. You
Speaker 2: can either have a conversation with the person or multiple
Speaker 2: conversations to talk about what happens in their orbit, or
Speaker 2: you can just depending on the relationship and how high
Speaker 2: stakes a relationship is, you can just say I'm not
Speaker 2: going to spend time in this person's company anymore, because
Speaker 2: it is emptying my tank. Knowing what I need, knowing
Speaker 2: what we need, and then also knowing some of the
Speaker 2: external contextual pressures that happened to all of us as workers,
Speaker 2: as parents, as partners, as humans, and in the context
Speaker 2: also of a world that's spinning out of control. And
Speaker 2: then we couple that with all of these shoulds, and
Speaker 2: so we ignore, and we put our blinkers back on,
Speaker 2: and we think, well, everyone else seems fine, so I'll
Speaker 2: escape marching along. Or you said, I'll take a holiday.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Vietnam and a staycation in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: And then when I got back, I felt fine. Band
Speaker 2: aid good good, I mean a powerful band aid, but
Speaker 2: it's not a permanent fix. And then you describe, well,
Speaker 2: after a couple of weeks, some of the same experiences
Speaker 2: start to set in again, and you think, damn, I
Speaker 2: was doing so fine, and that's why I said, what
Speaker 2: were the ingredients? How do we unpack that? How do
Speaker 2: we define that? And we didn't even finish that, but
Speaker 2: you said very clearly I wasn't contactable or responsible for
Speaker 2: other people. Then you go back to the world, the
Speaker 2: job the life you were living. And now, of course
Speaker 2: we all have some responsibility to other people, but with
Speaker 2: what magnitude and to how many is probably in our control.
Speaker 1: That's very true. One thing I reflected on in terms
Speaker 1: of something when I started to think about it it
Speaker 1: started to help, is that I had spent an inordinate
Speaker 1: amount of time in twenty twenty four worrying about things
Speaker 1: that I had no control over. And it does relate
Speaker 1: to the responsibility because while I felt deeply responsible for
Speaker 1: this team of people that I employed part of, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm responsible for everything. But again flowed thinking
Speaker 1: because I can't be responsible for everything. I can't be
Speaker 1: responsible for their emotions, their actions, their behaviors, their thoughts,
Speaker 1: their feelings. None of that is within my control. And
Speaker 1: again it sounds really obvious, but when I tried to
Speaker 1: unpack when things were causing me a lot of stress
Speaker 1: and what it was that was causing me stress more
Speaker 1: often than not, it was worrying about things that I
Speaker 1: had zero control over. And starting to have that awareness
Speaker 1: and trying to just let go of those worries, I
Speaker 1: found incredibly free, sort of once I got to that point,
Speaker 1: and it's hard to let them go. Even when you
Speaker 1: become aware.
Speaker 2: Of course, awareness is not action.
Speaker 1: No, no, but at least it's the first step. And
Speaker 1: I think because I started to practice that, and I
Speaker 1: started to build that muscle of going, Okay, what can
Speaker 1: I influence here? What can I control? Okay, great, will
Speaker 1: take actions here, but what can I not control or influence.
Speaker 1: I'm going to stop thinking about that because I've wasted
Speaker 1: so much thinking time on all that stuff.
Speaker 2: And the toll that takes on your body. You know,
Speaker 2: we're talking about the physical depletion. You probably we didn't
Speaker 2: really list, but you know, some of the common symptoms
Speaker 2: of burner are getting sick often because your immune system's
Speaker 2: taken such a hit. And then there's a lot of
Speaker 2: quite serious diseases that often show themselves again and again
Speaker 2: with autoimmune And I'm not saying there or there's not
Speaker 2: direct causation in a lot of those stories, but I
Speaker 2: know in the years that I worked in the clinical space,
Speaker 2: I would see repeatedly a lot of the same presentations,
Speaker 2: not psychological, but what they would mention in passing would
Speaker 2: be that they had a lot of gut issues or
Speaker 2: that they got sick very often. I am this is
Speaker 2: an odd reflection. But I've heard physically with my own
Speaker 2: ears back in my therapy days, a lot of guts churning.
Speaker 2: I mean that literally, I've heard the sound of the
Speaker 2: gut when you're sitting quietly in a therapy room and
Speaker 2: someone's just talking, and I can hear physical distress almost.
Speaker 2: So there's you know a lot of people who have
Speaker 2: gut issues. Well, we know the brain and the gut
Speaker 2: were intertwined way back when, so I think we need
Speaker 2: to be in tune to those physical messages as well.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting with you, knowing you personally and professionally. If
Speaker 2: I was just sitting with you professionally, I would still
Speaker 2: be asking these same questions. I don't sort of turn
Speaker 2: my psychological curiosity and expertise and knowledge off because I'm
Speaker 2: speaking to someone in a different role. I would be
Speaker 2: seeing the leader in front of me, thinking, at what
Speaker 2: costs to you? It's taking a toll? Now, how much
Speaker 2: of this do you want to share with your team?
Speaker 2: What kind of changes do you want to make in
Speaker 2: your life? How much longer do you want to continue
Speaker 2: with this status quo that's coming at a cost. Because,
Speaker 2: of course, I think a leader is partially not responsible
Speaker 2: but impactful in the well bang of their people, but
Speaker 2: you're not solely responsible for their well bang. And one
Speaker 2: of the things I talk about a lot in corporates
Speaker 2: is the importance of agency and accountability to each and
Speaker 2: every person, regardless of the role, or the tenure or
Speaker 2: the seniority of the income.
Speaker 1: I love that as advice, and I've loved this discussion
Speaker 1: unpacking what is burnout and for me personally, how do
Speaker 1: I try to not end up where I was last
Speaker 1: year again in twenty twenty five, And I'm feeling very
Speaker 1: optimistic and hopeful that this year will be a very
Speaker 1: different year. So thank you for your insights and sharing
Speaker 1: it and obviously all the walks around the part helping
Speaker 1: me unpack things last year.
Speaker 2: Well, I take my hat off to you in this
Speaker 2: forum to share, you know, because we're not just in
Speaker 2: the park and other people are listening, and that's the gift,
Speaker 2: and that's why we choose to create content in spaces
Speaker 2: outside the metaphoric park, because we know that other people
Speaker 2: will have walked in your shoes and my shoes before too,
Speaker 2: So I think it's cutos to you for sharing and
Speaker 2: a lot easier when we're in an air conditioning studio
Speaker 2: without two dogs as well.
Speaker 1: I hope you like this chat with Sabina as much
Speaker 1: as I enjoyed having it, and I really hope that
Speaker 1: it helped you with whatever might be going on in
Speaker 1: your work life. And maybe you're wondering how am I
Speaker 1: doing now? Well, I am doing a million and one
Speaker 1: percent better, is the absolute honest truth. And in a
Speaker 1: future episode, I'll be unpacking a little bit more around
Speaker 1: exactly how I managed that recovery. I'll also be getting
Speaker 1: Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer your questions.
Speaker 1: So if you've got something that you would like a
Speaker 1: couple of psychologists perspectives on, please send me a message
Speaker 1: via the email in the show notes, or you can
Speaker 1: reach out to me on LinkedIn or Instagram with anything
Speaker 1: you'd like to ask. If you like today's show, make
Speaker 1: sure you get follow on your podcast app to be
Speaker 1: alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded
Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warringery people, part of
Speaker 1: the Kolhan nation.