1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Today is a slightly different episode. I'm turning the interview 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: table around and I'm the subject, and it's all about 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: burnout because last year I hit an all time work low, 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: and I realized I'd hit burnout in a way that 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: I had never experienced before. To help me unpack what happened, 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: and more importantly, to help dig myself out of it 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: and explain what I did, I've invited my very good 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: friend Sabina read Sabina is a clinical psychologist who you 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: might have heard on her regular weekly slot on three 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: aw or maybe you've heard her on the popular podcast 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: Human Cogs. And you might have also seen her on 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: the very first season of Married at First Sight. And 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: you'll be hearing a lot more of Sabina over the 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: coming year because I'll be inviting you to send in 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: any questions you might have that you want answered by 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: a couple of psychologists. So if you're going through a 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: challenge at work, drop me a note or a voice 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: memo using the email address in the show notes, and 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: over the coming months, I'll be inviting Sabina back on 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: to help with your listener questions. But in today's Chat 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: with Sabina, we talk about the signs of incoming burnout 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: that many of us, including myself, might ignore, and also 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: Sabina's tactics for how to avoid burnout in the first place. So, 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: if you or someone you know has felt exhausted, stressed, 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 1: or burnt out by work in the last few months, 26 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: I hope that this episode helps in some way. Welcome 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber. 29 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: When I hit burnout last year, I was so lucky 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: to have Sabina to lean on. We often go for 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: regular walks together where we talk about all things life 32 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: and work. And it was during one of these walks 33 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: last year that I confessed to Sabina that I was 34 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: burnt out, and I shared with her quite a worrying 35 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: fantasy I found myself having. So one of the most 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: memorable walks that I've had with you this year been 37 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: was in June, and I don't know if you remember this, 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: but I was at an all time work low and 39 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: I had realized that I had hit burnout. That thing 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: that I talk about to lots of clients, as do you. 41 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: Was a fellow psychologist and I remember I told you 42 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: about these very specific thoughts that I was having, and 43 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: I thought that I was going a little bit insane. 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: And I feel that I can use that word colloquially 45 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: because we're both signs. Yeah, there's no judgment about word 46 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: choice here. So I was having this fantasy that I 47 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: would get really, really sick, like hospitalization level sick, and 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: I would be rushed to hospital. I would have no 49 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: access to any of my devices, and I would just 50 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: be in hospital for a week. I would get all 51 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: these flowers and sympathy. I couldn't touch computers or work, 52 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: no one could contact me, and then I would emerge 53 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: a week later, unscathed, permanently non permanently injured, and then 54 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: I'd be back. And I thought of what is going 55 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: on in my mind? Can you share how you responded 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: to that. 57 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: It's actually taking me back now listening to you say it, 58 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: and we're sort of chortling away because it was an interesting, 59 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: fascinating walk. But when I hear you repeat that story, 60 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: it really hits hard of the aspiration to not be 61 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: in the situation or sitting with the feelings that you 62 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: were sitting with at that time. And I think I 63 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: said to you something, and you'll remember more clearly than me. 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: But I know that I would have validated and said, 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: this is such a normal experience. And I think I 66 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: gave it the phrase the hit by a bus fantasy. 67 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 1: You did. 68 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: Now this this hit by a bus fantasy. Don't go 69 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: looking it up because it's not out there. It's just 70 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 2: a Sabina radism. But what it speaks to for me 71 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: is this fantasy that is all too common that if 72 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: only something bad could happen to me, bad enough that 73 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: would take me out of the pressure cook crime in, 74 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: but not so bad that it would cause permanent damage. 75 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: And I've heard all kinds of different versions of that yours. 76 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: Why I was just listening so intently was you were 77 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: giving some very specifics away. Then. I wanted there to 78 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: be no access to technology. I wanted people to empathize 79 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: and sympathize with my plant. I wanted flowers, and I 80 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: wanted a cocoon in a hospital setting that would allow 81 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: me a soft place to fall into. Here, I've paraphrased 82 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: a little bit there, maybe made it slightly more poetic, 83 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: And yet I think the topic we're talking about, which 84 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: is burnout, speaks to a lot of what you've just shared. 85 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: We get so many little messages that become bigger messages. 86 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: We get multiple data points telling us something's not okay, 87 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: and we ignore them. 88 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: I think I've been ignoring a lot of data probably 89 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: in the twelve months leading up to that point. Interestingly, 90 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: my personal life was really good, and twenty twenty four 91 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: was like brilliant on so many fronts for my personal life, 92 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: but my work life. I felt like I spent, you know, 93 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: certainly the twelve months leading up to that point where 94 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: it all just culminated in some pretty horrible feelings. I 95 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 1: feel like I was trying to run and drag things 96 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: through quicksand it just felt so hard and like an 97 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: unsurmountable challenge. I just I didn't know how I was 98 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: going to get out of the quicksand in some ways. 99 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 2: And I know you'll have so many listeners resonating with 100 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: what you're saying, and I'm curious, and of course I've 101 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: got a little bit of insider knowledge, so I'm can 102 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: to share it here, not around the park. What did 103 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 2: you ignore? What were some of those messages? Because twelve 104 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: months is quite a long time to ignore, and that's 105 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 2: what burnout is it's this slow turning away from physical, emotional, 106 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: psychological experiences that don't feel good and kind of hoping 107 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: them away, wishing them away. And burnout is when things 108 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: reach the point where the body, I think the body, 109 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: the mind, the soul, every part of us is saying 110 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 2: I can't do it anymore. And I've tried to call you, 111 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: I've tried to write you messages, I've sent pigeon and 112 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: a bottle, and you haven't listened. So we're calling in 113 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: the big guns and we're bringing burnout out. We're going 114 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: to play the burnout card now because you didn't listen. 115 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,679 Speaker 1: And I do want to come back to your question, 116 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: but I think it's worth actually delving into what is 117 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: burnout because it's a term that I feel, certainly in 118 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, it's just been thrown around so much, 119 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: and I think some people just are really tired, some 120 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: people are perhaps what we've defined is clinically burnt out, 121 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: and some are just kind of having a crappy month. 122 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: So when you think about burnout as a clinical sych 123 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: what are the signs that would suggest that someone that 124 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: you are working with is perhaps like in that point 125 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: of burnout. 126 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's not actually a clinical term, so we're not 127 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: going to find it in the DSM, which is the 128 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: diagnostic manual. But it is a very real experience, and 129 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: I do think we need to differenterentiate burnout from exhaustion, 130 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: because everyone gets tired and everyone needs to take a 131 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: break sometimes, but it's this emotional depletion and psychological and 132 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: physical depletion that leaves us with very low motivation, high 133 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: levels of apathy, and really, I don't sit a care 134 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: if I kind of push through this or not anymore, 135 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: I've got nothing left in the tank. I think that's 136 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: different to being tired. Look, they're cousins. Let's just put 137 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: them all on the same family. True, we've got anxiety there, 138 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: we've got depression there, we've got exhaustion, tiredness. So some 139 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: of these are clinical reference as others are just you know, 140 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: in the realm of the range of human experience and emotions. 141 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: But there's something about burnout that's I think it's always 142 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: a slow burn, Like how slow well yours was? You're 143 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: saying a year. I'd like to challenge you on that, 144 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 2: because probably maybe that was when you first started to 145 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: be aware of it. But before that time comes up, 146 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: there were probably other knocks on the taps on the 147 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: shoulder that you ignored. And I often say should is 148 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: one of my biggest swear words, and I think with burnout, 149 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: there are so many shoulds that we tune out from ourself. 150 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: And I tend to think around burnout. I guess there's 151 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: getting to know what I need to keep on an 152 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: even keel, so that's the me part, and then there's 153 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 2: something more relational in that, what do I need from 154 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: those around me personally and professionally, And then there's something 155 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: in the greater world as well of all of the 156 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: pressures upon us. So we see this at different levels, 157 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: I guess, different depths in our lives. And when burnout 158 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: was first described, I think it was really mostly talked 159 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: about in a workplace setting or in a caregiving setting, 160 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: so either people who work in caregiving roles or parents, 161 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: or if you're looking after aging parents or you're looking 162 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: up to children. And I think now that it's a 163 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: lot broader than that. I think we can apply this 164 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: idea of emotional depletion and nothing left in the tank 165 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: in all domains of our life. 166 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: I think back to like what I did after I 167 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: hit that point, and I had two weeks of leave 168 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: pre booked, and it was funny. I remember really clearly 169 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: the week leading up to taking those two weeks, and 170 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: literally every morning I would have a little argument in 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: my head that went, could I call in sick today? 172 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: How would that look to the team? Would that look 173 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: really bad? I'm about to go on two weeks of leave, 174 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: but I can't. I don't even feel like I can 175 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: do this final week. Can I call and sick? Can 176 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: I call and sick? And then the voice would go, no, 177 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: you can't. You know at the time, like I had, 178 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 1: you know that there were some role changes. I had 179 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: some things that I just I couldn't not do before 180 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: I went on leave, and I decided not. But I 181 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: remember literally every day I would have this argument in 182 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: my head, and it was exhausting and I ended up 183 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: just pushing through. And then I took two weeks of leave. 184 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: One of those weeks was a beautiful week in Vietnam 185 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: and the other was a staycation in Melbourne, and I 186 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: felt like I pretty quickly recovered. I got back to 187 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: a point of feeling re energized, feeling destressed, and when 188 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: I returned to work two weeks later, I felt pretty 189 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: good and ready to take things back on again, and 190 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: I felt so different to how i'd felt two weeks prior. Then, 191 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: after about two months of being back in my role, 192 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: I was pretty close to where I was in June, 193 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: and I think, like, where did I go wrong? Because 194 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: I made some pretty big changes to my role and 195 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: other things that were in my control, But yet here 196 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: I was again like what did I do wrong? Then? 197 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: What do you reckon the ingredients? Where the Vietnamese dication 198 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: ingredients were that helped you. 199 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: I think a complete switch off from digital world. I 200 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 1: think I was uncontactable. 201 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: It's like the fantasy. 202 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, like the fantasy. I think the only way that 203 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: like there are a couple of people in the team 204 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: that I said, look if there's an emergency, stop me 205 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: a message on WhatsApp, But otherwise I'm not checking any 206 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: other form of digital communication. And I think I maybe 207 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: received two messages in two weeks. And I actually remember 208 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: when I received one of the messages and I saw 209 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: the name of someone from my work team, just my 210 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: heart rate started increasing, like I just felt triggered. I'm like, 211 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: oh God, what do I have to deal with? And 212 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: it was nothing like it was probably not an emergency. 213 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: There's something there. I'm going to go date now, how 214 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: can we not there's something there about your I think 215 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: i'm hearing your responsibility for others in that story, because 216 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: you said I did all the things that were in 217 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: my control. I did all the right things. But then 218 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: when you got that message, you're responsible again, and you 219 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 2: don't want that responsibility for other people's choices, behavior's roles. 220 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: I don't know how you would describe it. So when 221 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: you go on leave for two weeks and you said 222 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: I did everything right and it all felt fine, but 223 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: you weren't responsible for anyone else? Yeah, is that planned 224 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: in some way? 225 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: It does land. Yeah. I think as an employer, as 226 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: a small business owner, I place a lot of weight 227 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: and responsibility on the experience, the environment, and the relationships 228 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: that I have with my team members. But there's only 229 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: so much that is in my control. And so one 230 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: of the sort of earlier contributors in that twelve month 231 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: period leading up to that moment in June was that 232 00:13:53,440 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: in in late twenty twenty three, I had three team 233 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: members resigned within about three months of each other. And 234 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: I think when that happened, it put me into a 235 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: really fear driven state, And I think about the decisions 236 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: that I made across the course of twenty twenty four 237 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: and certainly before I came to this realization. I think 238 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: I came to this realization in the few months that 239 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: were ending twenty twenty four, and I decided to do 240 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: something about it. But I'd made a lot of fear 241 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: driven decisions, and that's never a good thing as a leader. 242 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: That never gets you into a good place. It's never 243 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: good for business. But I think for. 244 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: Life, awful life unless you're being chased by the so 245 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: called sabertooth target. So in those short term moments, I 246 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: really admire your vulnerability and honesty in this space to 247 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: be able to share some of the hard things about 248 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: running a business and being a leader and being a 249 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: business owner. It makes sense to me that feeling responsible 250 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: for other people as a leader, as a manager, as 251 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: a business owner is kind of a burden to carry. 252 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of people in who 253 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: have experienced burnout who will feel it very much attached 254 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: not always to people who work for them, but as 255 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: I said, could be the elderly parent, or the young child, 256 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: or the sick neighbor, or a group of people they 257 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: feel they need to help support, rescue, guide, whatever the 258 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: verb is, and it's sometimes too much for us. And 259 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: I think you and I have probably talked about this, 260 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: but if not, I don't have grand desires to run 261 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: a business, to have a big team. In the vein 262 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: of true honesty, sometimes I listen to what you talk 263 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: about and inventium, and I think it's so wonderful to 264 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: have that growth and that scaling and the reach that 265 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: is harder for me to access as a solo operator, 266 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: I guess, and there's something in the greater world, not 267 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: just in our world of psychology where we're expected to 268 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: always want more. I remember when I was I worked 269 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: in communications before I was a psychologist, and I was 270 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: working in a comms job, and I remember someone in 271 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: this corporate that I worked in said she worked in 272 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: a churn. She said, there's a job going for the 273 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: head of a churn. She said, but I don't I'm 274 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: not interested. And I was twenty five or something, and 275 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: I said, why not, Like, why wouldn't you want that? 276 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: There's a bigger job going in your lane? And she said, 277 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: I have no desire to be the head of the department. 278 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: And it was the first time, and this probably speaks 279 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: to our cultural norms or perhaps family norms as well. 280 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: Not perhaps definitely family norms. Where I heard someone owning 281 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: with full ease and a plum and pride that she 282 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: didn't want to climb any ladder. She was happy in 283 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: the role she was doing. Not everyone wants bigger and 284 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: more and greater and teams and growth, And I think 285 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: there's an invitation there for all of us. You know, 286 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 2: there are others that want that more than anything. Perhaps 287 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: the question is what's the driving where we're going to go? 288 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: Psycho Babbel now? But what are the values? What are 289 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: the learned lessons? What are the unmet needs? Who are 290 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 2: we perhaps trying to please? What are the fears as 291 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 2: you talked about that might lead us to feel we 292 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: need to honor these shoulds? And they're not all shoulds 293 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: around having a team, but everyone's got shoulds. And if 294 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: we don't understand where those shoulds come from, we'll keep 295 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: repeating them. And the person that will really miss out 296 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: is us. 297 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: We will be back with Sabina soon, and when we return, 298 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: we'll discuss the key factor that helped me recover. Sabina's 299 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: top burnout prevention tactics and the deep fear that ultimately 300 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: drove me to burnout. If you're looking for more tips 301 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: to improve the way you work can live. I write 302 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that 303 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: have helped me personally. You can sign up for that 304 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 305 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 2: You mentioned something then before around a lot of your 306 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 2: decisions being fear based. What do you think the greatest 307 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 2: fear was. 308 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: It's a good question. I mean, I think the greatest 309 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: fear was what if Inventium blows up and it is 310 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: no more and I have no business and therefore part 311 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: of my self identity is gone. And it's a weird 312 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: fear to have because the inventing and brand is so 313 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: wrapped up in me and I have completed and utter 314 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: confidence in my ability to work and to find work 315 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: and to attract clients that want help in the ways 316 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 1: that I can help. So it was irrational, but it 317 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: also felt very real. It's like, what if this is 318 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: the end? Like what if something happens that means this 319 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: is the end? I don't know, what if everyone leaves. 320 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: Or let's go there? So is what I just called 321 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: drilling down, you know, spiraling down, spiling down with our thoughts. 322 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: So if you drill down on these don't have to 323 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: be factual. We're in an exploration mode here, so we're 324 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: not making plans for this. It's hypothetical at this point. Anyway, 325 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 2: If we drill down, so there is no more inventium, 326 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: what now? News flash to the listeners, there is certainly 327 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: still inventium and they kick goals everywhere everyone they touch 328 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: and all the work they do. But for the purposes 329 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: of this conversation, what now. 330 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: I think I just thought, like in my lowest, darkest 331 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: moments of going what if the worst happens? And that 332 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: felt like it would be the worst thing. So what then? 333 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: I just thought, Well, I will just continue to do 334 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: the work that I love, and I will fly solo 335 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: and I would relish that that would be like a 336 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: new chapter. 337 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that's coming up 338 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 2: for me now is that burnout. As we said, it's 339 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: not a clinical diagnosis, and there's often quite or possibly 340 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: an existential connection to it. What am I doing, Who 341 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: am I doing it with? Why am I doing it? 342 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: Am I'm making the right choices for me at this 343 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: stage in my life, those that are bigger questions, and again, 344 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: when we don't listen to those, the body starts to 345 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 2: speak louder. We often talk about physical exhaustion and physical depletion, 346 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 2: but for me, the physicality comes when the emotional has 347 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 2: spain ignored, and the emotional is often we don't want 348 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: to look at the parts that are so raw, and 349 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: so we kind of skirt around the edges. And that's 350 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: where I think this existential lens is probably quite related 351 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: to burnout because I'm doing too many shoulds for other 352 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: people and ignoring what I know, whatever you want to 353 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: call it myself, I don't know. You know, my intuition 354 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: is speaking and I'm ignoring it to help others because 355 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: I should. 356 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: There was definitely a lot of that, and I remember 357 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: something on another one of our walks that really stuck 358 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: with me. And this was towards the end of last year, 359 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: and I was just, you know, grappling with some various 360 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: decisions and you talked about walking those different paths. Can 361 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: you share that advice you gave me, because it was 362 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: very powerful. 363 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 2: And you were remembering some things in detail that I 364 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: probably I off and just you know, riff as I'm 365 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: just present. I'm just present whatever's kind, so that they're 366 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: not things I've said a hundred times. I'd never really 367 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: talked about the hit by a bus fantasy and those 368 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: terms are that. But just reflecting on what you were saying. 369 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 2: But I think what you and I were talking about 370 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: then was some fear based things about what if, what 371 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: if this happens, what if that happens? And I find 372 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 2: a really useful response or a strategy to that is 373 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 2: to not just in your mind and not just in 374 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: a journal, and not just talking and not just therapy, 375 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: but to act, actually take some physical steps thinking about 376 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: what would happen if that came to fruition or if 377 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: I took that path, and then physically to walk back 378 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: to your starting point and physically to walk down a 379 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: separate path in a different direction, I mean, physically move 380 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: your body in a different direction. I think I said 381 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 2: to you. There's something called chair work in psychology which 382 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: kind of uses similar principles, where you're inviting one part 383 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: of a person. We're all made up of parts, and 384 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: these parts are conflicting, and these parts need to talk 385 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 2: to each other. And in chair work, in the therapeutic setting, 386 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 2: you're inviting one part of a person. So perhaps a 387 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: part that wants to leave, let's say, leave a job, 388 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 2: leave a marriage, change something, and then another part wants 389 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 2: to stay and wants a status quote. So we can 390 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: all relate to those even outside of the work domain. 391 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: And there's something about actually inviting a person to sit 392 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: in chair A and talk for part A, and then 393 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 2: sit in the second chair and talk for part B. 394 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: And the physical movement from chair. Now as I'm saying this, 395 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 2: there'll be people listening to this sounds bonkers. Why would 396 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 2: you ask someone to get up and say a few 397 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: sentences in one chair and then move themselves to the 398 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: next chair. But it's a way to shake off some 399 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: of the preconceved ideas, the faulty thinking, the expectations, the shoulds, 400 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: and just be clear with that part and let that 401 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 2: part have a voice. So the physicality matters. It shifts 402 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 2: something in our physiology. And what I think you and 403 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: I were talking about in the park was physically taking 404 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: yourself down that path and imagining. And I'm closing my 405 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: eyes as I'm saying it, but what would it feel like, 406 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: who would be there, what would it smell like? What 407 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: would I do? With my time, how would I be 408 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 2: as a partner, what would be like as a parent, 409 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: where would I live? Whatever all the questions are, and 410 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 2: then going back down starting point and going you know, 411 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: down path B and asking the same questions and something 412 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 2: around the physical, walking through us to really imagine it 413 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 2: before we shut it down. 414 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: I found that strategy very very helpful, you know, and 415 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: I think as like as I contemplated, you know, just 416 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: different scenarios, with the different decision points that I had 417 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: throughout twenty twenty four, I think it helped me make better, 418 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: clearer decisions using that strategy. It's funny in my twenties 419 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: when I studied Gastalt therapy, I did so much empty 420 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: chair work. 421 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 2: Okay, so you're well familiar. 422 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: I've spoken to many an empty chair. 423 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: Ah, they're great company, aren't They. 424 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: Love an empty chair? Although I think after doing about 425 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: three or four years of Costalt therapy. 426 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: This is you as a client, this is me as 427 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: a client. 428 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: So I studied as a therapist, but I saw a 429 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: Gastalt therapist as a client, and I think after about 430 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: four years of talking to empty chairs, you were ready 431 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: for a human enough, you know, we were just talking 432 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: off air briefly been around what are. 433 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: The tactics, what are the strategies? And I think we 434 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 2: need to understand this is not something you wrap in 435 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: a bow and take forward and see you never burn out. 436 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: This is about actually knowing who we are at our 437 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 2: very core. We need to know what I need. I 438 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: need to know what I need, and I need to 439 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 2: understand when I ignore that at what cost it comes to me. 440 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 2: I also need to understand and feel and appreciate the 441 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: dynamics between me and others in my life at this 442 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: relational piece, professionally and personally. And again, now, we can't 443 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 2: always honor our own needs in a relationship because there's 444 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 2: other people at play. So let's just give an example. 445 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: When you are in the company of someone that you 446 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 2: find exhausting and depleting, that can be a factor towards burnout. 447 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: It's not the only factor, but can be accumulative factor. 448 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: The only person who can change that is you. You 449 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: can either have a conversation with the person or multiple 450 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: conversations to talk about what happens in their orbit, or 451 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: you can just depending on the relationship and how high 452 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: stakes a relationship is, you can just say I'm not 453 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: going to spend time in this person's company anymore, because 454 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: it is emptying my tank. Knowing what I need, knowing 455 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: what we need, and then also knowing some of the 456 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: external contextual pressures that happened to all of us as workers, 457 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: as parents, as partners, as humans, and in the context 458 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 2: also of a world that's spinning out of control. And 459 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 2: then we couple that with all of these shoulds, and 460 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: so we ignore, and we put our blinkers back on, 461 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: and we think, well, everyone else seems fine, so I'll 462 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 2: escape marching along. Or you said, I'll take a holiday. 463 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Vietnam and a staycation in Melbourne. 464 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: And then when I got back, I felt fine. Band 465 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 2: aid good good, I mean a powerful band aid, but 466 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: it's not a permanent fix. And then you describe, well, 467 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: after a couple of weeks, some of the same experiences 468 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: start to set in again, and you think, damn, I 469 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 2: was doing so fine, and that's why I said, what 470 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 2: were the ingredients? How do we unpack that? How do 471 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: we define that? And we didn't even finish that, but 472 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: you said very clearly I wasn't contactable or responsible for 473 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: other people. Then you go back to the world, the 474 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: job the life you were living. And now, of course 475 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: we all have some responsibility to other people, but with 476 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 2: what magnitude and to how many is probably in our control. 477 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: That's very true. One thing I reflected on in terms 478 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: of something when I started to think about it it 479 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: started to help, is that I had spent an inordinate 480 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: amount of time in twenty twenty four worrying about things 481 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: that I had no control over. And it does relate 482 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: to the responsibility because while I felt deeply responsible for 483 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: this team of people that I employed part of, well, 484 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, I'm responsible for everything. But again flowed thinking 485 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: because I can't be responsible for everything. I can't be 486 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: responsible for their emotions, their actions, their behaviors, their thoughts, 487 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: their feelings. None of that is within my control. And 488 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: again it sounds really obvious, but when I tried to 489 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: unpack when things were causing me a lot of stress 490 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: and what it was that was causing me stress more 491 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: often than not, it was worrying about things that I 492 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: had zero control over. And starting to have that awareness 493 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: and trying to just let go of those worries, I 494 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: found incredibly free, sort of once I got to that point, 495 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: and it's hard to let them go. Even when you 496 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: become aware. 497 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: Of course, awareness is not action. 498 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: No, no, but at least it's the first step. And 499 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: I think because I started to practice that, and I 500 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: started to build that muscle of going, Okay, what can 501 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: I influence here? What can I control? Okay, great, will 502 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: take actions here, but what can I not control or influence. 503 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to stop thinking about that because I've wasted 504 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,959 Speaker 1: so much thinking time on all that stuff. 505 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: And the toll that takes on your body. You know, 506 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: we're talking about the physical depletion. You probably we didn't 507 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: really list, but you know, some of the common symptoms 508 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: of burner are getting sick often because your immune system's 509 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: taken such a hit. And then there's a lot of 510 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: quite serious diseases that often show themselves again and again 511 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: with autoimmune And I'm not saying there or there's not 512 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: direct causation in a lot of those stories, but I 513 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: know in the years that I worked in the clinical space, 514 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: I would see repeatedly a lot of the same presentations, 515 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: not psychological, but what they would mention in passing would 516 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: be that they had a lot of gut issues or 517 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: that they got sick very often. I am this is 518 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: an odd reflection. But I've heard physically with my own 519 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: ears back in my therapy days, a lot of guts churning. 520 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: I mean that literally, I've heard the sound of the 521 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: gut when you're sitting quietly in a therapy room and 522 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: someone's just talking, and I can hear physical distress almost. 523 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: So there's you know a lot of people who have 524 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: gut issues. Well, we know the brain and the gut 525 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: were intertwined way back when, so I think we need 526 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 2: to be in tune to those physical messages as well. 527 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: I'm sitting with you, knowing you personally and professionally. If 528 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 2: I was just sitting with you professionally, I would still 529 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: be asking these same questions. I don't sort of turn 530 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: my psychological curiosity and expertise and knowledge off because I'm 531 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: speaking to someone in a different role. I would be 532 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: seeing the leader in front of me, thinking, at what 533 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: costs to you? It's taking a toll? Now, how much 534 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: of this do you want to share with your team? 535 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: What kind of changes do you want to make in 536 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: your life? How much longer do you want to continue 537 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: with this status quo that's coming at a cost. Because, 538 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: of course, I think a leader is partially not responsible 539 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: but impactful in the well bang of their people, but 540 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: you're not solely responsible for their well bang. And one 541 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: of the things I talk about a lot in corporates 542 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 2: is the importance of agency and accountability to each and 543 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: every person, regardless of the role, or the tenure or 544 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: the seniority of the income. 545 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: I love that as advice, and I've loved this discussion 546 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: unpacking what is burnout and for me personally, how do 547 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: I try to not end up where I was last 548 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: year again in twenty twenty five, And I'm feeling very 549 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: optimistic and hopeful that this year will be a very 550 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: different year. So thank you for your insights and sharing 551 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: it and obviously all the walks around the part helping 552 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: me unpack things last year. 553 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: Well, I take my hat off to you in this 554 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: forum to share, you know, because we're not just in 555 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: the park and other people are listening, and that's the gift, 556 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: and that's why we choose to create content in spaces 557 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,479 Speaker 2: outside the metaphoric park, because we know that other people 558 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 2: will have walked in your shoes and my shoes before too, 559 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: So I think it's cutos to you for sharing and 560 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: a lot easier when we're in an air conditioning studio 561 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: without two dogs as well. 562 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: I hope you like this chat with Sabina as much 563 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: as I enjoyed having it, and I really hope that 564 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: it helped you with whatever might be going on in 565 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: your work life. And maybe you're wondering how am I 566 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: doing now? Well, I am doing a million and one 567 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: percent better, is the absolute honest truth. And in a 568 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: future episode, I'll be unpacking a little bit more around 569 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: exactly how I managed that recovery. I'll also be getting 570 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer your questions. 571 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: So if you've got something that you would like a 572 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: couple of psychologists perspectives on, please send me a message 573 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: via the email in the show notes, or you can 574 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: reach out to me on LinkedIn or Instagram with anything 575 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: you'd like to ask. If you like today's show, make 576 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: sure you get follow on your podcast app to be 577 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded 578 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warringery people, part of 579 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: the Kolhan nation.