Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of
Speaker 1: First Nations excellence to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
Speaker 1: history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Proud Barbara woman and founder of Black Wattle Coaching and Consulting,
Speaker 1: Caroline cal This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen
Speaker 1: and unseeded Aboriginal lands of the Runjuri people of the
Speaker 1: Coolin Nation. I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders,
Speaker 1: your elders, and all owners of country, of this beautiful
Speaker 1: place that we call home. Well, I'm really looking forward
Speaker 1: to today's conversation with two highly respected community leaders, grassroots activists,
Speaker 1: community activists, parents, daughters, aunts, you know, cousins, people who
Speaker 1: I look up to. The First People's Assembly Victoria Coaches,
Speaker 1: Niagara Murray and Reubenberg. Thank you so much for being here,
Speaker 1: you too, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2: It's great to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to Janni Up. I mean, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: how exhausted you both are. I think, like many of
Speaker 1: our mobs and families and communities right now, with this
Speaker 1: the national discourse the upcoming referendum, but coupled with all
Speaker 1: of the work that you follows have been doing locally
Speaker 1: since twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen with treaty. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much for being here in light of all of
Speaker 1: that today, before we get in to talk about you know,
Speaker 1: what you mother up to with the treaty process, and
Speaker 1: of course you know, talking a bit about the referendum,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we could start with, yeah, a bit
Speaker 1: about your personal stories. Yeah, where you're from, your families,
Speaker 1: your nations, your clans, and I might start with the Unigara.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'll start with acknowledging country because I'm on
Speaker 3: Randi Worng country today, So my respectful acknowledgment of the
Speaker 3: Randi Warrong Mob.
Speaker 4: I'm a proud.
Speaker 3: Judi Order Wamba Wamba ja Ja Warung and good old woman.
Speaker 3: And I grew up in Sheperdon, in a big community
Speaker 3: up there, and my families are the Murray's and the Nicholases,
Speaker 3: and I've got a lot of strong family connections and
Speaker 3: kinship to many parts of Victoria and New South Wales.
Speaker 3: So I come from a big mob and really strong
Speaker 3: families and our families are kind of a political cultural
Speaker 3: family that's kind of been part of the political movement
Speaker 3: over many generations. So really proud to be born and
Speaker 3: bred in Victoria, grew up amongst it, and yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: a mom of four kids. As you said, I've recently
Speaker 3: been elected as the CoA Chair of the First People's Assembly,
Speaker 3: which is a real honor and privilege to serve our
Speaker 3: communities on the Assembly.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm Reuben ruben Berg.
Speaker 5: I'm here at Maxim in Perth at the moment, so
Speaker 5: we acknowledge the traditional liners over this side of the country.
Speaker 5: And yeah, alongside Nagara, very very pleased to be one
Speaker 5: of the CoA chairs of the First People's Assembly Victoria.
Speaker 5: My family's Grenijmora people in eastern March and so from
Speaker 5: down in Framlingham is where most of my family is
Speaker 5: from than Yang Pruna Hopkins falls down that way, which
Speaker 5: is I believe one of the widest waterfalls in the
Speaker 5: Southern Hemisphere, which is one of my favorite spots to
Speaker 5: go and visit down that way. But I grew up
Speaker 5: in m in Melbourne and lived most of my life
Speaker 5: there and kind of been inspired by my family's history
Speaker 5: in this space as well as with Nagara and kind
Speaker 5: of trying to you done from what previous generations have
Speaker 5: done and put my hand up through part of the Assembly. Yes,
Speaker 5: it's real pleasure to be in Dad as well. We've
Speaker 5: got two young kids, so that's always a part of
Speaker 5: my inspiration for the work that I do is family.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. It's yeah, it's always lovely to hear
Speaker 1: people's personal stories and you know who they are and
Speaker 1: where they come from, and you mob are from good stock,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I want to I want to acknowledge
Speaker 1: you both and your families and your old ones too,
Speaker 1: and the many legacies that they and yourselves have created
Speaker 1: and continue to create. So in July this year, you
Speaker 1: both were elected as co chairs of the first Assembly
Speaker 1: Victoria and so I just want to say huge congratulations
Speaker 1: in that. It's a really yeah, it's really deadly to
Speaker 1: see how that group has grown and evolved, in the
Speaker 1: strength of that group of being a really representative culturally
Speaker 1: rope group. So yeah, huge congratulations in taking on that feat.
Speaker 1: Imagine it would have been. Yeah, it's not an easy one,
Speaker 1: I can imagine.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's definitely been a it's been a challenge. We
Speaker 5: knew it wasn't going to be straightforward, but it's something
Speaker 5: I think for Gara and I were both passionate about
Speaker 5: and knew it was it was our opportunity to step
Speaker 5: up to this role as well now as the coach is,
Speaker 5: having been part of the first part of the Assembly
Speaker 5: and both heavily involved in that, and for me, I
Speaker 5: just knew that it felt like this was the time
Speaker 5: to kind of step up and play this next role
Speaker 5: for this next version of the Assembly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. We worked on the when we transitioned
Speaker 1: from v tach into setting up the Assembly, and I
Speaker 1: must say, you know, seeing this year's people who put
Speaker 1: their hat in the ring, the candidates, the people who
Speaker 1: were elected, you know, it really is such a representative
Speaker 1: group of people from all different walks of life, different countries,
Speaker 1: different ages, different backgrounds and passions. So yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: deadly to see this group grow and evolve, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure you, being in the first iteration, have grown and
Speaker 1: evolved alongside it as well. You know, the subject of treaty,
Speaker 1: I think, which is something that many of your families
Speaker 1: and elders and leaders and my families have called for,
Speaker 1: has been discussed a lot recently, I think by their
Speaker 1: everyday Australian and you know, coming out of conversations from
Speaker 1: the Uliver of the State Ulary Statement of the Heart
Speaker 1: which called for voice, treaty and truth, it's kind of
Speaker 1: become a bit of a more common phrase or understanding
Speaker 1: what people are sort of the everyday Australian would know.
Speaker 1: And so I wonder if possibly we could start there
Speaker 1: with just a little bit about, yeah, what is a
Speaker 1: treaty for those people who don't know, and then I'd
Speaker 1: love to hear about like the work that you followers
Speaker 1: have undertaken in the last few years, and yeah, where
Speaker 1: you're up to at this stage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's been a big journey to get us
Speaker 3: to this point, obviously, and you know, we've got to
Speaker 3: acknowledge the old people that have been calling for change
Speaker 3: and calling for treaties for a long time. And obviously
Speaker 3: it's been a long journey for us here in Victoria,
Speaker 3: you know, starting way back when we called for treaties,
Speaker 3: I think it was around twenty sixteen, and then in
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, you know, we introduced the first treaty laws
Speaker 3: in the.
Speaker 4: Country, passed by the Victorian Parliament. So it's been a lot.
Speaker 3: Of contributions and a huge collaborative process to get us
Speaker 3: to this point. And obviously through the Ulary Statement with
Speaker 3: Voice Treaty truth, I really feel we're really advancing all
Speaker 3: three elements of that Orary Statement from the heart. And
Speaker 3: you know, we've got the first People's Assembly. It's a
Speaker 3: democratically elected, an independent body. It's diverse, it's made up
Speaker 3: of true owners of country, but it represents all the
Speaker 3: different regions in Victoria and all Victorian abaginal title on
Speaker 3: to people that live here on our country. So it's
Speaker 3: something that we've never built before. And so for us,
Speaker 3: we feel that the Assembly is Victoria's voice, you know,
Speaker 3: it's you know, our cultural way of governing. It's us
Speaker 3: coming together to determine what our representation will be when
Speaker 3: we do eventually sit down with the state government to
Speaker 3: do a statewide treaty. You know, we've got some really
Speaker 3: progressive treaty work that we've done in Victoria alone. Like
Speaker 3: you know, we've got a solid treaty negotiation framework, so
Speaker 3: the ground rules are kind of set. We've got the
Speaker 3: treaty authority coming, you know, the first of its kind
Speaker 3: a legislated treaty authority that's Aboriginal lead and we'll oversee
Speaker 3: the process and you know, we've got the Self Determination
Speaker 3: Fund to start to get you know, all our mobs
Speaker 3: prepared to do their treaty negotiations. And throughout that process too,
Speaker 3: we discussed you know, truth telling, which has also been
Speaker 3: a long call from our people. So we've got the
Speaker 3: first truth telling commission in the country, the eurok Justice
Speaker 3: Commission Eurok Justice Commission, which is our truth telling Commission,
Speaker 3: but has the truth Telling inquiry underway. So when you
Speaker 3: look at voice treaty and truth for us, we're already
Speaker 3: doing that, you know, on our terms in our way
Speaker 3: here in Victoria. So yeah, it's been a massive effort
Speaker 3: from all our mob over many generations to get us
Speaker 3: to this point.
Speaker 4: And obviously it's a call that we've had right across
Speaker 4: the country.
Speaker 3: So other states and territories are undertaking their own treaty
Speaker 3: and truth telling and how they'll be represented when it
Speaker 3: comes to you know, those those jurisdictions undertaking their treaties.
Speaker 3: So I feel like, you know, really proud to be
Speaker 3: a part of it. It's massive when I think about it,
Speaker 3: Like I just I get tired just thinking about it
Speaker 3: because it's just like you know, there's the breadth of
Speaker 3: it is so wide, and it's such a big responsibility
Speaker 3: and as I said, like it's a real honor and
Speaker 3: privilege for us to carry that responsibility and the burden
Speaker 3: too for our mob as we kind of head towards treaties.
Speaker 1: It is a huge amount of work that you fellas
Speaker 1: have been doing. There's no denying and building on those yeah,
Speaker 1: heartfault legacies, but also just coming together from all of
Speaker 1: your different you know, nations, clans, families and working together
Speaker 1: to agreement make wild agreement making. I imagine, Yeah, it'd
Speaker 1: be quite a journey and your mob should be so
Speaker 1: proud of what you have, what legacy you have carried
Speaker 1: on in this phase of it. I mean we mentioned that,
Speaker 1: So the treaty negotiation, your authority, the independent umpire, and
Speaker 1: I believe there's also the elder's voice that will be
Speaker 1: established and these are kind of the key kind of
Speaker 1: pillars to keep this process, agreement making process accountable. You
Speaker 1: know when firstly, you know, how far away do you
Speaker 1: think we will be from seeing a treaty? Is this
Speaker 1: something that we will see soon in our generation? In
Speaker 1: your time?
Speaker 5: Is chairs yeah, Look, I think there's different ways of
Speaker 5: looking at it in terms of what a treaty outcome
Speaker 5: actually is. And what's really important about the work we've
Speaker 5: been able to do so far and working with community
Speaker 5: and work with our members to get done, was that
Speaker 5: treaty is not just one thing that happens at the
Speaker 5: end of a very very long road. It's actually lots
Speaker 5: of little things can be treaties. And so the framework
Speaker 5: that we put in place has this idea of introm agreements,
Speaker 5: and what that means is we can sit down and
Speaker 5: negotiate with the state, after we listen to our community
Speaker 5: about what they want and have those conversations with community,
Speaker 5: we can sit down and negotiate particular outcomes we want
Speaker 5: under treaty, and we can sign those off and say
Speaker 5: that's a treaty outcome, and we can then start implementing
Speaker 5: those and then we can move on to the next thing,
Speaker 5: and the next thing, and the next thing, the next thing,
Speaker 5: keep building and adding on to that. As our community
Speaker 5: is ready for that, as our orgs are ready for that,
Speaker 5: as we're ready for that, the state's ready for.
Speaker 2: That, we can just continue to add to that.
Speaker 5: And so what that means is that once the Treaty
Speaker 5: Authority is up and running and is ready to actually
Speaker 5: oversee negotiations, which should hopefully be early next year, we
Speaker 5: can sit down with the state and start those negotiations
Speaker 5: and get some outcomes. Hopefully within the next eighteen months,
Speaker 5: there'll be intro agreements that we can sign off on.
Speaker 5: That's still going to take lots of work with our
Speaker 5: communities and lots of discussions to make sure we're doing
Speaker 5: that the right way. We're not just going to go
Speaker 5: in there tomorrow and negotiate outcomes, but there's the scope
Speaker 5: to have intra agreements in place within the next twelve
Speaker 5: eighteen months, and then we'll just keep building on that.
Speaker 2: And we just.
Speaker 5: Want to make sure that we're laying really strong foundations
Speaker 5: in terms of how we go about doing our business
Speaker 5: and the structures we set up so that those next
Speaker 5: things can just keep moving along on that solid base
Speaker 5: we've built up. So there will be treaty outcomes within
Speaker 5: the next twelve to eighteen months, but that won't be
Speaker 5: the end of it. That'll just be the start, and
Speaker 5: it'll keep building on that and it'll be you know,
Speaker 5: could be decades that we keep having those conversations to
Speaker 5: keep strengthening the outcomes that we're achieving through treatment.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so fascinating Rubin to hear how this conversation
Speaker 1: has yeah progressed and that I guess what I'm hearing
Speaker 1: is that it's a really iterative agreement making process, and
Speaker 1: it's the journey in working with the state and with
Speaker 1: traditional owners, and that for some of the groups who
Speaker 1: aren't represented through formal structures traditional owner settlement acts, native title,
Speaker 1: that there's opportunities for them to opt in as this
Speaker 1: process grows and evolves in this interim treaty making process. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks for providing that clarity. You know, we're having this
Speaker 1: kind of really big national conversation around the referendum and
Speaker 1: this kind of rhetoric that's you know, isn't a new
Speaker 1: rhetoric for us, but that through these processes that you know,
Speaker 1: we're going to take people's backs. We heard it through Marlbo,
Speaker 1: We've hearing it through some of the you know, the
Speaker 1: no campaign that's happening right now. You know what, I
Speaker 1: know that it's up to the every nation and group
Speaker 1: to decide of what will be in their agreement. But
Speaker 1: what has there been any discussions about what reasonably like
Speaker 1: what is reasonably on the table when it comes to
Speaker 1: the state government or anyone relinquishing anything through this process
Speaker 1: around what are some of the sort of outcomes that
Speaker 1: we might see through a treaty process.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm happy to chime in first, and that when Agar,
Speaker 5: I can jump in with some other ideas too. But
Speaker 5: it's important to note that in that question, there are
Speaker 5: two different types of treaty outcomes that there's going to be.
Speaker 5: There's going to be the statewide treaty outcomes, which is
Speaker 5: the role of the Assembly to work with community and
Speaker 5: to negotiate. But there's also going to be traditional Liner
Speaker 5: based treaties. And so that's where tradition Liner groups they
Speaker 5: don't have to be the existing structures, they don't have
Speaker 5: to be have native title status. They can use those structures,
Speaker 5: but they can work out how they want to come
Speaker 5: together and work out how they want to be recognized
Speaker 5: and aligned, and they'll be able to negotiate their own
Speaker 5: local traditional linerbased treatment.
Speaker 2: So there's possibly.
Speaker 5: Different things that are going to be on the table
Speaker 5: for negotiation at those different levels. And I always like
Speaker 5: to start this conversation with the big picture and then
Speaker 5: maybe a go I can give some of the smaller
Speaker 5: other examples, but the big picture is the legislation that
Speaker 5: was passed by the state said, okay, Assembly, you have
Speaker 5: to come up with the rules for treaty making, and
Speaker 5: part of that, you have to make a list of
Speaker 5: all the things that can't be negotiated as a part
Speaker 5: of the treaty. That was what the legislation said. We
Speaker 5: needed a list of what's not on the table. And
Speaker 5: if you go and look at the rule book we
Speaker 5: came up with, you can go and find the section
Speaker 5: where it talks about things that aren't allowed to be negotiated,
Speaker 5: and it's blank. There's nothing on that list. We had
Speaker 5: to put something in there because that's what it said.
Speaker 5: We had to put include a list, but the list
Speaker 5: is blank because the state has said everything's on the table. Now,
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean we're going to get everything where we've
Speaker 5: got to be realistic about this.
Speaker 2: We can't just go in there and ask for the
Speaker 2: moon and expect to get it.
Speaker 5: But there's nothing that's as a default. The state has
Speaker 5: said no, no, we're not even going to look at that.
Speaker 5: They have obligations under our framework that we've agreed with
Speaker 5: them to consider every proposal let's put to them. That
Speaker 5: doesn't mean they'll agree to it, but they have to
Speaker 5: at least consider it. So at the higher level, for
Speaker 5: traditional liner groups when they want to sit down and
Speaker 5: negotiate for the Assembly, when we go to negotiate and
Speaker 5: when we have discussions with our community about what we want,
Speaker 5: there's nothing where we're going to say, oh no, but
Speaker 5: we can't do that because the state's already said no,
Speaker 5: that's we've got a blank page to do those things.
Speaker 5: But maybe to go do you want to share some
Speaker 5: of the more kind of particular things that groups might
Speaker 5: want to be looking at.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as Rubens said, you know, there'll be many treaties,
Speaker 3: so that statewide on will cover you know, all state
Speaker 3: wide matters and it will benefit all first people that
Speaker 3: live here in Victoria. And then there'll be the local
Speaker 3: Trushona treaties and that'll be obviously up to those groups
Speaker 3: to what the content of the treaties will be. But
Speaker 3: also they're aspirations and this is their chance to really
Speaker 3: dream big. You know, I know that from a statewide perspective,
Speaker 3: we're looking at, you know, negotiating what the next iteration
Speaker 3: of the Assembly will be so an aboriginal representative body
Speaker 3: to look at, you know, that structural reform, you know,
Speaker 3: state reform to take over certain powers and resources that
Speaker 3: we can transfer to a new body that we can
Speaker 3: finally have control over our own affairs and make decisions
Speaker 3: about the things that you know, impact our people. We
Speaker 3: look at, you know, on trush ower business. You know,
Speaker 3: we've been part of a CHWO hundred and thirty five
Speaker 3: year you know, conflict, a war in our country.
Speaker 4: So we need peace and healing.
Speaker 3: So what does that look like in a trius own
Speaker 3: treaty around you know, ending that kind of dispute and
Speaker 3: you know, having a bit of a piece of court
Speaker 3: around that. You know, true owners will have many aspirations
Speaker 3: around land and water rights, you know, the land that's
Speaker 3: on the country. They'll look at, you know, language of vitalization, education, health,
Speaker 3: justice as it applies to the communities. So I think
Speaker 3: it's important to think big. But as Ruben said, nothing
Speaker 3: will be off the table.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's it's just so fascinating. You fellows have been
Speaker 1: incredibly busy as we've discussed. But yeah, so there will
Speaker 1: be many treaties, there will be an overarching statewide treaty
Speaker 1: that will have some benefit and cover those not represented
Speaker 1: by formal structures such as a traditional owner group. But
Speaker 1: then there will be these local clan based treaties too,
Speaker 1: And it's really fascinating to hear that the state government
Speaker 1: have committed to considering all things on the table and
Speaker 1: that yeah, I think that, you know, if anyone's listening,
Speaker 1: you know, it's really important to go and have a
Speaker 1: look at that rule book and to sort of unpack
Speaker 1: that further, because I think that's going to be really
Speaker 1: interesting to see how these negotiations transpire. And I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's incredible to hear where you followers have
Speaker 1: taken this and that all the hard yards you would
Speaker 1: have had to get it to this point, and that ultimately,
Speaker 1: you know, there is a misconception about us wanting to
Speaker 1: take people's backyards. You know, our mob don't want handouts.
Speaker 1: We just want to hand up. We just want to
Speaker 1: equal footing in this country. And for many of us,
Speaker 1: when we have access to our land and our resources
Speaker 1: and our ways of governing, it's about preserving our culture.
Speaker 1: It's about having as you said, cis Nagara, you know,
Speaker 1: language revitalation, revitalization and programs that are for us, and
Speaker 1: ways to bring people back to country, back to culture.
Speaker 1: It has really nothing to do with take from yet
Speaker 1: white people. It's all about preserving for us. And I
Speaker 1: guess the last thing that I want to say is
Speaker 1: with the treaty making process, is that you know, when
Speaker 1: it started, the formal treaty making process, it was by
Speaker 1: no means a perfect process. There were many criticisms, all welcomed.
Speaker 1: You know, Black critique is inherently a good thing. And yeah,
Speaker 1: to see where this is gone and letting go of
Speaker 1: this idea that it had to be perfect, is just
Speaker 1: an interesting observation for me, you know. With that in mind,
Speaker 1: you know, there has been a lot of discussion recently
Speaker 1: around I guess thinking if we're switching a little bit
Speaker 1: to the referendum conversation, because these things do intersect, I guess,
Speaker 1: and there is a view even my own family, for instance,
Speaker 1: the barber and people, we don't have a unified position
Speaker 1: on what's happening in the referendum, and in fact, it's
Speaker 1: creating quite a lot of division we had. We've got
Speaker 1: native title land back, we've got mob moving back to
Speaker 1: country and we have a treaty side who wants treaty first,
Speaker 1: and we have people who really supportive of the Voice
Speaker 1: and see the opportunity that this is, I guess, a
Speaker 1: step in the right direction to really have a consolidated
Speaker 1: national policy approach around dealing with outcomes. And so my
Speaker 1: family is very divided. You know, Is there is there
Speaker 1: any from your both of your perspectives. I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear both your perspectives on this. Is there any considerations
Speaker 1: around the sequencing and what can we learn from this
Speaker 1: notion of letting go of something being so perfect from
Speaker 1: what you follows have gone through in the treaty process.
Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear the question is is there
Speaker 1: any implications on the sequencing and yeah, what do you
Speaker 1: think we can learn from this voice process from how
Speaker 1: you followers have got the right people around the table
Speaker 1: to shape up the treaty work here in Victoria.
Speaker 5: So in terms of the sequencing, you know, I think
Speaker 5: there's lots of ways that you can you can think
Speaker 5: about it in terms of how you might want to
Speaker 5: go about it. I know that here in Victoria we've
Speaker 5: seen that we have aspirations around treaty and the government
Speaker 5: is willing to discuss treaty with us. But for us
Speaker 5: to be able to have a treaty, we needed a
Speaker 5: way of having a collective conversation with first peoples.
Speaker 2: So we needed the Assembly.
Speaker 5: First to be able to have those discussions, like we
Speaker 5: needed a voice to be able to sit down and
Speaker 5: negotiate treats. I think that it's a really critical part
Speaker 5: of the process, and it would be difficult. I think
Speaker 5: at a COMMO of they would have just say let's
Speaker 5: just snap our fingers and start negotiating treaties like that,
Speaker 5: you need it. I believe you need a collective way
Speaker 5: of understanding how that's going to work. Even if there
Speaker 5: are going to be just treat is between clan groups
Speaker 5: or smaller groups and not a collective nationwide treaty, you
Speaker 5: still need a way of bringing all those conversations together
Speaker 5: to decide what that process is going to look like.
Speaker 5: And to my mind, right now, we've got a kom
Speaker 5: Off government that's saying, yes, we want to work out
Speaker 5: how to make sure there is a voice, and that
Speaker 5: can then lead on to treaty and truth. And if
Speaker 5: I think that my aspiration is to get treaty outcomes
Speaker 5: both in Victoria and at the national level, we are
Speaker 5: much closer to be able to get to negotiate treaties
Speaker 5: if we have a yes in the referendum, if there
Speaker 5: is a voice, and if it's a no, we are
Speaker 5: further away from being able to get treaties. That's just
Speaker 5: the reality in how I stay it. And so if
Speaker 5: people do have aspirations to get treaty, I think voice
Speaker 5: is the best way.
Speaker 2: We're going to be able to get that.
Speaker 5: And you know, yep, you could do it all different ways,
Speaker 5: but right now, this is the process that's being undertaken
Speaker 5: based on what the ulary statement said that it will
Speaker 5: should be voice treating truth. It's not the government just
Speaker 5: kind of making up an order. They're kind of responding
Speaker 5: to what we said from that rulary statement. So yeah,
Speaker 5: to my mind, voice is the right way to go
Speaker 5: and then to treaty. But if it was a whole,
Speaker 5: if we were on a blank page again and someone
Speaker 5: said treaty first, I wouldn't be complaining about that. But
Speaker 5: right now on a path where voice can lead us
Speaker 5: to treaty, and so I want to make sure we
Speaker 5: grab that as that opportunity as best we can right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. What about you, sis,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about this matter, because it is
Speaker 1: something that seems like are we splitting hairs or is
Speaker 1: this really important for us to have this discernment around
Speaker 1: the process, and we haven't had the space to have
Speaker 1: that sort of critically and so I'm keen to hear
Speaker 1: your thoughts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, voice treaty truth, it's kind of
Speaker 3: all dependent on each other. And like Rubin said, we
Speaker 3: booked that. Obviously how would be represented if we are
Speaker 3: to enter into an agreement with the state, So we
Speaker 3: had to build that representation first, and it's not perfect,
Speaker 3: but you know, like I said, we've never built it before.
Speaker 4: And then obviously to.
Speaker 3: Shana, groups will have to get their representation in place
Speaker 3: as well to do local treaties, so how they'll be
Speaker 3: represented for their elders, leaders, family clans of those groups.
Speaker 3: And obviously we're not one big homogenous group and we've
Speaker 3: seen that in many things that we do. And you know,
Speaker 3: I'm respectful of the different opinions amongst our our mobs
Speaker 3: because there are those different opinions in regards to you know, yes, no,
Speaker 3: I'm sure maybe you know for us even in the
Speaker 3: Assembly chamber. You know, we took it to a vote
Speaker 3: in our Assembly and overwhelmingly the majority of our members
Speaker 3: supported a yes vote and a voice to the Parliament,
Speaker 3: and we looked at how that the voice had enabled.
Speaker 4: Us to work on how we did represent.
Speaker 3: So then we kind of discovered throughout that process that
Speaker 3: we'd need truth telling, you know, if we're going to
Speaker 3: have treaties. So we're kind of showing that we're doing
Speaker 3: all three at the same time, and they're all dependent
Speaker 3: on each other.
Speaker 4: And I know that.
Speaker 3: There's been a lot of racist fear mangering out there
Speaker 3: that's confused people, all the misinformation, so a mob a
Speaker 3: feeling really exhausted, And I just want to acknowledge that too,
Speaker 3: that with that referendum debate, it's caused a lot of stress.
Speaker 4: For our people.
Speaker 3: And our moble feeling exhausted, and all the elevation of
Speaker 3: the racism that's happened. You know, it happens every day
Speaker 3: in our lives anyways, but this is just a whole
Speaker 3: different level. But I think that you know, this is
Speaker 3: the first time we're having that conversation proper across the
Speaker 3: country and what our nation will look like, because even
Speaker 3: though it's a voice to the Parliament. It's so big,
Speaker 3: it's so symbolic now that it's about the narrative of
Speaker 3: this country and how we will coexist into the future.
Speaker 4: So how do we come together?
Speaker 3: And you know, and that's what a treaty will do,
Speaker 3: because a treaty is really just an agreement. Agreements happen
Speaker 3: every day in this country, thousands of agreements that happens
Speaker 3: right across this nation, and it's really just a commitment
Speaker 3: to a fair and respectful process so that we can
Speaker 3: enter into the series of negotiations. As we said before,
Speaker 3: you know, treaties will be forever. Now that's just our future.
Speaker 3: That's what it's going to look like. So how do
Speaker 3: we come to the table as equals? But how do
Speaker 3: we address the injustices and the atrocities like what Rook's
Speaker 3: doing now around that transactional account of the injustices that's
Speaker 3: happened in Victoria, because we need to reveal those from
Speaker 3: the past to move forward to the future. So it's
Speaker 3: a really piovotal time for us. I feel as a
Speaker 3: mob in this country and we're really copytent, you know,
Speaker 3: So I always just want to acknowledge that and that
Speaker 3: you know, we respect the different opinions and for people
Speaker 3: to have their own expressions and ideas, but we felt
Speaker 3: that the best way forward for us, as Ruben said,
Speaker 3: was a yes vote, and it will complement the process
Speaker 3: that we're doing around our path to treaty and truth telling.
Speaker 4: So yeah, we want to get excited about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just so much happening and our more feels
Speaker 3: so overwhelmed.
Speaker 4: So yeah, we'll get third eventually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think and I really appreciate both of
Speaker 1: your perspectives on that, and I feel you on that.
Speaker 1: It'sis you know, here at Blackwadle, in my circles with
Speaker 1: my friends, you know, we've held space for all opinions
Speaker 1: and all feelings because for us, you know, we where
Speaker 1: the babies, the daughters of the interventions of the stolen generations,
Speaker 1: you know, of the stolen wealth of the endless. You know,
Speaker 1: reports and recommendations that have fallen on deaf ears, you know,
Speaker 1: And so we come at this process knowing that governments
Speaker 1: have tried to kill, subjugate silence, and raise us in
Speaker 1: you know, the home that we've cared for. And so
Speaker 1: I know that our mob just carrying that immense sense
Speaker 1: of responsibility for us and that I guess what I'm
Speaker 1: seeing is that because of that responsibility. Yes, so many
Speaker 1: of us are weary, and I think some of us
Speaker 1: do want to feel like we can get excited about
Speaker 1: this process. But there is this kind of view and
Speaker 1: I've shared it. I've waxed, I've wayne, I've been hard, yes,
Speaker 1: and I've been to know and I'm listening, I'm learning.
Speaker 1: I've had fear, I've been scared, I've agonized. You know,
Speaker 1: I've had many moments of tears and hard yarns with
Speaker 1: mob and my family, and it hasn't been a straight line.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the challenge we're seeing, is that
Speaker 1: White Australia is waking up and is you know, really
Speaker 1: grabbing this opportunity with both hands. But there are many
Speaker 1: of us who have felt that this conversation has taken
Speaker 1: place kind of adjacent to us, and I think it
Speaker 1: is really important to acknowledge all of the feelings right
Speaker 1: now that our mob are having. And I think for
Speaker 1: many of us, we all want to actualize this world
Speaker 1: where it's based on Aboriginal knowledge, self determination, self governance,
Speaker 1: not relying on governments at all. And so it does
Speaker 1: feel really heavy and really symbolic. But I do just
Speaker 1: want to circle back to this notion what you said,
Speaker 1: because it is something that has come up, which is
Speaker 1: this is a process and that the voice, you know,
Speaker 1: is the vehicle to treaties, and that we have to
Speaker 1: get to that place to be able to imagine more,
Speaker 1: and that it's okay also to feel the feelings we
Speaker 1: feel because we are all carrying so much responsibility. We
Speaker 1: always want to get it right, you know, and demand
Speaker 1: a bit more, and we're bloody hard on ourselves as
Speaker 1: mob too. Have all the answers, have it all figured out.
Speaker 1: But I think if anything I want to say is
Speaker 1: just to give confidence in that this process will evolve,
Speaker 1: just like everything else. And so but yeah, it is
Speaker 1: okay to fear the feel Neither are mutually exclusive. They
Speaker 1: will all compliment one another and together that will be
Speaker 1: ab or to yeah, provide some strong, strong way forwards.
Speaker 1: We can't have one in isolation, is what I'm hearing.
Speaker 1: I guess you know with that in mind. You know
Speaker 1: you mentioned before that the Assembly have taken a position
Speaker 1: on supporting a yes, and Ruben, I saw you out
Speaker 1: on the weekend. I know your mother out yarning and campaigning,
Speaker 1: and I think that is a really promising thing for
Speaker 1: anyone who is like me who has sort of felt
Speaker 1: on the fence or fearful or worried whilst acknowledging their emotions.
Speaker 1: You know, what would you say to people at the
Speaker 1: moment who are still yet sitting on the fence and undecided,
Speaker 1: like where can they go? Who can they reach out to? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Any advice on that for people?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, as I said before, like
Speaker 3: the voice has enabled us to get to where we
Speaker 3: are today in Victorian to make really good progress, and
Speaker 3: we want, you know, people from around the country to
Speaker 3: also have that benefit from having a voice to the parliament.
Speaker 4: It has been challenging for all of us to participate
Speaker 4: in this referendum debate because we're often politicized, were used
Speaker 4: as a political football, and that's what's happened.
Speaker 3: And as you said before, Carolyn, like it feels like
Speaker 3: a conversation that's happened about us without us, and we're
Speaker 3: just sort of coming in now.
Speaker 4: And obviously for our.
Speaker 3: People, we were on the end of it now because
Speaker 3: there is a lot of racism and debate that's happening,
Speaker 3: you know, right around the country. But I think it's
Speaker 3: important that, you know, as Ruben said, we just stick
Speaker 3: to the question that's been proposed.
Speaker 4: You know, we've got to look after.
Speaker 3: Ourselves in community and our self care and like socials
Speaker 3: and things, because it's just been really elevated, you know,
Speaker 3: over the last few months, because this is a position
Speaker 3: that's been so scrutinized over years now and we're just
Speaker 3: coming to the end of it, and you know that
Speaker 3: it's getting harder when we're only weeks away so when
Speaker 3: we do go and vote in the referendum, and the
Speaker 3: wider Australia has also started to you know, attack their
Speaker 3: own Aussie heroes like you know, Jimmy Barnes and Johnny
Speaker 3: Farnum and you know, their own OZSI heroes that they
Speaker 3: love and worship.
Speaker 4: So you know that it's getting down to the nitty gritty.
Speaker 3: Now and that elevation of racial abuse, you know, has
Speaker 3: taken up a whole other level. So I think that
Speaker 3: I feel that, you know, we are at a bit
Speaker 3: of a crossroads and it is hard for us. But
Speaker 3: we've never had this conversation before, like proper, proper ways,
Speaker 3: like out there in the community, and I commend you know,
Speaker 3: the people that are out there on the front line
Speaker 3: having those yards you know, through the campaign, whether it's
Speaker 3: yes or whatever it is.
Speaker 4: It's it's quite damaging to a lot of us.
Speaker 3: But I feel that we're only you know, weeks away,
Speaker 3: and I think that you know, getting up the voice.
Speaker 4: It's one more step.
Speaker 3: Closer for us to get to tradees and we've got
Speaker 3: to have that representation, whether it's at the local, state
Speaker 3: or federal level. We know that we have to change
Speaker 3: the status quo. So I think that you know, we
Speaker 3: know what hasn't worked, what will work. We know that
Speaker 3: we have, you know, solutions to our challenges and that
Speaker 3: we're better off with a driver's seat when it comes
Speaker 3: to these things. So you know, Assembly is encouraging you know,
Speaker 3: mob to vote yes and right across the country.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's just holding on tight now.
Speaker 3: Till we get there and to see where we land,
Speaker 3: you know, And no matter what, like I said, we'll
Speaker 3: stick to our path of treaties and truth telling. We've
Speaker 3: made that very clear. But it will assist us in
Speaker 3: getting to our endgame. But you know, we'll stay on
Speaker 3: the path.
Speaker 4: That we're on.
Speaker 1: That's right, That's such a beautiful way of putting it.
Speaker 1: You know, no matter what comes out of this process,
Speaker 1: we'll always have the strength and the love of our
Speaker 1: people with us and absolutely working with us. And that's
Speaker 1: what we've got to hold on tied to.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: We Blackwattll have had heaps of yarns about how mob
Speaker 1: can you know, disconnect when they need to go back
Speaker 1: to their their ways of whatever works for them, if
Speaker 1: it's out on country, having a couple with an elder
Speaker 1: going and seeing an acho, a GP, a counselor whatever.
Speaker 1: You need to sort of manage right now because yet
Speaker 1: it has been such a difficult time and you're right,
Speaker 1: we're so close to the end or the beginning, however
Speaker 1: we frame it. And we really do have to look
Speaker 1: after ourselves because no one is going to look after
Speaker 1: us like we do and our people do. And I
Speaker 1: think it, I don't know. I want to stay really optimistic,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it might become even more intense. So if
Speaker 1: we need to plug out, that's okay for people to
Speaker 1: do as well. Yeah, beautiful. The other thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to say to people who you know, I think this
Speaker 1: not not this. I'm really grateful to have you follows
Speaker 1: on today to talk about the relationship between the voice
Speaker 1: and treaty, because I do feel it has been quite
Speaker 1: a divisive part of the process, but just getting some
Speaker 1: understanding about these things and how they intersect has been
Speaker 1: really important. You know, on the show this year, we've
Speaker 1: spoken to all sides of the coin, and the last
Speaker 1: year we had with Thomas Mayo, he sort of spoke about,
Speaker 1: you know, what should happen after the referendum, after on
Speaker 1: the October the fifteenth, or when the votes are counted,
Speaker 1: and that you know, really all of us mob will
Speaker 1: have an opportunity to design the mechanisms, just like how
Speaker 1: we did here with Victoria, you know, to design what
Speaker 1: the mechanisms of this actual voice should look like. And
Speaker 1: so I'd also sort of thinking about this for some
Speaker 1: of my friends and my community and my staunch elders,
Speaker 1: is that it's okay for you to vote for whatever
Speaker 1: you feel, of course, but you know, we also need
Speaker 1: all voices to make this process have the cultural rigor
Speaker 1: and the like the representation and the level of robustness
Speaker 1: that needs. And so I'm also encouraging people, like it's
Speaker 1: okay to change your mind, like if you said last
Speaker 1: month I'm not doing that. And now you've changed your mind,
Speaker 1: that's okay if you decide you want to go one way,
Speaker 1: and there's going to be other opportunities to opt in
Speaker 1: a part of this conversation. Changing as information changes is
Speaker 1: also okay to We're not it's not just a yes
Speaker 1: or a no. Changing your mind is all right as well.
Speaker 1: I think I just want to loop back just quickly
Speaker 1: on a final question which we discussed on which I think,
Speaker 1: you know, as at Blackworld Or we're really passionate about
Speaker 1: Aboriginal social emotional wellbeing. We work with communities in workshops
Speaker 1: and coaching and mentoring, and it's really about, you know,
Speaker 1: how do we look after ourselves to be able to
Speaker 1: look after the collective because we're no good to anyone
Speaker 1: if we're you know, really run down. And sometimes we've
Speaker 1: got to get in the arena and sometimes we have
Speaker 1: to step out at the arena as well, and how
Speaker 1: do we know that? How do we manage that? When
Speaker 1: do we say yes? When do we say no? All
Speaker 1: of those things, And so I'm curious to sort of
Speaker 1: just ask you personally, you know, taking off your cochair
Speaker 1: hats and you know, I know you're a mommy. You know,
Speaker 1: you've got four kids, it's six kids between years. You know,
Speaker 1: how how do you followers look after yourself through all
Speaker 1: of this? What what do you turn to? What lights
Speaker 1: you up or what are your strengths and supports during
Speaker 1: these times? Because I think there are a lot of
Speaker 1: us out here who might need a bit of a
Speaker 1: reminding too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have a few.
Speaker 3: And obviously for us, the assembly work can be really
Speaker 3: heavy and can really kind of you be taxing on
Speaker 3: your health because it's such a big responsibility, and it's
Speaker 3: a huge responsibility for us, and as I said, we
Speaker 3: often we carry the burden as well for the mob,
Speaker 3: you know, in this process. But for me personally, you know,
Speaker 3: I always remember where I come from and while I'm
Speaker 3: here in the first instance, that's really important to me,
Speaker 3: and that I'm centered in the community where I live
Speaker 3: and work, and when my family I raise them. And
Speaker 3: you know, our mob got a lot of intergenerational trauma
Speaker 3: and we need a lot of healing, and I think
Speaker 3: through treaties and true of telling, we'll be able to
Speaker 3: do some of that and reset relationships and create those
Speaker 3: spaces that we need to have the healing, whether it's
Speaker 3: after the referendum. No matter what happens, we all come together.
Speaker 3: We'll find a way for us to gather. So I
Speaker 3: think that, you know, it's important to prioritize, you know,
Speaker 3: your wellbeing.
Speaker 4: I try to do that, you know, with four kids.
Speaker 3: It's hard because you know, busy, busy mom and you know,
Speaker 3: full time on the assembly.
Speaker 4: But just having really strong boundaries is important to me personally,
Speaker 4: taking that down time and self care. I spend a
Speaker 4: lot of time on my traditional country with my family,
Speaker 4: and that enables me to reset and rejuvenate and it
Speaker 4: really keeps me grounded as well, being around my elders
Speaker 4: and my family and they kind of you know, our mob.
Speaker 3: They keep it real, they keep me and then putting
Speaker 3: put in others before yourself can be hard, and it
Speaker 3: can be a habit that you do that, so it's
Speaker 3: hard to break. Like I've got four kids, so I
Speaker 3: will be the last one to get the haircut. So
Speaker 3: maybe it's like, you know, once every six to twelve months,
Speaker 3: I'll get the hair cut because I've put other people first.
Speaker 3: So I think it's just looking at you know, how
Speaker 3: you have that self care and how you take it seriously,
Speaker 3: because looking after ourselves should be part of just our
Speaker 3: everyday life, and you know it gives us a breather too.
Speaker 3: So I count my blessings and I'm grateful for you know,
Speaker 3: the life that I have and the privileges that we have.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 3: You know, my grandmother was born a camera Gunja, grew
Speaker 3: up on the mission through good times and hard times.
Speaker 3: So I really am grateful for where I am today
Speaker 3: and what they fought for, you know, over generations to
Speaker 3: get us to where we are today. So that's kind
Speaker 3: of yeah, from my personal perspective.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful, thank you for sharing. Yeah, Like, sometimes we
Speaker 1: have these views that we like for our mob going
Speaker 1: back on countries obviously the greatest co therapist and healing
Speaker 1: you know, teacher. But sometimes we have these views that
Speaker 1: we have to like go somewhere or be somewhere, especially
Speaker 1: you know, the the Waduly discourse around health and wellbeing.
Speaker 1: But sometimes yeah, it's just that walk around the block.
Speaker 1: It's laughing around with someone being silly, like just being silly,
Speaker 1: like there's nothing better than Black Valley Loves or putting
Speaker 1: on some gam and show with your family, or yeah,
Speaker 1: that cup of tea or just something really small. So
Speaker 1: that you can just gather yourself hey, and then get
Speaker 1: ready for whatever else you know, the world the colony
Speaker 1: is throwing at you, and yeah, and just being okay
Speaker 1: to say no sometimes yes and no, thanks or delegate.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, that's beautiful and really some beautiful practical
Speaker 1: tips for our mob right now. As you say, we
Speaker 1: are at the kind of crunch time, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: really recommend that we all just lean into those supports
Speaker 1: and those things at work for us. Well that's all
Speaker 1: I had for today. I mean, it's been really lovely
Speaker 1: to connect to you, with you and just sort of
Speaker 1: unpack this notion of treaties, a referendum, how we can
Speaker 1: look after ourselves, the questions and thoughts that are on
Speaker 1: everybody's lips right now. So yeah, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being here today, and thank you for all the
Speaker 1: work you're doing in our communities too. We really appreciate
Speaker 1: you both.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Caroline, we appreciate you too.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening you mob. If you
Speaker 1: are vibing this season of yarning up, then please head
Speaker 1: over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 1: from to show us some love, rate and review. Alternatively,
Speaker 1: you can get in contact and give us some feedback
Speaker 1: by visiting www. Dot Carolinecoal, dot com, dot au