1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now. 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson. 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 3: I'm the founder of Happy Families dot com, dot you 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 3: and the parenting expert on Channel Line's Parental Guidance. School 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 3: is one of those topics that comes up all the 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 3: time in conversations with parents, mainly around kids doing their 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 3: best or, if not doing their best, achieving their potential. 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: Two phrases that kind of great me because you. 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 3: Can never really do your best and what adult do 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 3: you know who's able really achieve their potential. 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 2: Nevertheless, in spite of it all. 13 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 3: We want our children to do well at school, with 14 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: the belief and reasonable belief as well, that by doing 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 3: well at school, they'll establish the habits of mind, the 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 3: habits of character that will help them to do well 17 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 3: throughout the rest of their lives, whether they pursue an 18 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 3: academic journey or not. They know how to persevere, know 19 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: how to do hard things and get stuck in when 20 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: they're going is hard. In spite of our desires for 21 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: our children to do well at school, the reality is 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 3: that some of our kids sit in front of their 23 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 3: laptop or their tablet, or their homework sheet or whatever 24 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 3: it might be, and they have a dummy spit. 25 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: They say, I hate this, I can't do it, this 26 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: is the worst. Why do I have to do this? 27 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: And when there's something that they can't do, they actively 28 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 3: avoid it, They procrastinate, they do everything they can to 29 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 3: get out of it. Today's guest on the Happy Families 30 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 3: Podcast is someone with a few ideas about how we 31 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 3: can help when our children are having these moments. His 32 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 3: name is James Anderson. James is an Australian based international speaker, author, educator. 33 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 3: He was a teacher and a school leader, but for 34 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 3: the last twenty years he's been working with schools to 35 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: make classrooms more thoughtful places and to help parents to 36 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: guide their children as they develop a healthy mindset towards 37 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 3: learning and development. You can find out more about James 38 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 3: Anderson and his work at James Anderson dot com. But 39 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: he joins me for the Happy Families Podcast today to 40 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: talk about how we can unlimit our children. 41 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 4: James, Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you along. 42 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: Thanks Justin, it's great to be here. It's interesting you 43 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: should mention students that dummy s bit don't want to 44 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: do this, And you know those sort of behaviors because 45 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: from their perspective, those behaviors are often perfectly sensible things 46 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: to do because they've built these beliefs around them that 47 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: their effort won't pay off, that trying will just result 48 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: in failure. So when you believe those sort of things, 49 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: not putting the effort in avoiding the challenges just makes sense. 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was that kid. I was literally that kid. 51 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: I scored on the bottom fifteen percent of the state 52 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: when I did Year twelve. But a true story, I 53 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: remember I would sorry, I don't remember. My grandma told 54 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 3: me that she remembers a time where she walked into 55 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 3: the bedroom she was babysitting us because my parents had 56 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: gone on a trip and Nan was the designated long 57 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: term babysitter. She could smell smoke and when she walked 58 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 3: into the bedroom, I had a ill rubbish bin under 59 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: my desk and I had set fire to my homework 60 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 3: because I couldn't do it. That was my way of 61 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 3: avoiding it, saying no, I can't do it, it's too hard. 62 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: Exactly. I've got a similar experience. First week of year seven, 63 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: I had my first ever music lesson like I had 64 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: music classes before, but never with a music teacher in 65 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: a music classroom. And I walked in there, I was 66 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: blown away. It was so exciting. The classroom, unlike every 67 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: other classroom that was set up in Rows, had two 68 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: drum kits set up in the middle of the room 69 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: full kids. Down the side of the room all these bongos, 70 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: and the other one row of tables. All the kids 71 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: had drumsticks. Within five minutes of this lesson starting, the 72 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: kids on the drum kits are going boom boom like this, 73 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: the kids on the bongos going, the kids on the sticks, 74 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: We're getting these rhythms going. It is the coolest lesson 75 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: in the world. I am engaged, I'm focused, Like who 76 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: wants their children to be engaged and focused and working 77 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: hard like that. We went through the whole lesson and 78 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: the teacher at the end of the lesson said, boys, 79 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: it was a boys school. Boys, before you go, I 80 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: just want to see who can do this. Now, listen 81 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: to those words. He was testing us. He didn't say 82 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: it out loud, he said, I want to see who 83 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: can do this. He put up a rhythm on the board. 84 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: You ent tatar tit on your left hand and t 85 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: T tartar. Do you remember all those Tatar t T stuff? 86 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 4: No, no, I don't. 87 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. 88 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: But let's do its long beats and shit, then short beats. 89 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 2: Okay. 90 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: Anyway, he counted us in. He said one, two, three, four, 91 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: and then thirty year seven boys. None of us could 92 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: do it. I went home and I thought, how hard 93 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: can this be? Because remember, I'm engaged, I'm focused, I'm 94 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: wanting to do this work. I went home and I'll 95 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: date myself here. Do you remember flipping out computer paper 96 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: when you were younger? 97 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, with the dots or the holes down the 98 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 3: side and your tear off the edges. 99 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: I remember that. That's the what am. 100 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 1: I flipped out some computer paper on the kitchen bench. 101 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: I drew a line down the MI. I marked out 102 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: the tempo for my left hand. I marked out the 103 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: tempo for my right hand. I walked up and down 104 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: this paper working out what the rhythm was. They had 105 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: to be a pattern involved. Anyway, it took me hours. 106 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Eventually I worked it out and I went back to 107 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: the teacher the next day and I said, hey, was 108 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: this the thing you asked us to do? And I 109 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: did it for him, and his face lit up. He said, James, 110 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: that's amazing, that's incredible, well done. How did you do that? 111 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: And I told him about all my hard work, about 112 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: the concentration, the focus, all the rest of it, and 113 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: he said, ah, so you can't really do it then? 114 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: No. 115 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you see in his world there were people who 116 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: could just do it and other people who had to 117 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: work hard instead. Now you've guessed, you've gone. Of course, 118 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: no one would say that. At my children's school. That 119 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: happens all that time. Not from teachers necessarily, but every 120 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: time you hear a child go, I'm not like Justin. 121 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: Justin is really good, Matts, I'm not like them. Every 122 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: time we say to our child that, you know, I 123 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: wasn't very good at writing at school either, No, wonder 124 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: you're not good at writing. Every time we attribute someone's 125 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: abilities to who they are rather than what they've done, 126 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: we create what I call is this greatness gape. And 127 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: when we do that, we build these self limiting beliefs 128 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: around us. When I went back to that music lesson 129 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: next time, where do you reckon? 130 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: I sat back of the class, not involved. 131 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: That's right. How many times do I volunteer to try something. 132 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: Well, you're not a natural. You've been told. 133 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: Even as you're saying that, I'm thinking you're talking about 134 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: parents and teachers who say this sort of stuff, But 135 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 3: the media promotes us as well. I'm thinking of when 136 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: you're watching sport on TV and the commentators will talk 137 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: about how this person's got a natural gift. They'll talk 138 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: about the history of an Olympian. They jumped in the 139 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: pool and they just knew how to swim a sub 140 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 3: forty five second one hundred meters freestyle sort of thing. 141 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 4: There's no recognition there of of the process that's. 142 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: Right, And that's one of the strategies I talk about 143 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: with parents is to value the backstory. Is whenever we 144 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: see what it looks like effortless ability, it reminds me 145 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: of it takes a lot of effort to make something 146 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: look effortless, and you see someone doing it so easily, 147 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: but the reason they do it easily is all the 148 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: effort put in behind the scenes that you didn't see. Now, 149 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: I was still passionate about music. I love my music, 150 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: but I never once went to a music lesson. I 151 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: never once volunteered to go on the school production any 152 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of those things, and worse, when a music teacher or 153 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: any teacher for that matter, would say, oh, James, you're 154 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: working really hard today. Keep up the hard work, I'd go, 155 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm one of the kids who has to work hard. 156 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: So when you get these self limiting beliefs, when you 157 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: get these ideas that people are just different, someone encourages 158 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: you for effort. And this is what we're being told 159 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: in social media. Encourage kids. Praise effort. Don't praise the product, 160 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: praise the effort. But if you've got those beliefs that 161 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: people are just different and effort makes up for a deficit, 162 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: then the minute someone says great effort, keep up the 163 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: hard work, you hear you must be stupid or you 164 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to work so hard. Doesn't matter what the 165 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: parents trying to say. What the student with the child 166 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: receives is that message that they have to work hard. 167 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: James, when you talk about this, you're singing from the 168 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: same songbook that I sing from. Carol Dweck has made 169 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: her name in the popular culture because of this idea 170 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,599 Speaker 3: of a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And the 171 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: thing that most people latch onto here is when you 172 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: praise kids for effort rather than outcome, you get better results. 173 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: And she's got a few studies that will certainly support 174 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: that approach. But the issue is somebody is still being 175 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 3: praised after the break. Let's talk about what we can 176 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 3: do instead to help our kids actually have a genuine 177 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: motivation to approach things that are hard and that they 178 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 3: can't even do. Get curious, not furious. Be we your 179 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 3: feeder mistakes lead to mastery, high emotions, low intelligence. Have 180 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: you ever heard these or any of the other principles 181 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: I share and thought I need to stick that on 182 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 3: my wall? 183 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: Well now you can. 184 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: The Happy Family team has pulled out the best justicisms 185 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: for a five mini posters, perfect for your home or 186 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: even the classroom, and easy to grab at happy families 187 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: dot com, dot a you. It's the Happy Families Podcast, 188 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: the podcast of the type or parent who just wants 189 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 3: answers now. My guest today on the pod is James Anderson. 190 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: James works in schools and with parents around issues related 191 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: to helping our children to become skillful learners, to move 192 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 3: into what we would typically call today a growth mindset. James, 193 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 3: let's talk about this issue. We've got kids who are 194 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 3: avoiding something because they're going to have to put in 195 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: effort and that's going to make them look dumb. What 196 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: do you normally talk to parents and teachers about in 197 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 3: relation to helping kids to have a desire to try 198 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 3: something hard. 199 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose a couple of things to talk about. First, 200 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned Carol Dwex work, and everything I'm talking about 201 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: is based on Carol Dwex work, but there's some common 202 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: misunderstandings about it. This idea of fixed versus growth is 203 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: something we probably need to discuss because while Carroldweck certainly 204 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: talks about a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, that's 205 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: really useful in understanding the concepts and why it's important, 206 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: but in reality, no one has a fixed mindset and 207 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: no one has a growth mindset. To understand how to 208 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: change mindsets, it's more helpful to think about it as 209 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: a continuum. And one of the pieces of work that 210 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: I've contributed here is to describe mindset as something that 211 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: you don't adopt, you don't install, you don't instill, but 212 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: rather you encourage an increasingly growth orientated mindset. The problem 213 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: has been that a lot of people have said, oh, 214 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: you meant to have a growth mindset. Growth mindset's really important. 215 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: We should have one of those, justin have a growth mindset. 216 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: Your mindset's one of your most fundamental beliefs about yourself, 217 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: and you can't just change it in an instant. It's 218 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: part of what we call your unconscious bias. It's the 219 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: reaction we have when we're not paying attention. When we 220 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: talk about changing mindsets. What we're going to understand is 221 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: it's not something you can just tell people about. What 222 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: we need to do is to expose them to a 223 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: series of experiences over a long period of time and 224 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: slowly nudge, nourish, nurture an increasingly growth orientated mindset to 225 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: move them along that continuum. 226 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: When you say that, it reminds me of my early career. 227 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 3: Before I did what I do now, I was a 228 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: radio announcer, and what I discovered early on was that 229 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 3: if I wanted to get good at radio and end 230 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: up at one of the big capital city stations and 231 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: have all the cool stuff that radio announcers get to do, 232 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: I needed to get good at receiving feedback and I 233 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: hated feedback. James, when my program direct, I would sit 234 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 3: down and say, let's talk about what you just said 235 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: on the radio half an hour ago, I'd cringe. I'd 236 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: want to hide onto the table because I knew that 237 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 3: I'd blown it or I wasn't as good as I 238 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 3: needed to be. What I ended up doing was shifting 239 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 3: my focus entirely so that I actively sought that feedback out. 240 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 3: I would record myself on the radio, send cassette tapes 241 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 3: because I'm dating myself as well. I'd send cassette tapes 242 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 3: all around the country to the program directors at the 243 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: best radio stations in the country and say, Hi, Mike 244 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 3: or high Rod, I want to work at your radio 245 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: station one day. But at the moment, here's where I am. 246 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 3: Could you have listened to my tape and maybe send 247 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: me one or two things that I can do to 248 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: be good enough to work for you one day? And 249 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: then that shifted my mindset. It made me go from oh, no, 250 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 3: I'm scared of the feedback it's going to make me 251 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 3: looking competent to I've got a goal, I've got something 252 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 3: I'm working towards, and these people can help me to 253 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 3: get there. And ultimately I did. 254 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that understanding you just talked about is to 255 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: recognize that the assessment that you're receiving. The feedback that 256 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: you're receiving is about where you are, not who you are. 257 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: It tells you where you're up to. It doesn't judge 258 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: who you are. 259 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: Love that distinction. 260 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: It's a really important one because most of our children, 261 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: almost many of our children, when they're in school getting 262 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: tests and stuff, they think they're being tested because when 263 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: you see the world through a fixed mindset lens, you 264 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: think that learning is about discovering your abilities. You think 265 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: schools one long test to figure out what you're good 266 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: at and what you're not good at. And that's why 267 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: when you discover things you're not good at, like me 268 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: and my music, you go, no point in me trying 269 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: that any further because trying just proves that you're not 270 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: good at it. Go and try and find something else. 271 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: So one of those messages you ask me, how do 272 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: we change those mindsets? There's a whole lot of things 273 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: we can do, and I use an idea called a nudge, 274 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: and a nudge you might be familiar with. It comes 275 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: out of behavioral psychology. It's just a little reminder to 276 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: help us create a growth message where there's a chance 277 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: we might create a fixed message, and so one of 278 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: them is assessment is about where you are, not who 279 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: you are. So when your child comes home with an 280 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: English essay that's not so good, you say, well, this 281 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: is where you're up to at the moment. It doesn't 282 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: tell you you're not very good at English. Some of 283 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: the other ones you mentioned before about being your best 284 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: and reaching your potential and all those sort of things 285 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: really interesting. When you say to a child with a 286 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: low growth mindset, I want you to show you my best, 287 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: show me your best work, they think that's it. Like 288 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: once you've shown your best, there's nowhere to go. And 289 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: so the reminder I'm asking parents to carry with them 290 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: is that whenever you talk about standards or bests or 291 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, is that you attach a timestamp. 292 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: They say this is your best so far, this is 293 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: your standard at the moment. That we constantly reinforce that 294 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: the standard you're at at the moment is a reflection 295 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: of where you are, not who you are. And here's 296 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: a couple of other quick ideas you can go through 297 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: as well. People with a fixed mindset think they're a type. 298 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: And so one of the reminders we can give parents 299 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: is to say, when we group children when we describe 300 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: what they do, describe them by verbs, not by adjectives. 301 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: That we're not math students and leadership students and these 302 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: sorts of people, but rather we're students learning maths. We're 303 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: children that are learning how to be leaders. And when 304 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: Carol Dwek talks a lot about you know, don't praise 305 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: your kids for being smart. Once you're smart, there's nowhere 306 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: to go, but rather make smart something you do. What 307 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: you just did was really clever, rather than justin you're 308 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: very clever. What you did was very clever. And the 309 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: more we make it about the action, the more we 310 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: make it about something you're in control of, and therefore 311 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: you can get better at and can change. And so 312 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: what we're hoping happens is that we want students to 313 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: understand themselves as learn And that's something I think we 314 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: can talk about at another point. 315 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've loved to there's so much for us to 316 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: explore here in our times getting away from us already. 317 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: Just a quick point on that last one, that whole 318 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: idea that we can say to our children, what you did, 319 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 3: We can talk about how they've done rather than who 320 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: they are. I've found it effective, and I certainly encourage 321 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 3: a lot of parents to do this. Rather than even 322 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 3: going that far, I'll say to my kids when they 323 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: walk in and they're waving an essay where they've got 324 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: an A or an A plus or whatever, I'll say, wow, 325 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: you seem really excited. Tell me about it. How did 326 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: you get there? What happened there? So I get them 327 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: to explain what they've done, the process, the experience, and 328 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: how they feel. Then my evaluation becomes completely redundant. It's unnecessary, 329 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 3: of course, what I say. Once they've done all that 330 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: self praise. Anyway, I can say whatever I want because 331 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: they already believe it about themselves. But just removing that 332 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: a valuative component seems to light them up. They win 333 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: the cross country, Wow, how hard did you have to run? 334 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: How'd that feel? And it just changes the tone of 335 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 3: the conversation. Can we continue this conversation a little bit 336 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 3: down the track. I'm sure that you communicate so so well, James, 337 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 3: and there's so much more that people would love to 338 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 3: hear from you. Would you be willing to come back 339 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: to The Happy Family's podcast again? 340 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely delighted justin Well. 341 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: That'd be a thrill. 342 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 4: We'll book something in and have a chat again in 343 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 4: a few weeks. 344 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulant from 345 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 3: Bridge Media. 346 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. 347 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: Tomorrow on the podcast, we're diving into the doctor's desk 348 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: and having some recent research that associates childcare with specific behaviors. 349 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: In some kids. 350 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk to you about that research and 351 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 3: more to come. 352 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: If you'd like more info 353 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 3: About making your family happier, you can visit us at 354 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 3: Happy families dot com dot au.