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Speaker 1: We did indeed learn that Western Australian builder Cloff, the

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Speaker 1: builder task with the job of building the shiplift, has

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Speaker 1: been placed into voluntary administration. Now Deloitte has reportedly been

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Speaker 1: appointed the administrator and is managing Cloff's affairs. Cloff was

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Speaker 1: indeed a joint venture partner with BMD in building the

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Speaker 1: shiplift at East RM. Now joining me on the line

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Speaker 1: right now to tell us a little bit more about.

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Speaker 2: The situation is the Treasurer.

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Speaker 1: She's also the Minister for Infrastructure and Education.

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Speaker 2: Evil Laula. Good morning to your minister.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 1: Now, minister, firstly, what does you know what's going to

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Speaker 1: happen now with the fact that Cloff has gone into administration.

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Speaker 2: What does it mean for the shiplift project?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so absolutely it was disappointing to hear that, you know,

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Speaker 3: Cloff have gone into receivership. They are a long term

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Speaker 3: Australian company. But what it means, I mean it is

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Speaker 3: a joint venture between Cloff and BMD. But what the

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Speaker 3: Department Infrastructure into is doing is they will be working

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Speaker 3: with the administrators. They'll be working through what needs to

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Speaker 3: happen next around this project. But you know, the shiplift

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Speaker 3: will be delivered by the Northern Territory government. As I said,

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Speaker 3: it is disappointing to see that, but it is also

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Speaker 3: the bigger picture. It is an indication of some of

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Speaker 3: the issues that we're seeing in Australia now around the

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Speaker 3: cost of infrastructure going up and then the impact on

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Speaker 3: those businesses. You know, So we're seeing thirty forty percent

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Speaker 3: increases and that's obviously what's happened on Snowy two point zero.

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Speaker 1: So could it mean that BND delivers the projects themselves.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's far too early around any of

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Speaker 3: these things. But as I said, well you know, and

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Speaker 3: I absolutely don't want to commit any of those sorts

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Speaker 3: of things. Those things are being worked through literally over

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Speaker 3: the next few weeks and then the Department Infrastructure and

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Speaker 3: TEA will be working with the administrators as well as

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Speaker 3: so Deloitte's the administrators around this to see what needs

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Speaker 3: to be done. But as I said, Kluff are huge,

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Speaker 3: aren't they, you know, with the projects in WA, projects

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Speaker 3: in the Snowy as well. So yeah, we're on a

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Speaker 3: long list of people I guess that need to work

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Speaker 3: with CLUFF to work out where this all goes well.

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Speaker 1: And when we caught up with the Chamber of Commerce

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Speaker 1: a short time ago, Greg Island had said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I guess the best way to describe.

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Speaker 2: The situation is messy.

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Speaker 1: Is it going to me though, that we've got further

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Speaker 1: delays on the ship left?

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Speaker 3: Well, we hope not. As I said, you know, the

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Speaker 3: design work that's been done, and both BEM Cluff and

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Speaker 3: BMD got paid for that design work phase and they

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Speaker 3: have been Cluff BMD have been progressively paid for design

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Speaker 3: and they're deliverable. So we'll continue to work on that.

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Speaker 3: But you know, just to be clear, though, the terrific

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Speaker 3: government owns, you know, everything that has been paid for

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Speaker 3: at this stage.

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Speaker 2: So how much has already been paid?

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Speaker 3: I probably can't tell you that figure. As I said,

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Speaker 3: I don't actually have it at hand. But also I

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Speaker 3: think most of those things are commercial in confidence around that.

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Speaker 3: But they as I said, I did tell you that,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were both paid a million dollars for

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Speaker 3: that design phase. This is a huge project. It is

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Speaker 3: a big project. There is substantial work that's happened before

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Speaker 3: you know, even the first top sods turned. Really it's

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Speaker 3: all the tendering, all of that work that needs to

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Speaker 3: go into this project.

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Speaker 1: Minister, as I understand that the project was originally costed

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Speaker 1: about two hundred and sixty million dollars.

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Speaker 2: That was back in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: It's now being reported that it's going to cost five

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen million dollars. Is that still going to

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Speaker 1: be deliverable at that cost now given what's going on

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Speaker 1: with class Yeah, as I.

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Speaker 3: Say, that's one of the biggest issues that you know,

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Speaker 3: Australia faces and we face in the territory has been

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Speaker 3: the increases of all infrastructure. So everything is seen between

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Speaker 3: thirty and forty percent, whether you're building a house or

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Speaker 3: building a big project. So yeah, you know, and that

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Speaker 3: was reported in our mid year budget that's has been

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Speaker 3: a cost increase of about one hundred and twelve million dollars,

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Speaker 3: so it is now about five hundred and fifteen. But

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Speaker 3: you know, this is the issue around infrastructure. It is

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Speaker 3: about you know, the projects then will generate millions of

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Speaker 3: dollars for the economy. It is about diversifying our economy.

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Speaker 3: It's some of the things that we really truly need

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Speaker 3: to do. It is long term jobs in that industry

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Speaker 3: for territory and so yes, it is a cost increase,

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Speaker 3: but hopefully there is a large benefit well, and.

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Speaker 1: I know people are going to be listening thinking it's

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Speaker 1: now costed at five hundred and fifteen million dollars in

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Speaker 1: the project. Realistically, you know, we don't even know now

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Speaker 1: who exactly is going to be delivering it. So can

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Speaker 1: we expect that it's going to stay on that target

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Speaker 1: of five hundred and fifteen and is it still going

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Speaker 1: to be viable?

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Speaker 3: Yes, so absolutely we want to make sure that that

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Speaker 3: project continues. We do want to see a shiplift. I

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Speaker 3: think we've all talked about those the benefits of that,

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Speaker 3: you know, having those repairs, that maintenance being to be

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Speaker 3: done in the North of Australia, So we've had all

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Speaker 3: of those conversations. We do also, I think just need

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Speaker 3: to be reminded that they are in administer draation, not receivership.

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Speaker 3: So you know what's happened is you know people have

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Speaker 3: come in early, the accountants have come in early, and

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Speaker 3: they'll work through this so and you know they're a

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Speaker 3: long term Australian company. Nobody wants to see any company

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Speaker 3: go broke. You know, that's a huge impact on any

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Speaker 3: on on their their employees, all of those issues. So

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Speaker 3: let's hope that the Receivership can tighten some of the belts,

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Speaker 3: get to a solution around some of these things, and

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Speaker 3: we'll see this project continue as is.

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Speaker 1: I mean you've pointed to it yourself, though obviously in

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Speaker 1: receivership we're part of a long list of you know,

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Speaker 1: of different projects that this is going to impact. You

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Speaker 1: must can say that it's going to cause some pretty

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Speaker 1: significant delays.

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Speaker 3: Well, as I said, hopefully not. It is a joint

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Speaker 3: venture and so you've got b MD there, so you know,

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Speaker 3: and what's impact then on the ground is you know,

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Speaker 3: they do they have subcontractors that are already in subcontractors

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Speaker 3: that they're calling for tenders. It's all all that work.

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Speaker 3: And as I said, Louise McCormack is the person that's

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Speaker 3: leading that work for the Northern Territory government. She a

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Speaker 3: very very experienced engineer. She'll be making sure that the

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Speaker 3: Territory government isn't putting a you know, a disadvantage position

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Speaker 3: on this project.

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Speaker 1: And you still believe from your perspective as the Treasurer,

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Speaker 1: this project is still going to be worthwhile for the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: Tax payer.

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Speaker 3: Yes. As I said, the long term benefits of this

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Speaker 3: are around diversifying our economy. You know, I mean London

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Speaker 3: Michael Gunny used to say it. We all say this.

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Speaker 3: You can't cut yourself out of debt. You need to

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Speaker 3: actually grow the economy. And we've relied for a long

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Speaker 3: long time in the territory on tourism, on the pastoral industry,

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Speaker 3: on mining. We actually do need to, you know, continue

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Speaker 3: to diversify and that's why we've had these ideas around

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Speaker 3: a ship lift, you know, the be Toloo, you know,

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Speaker 3: the rockets, the amphibious aircraft. We've got to actually be

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Speaker 3: able to increase the population. The biggest thing we can

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Speaker 3: do in the territory is to increase the population to

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Speaker 3: see increases in GST. But then you have people who

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Speaker 3: are spending and you have that private investment. So we

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Speaker 3: do need to continue to push ahead with this project.

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Speaker 1: And Minister, do we have a number of customers who

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Speaker 1: are going to be using that shiplift because I know

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Speaker 1: that there's been a lot of discussion about defense and

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Speaker 1: making sure that we've got different customers locked in so

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Speaker 1: it is viable long term.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So that work has been done and there

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Speaker 3: are people, there are companies, there are as you say,

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Speaker 3: defense that are absolutely committed to the shiplift.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: We have spoken a lot this week about education and

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Speaker 1: there has been quite a few concerns raised around funding

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the teacher's payoffer, as well as

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Speaker 1: discussion about the review into secondary education. But first off,

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Speaker 1: people were pretty concerned in April earlier this year when

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Speaker 1: it was revealed by Sky News that Anti Education the

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Speaker 1: Department had released an eighteen page document for internal consultation

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Speaker 1: on how schools should deal with students struggling with their

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Speaker 1: gender identity. The document, which was produced in July twenty one,

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Speaker 1: included a recommendation that teachers should avoid using gendered language

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Speaker 1: such as boys and girls and ladies and gentlemen because

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Speaker 1: it confirms gender stereotyping and roles and can be alienating

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Speaker 1: for gender questioning and gender diverse children. Schools would have

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Speaker 1: also been encouraged to organize non gendered sporting teams and

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Speaker 1: physical education activities and sports days. Minister, it seems that

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Speaker 1: common sense, though, has prevailed. Why did you decide to

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Speaker 1: scrap these plans?

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Speaker 3: So obviously there was a lot of feedback around was

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Speaker 3: what had been proposed, and it was only a draft

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Speaker 3: that had gone out, as I said, for comment around that.

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Speaker 3: So we've put together a statement of commitment which is

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Speaker 3: around supporting gender diversity and inclusion in our school settings,

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Speaker 3: in our education settings. But what it's all about is

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Speaker 3: just making sure that young people aren't bullied in our schools,

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Speaker 3: that they feel that they belong, that they can actually

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Speaker 3: get a great education, as I said, across every one

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Speaker 3: of our schools. And whether that's you know, whether your

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Speaker 3: race or your you know, your sexuality, whatever the issues

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Speaker 3: are that you may be experiencing bullying about, you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't want to see that in our schools. We

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Speaker 3: want all our young people to feel empowered, to feel

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Speaker 3: belong to make sure our teaching and learning programs are inclusive.

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Speaker 3: Because you know, I often, and probably at least once

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Speaker 3: a week, I get a report from a parent concerned

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Speaker 3: about that their child's being bullied in our schools. And

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Speaker 3: I think bullying has improved. I mean, I think it

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Speaker 3: was quite vicious when we were younger, but I think

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Speaker 3: we do need a lot of work to be done.

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Speaker 3: And we did the work around the phone policy, but

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Speaker 3: we need a lot of work to be done to

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Speaker 3: see people being more inclusive and more accepting in the territory.

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Speaker 2: And absolutely I think most people would agree with that.

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Speaker 1: But surely like the phasing out of boys and girls

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Speaker 1: was a bridge too far, wasn't it.

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Speaker 3: I think, as I said, the feedback was absolutely around that.

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Speaker 3: But it is, you know, we do need to continue

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Speaker 3: to work around respectful relationships. We all know our domestic

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Speaker 3: and family violence, sexual violence figures in the territory of shocking.

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Speaker 3: So what can schools do to improve that? You know,

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Speaker 3: we do need to start in schools around how we

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Speaker 3: manage our anger how you know, you know, as I said,

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Speaker 3: we accept diversity in our schools. All those things are things.

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Speaker 3: And so I saw love the Love Whites program at

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Speaker 3: though in high school last week. So it is, it

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Speaker 3: is a complex topic and it is one that, as

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Speaker 3: I said, gets you know, raises concerns from people. So

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Speaker 3: hopefully this overarching commitment statement, as I said, covers off

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Speaker 3: on some of the concerns that we've been raised.

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Speaker 1: All right, quite a bit to cover off on this morning,

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Speaker 1: and I'm keen to power through some big announcements, some

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Speaker 1: big announcements around education. Now the current funding model set

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Speaker 1: to change independent analysis of the current effective enrollment methodology

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Speaker 1: used to provide funding to schools is.

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Speaker 2: Set for a real shakeup. Why does this need to happen?

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Speaker 3: So, as I said, I've been around education for nearly

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Speaker 3: thirty or forty years and there has been over those years,

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Speaker 3: probably three or four different funding models that we've had

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Speaker 3: of schools, and the model that came in in twenty

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Speaker 3: thirteen which is under the COLP. Obviously there's been considerable

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Speaker 3: angst around it not hitting the mark in our remote schools.

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Speaker 3: That said, funding of schools is really difficult in the

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Speaker 3: territory compared to other states. We have a number, particularly

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Speaker 3: in our remotes, where kids don't go to school every day,

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Speaker 3: and we are very mobile. So for our town schools,

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Speaker 3: kids turn up on the majority we have tenants figures

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Speaker 3: are about ninety percent. You can look online and see

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Speaker 3: all those attendance figures. So those schools get funded on

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Speaker 3: that ninety percent attendance and so those schools have very

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Speaker 3: stable funding. The numbers of kids that attend are relatively

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Speaker 3: stable as well. It's our remote schools where we have issues.

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Speaker 3: So Deloitte have done this report. There were ten recommendations

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Speaker 3: we'll implement all of those two where many straight away,

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Speaker 3: and those are around making sure that there is a

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Speaker 3: minimum flaw funding or funding guarantee for the school. So

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Speaker 3: whether you're a large school or a large remote school

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Speaker 3: or a secondary school, if you are as short of funding,

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Speaker 3: then you know what teachers you can employ. Because originally,

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Speaker 3: and as I said, this is a bit detailed, but

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Speaker 3: originally this funding model was brought in around organizing what

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Speaker 3: teachers schools could have. Then we saw under the CLP

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Speaker 3: the school based funding model where the funding then went

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Speaker 3: to the school. So then you had that next layer

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Speaker 3: where this money went to the school, So then the

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Speaker 3: school was responsible for how many teachers they had, and

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Speaker 3: the schools obviously at times were concerned. Nobody wants to

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Speaker 3: see their school go broke or even though the government

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Speaker 3: bails them out. Nobody wanted to be a principal where

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Speaker 3: they had a difficulty funding their teachers. So that was

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Speaker 3: the next layer. Then that made it really hard. So

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Speaker 3: we're making sure that there is a minimum flow of

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Speaker 3: funding or a minimum guarantee around that. But also particularly

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Speaker 3: for our small schools, so twenty seven percent of our

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Speaker 3: schools in the territory have less than fifty kids, so

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Speaker 3: that's you know, a third of our schools are very small,

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Speaker 3: some of them only have a dozen kids. So how

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Speaker 3: do you actually then make sure that there is continuous

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Speaker 3: funding because if six kids leave a school with you know,

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Speaker 3: forty eight kids, it's a huge impact. If six kids

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Speaker 3: leave dune On High nobody had even noticed properly, you know, yeah, but.

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Speaker 1: For a smaller school obviously a huge impact. So Minister,

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Speaker 1: how soon is this going to come into play, because

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Speaker 1: there are some concerns being raised that it could take years.

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Speaker 3: It will need to take a couple of years anyway,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, obviously budgets have already been done. School's

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Speaker 3: work on a calendar year budget, but there are a

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Speaker 3: couple of other things. So one of the things the

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Speaker 3: Department are also doing is looking at secondary education, particularly

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Speaker 3: in our remotes because again, and say a bit of

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Speaker 3: a history lesson, the pendulum swung one way. So when

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Speaker 3: Paul Henderson was Minister you may remember Education Minister, it

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Speaker 3: was a real push to have all kids being able

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Speaker 3: to do their secondary education in remote so they could

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Speaker 3: do a secondary education at their school. We then saw

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Speaker 3: the pendulum swing with cop where literally there was a

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Speaker 3: huge push for all kids to go to boarding school.

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Speaker 3: So we had both ends and now you know, it's

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Speaker 3: very much come back to the middle where yes, some

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Speaker 3: kids absolutely should go to boarding school, they enjoy that,

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Speaker 3: they do very well. But we also need to be

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Speaker 3: able to make sure that there is secondary provision in

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Speaker 3: our remotes as well.

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Speaker 1: Is that review into secondary schools also going to be

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Speaker 1: looking at how effective or how well that separation of

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Speaker 1: middle school and high school is going.

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Speaker 3: It hasn't been a focus, but in the last week

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Speaker 3: since I announced that, I've had lots of people say

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Speaker 3: that could we have a look at the middle school?

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Speaker 3: So over the Christmas break, it'll give us some time

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Speaker 3: to have a think about that because it hasn't been

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Speaker 3: one that has been your policy position of Northern Territory

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Speaker 3: government to change that. But literally, as I said, since

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Speaker 3: I've put out that media release, I've had quite a

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Speaker 3: few people saying, what about the middle schools in our

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Speaker 3: town schools? There's only there's probably only I think about

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Speaker 3: five or six schools now that us still have that

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Speaker 3: middle school model. So we have Centrailian in Alice Springs,

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Speaker 3: got Dripstone, Sanderson and Darin Middle and literally Darn Middle

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Speaker 3: is a joint campus there, so we don't have a

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Speaker 3: lot of them anymore. It's as things that have evolved.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if people are raising and it's obviously a concern,

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Speaker 1: so is it something that the Northern Territory government will

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Speaker 1: have a look into well?

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Speaker 3: As I said, yeah, I said, I've got the next

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Speaker 3: month or so for us to have conversations with education.

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Speaker 3: As I said, this review wasn't going to have a

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Speaker 3: fig focus on middle years. It was more about particularly

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Speaker 3: around secondary provision in our remotes. But as I said,

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Speaker 3: seeing this conversation keeps coming up, it might be one

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Speaker 3: where we do need to have a look at that.

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Speaker 3: And I'm truly open minded around the middle years as

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Speaker 3: I said, but yeah, the conversations need to be had

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Speaker 3: with possibly the schools, the middle school as well.

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Speaker 2: Minister.

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Speaker 1: We're fast running out of time, but I do want

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Speaker 1: to ask the teachers. Have obviously been given the update

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Speaker 1: and offer. They'll be back next week with the results

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Speaker 1: to that offer. The Chief Minister confirmed on Monday that

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Speaker 1: it is going to cost about seven million dollars next year.

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Speaker 2: The big question.

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Speaker 1: From cogso also from the Education Union, has been is

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Speaker 1: that money going to come from the current school budgets

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Speaker 1: or is it going to be funded through additional funding

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Speaker 1: that the Northern Territory government's going to find.

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Speaker 3: So if that funding will come from the Northern Department

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Speaker 3: of Education. So it is a fact that the money

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Speaker 3: that all goes to schools anyway is Education Department money.

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Speaker 3: It's not it's money that comes from treasury.

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Speaker 2: So current funding or new funding.

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Speaker 3: Well, as I said, it will be. It may be

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Speaker 3: out of Education Department funding or it may be additional

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Speaker 3: funding that has to go through the budget process. So

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Speaker 3: Budget twenty twenty three will work on that. So how

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Speaker 3: do you reckon how should the schools determined one point

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Speaker 3: one billion dollar budgets? Yeah, it probably isn't and they probably.

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Speaker 1: So it is going to be for school So I

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Speaker 1: would imagine like if they're planning for early next year

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Speaker 1: and they're trying to work out exactly how much their

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Speaker 1: budget is, like what you've just spoken about in terms

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Speaker 1: of you know, the funding model that we've currently got,

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Speaker 1: it is going to be a big change for some

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Speaker 1: of those particular schools. So are they going to be

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Speaker 1: finding that money themselves through their current budgets or you know,

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Speaker 1: how's it going to work?

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Speaker 3: No? No, educate. As I said, and Natasha said that

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Speaker 3: as well. Education department will fund will make sure that

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Speaker 3: there is funding for any pay rise. And we do

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Speaker 3: need to see this, We do need to see this through.

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Speaker 3: We haven't actually haven't been this haven't actually been accepted yet,

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Speaker 3: but the Education Department will make sure that there is

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Speaker 3: funding for those positions, for those positions if there is

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Speaker 3: an increase of that three percent.

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Speaker 1: So from next year, if they do agree to that,

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Speaker 1: the education Department's going to have to find that money

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Speaker 1: from the budget that they've already got for next year.

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Speaker 2: So other things will have to be tough.

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Speaker 3: No, As I said, you know, the education budget is

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Speaker 3: financial year budget. The school year is a school year budget,

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Speaker 3: so education will make sure that they're an education often

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Speaker 3: have well, they usually have underspends, so that education will

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Speaker 3: adjust to make sure that that's funded.

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Speaker 2: But then also do you reckon they'll have seven million underspent.

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Speaker 3: Yes, easily and one point two billion dollar budget, but

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Speaker 3: they can also ask for treasurers advance. So the process

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Speaker 3: around that, and this was something that came out through Langoland.

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Speaker 3: We don't actually do change any budgets just for the

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Speaker 3: you know, on a whim, we have to actually go

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Speaker 3: through a budget process, either the mid year budget process

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Speaker 3: or the financial year budget process. So either they asked

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Speaker 3: then for a Treasurer's advance if Education couldn't find the

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Speaker 3: seven million dollars. But it won't even be seven million

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Speaker 3: dollars because it's only half a financial year, and as

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Speaker 3: I said, we haven't even seen it signed, so it'd

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Speaker 3: be three point five million if it was signed off

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Speaker 3: now and pays then went in in January. So two

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Speaker 3: point five million in a one point two billion dollar

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Speaker 3: budget isn't a big deal for education, I can tell you.

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Speaker 3: But again, if it is, they then can ask for

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Speaker 3: a Treasurer's advanced before you know, probably around March April,

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Speaker 3: if they find that they couldn't afford to pay that

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Speaker 3: three point.

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Speaker 1: Five So in terms of obviously plicating yeah, it does,

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Speaker 1: it does sound we do want.

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Speaker 3: To make sure our teachers take up the payoffer, and

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Speaker 3: I can assure schools that you know, we'll make sure

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Speaker 3: that the money is there for our teachers.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess what a lot of people are going

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Speaker 1: to be wondering though, is if this offer has been

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Speaker 1: put on the table, have you gone through that budget

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Speaker 1: process for the pay rights? Like, have you gone through

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Speaker 1: that whole process to make sure that there is a

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Speaker 1: funding there.

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Speaker 3: So literally we're going through the budget process as we speak.

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Speaker 3: So I've met with every Chief executive, I've met with

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Speaker 3: every minister, and we're going through the budget process for

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Speaker 3: our next budget in twenty twenty three. So those processes

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Speaker 3: are going through. But you can see those figures are

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Speaker 3: in the in the mid years, I mean the mid

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Speaker 3: year budget, So I think I as in with that

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Speaker 3: additional forty five million over four years, so it's already

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Speaker 3: in the it's already been accounted for that. If there's

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Speaker 3: a two percent pay rise, that's two hundred and forty

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Speaker 3: five million over four years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a two percent, But then it's gone up

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Speaker 1: further than that obviously with the three on three on

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Speaker 1: three and then we've got all the other you know,

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Speaker 1: all the other sort of frontline workers looking for a

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Speaker 1: pay increase too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So yes, it's a tough job being a treasurer CAG. Yes,

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Speaker 3: we were actually you know, they're the things that have

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Speaker 3: to be worked through around those things. But yeah, the

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Speaker 3: midyear budget, as I said, has identified a cost increase

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Speaker 3: and that's the that was the issue, and this is

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Speaker 3: why the you know, the Northern Territory government worked really

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Speaker 3: hard around a one off payment rather than a compounding

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Speaker 3: payment for teachers because it was going to be a

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Speaker 3: big cost. And those costs mean as I said, you know,

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Speaker 3: two hundred and forty five million over four years is

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Speaker 3: a cost. And there's things then that don't get you know,

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Speaker 3: don't get built or get you have to minister anyway.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately we've run out of time. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: As always, we appreciate you having a chat with us

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Speaker 1: this morning.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you