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Speaker 1: Hi, this is Paul McIntyre, Editor at large at MI three.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the three Audio Edition. I've been a business

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Speaker 1: journalist for well be On's covering the marketing, media, agency

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Speaker 1: and tech sectors, and in this series we try to

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Speaker 1: get under the hood on broader trends and developments that

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Speaker 1: are shifting and shaping industry. Some of them are not

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Speaker 1: always planned for the spotlight. Well, you'll need to strap

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Speaker 1: in for this one.

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Speaker 2: Gary v is on the.

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Speaker 1: Mike sand If you've not heard of him, well you

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Speaker 1: just should look him up.

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Speaker 2: Gary's mouthier than a federal politician.

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Speaker 1: In question time, he pretty much argues that all media

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Speaker 1: outside of a Super Bowl ad is shite and waste,

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Speaker 1: and that most blue chip companies are grossly under investing

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Speaker 1: in social media outside of a monstrous global social following himself,

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Speaker 1: Gary is chair of New York based vayna X, the

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Speaker 1: parent company to his agency group, Veayner Media, in which

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Speaker 1: he is CEO. Now, what's interesting is a hardening line

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Speaker 1: between what we might call classic marketing practice around building

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Speaker 1: brands and creative messaging for long and short term commercial gains,

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Speaker 1: versus the new crew in social in which much of

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Speaker 1: what the classic camp argue is all but ignored that

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Speaker 1: entertaining and equally mouthy Virtual marketing professor Mark ritzon it

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Speaker 1: Can last year presented new analysis from system one and

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Speaker 1: a global data lift from case studies in the Effies Awards,

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Speaker 1: which he said, and I quote, was the most important

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Speaker 1: advertising thinking in ten years. Ritz and besieged brands to

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Speaker 1: stick with creative executions and branding way way longer than

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Speaker 1: the market typically does, like years longer. On the flip

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Speaker 1: there were a bunch of social folks can armed with

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Speaker 1: evidence and their own case studies about cracking the social

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Speaker 1: algorithms with high frequency, fast moving, quickly changing creative by day,

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Speaker 1: hour and even minute. It's a clash that's got me

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Speaker 1: befuddled and one I'm pretty sure which side Gary will

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Speaker 1: land on, but let's find out. Gary ve beinging in

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Speaker 1: from where you are today, Welcome, great to have you

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Speaker 1: on the mics.

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Speaker 3: I'm really humbled to be here, my friend. Happy New

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Speaker 3: Year if we can still say that in late January,

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Speaker 3: and I'm willed to be here, my.

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Speaker 2: Friend, happy everything. So I said, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: rehash too much of what you've been saying for probably

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Speaker 2: a decade, Gary, But in the interest of context for

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Speaker 2: our broader conversation. What's your riff on media versus social

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Speaker 2: and why a super Bowl TV ad is one of

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Speaker 2: your few exceptions.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm pretty simple, you know, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: as I was listening to your setup, you know, my

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Speaker 3: brain's racing, and you know, I I'm aware that you know,

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Speaker 3: for the last sixteen years, I've been incredibly public about

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Speaker 3: the value of social media. And I'm aware that I

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Speaker 3: love the super Bowl ad, which is a classic ad,

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Speaker 3: and I'm aware that in your setup that I that

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Speaker 3: I do struggle with a programmatic banner ad, classic television spots,

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Speaker 3: you know, and things of that nature. Let me break

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Speaker 3: this down because it's a very smart audience that listens

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Speaker 3: to your showy. My basic premise is I've I live

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Speaker 3: a very interesting life professionally in that my first fifteen

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Speaker 3: years were not in fortune five hundred corporate land. They

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Speaker 3: were in nineteen ninety six, seven, eight, nine, two thousand

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Speaker 3: internet startup. They were in early investing and then mo Facebook,

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Speaker 3: you know, Twitter, Tumbler, and then I got very passionate

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Speaker 3: about building an organization that was great at marketing at

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Speaker 3: scale bigger than me. Right, I wanted to build a

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Speaker 3: using a Star Wars term. If I was right, then

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Speaker 3: I was, you know, the Emperor. I was good at

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Speaker 3: this thing. I wanted to build a death start to

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Speaker 3: make it bigger, and I wanted to have teammates and

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Speaker 3: all that. When I got to Madison Avenue in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and nine, and what struck me and for both

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Speaker 3: you know, the classic you know reports that you said

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Speaker 3: where I can and the new reports my brain goes

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Speaker 3: into those reports had agenda behind them right on both sides.

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Speaker 3: What struck me Addison Avenue in two thousand and nine

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Speaker 3: and Fortune five hundred land was that, you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of the reporting was flawed in comparison to what

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Speaker 3: the business was doing or what the business would eventually do.

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Speaker 3: And I was fascinated by that because I got taught

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Speaker 3: marketing by being a street kid doing it for my

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Speaker 3: father's wine store, needing to drive short term sales. But

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Speaker 3: I always knew that one day I would leave, and

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Speaker 3: I wanted to build a real brand around wine library

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Speaker 3: so that my father could trade on it when I

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Speaker 3: was gone, because I had the audacity to think my

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Speaker 3: dad could ruin it after I left.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I was right.

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Speaker 3: I grew to the business from three to sixty five million,

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Speaker 3: and then it collapsed and I had to create wine

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Speaker 3: tech dot com and it built back up. Here's what

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Speaker 3: I can tell you. We have a very large agency.

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Speaker 3: We've been doing it for fifteen years. I have two

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Speaker 3: thousand plus employees globally. I have been in every room.

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Speaker 3: I'm very empathetic to other people's points of view. I'm

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Speaker 3: I'm respectful, even though my energy is Jersey boy competitive.

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Speaker 3: I'm respectful of different people's points of view, different takes.

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Speaker 3: I am simple, my friend, I am overly passionate about

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Speaker 3: what the cost of the execution is against its short

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Speaker 3: term business and long term branding value. That is where

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Speaker 3: I get caught up. I get caught up in any

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Speaker 3: Let me give you an example where you know I

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Speaker 3: can hear the accent. I'm lucky enough to have the

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Speaker 3: great Karen Coleman running our Australian operations. I've been to

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Speaker 3: the great country of Australia twenty times. Because of my

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Speaker 3: wine career and advertising career. I also have a big

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Speaker 3: brand in Australia, so I've done some speaking tours. I

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Speaker 3: can tell you I would buy unlimited television ads in

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Speaker 3: Australia tomorrow, not Super Bowl. You know what my problem is.

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Speaker 3: I want to pay twenty cents on the dollar that

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Speaker 3: the market's charging because I think that's the actual value

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Speaker 3: of the actual reach I'm getting, not the potential reach

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Speaker 3: that GRPs are selling on. And can we answer on

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Speaker 3: this because let me give you another you said, I

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Speaker 3: kind of think I know where Gary will end up

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Speaker 3: on this argument. Let me give you something else. Every

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Speaker 3: brand listening right now can waste ten million dollars on

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Speaker 3: social media in five seconds. The reason I like so

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Speaker 3: is when you do it well, the opportunity of the

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Speaker 3: value is extraordinary, but the ability to do with poorly

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Speaker 3: is extraordinary. If you treat a Facebook execution like a

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Speaker 3: television ad, make one video and spend three million dollars

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Speaker 3: pounding everyone with it, it will be rubbish. My argument is,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to have an academia, a bait or

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Speaker 3: a fake report with agenda debate. I want to talk

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Speaker 3: about real life business and how everything has played out

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Speaker 3: over the last thirty to forty years. And when I

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Speaker 3: was yelling about Google AdWords, which I wasn't doing publicly,

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Speaker 3: I was doing that in the liquor store era to

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Speaker 3: everyone that Google AdWords were great. No one wanted to

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Speaker 3: believe it, but Amazon and eBay believed it and they

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Speaker 3: built huge companies on it.

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Speaker 2: Well, have a different view on AdWords now though you

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Speaker 2: flipped on that one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I loved you know, by the way,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna flip on social media when the time's right

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Speaker 3: to me. This is of the moment, Like in fifteen years,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna shit on social media because the attention is moved.

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Speaker 3: I built my dad's business on Google AdWords because they

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Speaker 3: were incredibly underpriced in two thousand and one, two three

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Speaker 3: and four. Now we were saturated and a lot of

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Speaker 3: things are overpriced, and we give lash touch attribution value

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Speaker 3: to Google a lot of times when they don't deserve it.

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Speaker 3: On the flip side, I'm obsessed with Google Inc. I

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Speaker 3: think YouTube shorts right now is an amazing opportunity because

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Speaker 3: I know it's also feeding the modeling for Gemini's lms.

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Speaker 3: Like you know, my big thing is And this is

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Speaker 3: why I wrote the book. I wrote a book called

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Speaker 3: Day Trading Attention, which talked about this thesis. I will

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Speaker 3: buy radio and print tomorrow if that industry readjusts its

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Speaker 3: pricing to match the reality. And this is the key

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Speaker 3: term actual reach versus potential reach. My argument the industry

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Speaker 3: has accepted or measures in a flawed environment, how much

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Speaker 3: reach is actually being achieved. But it's funny, I find

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Speaker 3: myself agreeing in principles with many of the people that

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Speaker 3: sound like they see the world differently than me. I

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Speaker 3: believe in reach and frequency. I believe in relevance to

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Speaker 3: consideration to purchase. I believe in the executions need to

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Speaker 3: look very different for Fortune five hundred companies than what

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Speaker 3: most of them are doing right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is that you do argue quite strongly

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Speaker 2: that most fortunate five hundred and blue chip companies I'm

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Speaker 2: not spending enough in social.

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Speaker 3: And I'll say it specifically my current and again, I

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Speaker 3: look forward today and I hope you'll have me back

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Speaker 3: in three years where I'll say something different to what

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Speaker 3: I'm about to saying, because you have to move with

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Speaker 3: the reality of the consumer. But today, as we're recording

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Speaker 3: to good day, my friend, I do believe that every

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Speaker 3: Fortune five hundred company is massively not even kind of,

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Speaker 3: at least from my perch, which I get a lot

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Speaker 3: of use on massively underinvesting in social media, creative production

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Speaker 3: at scale to be posted organically on seven or eight

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Speaker 3: of the leading social networks, to then watch that creative

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Speaker 3: inaction in real life, and be prepared to use media

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Speaker 3: dollars to amplify the winners. Yes, I believe that almost

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Speaker 3: every fortune five hundred company is getting outspent by startups

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Speaker 3: and ankle biers in this one arena, because as you know,

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Speaker 3: they're spending plenty of money on social we're spending it

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Speaker 3: on media amplifying bad creative, and they're spending it on

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Speaker 3: creative that is matching luggage to the campaign idea that

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Speaker 3: they ideated in a boardroom. I think that's a different

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Speaker 3: way of attacking it than I would recommend.

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Speaker 2: That is correct, Okay, and so if we think about that,

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Speaker 2: what is the idea right now? If you would have

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Speaker 2: talked to in blue chip and granted that there will

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Speaker 2: be category and Brian differences, but what should they be

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Speaker 2: allocating at a budget level. Let's not get to the

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Speaker 2: creative yet, but at a budget level, what should they

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Speaker 2: be allocating to social that that's sort of ann your bullpark.

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Speaker 3: That's four ninety nine versus a fashion bread. There are nuances, Comma,

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Speaker 3: I think also, there isn't a nuance and what I'm

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Speaker 3: about to say, let me say this first and then

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Speaker 3: I'll answer you even more directly. But I think this

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Speaker 3: actually is the answer. I believe for the last eighty

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Speaker 3: years we've been using good working media dollars to amplify

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Speaker 3: bad creative and I believe that that's the case because

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Speaker 3: I've studied the last fifty years of campaigns, and most fail.

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Speaker 3: We all know that, and I don't think that's to

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Speaker 3: blame anyone. I think we had incredible creatives and strategists

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Speaker 3: in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, two thousands, we

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Speaker 3: did not have the technology to mitigate the risk of opinion. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so here's the era we're in. The way the algorithms

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Speaker 3: work is there is no algorithm. It's just people and

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Speaker 3: how they react to content, and then the content keeps

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Speaker 3: ongoing based on that reality. For the first time ever,

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Speaker 3: we can actually measure relevance and consideration based on views achieved,

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Speaker 3: because that's what the algorithms are actually writing on. They're

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Speaker 3: writing on relevance. Do a lot of people like this

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Speaker 3: at scale? It will get four million views? Do not

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Speaker 3: a lot of people like this. At scale, it will

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Speaker 3: get ten views. This is real life. But there's a

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Speaker 3: great misunderstanding on how these algorithms are written. Again, for

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Speaker 3: all the hardcore marketers that I know who's listening to

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Speaker 3: this show, this should be a real point here. These

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Speaker 3: algorithms are written for consumer relevance. We are all in

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Speaker 3: need of more relevance. Many of the brands listening right

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Speaker 3: now do not have an awareness issue. People have heard

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Speaker 3: of Coca Cola, people have heard of BMW. We have

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Speaker 3: relevance issues. So I believe that every brand should spend

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Speaker 3: as much money as possible on creating as much creative

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Speaker 3: This is not slop. This is not throw against the

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Speaker 3: wall and see what sticks sticks. This is not spray

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Speaker 3: and prey. This is understand the different consumer segmentations. You're

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Speaker 3: trying to target. Make content in social media, creative form

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Speaker 3: for the mediums, and post it and when and if

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Speaker 3: it achieves organic views, then you put working media on it.

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Speaker 3: I believe that every four This is very controversial, but

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Speaker 3: I believe it. I believe that most of the brands

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Speaker 3: that are listening in the Fortune five hundred should consider

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Speaker 3: spending twenty percent of their entire marketing budget social media,

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Speaker 3: creative production. Now, as you know, that's a big number

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Speaker 3: of non working dollars overall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, marketing, marketing media. Right, you're talking marketing budget. Let's

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Speaker 2: see that's marketing temps.

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Speaker 3: And what I'm saying is not of your creative budget,

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Speaker 3: like to your point, like you know this, it's eighty

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Speaker 3: twenty eighty five to fifteen. I'm not saying twenty percent

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Speaker 3: of the twenty percent that you have for creative and

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Speaker 3: production and talent and out of pocket. I'm talking twenty percent.

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Speaker 3: So to put it into terms, because I'm having these

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Speaker 3: meetings and we are changing the direction of a lot

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Speaker 3: of company strategies. Client, I'll just use real life. This

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Speaker 3: happened last week. I won't use the client's name because

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Speaker 3: I can't.

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Speaker 2: But let's go this.

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Speaker 3: Sid consumer beauty. Right. Hey, you know they're spending two

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Speaker 3: million dollars in a year in the way I'm defining it, right,

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Speaker 3: this is creative for social organic, creative, not paid performance,

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Speaker 3: just branding. I'm posting Instagram posts, I'm posting tiktoks, tweets,

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Speaker 3: Facebook's YouTube's just posting, right, maintenance, checking the box like

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Speaker 3: always on. We showed them examples from a QSR client

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Speaker 3: of ours, you know, restaurants at scale.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So.

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Speaker 3: Here's very simply like getting to the punchline. They spent

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Speaker 3: two million last year. They're on the verge. They're on

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Speaker 3: the one yard line. Using a footy term, they are

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Speaker 3: urge of spending forty million dollars. Now, that is a

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Speaker 3: perfect shift, okay, and does not include television production or

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Speaker 3: TV or talent. This is this is this is a

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Speaker 3: is this guy? This is a This was just responded

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Speaker 3: by the people listening of is he serious? Is he joking?

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Speaker 3: Is he bullshitting? But let me tell you why and

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Speaker 3: this will make sense to everybody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna ask you what was the trigger here?

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Speaker 2: Why and what was it coming from?

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Speaker 3: The three hundred twenty million in media they'll spend. Is

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Speaker 3: now going to amplify creative? That is good, not by

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Speaker 3: my opinion, not by a creative director's opinion, not by

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Speaker 3: can Lyon, not by the fees, not by you know,

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Speaker 3: ad age or pr Week or you and prestigious other opinions.

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Speaker 3: It is defined as good because the creative itself achieved

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Speaker 3: views through a relevance framework. When they will spend media

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Speaker 3: dollars against the thirteen thirty nine one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 3: seven winning ads in the course of a year against

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Speaker 3: dot com driving to retail stores. It will show unequivocal

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Speaker 3: evidence that this was good marketing. We've been able to

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Speaker 3: get more and more clients to go down this route

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Speaker 3: and versions of what I just said. The one I

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Speaker 3: just said is extreme. That's a big jump two to forty.

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Speaker 3: But in twenty twenty five, vyn Or has taken a

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Speaker 3: lot of clients from spending five hundred thousand to two

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Speaker 3: million on social creative to five, six, seven and eight.

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Speaker 3: Getting the media tied in to amplify the organic winners,

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Speaker 3: not disc guys the losers. You know this a lot

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Speaker 3: of people's best practices to run media, whether it did

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Speaker 3: well or not organically, so that when you go on

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Speaker 3: their Instagram grid, it looks like everything got a million views.

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Speaker 3: But those weren't earned views, they were paid views. And

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Speaker 3: you just amplified creative that was proven to not be

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Speaker 3: interesting to the consumer. You've thrown your money in the garbage.

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Speaker 3: That's the punchline of this. That's what I think brands

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Speaker 3: should be spent. And now let me tell you the

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Speaker 3: next step. Because we're the creative a You know, we

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Speaker 3: love social, but what are the creative AOAR for many brands?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we're a social first creative AAR. Once you

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Speaker 3: get success in social creative, now all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: that creative either goes on television or it becomes the

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Speaker 3: brief to another campaign that takes the insights from the

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Speaker 3: quant and qual insights from the day to day social ads.

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Speaker 3: And I will say to put a final bow on this.

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Speaker 3: I thought it was brilliant until I got an email

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Speaker 3: from an eighty year old gentleman that worked on Betty

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Speaker 3: Crocker in the US and said, no, you're no genius,

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Speaker 3: whipper snap. I was doing this before you were born,

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Speaker 3: and went on say that when he worked on Betty

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Speaker 3: Crocker in the sixties, they would run a ton of

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Speaker 3: local newspapers nationally and the creative would be different in

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Speaker 3: Saint Louis than Denver, Denver, than a La than Houston,

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Speaker 3: Houston than New York. Right, and whichever market was responding

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Speaker 3: in sales better of the newspaper print that became the

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Speaker 3: creative starting point and brief to the national TV that

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Speaker 3: they were running.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, makes sense. Now, just I want to catch

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Speaker 2: you on. Two things before you because you'll run You're

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Speaker 2: run off crazy when I want I want better catch

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Speaker 2: you Gary. So two things the crux of the reason

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Speaker 2: why you're going for social You talk about relevance and

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Speaker 2: so forth, but it's also an attention and numbers game.

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Speaker 2: You think Social, you know, in terms of attention and

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Speaker 2: relevance outplays all the other legacy media plays. That's the

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Speaker 2: first thing and the second thing. You are a big

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Speaker 2: harsh critic of this media tonnage sort of masking subpart

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Speaker 2: creative in a traditional and historical context in media and advertising. Right,

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Speaker 2: So basically the croata can be shipped, but the movie

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Speaker 2: media can sort of counter that. That's two two king points.

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Speaker 2: I just love you to get you, to get you on.

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Speaker 3: Let me go in the second one first, and you'll

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Speaker 3: remind me what the first one was. Yes, multiple things. Again,

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Speaker 3: I say this with incredible empathy and humility and understanding.

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Speaker 2: We did not have.

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Speaker 3: The this is the number one device in our society.

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Speaker 3: I mean you could you know, for everyone who's listening,

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Speaker 3: I'm holding up an iPhone. The mobile device has an extraordinary,

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Speaker 3: astonishing amount of attention. The we did not have that

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Speaker 3: when we ran television as the primary device of our society,

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Speaker 3: so there was no technology that understood what was actually happening.

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Speaker 3: It's just the way it is. We stumble like I

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Speaker 3: would say, my beloved social media, which again I established earlier,

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Speaker 3: and I'll say it again when the when the attention

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Speaker 3: veers away from social networks on mobile devices, which it

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Speaker 3: will at some point, I will be the first person

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Speaker 3: to make fun of people overspending on social media, including myself,

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Speaker 3: if I'm still doing that. So, yes, I do believe

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Speaker 3: we did not know how to measure creative because you

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Speaker 3: could not focus groups, opinions of historically successful executives and

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Speaker 3: boardrooms were not good enough. These technologies we tried to

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Speaker 3: build the last decade were not good enough. Social is

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Speaker 3: an encompassed in within itself environment where the algorithms are

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Speaker 3: written to reward relevance to the end consumer. It is

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Speaker 3: a cleaner place. And not only do I argue that,

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Speaker 3: but I argue that you can make that mistake within

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Speaker 3: social Let me explain one of the great mistakes in

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Speaker 3: our society right now of marketing is people running paid

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Speaker 3: media against content before they posted organic to force views

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Speaker 3: in social or to spend paid media on creative that

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Speaker 3: did poorly organically to give the perception on the grids

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Speaker 3: and the analytics that it did well. That is what

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Speaker 3: we're doing. In billboards and radio and print and television.

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Speaker 3: We are running media against creative that we do not

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Speaker 3: know if it was good or not. So yes, that

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Speaker 3: is what I'm saying. And then in traditional places, So

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Speaker 3: here's where social media media has an advantage. You know,

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Speaker 3: and I know, and everyone's listening know, social got fortunate.

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Speaker 3: The ad is hard to know it's coming, right, You

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Speaker 3: and I are the same brother, and everybody listening. We

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Speaker 3: just use our finger or our thumb and content is coming.

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Speaker 3: You don't know if you're about to get your favorite

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Speaker 3: piece of content about a nice Sharraz winery that you follow,

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Speaker 3: or a footy match, or if you're going to get

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Speaker 3: an ad from vayner Media or drug a five or

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Speaker 3: Widen trying to push something for their auto or radio

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Speaker 3: or Tell division or Sneakers or popcorn brand. So social

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Speaker 3: inherently has an advantage because the ads are being consumed

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Speaker 3: more in that nanosecond because we as the consumer don't

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Speaker 3: know it's coming in the way that we know it's

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Speaker 3: coming in other mediums, but you still waste it. So yes,

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Speaker 3: that's what I think it is happened. And then finally,

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Speaker 3: as an overlay to our industry, I am stunned by

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Speaker 3: the mmms, mmas and other reporting things that have been

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Speaker 3: accepted in our industry in the face of our business declining.

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Speaker 3: I am in the trenches every day. I am not

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Speaker 3: some fancy banker in France that is just em and

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Speaker 3: aing my weight. I'm in meetings every day about the

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Speaker 3: actual marketing, and the cmos of the world are getting

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Speaker 3: frustrated brother that the reports look good but the business

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Speaker 3: is down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well this is and that goes for digital as

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Speaker 2: well as a lot of metrics in digital, which is

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Speaker 2: really interesting. While we can go there, but I.

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Speaker 3: Want to jump on that because I did say it

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Speaker 3: in that little rant. I believe you can waste unlimited

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Speaker 3: meat dollars and so I watch people listen, here's a

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Speaker 3: good one. Most of our growth in twenty five came

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Speaker 3: from people firing their social media agency going to us,

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Speaker 3: not going from traditional to social. You can be very

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Speaker 3: bad at social. I'm gonna say it again. You treat

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Speaker 3: social like television and make one or two assets. Guess

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Speaker 3: You're like, this is it? Do you like it? And

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Speaker 3: the cemo is like, yeah, I like it? And you

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Speaker 3: post it a Facebook and you run a million bucks

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Speaker 3: on it, You're gonna be Rubbish City, USA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is where you say mid Funnel. Organic creative

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Speaker 2: is your religion.

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Speaker 3: That is the rant I've been on for the last

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Speaker 3: seven to ten minutes. I think it's crazy to not

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Speaker 3: start in marketing today in organic social the algorithm for

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Speaker 3: free is giving you creative testing, which is the been

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Speaker 3: the bane of existence for all of us in marketing.

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Speaker 3: Super Bowl, my beloved super Bowl. I think it's the

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Speaker 3: best ad. Eight million bucks to get one hundred and

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Speaker 3: ten million Americans to watch? Are you kidding me? It's

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Speaker 3: a steal? You know what my problem is if the

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Speaker 3: thirty second bit stinks, you just wasted twenty five million

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Speaker 3: dollars because you not only if you pay eight for

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Speaker 3: the media, you paid a ton for the production. You

417
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 3: know this. They all get suckered into some talent for

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Speaker 3: a couple million bucks. You know this. I'm not there yet,

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Speaker 3: but you know I will tell you that the creative

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Speaker 3: is the variable of success in advertising. The other variable

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Speaker 3: is was its scene? Right? Did someone see it. This

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Speaker 3: is my religion. I have been extremely loud about social

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Speaker 3: because when done right, it's been very misunderstood by Fortune,

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Speaker 3: five hundred, Land, the Liquid Deaths, the Poppies, while these

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Speaker 3: other brands they're starting to wake everyone up. The industry

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Speaker 3: has moved a lot. I mean, brother, you think people

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Speaker 3: think I I'm wrong? Now ten fifteen years ago people

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Speaker 3: thought I had six heads and was an a bluff idiot.

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Speaker 3: At least now they they they think may or kind

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Speaker 3: of I mean. And so the industry is moving for sure.

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Speaker 2: So can I ask you this in social and how

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Speaker 2: you approach it? Is there a longer or slower burn

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Speaker 2: in social content and marketing? Or is it all about

434
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: instant sales, actions and reactions? So can you plot? Can

435
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 2: you build? If you think about brand? And we may

436
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 2: may or may not believe this, but this is the

437
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: classic argument. We'd be brand builds demand in the long

438
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: term as while as drive short term. But in the

439
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 2: long they always talk about, you know, the Brits are

440
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: talking about the long all the time. Long long long

441
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 2: is lost to short. Now the war doing social are

442
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: you thinking about it? Literally? What's going to happen in

443
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: the next ten minutes? Twelve hours twenty four hours a week,

444
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 2: or are you thinking this activity is going to do

445
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: something that we can prove or help influence in a

446
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: purchase decision down the track. Is that thinking part of

447
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: what you do? It's the only way I think, right.

448
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: I think people have misunderstood production value and lack of

449
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: volume as.

450
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: Longevity, right, Okay.

451
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: And I understand why that has happened. It makes sense

452
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: to me, right. I think a lot of humans process

453
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 3: in a certain way where if something's pushing against your

454
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: religion tactically, you think it might be pushing against it overall.

455
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 3: Let me explain, taking a step back. I got taught marketing.

456
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 3: I learned marketing, and I built marketing. And I said

457
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 3: this earlier to drive sales for my dad's wine store,

458
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: but most of all, to make sure it was a

459
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: healthy brand when I left. Let's talk about Probut you

460
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: just brank a swig of water, right. If I do

461
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: something well as an ad on Instagram or YouTube shorts

462
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,479
Speaker 3: that made you change the water that you buy to

463
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 3: try another one. Sometimes longevity and health of business is

464
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: not based on I know, all of us being included.

465
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 3: Marketers get very excited about what we do, but I

466
00:25:54,600 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 3: think long term LTV is also predicated on product. There

467
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: are some products that are strong good that if I

468
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: can just get you to taste my chocolate once, I

469
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 3: might have you forever, regardless of what I do with

470
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 3: my right You know this, Right, I switch to odorant

471
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 3: sometimes on who knows why, not even marketing, sometimes end caps,

472
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 3: sometimes sales, sometimes serendipity, and all of a sudden, I'm

473
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 3: using old spice for next six years when I wasn't before. Right.

474
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 3: So One, in general and advertising land, we need to

475
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 3: be a little less audacious and think it's just our

476
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 3: constant brand building exercises that are leading to the longevity. Two,

477
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 3: I believe sustained relevance is imperative, you know. And we

478
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 3: used to be able to do sustained relevance by doing

479
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 3: the same campaign over just where's the beef? Just do

480
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: it priceless. But if you look at those there was

481
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: also always altercation alterations. Excuse me, some of the great campaigns.

482
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: The Coca Cola Polar Bear wasn't like we ran the

483
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 3: same exact ad. We ran the same thematics, but the

484
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: ad was different every Christmas or every two Christmases. I

485
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 3: just think the world is faster.

486
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: Okay, So let me put this to then if we'll

487
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: all have coming in one a hear from the classics,

488
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 2: and I have the other gods like you and lots

489
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: of others who will counter that. If you think about, okay,

490
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 2: a social can play in the long for the brand,

491
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: then you have the work coming through from various attention

492
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: experts carrying out some field in Australia. There's others globally

493
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: who say, you know, two seconds of attention doesn't line

494
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: well enough for memory structures to be built on the bland.

495
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: And there's this whole divide around that. So's the teaching

496
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: and so, but what do you like it? A lot?

497
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: I agree? I agree fully two seconds I agree, But

498
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 3: again I want to remind people like a lot of

499
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 3: times too. Like let's talk about Vogue magazine in nineteen

500
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: ninety four. You buy a full page add you have

501
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: a great beautiful photo as you and I know, to

502
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 3: sell your product. Right, it's like a great shot, great photographer,

503
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: up and coming, or very famous model new clothes. I'm

504
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 3: on page thirteen on.

505
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: Vogue, right. It's fought hundred prieges in the book.

506
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: I've won the pages of the book as you know,

507
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: and I know and everyone knows. Sometimes it would be

508
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: two seconds. I would just look at it, not interesting

509
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 3: to me. And other times it's so extremely interesting. You

510
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 3: rip the goddamn thing out and it's on your wall

511
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 3: and you'd give it. I fully agree. I have videos.

512
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 3: I mean I look at these analytics constantly. I have

513
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: videos where ninety percent of the consumption was two seconds, right,

514
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: but ten percent which have mass two one hundred thousand

515
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 3: people watched four and a half minutes, right, Like I

516
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: agree with people if all of it was two Now,

517
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 3: I would also say, what are we doing with billboards

518
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: on the highway? Then you can only have two seconds?

519
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 3: And I would say, I would say a billion two

520
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: seconds is not bad, especially if you pay the right price.

521
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: So again, I think and listen, I'll be honest with you.

522
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 3: I find myself much more in the middle. I know

523
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: I am the poster child of the extreme New movement,

524
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 3: but I will tell you that I believe when people

525
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: really pay attention. And by the way, I do not

526
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: have the audacity to think anyone should pay close attention

527
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 3: to the words I'm saying or the actions we're doing.

528
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: Really I don't, but I think when people get a

529
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: little bit deeper. I think I'm very purple on this issue,

530
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: not red or blue. I actually find the traditionalists to

531
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: be more ingrained than I am, for sure, and I

532
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: see a lot of kids or the new era saying

533
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: a lot of gibberish about the new stuff. This is

534
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 3: not binary. But I do believe that the radio transition

535
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 3: to the television. I do think we live in the

536
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 3: mobile device era where the television is secondary. I do

537
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: believe that many social media posts do get two seconds

538
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: in a world where many television commercials get zero seconds.

539
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: My friend, I believe the data is there to see

540
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: if it got two seconds on social but there is

541
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: no data to say a got two seconds of a

542
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: thirty second video in television. And I think that the

543
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: pricing structure is mature in television and does not reflect

544
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 3: the reality of the end consumer attention, because it's an

545
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: incumbent and it's trying to hold on to its revenue.

546
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: And I respect that. I just don't want to waste

547
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 3: my client's money on it.

548
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: There's also the other side, too, Garia, the dynamics of

549
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: professional content production, which you know I mean, and I

550
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: see that like literally, when you've got user generated content

551
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: or people like you and Brian's coming in on social

552
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: that are funding content for marketing purposes. It's a great

553
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: bar locking the cost for whether it be a meta

554
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: or whatever. To do what they do without the cost

555
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: of content is fabulous if they're focusing on technology and

556
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: the content that works services. But it's cheap. It's cheaper

557
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: to produce content. So there's an interesting thing there with

558
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: rights and that gets to a broader view on what's

559
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: going to happen. What happened?

560
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: You're right, And by the way, we're talking to the

561
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 3: CEO and founder and operator of an agency that is

562
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: making thirty forty fifty thousand dollars productions for one single

563
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: organic social piece. I mean, yeah, so listen, but you

564
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: also understand also a founder and CEO who's not going

565
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 3: to shit on someone making a thirteen second, ten dollars

566
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: piece of creative that might be able. I don't understand

567
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 3: the audacity of looking down on something if an end

568
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 3: consumer finds value in it. I'll give you an example.

569
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: Do you know when the canvas was invented that the

570
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: big talk in the world was if you make art

571
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 3: on a canvas, it's not real art because it's not

572
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 3: on a building.

573
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: Right, No, Ho did that have it?

574
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: Well? I think for me, I've used history very effectively

575
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: because I'm a very big history guy to understand what

576
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 3: we're working through. There will be a day you're gonna

577
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 3: like this. There's gonna be a day when the classic

578
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: people are gonna be the social media creative people. You know,

579
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: television had to fight and crawl for its respect in

580
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties against the radio guys YEA and

581
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: so and print. So I understand the moment we're in.

582
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: I don't want to be the blanket guy. I'm aware

583
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: that I will say a quote in a keynote or

584
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: an interview that gets clipped out and that's the headline.

585
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: My answers are much more nuanced. I think every brand

586
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: on earth let me let this be very clear, I think,

587
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: and you can clip it if this works for you

588
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 3: a classic agency. I believe every brand on Earth can

589
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 3: waste all of its money on social media if it's

590
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: not done properly. I definitely believe that about Classic. On

591
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: the contrary, when done perfectly whatever God deems perfectly social classic, digital, print, radio, television, sports, sponsorship,

592
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: when everything is done perfectly I do believe that social

593
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: media currently, at this moment, is the best use of that.

594
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: If it theoretically we did five million dollars on TV, only,

595
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: five million on outdoor, five million on print, five million

596
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: on direct mail, radio, podcasting, sports sponsorship, I do if

597
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 3: we did five million perfectly on all those mediums, If

598
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: we did five million perfectly on creative and media and social,

599
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: I do believe you will get both the short term

600
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 3: business results and the long term branding results from social

601
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: more today because I believe the attention is underpriced and

602
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: achievable in a different manner than the other mediums, but

603
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: it requires a deep understanding of the creative I said

604
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 3: it earlier on a nuance and I saw you. It

605
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: took note of you. And I love when clients get

606
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 3: under the hood with what we do because you can

607
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: imagine this. We're very hot right now because social has

608
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 3: become a bigger conversation. I have the credibility of fifteen years.

609
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: We have the forget about me. Most people either think

610
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: I'm great or a blowhard. It's actually the word of

611
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: mouth of clients of ours that have been with us

612
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: for five, ten, fifteen years that actually lead to our

613
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: growth and They are always blown away by the nuances

614
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: of this conversation and our meetings, including something like they

615
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: think we're just doing low fidelity work and spray and pray,

616
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 3: and we're like, you should do an eighty thousand dollars

617
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: video for an Instagram post and if it doesn't do well,

618
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 3: not spend media on it. They're like, what are you

619
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 3: talking that? That is like, But they were stunned by

620
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: the eighty thousand. They were stunned by the no media amplification.

621
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 3: So this is a you know, trying to go deep

622
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: here because I'm trying to bring you value and I

623
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 3: respect the audience thing. This is much deeper and nuanced.

624
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 3: But I am not going to be ever ideological or

625
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 3: romantic about yesterday. It will not be who I am.

626
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 3: I don't believe in it, and I will. I actually

627
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 3: look forward to the day when most of my videos

628
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 3: are making fun of this medium and rasing it and

629
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: talking about ARVR or something I can't imagine, because it

630
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 3: will then prove my point of what I've been trying

631
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: to make the last fifteen years, which is I'm not

632
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: emotional about social I'm emotional underpriced and overpriced attention. I'm

633
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 3: emotional about understanding if the creative works and creating a

634
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: process that takes advantage of the world we actually live in,

635
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: not being ideological about yesterday.

636
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: Well I'm doing so do ball this year?

637
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 3: A gay it's a funny Times question. We're doing one

638
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 3: for Raisin brand from Kellogg's. But I got an emergency

639
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 3: call literally two hours ago, and I have a meeting

640
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 3: in forty four minutes and we might have a second

641
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: So listen. I love super Bowl, but it scares the

642
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 3: crap out of me. Mate, Promise you I does. I

643
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 3: know the media is right, but I'm always scared. My

644
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: point of view to my clients is do super Bowl

645
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: at the end of doing a year's worth of social

646
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 3: creative and take that and make that the super Bowl ad.

647
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,479
Speaker 3: Whether believe it or not, I will say it here now.

648
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 3: I believe that we're within the half decade. In the

649
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: next five years, I know, I believe that someone is

650
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 3: going to be and I'll use this word smart enough

651
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: to use a video they posted on a social network

652
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 3: as their actual Super Bowl spot, black lines and all.

653
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 3: And I know, and I say this with so much empathy.

654
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: I know that ruffles feathers. I know that people get

655
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: upset about that. I know people talk about craft and

656
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 3: the art and all that, but I believe it is

657
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 3: a good business decision because it has been proven if

658
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: it got one hundred million organic views, that it is

659
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: wildly interesting to people. And I am petrified of the

660
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: eight million dollars I'm spending, even though I know it's

661
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: the best deal for media. I'm petrified of all the

662
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 3: other dollars associated with the guests.

663
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: A Colling, that guy. You could say that on on council.

664
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: I've heard you say it, but I'd imagine you might have.

665
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: But I hear a lot of people say, do not

666
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: repurpose a TV ad to social vice versa. And but

667
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: this is what you're saying, might happen in the reverse

668
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: your verse engineering the creeks.

669
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm saying that the creative testing mechanism that is

670
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: currently organic views achieved organically through the algorithms because they

671
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 3: are in the interest media era, not the social media era,

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 3: and it is written on relevance, which is the precursor

673
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: to consideration. I do think there is a hearty debate,

674
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: and I can tell you for us, we have clients

675
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: that have taken social now to regular television with success. Again,

676
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 3: I show them in black and white that we should

677
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: have kept it in social media because the media is

678
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 3: underpriced to television. But when you throw that much media

679
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: weight against television again, I don't think a television commercial

680
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: is worth zero. I just think it's overpriced to the

681
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: attention I'm paying for it. They're seeing very interesting results.

682
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 3: And look, we're going into a whole new era. And

683
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: you know this because you're a man of this. The

684
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: walls are caving in on all these debates. Right, you

685
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: can't just you know, you can't be just doing classic

686
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: and poorly. You can't be doing social and poorly. Whatever

687
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: your belief is. Pr I mean, I'll give you one

688
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with. I'll give you one. I'm obsessed with experiential, right,

689
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: I mean you want to talk analog, I'm I think

690
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: more brands should do much more experiential, much more sampling

691
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 3: and trial of their products, shopper marketing. I think the

692
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: world getting into a let's stop being emotional about digital

693
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 3: or social or traditional or TV or outdoor or Facebook,

694
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 3: and let's get to the crux of media and creative

695
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: being held accountable to driving our business. And yes, I

696
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: think there is a real conversation. I believe in it

697
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 3: the most. I mean, look at me. I have produced

698
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: creative consistently in social I am not on television. I

699
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: don't have a weekly column in the Wall Street Journal.

700
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 3: And I'm very aware that my brand is very solidified

701
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: and very understood and very well known. I've done that

702
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 3: for a decade, and I believe in this. I believe

703
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 3: in a million pebbles over the course of a decade

704
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: will create brand and people will know what your brands

705
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 3: did were. I believe brands need to be more relevant

706
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 3: to more consumer segmentations. By the way, I think one

707
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: of the things that television does is makes us a

708
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: little too vanilla. So I think a lot of the

709
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: brands in the world right now are struggling with relevance

710
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 3: because they've chosen a lane when they have the breath

711
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 3: to choose many. But I think all of us traditionalist, classics,

712
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 3: new wave social first, the brands need results because the

713
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 3: biggest brands in the world are losing market share collectively

714
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 3: and the pressure's mounting, and we all have help and

715
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: short term business results matter and long term branding really matters.

716
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: But one of them, brother is extremely measurable and the

717
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 3: other one is a healthy debate.

718
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 2: Well, what are you preferred on that? What are you

719
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: a preferred set of metrics? Garry? And when I talk

720
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 2: about that, that's sort of in a post campaign. So

721
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: once you've launched something, yeah, what are your best what

722
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: are your favorite set of metrics? And then most importantly,

723
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: how do you correctly attribute? And the context to that

724
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: is that even now we talk about television. Even now

725
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: there's some stuff coming out and the data seems pretty

726
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 2: strong on it that you know, you see television driving

727
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: or search traffic when a campaign or piece of content's

728
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 2: on right, but Google gets the attribution for it because

729
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: there's no nothing before. It's the last clique thing you

730
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 2: talk about it. So how do you how do you

731
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: evolve that or how do you what are you doing?

732
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: Attribution in soul both it at a campaign level for

733
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: relevance you talk about, but also styles, how do you

734
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: prove that it's actually that is done?

735
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: Sales is easy when you put media and creative together

736
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: and hold it accountable against sales. You can either do

737
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: to dot com, which is black and white. You can

738
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: get lucky and have a QSR or a or a

739
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: financial service like if the client owns the website or

740
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: they own the locations. It's easy. So my QSR clients

741
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 3: and my performance clients banking e commerce, we crush because

742
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: on sales they could just see it when you're a

743
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 3: CpG or FFIG like, that's hard, right, They're trying to

744
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: figure out. But what we do is when we run

745
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 3: the media against the creative, we do holdout clustering and

746
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 3: we show these fifty stores did this where we've spent media,

747
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 3: these fifty didn't. The relevance is measured by views achieved

748
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 3: in social so very easy for us on relevance. The

749
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 3: only one that we don't have and we will not

750
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 3: bullshit our clients and say we have it, is we

751
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 3: will not do long term branding exercises because we believe

752
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 3: all of it is fake.

753
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: Long term binding is fight and unpack that.

754
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 3: For me, I want to be very respectful, but I

755
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: want to own our truth. I am very respectful of

756
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: the academic scientific work that is trying to figure out

757
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,479
Speaker 3: if this behavior on television or social or digital will

758
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: impact your brand five ten years from now. We respectfully

759
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: say that's incredibly impossible, very difficult, and a real challenge,

760
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: and there's too much credence being put in it. I

761
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: believe common sense and respecting your cmos and your marketers

762
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 3: and letting them cook is equally a good idea. And

763
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: in the short term relevance is incredibly easy to measure.

764
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 3: Organic views achieved. The scale that social is today is

765
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: profound bigger attention than any other medium television, print, radio combined.

766
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 3: It's just the way it is. The phone had won

767
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: this battle of distribution and sales is very easy. I

768
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 3: think one of the biggest mistakes that has happened in

769
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 3: marketing is creative and media have been separated up. When

770
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 3: we're being held accountable to sales, we want the creative

771
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: and the media brief and then we will hold it

772
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 3: directly accountable to sales. We believe that's the ecosystem to

773
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 3: be fair.

774
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: That's on the market is as much as the supply

775
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: side too, though, garage that's on the marketing side as

776
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: much as the supply side. That separation because even now

777
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: I talked to in your market, there's a lot of

778
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: a lot of your clients, a lot of big brands

779
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: that don't want to keep those two things separate. It's

780
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: just not the agency supply side driving that client side

781
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: comfortable with it as well, so attention so dorg studying

782
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: moving on at a time of report last year has

783
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 2: strong eight hours tory per walk down. Last year for

784
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: the first time, TV eight hours a week eight hols

785
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: are walked down for the first time last year they

786
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: can rodio seven hours down, social media six out six

787
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: point two down, gaming down, podcasts and audio up and

788
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 2: using mags ironically up. But in terms of this attention

789
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: that you talk about with social is it time spent

790
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 2: as an hours spent on the medium, or you're talking

791
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: about advertising attention, what are you talking about when you

792
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: find it both?

793
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 3: With all due respect to the incredible Deloitte, I do

794
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 3: not know how any normal human being I will take

795
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: in screaming as a debate. I am not God. I

796
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 3: don't have the data, but the data is I just

797
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: cannot comprehend. And really I mean this, and this is

798
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: one of my big I'm just gonna say, and I'm

799
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 3: curious on your vibe on this. I think one of

800
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 3: the great issues in our industry is common sense has

801
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 3: left the building. Anyone that thinks print is within striking

802
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: distance of social media consumption needs to have really, really.

803
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 2: Almost one thought. One thought of it. It's a song

804
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: that it's open, it's consumption, but it's all wayless.

805
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 3: Listen depending on how they define radio, right, because if

806
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 3: you throw podcasting into it, respect it sounds like they

807
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 3: separated in the report with gaming. Again, these are the question.

808
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 3: I mean television compared to screaming and social classic television.

809
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 3: You mean cable and network. I mean these are silly conversations,

810
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: including all the hours that are watched in sports. So

811
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 3: that's number one, number two to your point, and it's

812
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 3: a great point. Streaming. As we know, advertising is very sparse.

813
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: Right if you think about every medium you just talked about, socials,

814
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 3: ad product is so integrated into the core experience that

815
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: as an ad I say this all the time. Get there, Like, Gary,

816
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 3: but what about live sports? I'm like, no, no, not

817
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 3: live sports, live sports commercials versus social media commercials. Right,

818
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 3: So there is an there is a second layer there.

819
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 3: But I'm even debating it overall, respectful.

820
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: I'm just now really realized I got one momentute, So

821
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: let me get this one of you. Get to you

822
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: the edible question, Gary, iil's impact on creative socials and business. Now,

823
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: you will argue that the blockshain is going to be

824
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 2: in the sire. Can we cram something out on the

825
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: perspective on that in a couple of minutes before you

826
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: have to go to your next client win.

827
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 3: I hope it's a client went. I believe the block

828
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 3: has a chance to help us because we're all concerned

829
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: about Look if none of us, like I believe this

830
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 3: is true what I'm about to say in four years,

831
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 3: two years, three years, somewhere in this range, all of us,

832
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: me and you, brother and everybody else, We're not gonna

833
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: believe a single video on the Internet, not one. I

834
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 3: think that has incredibly big social ramifications. Video proof has

835
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: been the judge and jury of our society for one

836
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 3: hundred years, and I think it's been a healthy one.

837
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 3: So I'm concerned about that as a citizen. The blockchain,

838
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: what it does better than anything is it proves providence

839
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 3: and it proves ownership, and it's a ledger. I don't

840
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: have it all figured out in my head, other than

841
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 3: I do believe there's a scenario where a lot of

842
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: videos are going to be minted on the blockchain to

843
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 3: prove providence. So when I am the Internet, see a

844
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 3: podcast with me and you and it is on your

845
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 3: blockchain address. I'm like, oh, that is real, and so

846
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 3: I'm hopeful that the blockchain can really really be the

847
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 3: hero of something we're all concerned about. Number two, while

848
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 3: we're on it, AI is going to save millions of

849
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 3: people's lives as it starts to go into the world

850
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 3: of medicine. Many people who are scared about what it's

851
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 3: going to do to the art of our television commercials

852
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: or our social media commercials will be happy to hear

853
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 3: that it's saving your grandma's life for another ten years.

854
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 3: Is far more valuable than our beloved advertising And so

855
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 3: I think AI is going to be a net positive

856
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: with many shortcomings like every other big invention, but it

857
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 3: will be net positive, and I hope people go with

858
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 3: a little more practical optimism on this issue versus being

859
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 3: selfish and worrying about if it's going to take money

860
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 3: out of our pockets as an advertising industry.

861
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what's it going to do with business though?

862
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: And we're all the time, but that some altman basically

863
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: it up in a lot of course, the story of

864
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: last year a lot with these comments about most agency

865
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: functions and marketing won't be needed. That means you at

866
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: this moment, do you lost people and what happens to

867
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: your business? Gary and throw yours time with a Joe Dixon. Ally,

868
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 2: I think.

869
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: It's sane people more output. I believe that. I think

870
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: you're gonna be competing with people that have yeah, because

871
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 3: I think we're gonna be com I think people are

872
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 3: missing a very important point, which is, Okay, so hey

873
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 3: Coca Cola, Yay, we can have half the people and

874
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 3: they're gonna be armed with AI and they're gonna make

875
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff. Well what if Pepsi's like, well,

876
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: we're gonna keep the same people and arm them with AI.

877
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: What Coke's just gonna be like, all right, Pepsi, you

878
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: can have three times, you could have two times, you

879
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 3: can have four times more ads out there than us.

880
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 3: I think there's some naive ta number two Live Shop,

881
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: Live Shopping. We know it's a big one for me

882
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 3: that we as a production company producing podcasts just like

883
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 3: this beautiful one. We're in that business experiential. Veiner's going

884
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 3: deep into that. All those numbers down. I'm a buyer.

885
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: I think we're going into a barbell extreme technology and

886
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 3: the need for extreme analog I'm very into experiential. I'm

887
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 3: very into old school stuff. I think outdoor, in the

888
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: physical world, ar glasses are coming. There's all sorts of

889
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 3: things happening. Here's what I would say, don't bet against humans,

890
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 3: even in the face of AI.

891
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 2: Here you are optimistic on that, I'll give you that.

892
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 2: I've heard you say that before, and I go, I

893
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: need to hear you there often because I'm the opposite.

894
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 2: You've got to go. I won I think that the womb.

895
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: That's a talent and the quality of talent and what

896
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: needs to happen to twenty something. So you talk about

897
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: binary and black and Whittin's fimlines, we didn't get there.

898
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: I'd love to get you another time on that. But

899
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 2: the final promise, I'll promise you the final question on

900
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: this is in war world. It looks like in five

901
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 2: years time there will be five global platforms taking seventy

902
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 2: to eighty percent of a trillion dollar ad market. Rule

903
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: most of the world's brands end up being platform pawns.

904
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 3: That's a great question. I would argue that from nineteen

905
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 3: fifty to nineteen ninety, that's what advertising was. You had

906
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: three channels in Australia, and two newspapers and brands were

907
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: the pawns of five platforms. So I would say maybe,

908
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 3: and I don't give a shit, but I have a

909
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 3: funny feeling no, because I think a lot more technology

910
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: is coming, and there's a lot more to go, and

911
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 3: glasses are coming, and they're going to unseat the phone.

912
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: And so the answer is, I'm not sure it's possible.

913
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 3: But guess what, I know exactly how that played out

914
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: for forty years, and I know exactly what to do.

915
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: Dary Nanstvoll, thank you for the time you go to

916
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: gun and be a superstar, great chatting.

917
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: Thanks for your time, cheers me, Thank you for a time,

918
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 3: wishing your help.

919
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: This three audio edition was presented by Paul McIntyre, producer

920
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: Alisa Partington.

921
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 2: Music by Matt Dwyer.

922
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: For more episodes, download the iHeart app and search three

923
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: audio edition, or the same for any of the major

924
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: podcast networks.