WEBVTT - Qantas' record-breaking fine 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.640 Already and this is this is the Daily This is 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:15.600 the Daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.520 and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, the nineteenth 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:20.320 of August. I'm Emma Gillespie. 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:21.320 I'm Tamkovlaski. 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.760 A landmark federal court decision has hit Quantas with Australia's 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.040 largest workplace penalty in corporate history. The airline has been 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:33.559 ordered to pay ninety million dollars for illegally sacking more 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.600 than eighteen hundred workers during the pandemic. Money that comes 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.200 on top of a one hundred and twenty million dollar 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.400 compensation deal that the airline has already agreed to. It's 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.600 been nearly five years since we first began hearing about 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.640 this case, and there have been plenty of twists and 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.360 turns in the years since. So today we are going 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:55.400 to take you through everything you need to know about 0:00:55.400 --> 0:01:02.880 this case. But first a quick message from our sponsor, So. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.080 M this is being described as the largest case of 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.600 illegal sackings in Australian history. That is not something you 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.959 say on the podcast every day, yep, So why don't 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.240 you take us right back? This is a COVID story. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.720 So let's go back to that time where did this 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:17.199 all start. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.640 Yeah, you might remember a series of I suppose Quantus 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.000 would maybe frame them as bad pr headlines coming out 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.399 about the airline in that COVID era, And this one 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.880 is really at the core of that big media storm 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:33.199 of the COVID era. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:35.440 So we're talking right the beginning of the pandemic, like 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:36.400 twenty twenty. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.200 Yep, so COVID nineteen. We're right in the thick of it, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.759 and airlines are losing money rapidly, So borders are closed, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.360 flights are canceled. Every airline is doing it tough, and 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.120 Quantus in particular claims that it is bleeding cash. They 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.120 were the words that the carrier used at the time. Now, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.040 in November twenty twenty, Quantus made a decision to outsource 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.240 more than eighteen hundred staff, So we're talking baggage handlers, cleaners, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.200 ground crew, all the people who keep the planes and 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.760 the airport's running for Quantus. Now, the company at the 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.720 time said that this was a cost saving measure, that 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.200 it was trying to survive the pandemic, and that by 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.800 outsourcing these jobs to contractors, it could save about one 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:20.200 hundred million dollars per year. 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.359 And so how do we get from a cost saving 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.240 measure during the height of the pandemic to a court case. 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.560 So this is where it gets quite interesting and where 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.760 we start to hear from the Transport Workers' Union. Now, 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.400 this is a major union that represents a lot of 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.040 the staff that were involved in the sackings, and the 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.800 union argued that this wasn't just about money. They actually 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.920 claimed that Quantus deliberately timed these sackings to prevent the 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.120 workers from exercising their industrial rights, so that included their 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.639 right to collectively bargain for better wages and conditions, as 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.320 well as go on strike to demand better wages. The 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:02.000 TWU argued that Quantus deliberate and illegally sacked the workers 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.320 at a time when they couldn't take any of that 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.160 kind of action interesting, and so it launched legal action 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.360 in the federal court in twenty twenty. Now, in July 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.679 twenty twenty one, Justice Michael Lee, who was the same 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.959 judge that handed down this week's penalty, he found that 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.880 Quantus had indeed acted illegally, siding with the TWU. 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.040 A big finding. What were Justice Lee's reasons for getting there? 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.320 So he ruled that while Quantus may have had legitimate 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:33.200 commercial reasons for outsourcing these staff, a substantial reason for 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.640 the decision was to curb the union's bargaining power or 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:42.840 to curb staff's ability to exercise their industrial action. Under 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.400 Australian workplace law, you actually can't sack workers to prevent 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.240 them from exercising those rights, from doing things like striking, 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:54.200 and Justice Lee found that Quantus basically couldn't prove that 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.040 it wasn't motivated by that factor, so it couldn't prove 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.840 that it was purely motivated by law full or financial 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:05.800 reasons rather than ones prohibited by the Fair Work Act. Essentially, 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.040 the burden of proof was on Quantus to show that 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.200 they weren't trying to weaken the union, and Justice Lea 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.320 ruled that they couldn't. 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.320 Do that, and so that decision was handed down in 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.239 twenty twenty one. We're now here in the second half 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.680 of twenty twenty five, we're still talking about it. What 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.799 happened next in the last let's say, almost four years 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:25.320 since then. 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:29.320 Yeah, you're absolutely right. Quantus appealed that first decision in 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.280 the federal court. They actually ended up taking this fight 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.320 all the way up the court system. So first they 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.520 appealed to what is known as the Full Federal Court. 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:44.440 In twenty twenty two, three judges unanimously there upheld the 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.360 original ruling against the airline, and then Quantus took its 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.560 appeal to the High Court. So this is Australia's highest 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.680 legal authority, the final place of appeal, and in twenty 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.760 twenty three, the High Court unanimously dismissed Quantus's appeal. That's 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:05.520 three separate courts, seven different judges, all finding that Quantus 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.000 did act illegally by sacking these workers. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.680 And so it went all the way up the court ladder. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.839 It was rejected at every stage, and then it almost 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:18.039 got sent back down for this sentencing decision or kind 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.560 of a financial penalty being handed down, which is why 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:25.000 we're talking about it today. So then that's the focus. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.719 What was the process in working out exactly how much 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.200 Quantus needed to pay to remedy this mistake. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.320 So there were essentially two separate issues that Quantus and 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.520 the union have been working in the courts to resolve 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.359 since that point. First, there's this issue of compensation for 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.440 the workers who lost their jobs. Then separately, there are 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.000 the penalties against Quantus for breaking the law. So a 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:53.120 twofold issue here. In October last year, Justice Lee in 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:58.160 the Federal Court ordered compensation for the eighteen hundred affected workers, 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.320 and the court found that Quantus should compensate them not 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:05.120 just for economic losses like lost wages, but also for 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.800 non economic losses, including what the court called hurt and suffering. Now, 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.680 before landing on a figure, how do you determine, you know, 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.839 the value of what these eighteen hundred workers should be awarded, 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:17.880 There was a bit of a test case in the 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.279 Federal court now that involved three of the impacted workers. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.280 These were three Quantus staffers aged in their fifties. Two 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.440 of them had worked for the company for twenty years, 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.800 and we heard firsthand from them about what the sacking 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:34.960 had done to them mentally, physically, the emotional fallout, relationship fallouts, 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.240 the whole kind of gamut of negative experiences were on 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:42.839 display from those three representatives. Justice Lee awarded those ex 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.040 Quantus workers a total of one hundred and seventy thousand dollars, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.320 and that became a sort of blueprint for broader compensation 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.080 to figure out a scheme that would include all eighteen 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:55.520 hundred and twenty workers. 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.160 So they had those test cases, they came up with 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:00.720 a bit of a figure. There has that now been 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.360 resolved and is every worker going to receive a check 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.680 for the damage and the lost wages? Yeah? 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.359 In short, yes, So in December, based on that case 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.560 with the three workers, Quantus agreed to pay one hundred 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.960 and twenty million dollars in total into a compensation fund 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:20.080 for all affected former employees. But that still left us 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.800 with this question of penalties. So, yep, you're going to 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.960 compensate the workers that you were found to have illegally sacked. 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.120 But what is the price that you should pay for 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.240 making that mistake, for breaking the law in that way? 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.480 And that's why we're talking about it today. So in 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.920 that two part equation you were talking about earlier of 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.120 compensating the employees and then the penalties were now at 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.080 that penalty's bit. Yep, what did Justice Lee rule? 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:46.360 So Justice Lee ordered Quantas to pay ninety million dollars 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:50.000 in penalties, and as we've explained, that is on top 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.840 of the compensation payment that it's required to pay. 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.440 So we're now over two hundred million dollars exactly. 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.480 The TWU was seeking the maximum penalty, which would have 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.080 been one hundred twenty one million dollars. Quantus had argued 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.280 for a mid range penalty, of course, something between the 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.200 forty and eighty million dollar mark, so we were loosely 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.360 expecting a pretty high figure. But Justice Lee said that 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.760 he wanted to come up with a number that was 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.920 going to essentially deter other major corporations from behaving similarly, 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.520 you know, setting a bit of an example here, and 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.840 he was pretty scathing about the conduct of the airline. 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.000 He said that quote, to deprive someone of work illegally 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.160 is to deprive someone of an aspect of their human dignity. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.320 And this is not assuaged simply by expressions of regret. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.320 It's pretty strong language from the judge there. Tell me 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.440 about how he characterized Quantus's behavior, because the focus of 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.560 this penalty bit is really about assessing their role in 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:53.320 this process, and obviously it's worth ninety million dollars in penalties. Yeah, 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.439 how did you describe Quantus as a kind of corporate citizen? 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.800 It was really interesting and just as Michael Lee is, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.400 as you can imagine, a very articulate judge. He was 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:08.120 particularly critical of how Quantus handled the case. Immediately after 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.920 the outsourcing came to light. He criticized them of a 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.320 lack of transparency, of kind of a dishonesty with the 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.680 community about what was going on, and the judge also 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:23.400 noted that while the airline did eventually apologize publicly that 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.840 it had attempted to deny compensation payments to affected workers 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.480 and that it had been quote the wrong kind of sorry. 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.560 So Lee suggested that the remorse shown by quantus quote 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.720 more likely reflects the damage this case has done, rather 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.440 than unique remorse for the damage done to the affected workers. 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.760 Let's get a quick response from the TWU. How have 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:47.559 they responded to the penalty? 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.880 So the union has said that they're not necessarily happy 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.720 about this penalty, but that they do welcome it as 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.440 vindication for workers. Their argument all along has been, you know, 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.880 we never should have been here having these conversations and 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.440 the damage has been done. But National Secretary for the 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.960 union Michael Kin described the penalty as a ninety million 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.400 dollar message to corporate Australia that workers will stand up 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.000 for what's right. The union has consistently argued throughout this 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.400 case that the human cost was enormous. The impact on 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:22.400 the workers who suffered financially you know, family breakdown's mental 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:26.319 illness as a result of suddenly losing employment, especially during 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.520 the early scary stages of the pandemic. Cain also touched 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.440 on the fact that the Transport Workers Union brought this 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:38.080 case and took on a company with quote almost limitless resources, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.440 knowing it was a long shot. Now, I thought it 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.320 was interesting that Justice Lee actually acknowledged what the TWU 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:48.000 did here, saying that the TWU quote has alone borne 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:52.199 the burden of prosecuting this litigation. Now, with that in mind, 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.040 he's actually ordered fifty million of the ninety million dollars 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.959 that Quantas must pay to be paid to the union's 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.000 so some of that penalty will go towards the union's 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:03.800 legal cost. 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.319 And have we heard from the airline in all of this? 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.000 So Quantus has accepted the federal court decision. There's a 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.840 statement from the airline this week that said the judgment 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.600 holds them accountable for their actions which caused real harm 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.440 to employees. We've heard from the group's CEO, Vanessa Hudson, 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.760 who said the airline apologizes to each and every one 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.040 of the sacked workers and their families, and she added 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.839 that quote over the past eighteen months. We worked hard 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.480 to change the way we operate to rebuild trust with 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.280 our people and our customers. This remains our highest priority 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.000 as we work to earn back the trust we lost. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.520 And so what happens now, I mean, where do we 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.559 go from here? And I'm interested, particularly if any of 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.800 the money has actually been paid out yet. 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.600 Yes, so the airline Quantus has noted that it has 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.160 paid out that one hundred and twenty million dollars, but 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.199 that has gone to a fund that's being managed by 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:01.120 the Morris Blackburn lawyers, the law firm representing all the workers. Now, 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.880 the law firm is still working to send those individual 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.920 payments out. It started issuing payments in April this year. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.160 But it is a really lengthy process and the compensation 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.199 amounts for the workers actually vary, so they're ranging from 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.800 between thirty thousand to one hundred thousand dollars based on 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:23.720 individual circumstances. So the scale of those payments in accordance 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.440 with the court's orders against the individual circumstances. You can 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.080 understand why it might continue to be a lengthy one. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.280 But the money is in the bank for all intents 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.600 and purposes from Quantus, and it will pay the penalty 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:40.040 from this week in accordance with court orders. According to Quantus. 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.800 A really significant employment case that comes to an end 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.079 after many, many years and many tiers of the court system. Emma, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.240 thank you so much for that. Thank you, and thanks 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.400 so much for joining us on the Daily Ods this morning. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.120 If you enjoyed what you listens to, we'd love you 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:54.959 to share with a friend or leave a comment. You 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.160 can listening on Spotify, Apple or watching us on YouTube. 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.719 We'll be back in the afternoon with your head. Until then, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:07.360 have a wonderful day. My name is Lily Maddon and 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.160 I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkudin woman from Gadighl Country. 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.120 The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.680 the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.040 all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.000 our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:24.959 past and present.