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Speaker 1: You have a child who, after a couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: of school being back, is saying, don't want to do

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Speaker 1: it anymore. I don't like it. I've got no friends,

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Speaker 1: I hate school, no one's nice to me. Doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: I want to stay home. School anxiety, school refusal or

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Speaker 1: emotion based school avoidance. So many families are struggling with it.

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Speaker 1: The numbers are rising, as they have been for the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years. Today on the Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: what to Do when your Child doesn't want to go

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Speaker 1: to school. Hello and welcome. We're so glad to have you.

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Speaker 1: Along with the Happy Families podcast Real Parenting Solutions every

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, we are Justin

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Speaker 1: and Kylie Colson and every Tuesday on the pod we

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Speaker 1: answer your tricky questions. They don't come much trickier than

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Speaker 1: this one. If you'd like to submit a tricky question,

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Speaker 1: we've got a super simple system at Happyfamilies dot com

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Speaker 1: dot Au. Just scroll down to podcasts, click the record button,

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Speaker 1: start talking. A couple of people recently have said that

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Speaker 1: they haven't had success with that. You can send us

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Speaker 1: a voice memo, or you do is open up the

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Speaker 1: voice record app on your phone, talk to that and

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Speaker 1: then send it to podcasts with an s podcasts at

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Speaker 1: Happyfamilies dot com dot au Kylie. Here's today's message.

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Speaker 2: I'm using AI as I'd like to remain anonymous and

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Speaker 2: not have my voice on the podcast. Our eleven years

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Speaker 2: old is so anxious about going to school as she

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Speaker 2: has no friends. She's cried so many times the last

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Speaker 2: two weeks over having to attend school and is flat

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Speaker 2: out refusing to go. She doesn't do any extra curricular activities,

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Speaker 2: hate sports. We've tried multiple things, and she doesn't last

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Speaker 2: past a few lessons if she doesn't find someone she

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Speaker 2: meshes with, or if she doesn't like the coach or teacher.

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Speaker 2: We also don't have the spare funds at the moment,

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Speaker 2: even if she wanted to do anything. We aren't religious,

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Speaker 2: so any sort of youth grind is out too. Her

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Speaker 2: social anxiety is through the roof. She refuses to do

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Speaker 2: any new activities, so this makes it hard to introduce

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Speaker 2: her to new things. I'm just at such a loss

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Speaker 2: as to how to help her, short of intensive therapy,

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Speaker 2: which again we can't afford. Anyway in which I feel

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Speaker 2: we can help her involve spending stupid amounts of money.

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Speaker 2: How do you get your child help when funds are

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Speaker 2: minimal or none.

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Speaker 3: This is so tricky for parents across the country, across

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Speaker 3: the world. We struggle seeing our kids challenged, and we

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Speaker 3: struggle seeing them in a hard place, so hard, and

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Speaker 3: the friendship challenges that our children experience especially tug at

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Speaker 3: the heart strings because I think all of us, at

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Speaker 3: some point in our lives have experienced that feeling of loneliness,

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Speaker 3: that feeling of being isolated or excluded, and we don't

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Speaker 3: want our kids to experience that.

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Speaker 1: Data shows that loneliness is increased, and you know who's

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Speaker 1: most affected by it, our youngest people. Like it's the

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Speaker 1: most hyper connect hyper connected time in the history of

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Speaker 1: the world, and yet so many kids are feeling so

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Speaker 1: so lonely. We've been there, We've experienced the whole school refusal,

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Speaker 1: school avoidance, emotion based school avoidance is the technical term

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Speaker 1: for it. It's so hard. There's another element to this

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Speaker 1: in addition to the heartbreak, and that is having a

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Speaker 1: lack of resources and thinking, if we had some more money,

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Speaker 1: maybe we could try this, Maybe we could take them there,

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Speaker 1: maybe we could have this assessment done, maybe we could.

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Speaker 1: And because of the cost of living challenges that so

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Speaker 1: many people, almost everybody struggling with right now, it just

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Speaker 1: adds another layer of complexity and a layer of feeling helpless,

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Speaker 1: feeling like you're out of control. So for our anonymous

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Speaker 1: listener who has sent this through, we feel your pain.

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Speaker 1: We have some suggestions and some ideas that could be helpful. Kylie,

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Speaker 1: I've got a couple of things. I know you've got

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Speaker 1: a couple of things. Why don't you kick it off first,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll add some ideas around that.

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Speaker 3: I think the harsh reality for all of us, whether

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Speaker 3: we are eleven, twenty two or in our fifties, friends

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Speaker 3: don't usually land in our lap. No, they actually require

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Speaker 3: a whole heap of intention and time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we should highlight here we don't know what

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Speaker 1: has happened in this family, Like there might be a

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Speaker 1: lot of time, effort, and intention going into building friendships

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Speaker 1: and it's just not working. We don't know, but they

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Speaker 1: do take work. You can't just have a friendship land

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Speaker 1: in your lap.

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Speaker 3: And research which support that it takes more than two

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Speaker 3: hundred hours of intentional time. It's not we're hanging out

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Speaker 3: in class together, or we're in a group with fifteen

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Speaker 3: other kids. It's two hundred hours of personal interaction with

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Speaker 3: somebody before you would consider them a close friend.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you've taken my job as the doctor.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about the science. The research that you're referring

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Speaker 1: to is something that you and I have talked about

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Speaker 1: a number of time. Tis because adult friendships are tricky

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Speaker 1: as well. And there was a there's a university professor

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Speaker 1: at the University of Kansas. His name's Jeffrey Hall, and

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Speaker 1: he published a report a couple of years ago now

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Speaker 1: that showed that it takes roughly fifty hours of time

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Speaker 1: together to move from being a mere acquaintance to a

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Speaker 1: casual friend. Fifty hours to say, oh, yeah, we're friends.

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Speaker 1: But it takes to go from that basic friend status

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Speaker 1: to being a genuine close friend, Like you said, two

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Speaker 1: hundred hours. And that's not two hundred hours of sitting

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Speaker 1: next to summoning class. That's two hundred hours of intentional

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Speaker 1: activity and side by side time time face to face,

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Speaker 1: side by side, going camping, or you're spending time on

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Speaker 1: the weekend having a picnic or playing in the park

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Speaker 1: or whatever, Like it's genuine time together, building your relationship,

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Speaker 1: not just being near each other.

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Speaker 3: So when you look at the friendships that are flourishing

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Speaker 3: in the school playground, I would suggest nine times out

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Speaker 3: of ten, those friendships exist outside of the playground as well.

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Speaker 3: They're being fostered by families who are coming together on

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Speaker 3: the weekends after school for play dates, and they're actually

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Speaker 3: spending intentional time together outside of the flurry and activity

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Speaker 3: of the school, classroom and playground. So I know that

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Speaker 3: it sounds like this all lands in mum's lap. It

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Speaker 3: kind of does. That's the sucky thing about this. It

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Speaker 3: actually does.

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Speaker 1: Especially if you're a child who's really struggling to make

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Speaker 1: it work without that parental invention. It's just too hard.

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Speaker 1: You've got to get kids into your backyard or into

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Speaker 1: your living room or at the park down the street

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Speaker 1: with some parents supervising and being around while the kids play.

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Speaker 3: But the amazing part of this acknowledgment is it doesn't

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Speaker 3: cost a cent. It doesn't cost a cent to be

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Speaker 3: intentional about making opportunities for your children to have experiences

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Speaker 3: with other kids.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's get really concrete about it. What specific things

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Speaker 1: can parents do in that situation You've done this a

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Speaker 1: lot more than me. What have you done?

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Speaker 3: So I would suggest that your child has a handful

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Speaker 3: of kids that they would love to be friends with.

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Speaker 1: They usually do, and that they may have some level

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Speaker 1: of acquaintance, but.

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Speaker 3: If they can't give you any clarity talking to the

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Speaker 3: classroom teacher about the children that she spends time with

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Speaker 3: in the classroom or the children that they feel she's

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Speaker 3: more suited towards. Because sometimes we're inclined to want to

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Speaker 3: go to the popular kids because they're larger than life

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Speaker 3: and that's where we see the party at. But the

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Speaker 3: reality is they're they're not our people. We don't fit

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Speaker 3: into that space. But there are other kids over here

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Speaker 3: that we've missed because there's so much flurry over here.

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Speaker 1: I want to put an exclamation mark on what you've

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Speaker 1: just said there. We do need to get to the break.

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Speaker 1: But this is so important. Having watched our six daughters

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Speaker 1: go through various iterations of school over the last twenty

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Speaker 1: years or thereabouts, there are so many kids who sit

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Speaker 1: in class and who are at a practical level. They

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Speaker 1: are almost invisible because they're not the popular kids, and

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Speaker 1: they're also not the unpopular kids. They're just kids. Who

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Speaker 1: are in class, who people almost don't notice. They're everywhere,

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Speaker 1: there are so many of them. This little girl may

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Speaker 1: be one of those kids. Finding another one or two

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Speaker 1: kids like that could be the answer, because they don't

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Speaker 1: need heaps of friends, no, just one.

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Speaker 3: And so once you've got an idea of the children

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Speaker 3: that your child would be best suited with, then the

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Speaker 3: next step is reaching out to the parents. So it

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Speaker 3: may be just as easy as sending a little note

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Speaker 3: off to the teacher with some invites for a couple

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Speaker 3: of friends and inviting them over for afternoon tea.

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Speaker 1: Or do what we've done and say here's our email adress,

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Speaker 1: here's our phone number. Can you just give this out

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Speaker 1: to all the parents, because there's obviously privacy laws and

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Speaker 1: we can't ask for theirs and you're literally just include

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Speaker 1: a note and say, I've got a girl in the

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Speaker 1: class who really would like to be friends with your kids.

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Speaker 1: We thought we might do a little play date. Would

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Speaker 1: you be up for it? If your child would be

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Speaker 1: happy to do it, can we please play?

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Speaker 3: And one of the other things that I really love doing,

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Speaker 3: especially in the holidays, creating a little craft day or

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Speaker 3: something the kids really enjoyed having a handful of friends

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Speaker 3: over and doing some kind of structured activity because for

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Speaker 3: new kids coming together, they actually need some structure around

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Speaker 3: their friendship.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be the whole time, but if

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Speaker 1: they get together and do an hour of craft and

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Speaker 1: then they have another hour of playtime, it ticks every box.

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Speaker 3: So we've done lots of different things over the years.

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Speaker 3: We've had little cooking classes where the kids have been

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Speaker 3: able to bake some cookies and then decorate them once

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Speaker 3: they've called down, which gives them time in between to

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Speaker 3: have some play date. We've done painting days. We've just

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Speaker 3: had a pool, you know, hangout and they've played a

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Speaker 3: whole heap of games in the pool. And we've also

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Speaker 3: done Easter days or you know things like that where

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Speaker 3: you can actually kind of theme it.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, calendar date or something like that. The break

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Speaker 1: a handful of other ideas that my work. If those

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Speaker 1: things aren't quite resonating for you on the Happy Families podcast, Okay, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: my response to this is a little bit different to yours.

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Speaker 1: You've taken the approach let's see if we can build friendships.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we've tried before, but if we go with these angles,

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Speaker 1: we might be able to get some kids over or

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Speaker 1: spend some time at the local park, but we can

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Speaker 1: get the kids face to face, side by side, doing activities,

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Speaker 1: building the relationship, maybe something could work. My approach is

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Speaker 1: slightly different. The first thing that I'm going to suggest

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Speaker 1: is to the degree that you can, recognizing that funds

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Speaker 1: are limited, I think that it's worth going in getting

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Speaker 1: things checked out medically. When a child is struggling that much,

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Speaker 1: it's worth just checking is there anything going on with

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Speaker 1: neurodivergent challenges? Is there anything happening from a psychological point

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Speaker 1: of view that we're not aware of. Getting in to

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Speaker 1: see the GP and just exploring that initially can give

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Speaker 1: you some direction. The second thing that I want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize is just how important this thing called school belonging

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Speaker 1: is and working with the school on it. What do

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Speaker 1: I mean by this, Well, there are two relationships that

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Speaker 1: really matter at school. The first one, and I've talked

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Speaker 1: about this in the podcast quite a lot as school

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Speaker 1: has commenced this year, but I'm going to emphasize it

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Speaker 1: again real quick. The first one is there one kid

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Speaker 1: at school who when your child enters the school gates

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Speaker 1: sees them and says, hey, come sit with us. That's

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Speaker 1: what it means to belong and working with the teacher

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Speaker 1: with that specific goal in mind, or the school guidance

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Speaker 1: counselor or the school chaplain, whatever that welfare person is,

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Speaker 1: that wellbeing person is in the school working with them

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Speaker 1: to identify one child who is open to taking on

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Speaker 1: the responsibility and finding the joy in seeing your child

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Speaker 1: and saying, hey, come sit with us. Children who have

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Speaker 1: that are happy to be at school. They look forward

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Speaker 1: to being at school because they know that they're being noticed,

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Speaker 1: they know that they belong. But they also one other

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Speaker 1: thing in terms of relationship, and that is an adult

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Speaker 1: who notices them, who calls them by name, and who

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Speaker 1: was able to have a quick chat with them about

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Speaker 1: something that's going on in their life. It might be

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Speaker 1: something in the classroom. It could be the cross country

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Speaker 1: the other day, how'd you go? It might be Hey,

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Speaker 1: I heard that this thing's happening, and I know you're

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Speaker 1: interested in it. Are you're going to try out for?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter so long as there's an adult,

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Speaker 1: usually the school teacher, who says, hey, Kylie, it's so

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Speaker 1: good to see ye. Hey, what happened the other day

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Speaker 1: with that audition you were trying out for, or how

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Speaker 1: did you go the other day at the swimming carnival.

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Speaker 1: I know that was something that you were really really

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Speaker 1: hoping to do well in. I didn't get to see

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Speaker 1: your races. That interaction with an adult combined with a

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Speaker 1: child who says, hey, come sit with us. What a

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Speaker 1: difference that makes. So I'd be working with the school

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Speaker 1: directly and asking what can we do to support my

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Speaker 1: child to build these two relationships. The last thing I'm

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Speaker 1: going to mention is the importance of third spaces. So

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Speaker 1: you've got home, you've got school, and this is where

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Speaker 1: that whole question money comes in. We've tried extra correct activities,

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Speaker 1: but she won't do them, and we've tried extra correct activities.

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Speaker 1: I can't even say the word anymore, but we don't

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Speaker 1: have any money anymore. In our experience, our children, when

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Speaker 1: they do extracurricular activities, they don't tend to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I've got friends and I want to spend more like

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Speaker 1: two hundred hours with them. They just do that activity

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Speaker 1: and that's often all there is. So finding a third space,

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Speaker 1: which is usually going to be the neighborhood or maybe

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Speaker 1: the park down the road, or if you live near

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Speaker 1: the beach, it could be that finding a place where

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Speaker 1: the kids can hang out with other kids and enjoy

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Speaker 1: each other the third space is so valuable.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned a couple of weeks ago about a guy

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Speaker 3: that you had been listening to in your feed who

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Speaker 3: suggested that when his kids came home from school, he

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Speaker 3: wasn't concerned about whether or not they spent time with

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Speaker 3: other peers. He actually wanted to foster relationships with other adults,

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Speaker 3: people that they could glean from and learn from. They

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Speaker 3: could have mature conversations with models. Yeah, and so in

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Speaker 3: this situation, maybe there's a grandparent, maybe there's an auntie

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Speaker 3: that maybe there's a friend down the road who has

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Speaker 3: a little bit of extra time on their hands that

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Speaker 3: they could spend with your daughter as well. I know

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Speaker 3: that sometimes that seems a little bit left field, But

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Speaker 3: for me growing up, the people that I loved spending

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Speaker 3: time with most were the people who lit up when

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Speaker 3: they saw me walk into the room.

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Speaker 1: Because you had some friends, but not heaps of friends.

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Speaker 1: But you used to spend a whole lot of time

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Speaker 1: with Donna, who lived two doors down, and you spend

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of time with Jill, who was the

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Speaker 1: mum of one of your friends, and they were really

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Speaker 1: your best friends, right, that's who you look forward to

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Speaker 1: hanging out with after school.

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Speaker 3: And because like I said, they lit up when when

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Speaker 3: our kids were a little bit younger, they had a

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Speaker 3: piano teacher, Carol, And as soon as she walked into

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Speaker 3: the room, no matter what we were doing, her whole

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Speaker 3: face like she's her whole face Sean into my house

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Speaker 3: and she just elevated us because we felt like we

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Speaker 3: were literally the most important people in her world in

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Speaker 3: that moment.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of a lot of content, a lot

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Speaker 1: of answers that we've given here, building friendships, bringing adults

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Speaker 1: in as friends, creating space as third spaces for kids

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Speaker 1: to develop those relationships, checking out additional needs, looking at school, belonging,

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Speaker 1: and the one that we haven't mentioned, it's just more

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Speaker 1: time with family so valuable because that's the relationship that

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Speaker 1: matters more than any other. It is a tricky question.

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Speaker 1: We definitely can't be comprehensive in the time that we've gotten.

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Speaker 1: We will have to wrap it up there because we've

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Speaker 1: gone well over time. But we hope that that's been

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Speaker 1: a useful suggestion for people who are struggling with school

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Speaker 1: refusal around relationship issues. If you'd like to submit a

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Speaker 1: tricky question, please send us a voice memo to podcasts

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Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot au or visit us

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Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot A you to submit

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Speaker 1: your questions there. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and more resources

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Speaker 1: are available at happy families dot com dot au