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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: As we heard last week, amendments protecting the rights of

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal landowners were passed through Parliament. The amendment, which acknowledges

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Speaker 2: the rights of traditional owners to territory coasts, leaves the

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Speaker 2: industry uncertain when it comes to access across the Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory's waters. Now, we spoke to the CEO of the

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Speaker 2: Seafood Council last week, who raised concerns for industry, saying

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Speaker 2: the changes were made without genuine consultation with industry and

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Speaker 2: those who access the waters. Now joining me on the

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Speaker 2: line is our fants, David chi Rovolo. Good morning to you, David.

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Speaker 1: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 2: Now, David, people are going to be listening wondering is

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Speaker 2: this the same situation as the Blue Mud Bay decision

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Speaker 2: or is it something else? Firstly, can you talk us

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Speaker 2: through you know what waters this relates to.

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Speaker 3: Right, So, I think the first thing here is that

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Speaker 3: there are no new rights, effectively that have been afforded

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Speaker 3: here in this instance. Although it may open the door

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Speaker 3: to further recognition of waters beyond inter title zones or

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Speaker 3: water currently overlying Aboriginal land. But presently what the amendments

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Speaker 3: have done is makes some changes.

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Speaker 1: To the Fisheries Act. The government has said that that's.

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Speaker 3: To bring it into line with the Aboriginal Land Rights

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Speaker 3: Act and the decision of the High Court and the

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Speaker 3: bloom mart Bay decision. But of course it is very

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Speaker 3: important to people to understand that those laws are the

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Speaker 3: highest law in the country and those laws have already

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Speaker 3: been in place. So it's certainly not the case that

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Speaker 3: this change alone has conferred new rights.

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Speaker 1: The big significant well.

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Speaker 3: The rights that we are clear about. What the problem

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Speaker 3: is is there are parts of this that are unclear

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Speaker 3: due to the consultation process. And the other thing that's

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Speaker 3: really concerning is that these changes of the Act came

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Speaker 3: about at an agreement between the Northern Land Council and

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Speaker 3: the Northern Territory Government. They've said that it's Tranche one

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Speaker 3: of a much broader suite of change, and the consultation

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Speaker 3: process was very lacking.

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Speaker 1: We are very worried.

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Speaker 3: That if a full review occurs under the same conditions

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Speaker 3: that we won't know what the future fisheries management is

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Speaker 3: going to look like anymore. And there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: uncertainty for commercial and recreational fishing.

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Speaker 2: So David talk us through exactly what's unclear at this

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Speaker 2: point in time from a recfisher's perspective, right, So.

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Speaker 3: What's unclear is what is being planned for the future

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Speaker 3: of fisheries management in the Northern Territory. We've heard the

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Speaker 3: Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Selena Yubo a flag that there

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Speaker 3: will be a full review, that this is just part

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Speaker 3: of a changes to the Fisheries Act and there will

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Speaker 3: be a full review of the Fisheries Act. The review

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Speaker 3: that's occurred so far was not led by the Fisheries Agency.

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Speaker 3: It was led by the Department of Chief Minister and Cabinet.

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Speaker 3: It raises questions as to why the regulatory agency, with

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Speaker 3: the experts who are the expert it's in regulating the fishery,

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Speaker 3: who have the relationships with the fishery stakeholders, were not

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Speaker 3: put in charge of the review.

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Speaker 1: Secondly, we have a.

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Speaker 3: Situation where over two hundred thousand dollars was awarded in

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Speaker 3: a tender to a consultancy company from Western Australia to

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Speaker 3: provide advice to the government on the future management of

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Speaker 3: fisheries in the territory. They only met once with a

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Speaker 3: fan and similarly with the Seafood Council and never followed

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Speaker 3: up on the subsequent meeting that they were supposed to

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Speaker 3: have with us, and so never really got into the

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Speaker 3: detail of anything.

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Speaker 2: What the normal ten thousand dollars two hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: provided to this consultant effort.

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Speaker 3: And that report is now finished. The Government has it,

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Speaker 3: the Northern Land Council has it, and we understand that

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Speaker 3: it was actually merged with a consultancy that was paid

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Speaker 3: for exclusively by the Northern Land Councils that actually.

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Speaker 1: Merged those two together.

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Speaker 3: Still haven't provided it to us, and now they're talking

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Speaker 3: about reviewing the Fisheries Act further. If first of all,

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Speaker 3: what's in that consultancy, secondly, what's been agreed or is

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Speaker 3: being planned to be agreed in the lead up to

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Speaker 3: the full Council meeting that's happening in the next couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks, and then what does that mean. We were

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Speaker 3: told on the ABC last week by the Minister for

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Speaker 3: Aboriginal Affairs that the Government does not consult, does not

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Speaker 3: negotiate with the seafood sector or the recreational fishing sector,

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Speaker 3: and that it only negotiates with the Northern Land Council

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Speaker 3: because it represents landowners and you know, to be honest

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Speaker 3: with you when you're talking about major policy reform over

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Speaker 3: an area worth hundreds of millions of dollars and impacts

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Speaker 3: tens of thousands of Territorians. To say that you won't

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Speaker 3: negotiate with major stakeholders and parties when you're politically reforming

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Speaker 3: legislation is just beyond the pale.

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Speaker 2: You sound like you're annoyed, David, and rightly so, well.

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Speaker 3: Look I am, because you know to be honest, To

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Speaker 3: be honest with you, Katie, the phone has and stop bringing.

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Speaker 3: We've had businesses from all over the territory contacting us.

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Speaker 3: We've had recreational fishes. We've had messages from people saying

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Speaker 3: that's it, I'm done. This doesn't feel like my home anymore.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to live here anymore. And you know,

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, we're a big organization

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Speaker 3: that represents a lot of people, but we're a small

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Speaker 3: team and we've got a lot of people who are hurting,

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Speaker 3: contacting us continually and it doesn't feel like the government

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Speaker 3: is listening to them. Now. This was all set in

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Speaker 3: train by the previous Chief Minister prior to the election.

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Speaker 3: We've met with the Chief Minister to discuss our concerns

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Speaker 3: along with the Seafood Council. We hope she can take

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Speaker 3: a pair of fresh eyes to this and press reset.

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Speaker 1: We're not saying not.

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Speaker 3: To review the Fisheries Act or to make progress here.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the Government's delivered a lot of things

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Speaker 3: to improve traditional loaners abilities to run businesses on country

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Speaker 3: with the reviews and changes to the Aboriginal Coastal License.

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Speaker 3: They provided ten million dollars to the Aboriginal Sea Company.

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Speaker 3: They've reviewed and the objects of the Act. So the

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Speaker 3: government has been delivering. Meanwhile, fishers have been losing access

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Speaker 3: and now we're in a situation where there is more

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Speaker 3: uncertainty and we are really really afraid that they're going

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Speaker 3: to do that by an agreement, which then means later

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Speaker 3: on when things arise at are fundamental problems for us,

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Speaker 3: they get railroaded through because they've already signed a deal.

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Speaker 3: So this is why people are worried. There is so

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Speaker 3: much uncertainty. Come January one, a lot of people don't

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Speaker 3: know if they're going to be able to operate their

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Speaker 3: businesses where they currently can operate it. Recreational fishers don't

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Speaker 3: know if they're going to be welcome in places that

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Speaker 3: they've been welcome ever since they were born in the

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Speaker 3: territory or ever since they've lived in the territory. And

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Speaker 3: it seems like it's acceptable that people just find out

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Speaker 3: whenever it gets announced and they just have to live

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Speaker 3: with the consequences, and that really is not good enough.

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Speaker 2: Now, what is the Minister for Fisheries, Paul Kirby saying,

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Speaker 2: because he attended your AGM recently, didn't.

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Speaker 1: He Well, that's right.

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Speaker 3: We had both ministers in attendance at our AGM, and

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Speaker 3: I guess this highlights the complexity of the issue.

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Speaker 1: We've had major fisheries.

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Speaker 3: Reforms taken away from the Fisheries Minister and the Department

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Speaker 3: of Fisheries and been led out of the Aboriginal Strategic

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Speaker 3: Policy Unit, which is embedded within the Department of Chief

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Speaker 3: Minister and Cabinet. And so, look, we enjoy a good

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Speaker 3: working relationship with Minister Kirby. Minister Kirby has been aware

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Speaker 3: of our concerns, has been working with us on our concerns.

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Speaker 3: But we're in a situation where effectively he is not

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Speaker 3: the minister who is the lead or in control of

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Speaker 3: this and so I guess you have to ask him

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Speaker 3: as how he's being received in cabinet with the concerns

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Speaker 3: that I presume he's raising on our behalf.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I think it's going to be a concern

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Speaker 2: right across the board for so many Territorians. And we

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Speaker 2: all agree, you know, and we've spoken about this before,

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Speaker 2: that the rights of traditional owners obviously need to be acknowledged.

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Speaker 2: We all one hundred percent to understand that. But there

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Speaker 2: seems as though there is so much uncertainty at this

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Speaker 2: point in terms of not only recreational fishes, the seafood

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Speaker 2: counselor as well, so for them it's business too.

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Speaker 3: Well, look, absolutely, Katy, it's really important to recognize that

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Speaker 3: the rights of traditional owners were established in the High

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Speaker 3: Court decision in two thousand and eight. People need a

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Speaker 3: permit to access aboriginal waters.

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Speaker 1: That's the law.

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Speaker 3: There's actually never been anything stopping that from being in place,

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Speaker 3: except for the fact that everybody recognizes they could be

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Speaker 3: a better way forward by having a working permit system

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Speaker 3: or by having a series of agreements where other benefits

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Speaker 3: could be included for traditional owners, and so that's why

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Speaker 3: the NLC has been negotiating. But things have really ground

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Speaker 3: to a holt that no new deals for access have

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Speaker 3: really been agreed since twenty fifteen, and people have been

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Speaker 3: losing access to places. Meanwhile, the government has been delivering

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Speaker 3: on lots of things that's been adding to it, including

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Speaker 3: things that are unrelated to access. So for example, we've

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Speaker 3: heard the Minister talk about the review is related to access,

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Speaker 3: but I mean it absolutely beyond the paal. No one

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Speaker 3: would surely believe that an Act review is going to

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Speaker 3: mean that a particular land trust is going to say, okay,

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Speaker 3: now we're happy, we're going to negotiate, when we know

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Speaker 3: a lot of those land trusts have never even seen

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Speaker 3: or had the genuine opportunity to enter into proper negotiations.

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Speaker 3: And so why is the chain being dragged on these negotiations.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the government is moving through.

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Speaker 3: On its commitments, but the recreational and commercial fishing sectors

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Speaker 3: are being left behind.

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Speaker 1: And these are so many jobs in.

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Speaker 3: Darwin and around the territory. You know, I've had people

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Speaker 3: talking to me about twenty jobs that hang in the

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Speaker 3: balance based on one particular business in where one particular

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Speaker 3: land claim might be granted next year. These people don't

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Speaker 3: know if they're going to have a job next year

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't feel like you could have much faith

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Speaker 3: that a reasonable outcome will be brought about. It of

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Speaker 3: course needs to respect the rights of traditional owners, but

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Speaker 3: also needs to acknowledge that right around Australia rivers and

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Speaker 3: coastlines are places that are of fundamental importance to Australians

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Speaker 3: and Australian businesses and a better way forward has to

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Speaker 3: be broken by the territory. Otherwise it is really not

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Speaker 3: achieving what is the best possible outcome for the territory

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Speaker 3: as a whole.

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Speaker 2: David, where to from here? Who's dragging the chain?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: Where to from here is very very important. All eyes

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Speaker 3: are going to be on what gets announced at the

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Speaker 3: Full Council of the Northern Land Council coming up soon

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Speaker 3: in December. If that includes a signed deal to continue

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Speaker 3: to work on the change the Fisheries Act, well then

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Speaker 3: I think you know, all bets are off. Basically we

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Speaker 3: will be in a very very disturbing place where if

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Speaker 3: that review is going to be led by any agency

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Speaker 3: other than to the Fisheries Agency, which is the agency

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Speaker 3: that should be responsible for this, I don't know how

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Speaker 3: the recreation, fishing sector and the seafood sector can have

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Speaker 3: any confidence in that process. So we are in very

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Speaker 3: uncertain times and I just hope that common sense prevails.

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Speaker 3: I hope that the Chief Minister is able to put

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Speaker 3: her stamp on this to say, hey, listen, things have

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Speaker 3: got away from where we want them to go. Of course,

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Speaker 3: we want to deliver for traditional owners, but we also

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Speaker 3: want to deliver for recreational fishes and fishing tour operators

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Speaker 3: and seafood industry and I think we can do a

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Speaker 3: better find a better way forward. We need to have

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Speaker 3: a policy statement from the government about why they want

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Speaker 3: to review the Act and outline open, transparent and wholly

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Speaker 3: inclusive process. We've written to the Chief Minister. We've asked

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Speaker 3: for her to provide that consultancy report to us, so

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Speaker 3: we're no longer in the dark, and we really hope

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Speaker 3: that we received that this week.

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Speaker 2: And so no word from her office at this point

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Speaker 2: in time as to whether you are going to receive

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Speaker 2: that or whether they're going to sit down with you.

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Speaker 3: So we've sat down with the Chief Minister a couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks ago. We had what I believe was a

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Speaker 3: fair hearing from the Chief Minister. We've obviously been talking

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Speaker 3: to the Fisheries Minister quite a lot. We've written last

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Speaker 3: week to DCM and to the Chief Minister. I think

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Speaker 3: it's still within a fair amount of time for them

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Speaker 3: to respond to us, but we do expect a response

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Speaker 3: this week, and if we don't get that response, then

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Speaker 3: obviously we'd have to look at well, how can we

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Speaker 3: get access to this information. But right now I think

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Speaker 3: we're just awaiting a response and I think hopefully we'll

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Speaker 3: get that in the next couple of days.

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Speaker 2: Well, David Gerovolo, please keep us up to date. I

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Speaker 2: know that our listeners are really going to want to

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Speaker 2: know what answers are provided. So many of them fish

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Speaker 2: and enjoy the waterways here in the territory, and everybody

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Speaker 2: wants to be able to work together to ensure that

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Speaker 2: that can continue to happen.

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Speaker 3: I look absolutely, Katie. We've got so many territories whose

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Speaker 3: mental health is taking a nose die because of this,

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Speaker 3: because either their businesses, all the things that are so

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Speaker 3: near and dear to their heart are facing uncertainty of

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Speaker 3: being taken away from them, and we really have to

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Speaker 3: find a better way forward. And of course we'll keep

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Speaker 3: you and your listeners in the loop.

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Speaker 2: David, thanks so much for your time this morning. Very

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Speaker 2: much appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Katie, thank you