WEBVTT - Meetup CEO David Siegel teaches you to make better, faster, more purposeful decisions 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:05.000 It's our three hundred in the interview process for the 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:11.319 CEO role at Meetup, and David Siegel is getting fed up. Yes, 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.680 you heard that right. David interviewed in one form or 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.720 another for more than three hundred hours before accepting the 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:25.880 role as Meetups CEO. Now, David probably values the interviewer 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.040 as part of the hiring process more than anybody else. 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:33.400 But this was getting ridiculous, and he said, so it's 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.360 a bold move to tell your potential employer that you're 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.080 done with the interview process before they are. But David's 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.000 a big fan of bold moves. Now, in his third 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:48.640 CEO position, David wants to share his expertise on leadership 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.800 and he believes it all comes down to decision making. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.480 So how do you decide? How do you know when 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.440 it's the right time to nod politely and carry on 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:02.520 and when it's time to put your foot down and 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.800 say enough is enough? How do you decide who to 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.240 hire and who to fire? David breaks down his decision 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.800 making framework and shares the key lessons he learned on 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:21.280 the way to building it. My name is doctor Amantha Imba. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.800 I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.200 consultancy invent him and this is how I work a 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.919 show about how to help you do your best work. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.480 So David has a pretty long list of things he 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:39.319 thinks about when it comes to making decisions. I wanted 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.199 to know a few things the feature on that. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.080 List, you know, I think the most common way that 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:48.440 people make decisions, first of all, is the typical pro 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.560 cons list, right, And it's very simple, and I think 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.720 probably people have been doing it since like back in 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.880 cave band cave person days, whereas like you know, hunt 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.280 or gather and the pros each of them. The problem 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.800 with that kind of decision framework for a lot of 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.680 people is it assumes that you already know the two 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:14.560 potential best options to evaluate, and oftentimes you don't. And 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.800 I think what's more important than like a framework per 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.799 se rigid framework is more like guiding principles that are 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.600 particularly important in decision making that you kind of keep 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:28.160 in the back of your head and move to the 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.080 front of your head. So, you know, I think about 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.000 a number of guiding principles and I'll just share a 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.240 few of them with you without the details. And then 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.120 if you want to weak a riff and go into 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:38.840 more detail on any of them that you like, but 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.560 here's just a few of them. So Number one principle 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:46.919 is just transparency and radical candor and sharing as much 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.800 as possible. And the reason for that is because oftentimes 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.640 when people make poor decisions, it's because they don't have 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.960 access to the same information that you have, or they 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.000 don't have access to all the information and they have 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.120 certain opinions that may be very very very different have 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.720 they get access to the right information. So just transparency 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.880 within on a personal level and transparency on a professional 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:12.240 level is extremely important towards decision making. The second one, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.240 I would say is a big one for me is 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:20.320 just the criticality of disagreements in order to drive smart decisions. 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.919 You know, surround yourself by people that disagree. And even 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.800 though it's harder and will lead to more tension and 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.400 more frustration because it makes the decision more difficult when 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.720 you have people around you that disagree, it's so important 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.720 because it ends up resulting in kind of really thinking 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.200 through what's right and what's not right, as opposed to 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.840 surrounding yourself by just kind of like yes people all 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.200 the time. And I could go on and on. Those 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.120 are two and I'm happy to share more, you know, 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.000 as time goes on. I just don't want to talk 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:49.360 for this long right in the beginning. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.640 Now, I'm really interested in what you say about speed, 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.320 because being speedy is something that you say is very important, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.040 and I think a lot of people struggle with that. 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.920 So how do you apply being speedy to decision making, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.760 particularly when you're a CEO and you know this is 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:08.640 so much at stake? 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.240 Okay, So my favorite quote on speed is the following 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:18.240 by Teddy Roosevelt, president of the United States, about one 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.960 hundred years ago. And the quote is the following. The 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.480 best decision is a good decision. The second best decision 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.800 is a bad decision, and the third best decision is 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.880 no decision. And I think, Amantha, you know exactly what 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.719 I'm referring to, which is people's propensity oftentimes for inertia 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.560 and for analysis paralysis, and for the lack of comfort 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.400 in just getting out there and making a speedy decision 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:49.600 and just seeing what happens. People fear failure, people fear mistakes, 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.440 when in reality, the best thing that you could possibly 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:57.120 do is to get something out the whole, minimum viable product. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.360 Lean startup type methodology and that's true on a person level, 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.080 and it's also true on a professional level. Learn from 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.240 it and iterate and make it better. And what people say, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.480 but what happens if I do a bad job the 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.000 first time I get it? What happens if I don't 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.960 do the right thing? What I usually say is you're 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.440 always going to do it suboptimally, You're always going to 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.359 do it wrong. So you want to learn as quickly 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.200 as possible how wrong you were, so the next time 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.600 you could just be a little bit less wrong. So 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.000 the need for speed is so critical and decision making 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.000 because oftentimes also you miss out on opportunities if you 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.720 don't take that action quickly. And I just one of 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.240 the most important things. Again, I'm not just on the 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.160 professional level, but a personal level as well. You know, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.040 should I go out with someone or not go out? 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.640 So let's you know, you spend a month ruminating about 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:43.720 whether or not you should go out with a person 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.560 or not they may already be in another relationship by 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.560 then you lost the option, So it works in both ways. 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.280 Something I think about a lot is like as a 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.880 lad and which decisions should you delegate versus which should 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.200 you cape? And I remember a while ago. Now Id 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:04.720 Rahul Vora, who's the founder of Superhuman, which I talk 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.440 about on this show probably too much because I just 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.200 love that email software so so so much. And something 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:16.920 Rahul spoke about was identifying reversible versus non reversible decisions 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.720 as a CEO and how he will he will make 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.960 the non reversible decisions that can't be reversed, they're very 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.320 high stakes, whereas any reversible decision that can be undone, 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.680 he will delegate. And I'd love to know for you, David, 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.600 how do you think about which decisions you will take 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.640 as a CEO versus what you delegate to your team. 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:40.920 Okay, so, first of all, I love the reversible and irreversible. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.760 My turn that I tend to use when I talk 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:47.440 to my teams is the idea of trapdoor decisions and 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.520 non trapdoor decisions. A lot of times most decisions are 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.760 non trapdoor decisions. So deciding to that you want to 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.279 have a child and having a child, that's a trappedoor decision. 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.040 You kind of really aren't going to unwind that decision, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.400 I hope, And that's not a reversible decision. Most people, however, 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:14.680 overestimate how irreversible something may be. And underestimate how actually 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:21.280 reversible something is. Oftentimes and you know, maybe not easily changed, 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.160 but it certainly is more changeable than they may realize. 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.160 Even a company strategy, which is so important for a CEO, 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.440 you know, to not delegate and to own that again 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.880 can be pivoted in many ways. So my first statement 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.400 before going in to delegation, which I will, is to say, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:43.680 don't assume that decisions are irreversible. Many decisions are very 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.040 easily reversible. It just may take a little bit of time. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.720 That's point one. My philosophy on delegation as a CEO 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.600 is the following. I hire functional experts who are all 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.119 better than me in their functions. Are head of marketing 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.040 a heck of a lot more about marketing than I do, 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.400 and our head of knows the same or had a product. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.360 The head of technology knows the same around tech. So 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.240 the reason I hire them because they are the experts. 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.160 So if there is any area that is a decision 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.960 to be made, that is a clear functional decision, then 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.760 that is one hundred percent delegated all the time. Step one. 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.000 Step two is if I believe that I am the 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.480 one and only, uniquely best person to make that decision, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.240 which is by the way, extremely rare, maybe one or 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:31.600 two percent of the time, and I could go into 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.079 what those are, then I should be making that decision, 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.720 But the other ninety eight percent of the time, someone 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:38.680 else should be making that decision because they will do 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.640 a better job. Now, my role is to challenge the decision, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.160 is to question it if I think ral's questioning, but 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.400 certainly not to make that decision. So then, per your question, 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.520 what are the things that specifically a CEO should be 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.240 most focused on? Here they are? So number one is, 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.600 as Jim Collins said, first who then what? In his 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.760 book Good to Great, focus on who is on the bus, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.679 who your executive team is, Who are the people they're 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.680 going to be leading the company underneath you, and make 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.360 sure you have those right people. Don't start focusing on 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.240 what the right strategy is until you have the right 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.400 people in place. That's probably the number one most important 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.520 decision that you have. And agonize, agonize over who those 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.000 right people are and make sure that you're not afraid 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.520 to make changes if they're not the right people. That's 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.840 top priority decision number one. Top priority decision number two 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.360 is what I like to talk about, which is key 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:43.520 strategic processes to enable smart decisions by a company. I 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.679 know that's a mouthful, sertingly explain what that means. What 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.480 that means is I don't believe that I should decide 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.160 the strategy, because I think it needs to be a 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:56.880 collaborative process between me, the executive team and also input 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.800 from lots of employees. But what I should decide, however, 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.120 is what processes do we want to set up within 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.520 the company. And it could be OKAYRS, which is a 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.240 common process that are used which says we're objectives and 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.679 key results or what other And it could be quarteral, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.080 it could be annually, it could be monthly reviews, whatever 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.600 those processes are, to make sure that you're developing what 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.479 the strategy of the company should be, and also more importantly, 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.440 how you're pivoting and how you're adapting that strategy as 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.360 you gain additional data and additional information, and that you're 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.000 not constantly making changes in people's heads are all over 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.200 the place, but you're also not stuck in doing things 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.720 when data and other information proves otherwise. So actually building 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:44.480 that almost strategic process infrastructure is to be really really 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.360 important to enable success. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.680 Now we've talked about what makes good decisions? What about 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.200 bad decisions? Like, when you think about some of the 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.800 really bad decisions that you've made as a CEO, can 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.640 you identify what's led to you making poor decisions? 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.840 Oh, my gosh, Okay, So, my everyone has their Achilles heel. 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.000 For some people, their Achilles heels anger. For other people 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.040 that are achilles heel is lack of confidence and imposter syndrome. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.840 For me, my Achilles heel has been through my career 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:25.480 is wanting to be liked too much and not upsetting 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.720 people and having people feel as happy and comfortable as possible. 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:31.760 Which you think, hey, David, that's a great thing for 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.000 a CEO to do. You should do that. But I'll 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.240 give you an example of an enormous mistake that I 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.319 made that that is probably one of the biggest mistakes 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:41.920 I made in my career. I'll tell you what it is, 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.480 which is I had joined meet up and we were 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.439 really overly bloated. The company was losing twenty million dollars, 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.560 close to twenty million dollars a year. And of course, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.200 for relative to Rework, that was you know, nothing, but 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.480 relative to us that was meaningful. We were owned by 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.040 we work at the time, I may add, so, so 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.320 I realized we could not. We have too many employees 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.880 and there were too many pet projects that were going on, 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.800 and we had to do a layoff, and then after layoff, 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.880 a lot of employees were well. First of all, I 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.320 did not cut deep enough in that layoff, because I 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.760 didn't want to right start from the beginning and build 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.960 all these enemies and have people dislike me right in 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.440 the beginning, even though we should have cut our costs 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.880 much more significantly. So that was mistake number one related 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.040 to the achilles hell that I have. But the state 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.120 number two, which was unforgivable, I may add, was that 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:38.600 we did a big Q and a session of course 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.480 with all employees afterwards, and one person asked the question, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.760 and they said, how can you assure us that this 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.320 is the first of many and that we shouldn't be 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.440 looking for a job right all of us looking for 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.480 a job right now. And I got so nervous that 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.120 everyone's going to start looking for a job if I 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.120 didn't give them the confidence that they didn't need to worry, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.040 that there wasn't going to be that there was wasn't 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.000 going to be another laugh. And I said we're done. 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.079 We're done. You should not need to worry, because I 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.719 wanted people to feel comfortable and secure that we're done now. 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.040 I wanted that to be the case. But in reality, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.880 you never know what's going to happen in an organization. 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:14.840 You never know what kind of situation, You never know 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.360 what pandemic is going to hit, and what kind of 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.400 changes you're going to make. It wasn't three or six 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.000 months later, but still twelve months later, we had to 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.640 do a much larger layoff at that particular time, and 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.559 people remembered that I had said we were done, And 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.480 you know, that's an example of just a really poor decision, 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.160 where the basis for that decision was wanting to be 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.000 liked and making people feel good, and I could have 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.040 said it in a different way that didn't give any 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:42.720 kind of promise. 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.040 What strategies did you use to help rebuild the trust 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.000 that presumably was a little bit breaken after that? 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.080 Yeah, So, just on the topic of trust, I'll just 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.960 share with you one day, I had an opportunity five 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.960 years ago, I was the CEO of Investipedia prior to this, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.160 to sit with the famous Jack Welch who passed away, 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.520 and he was the CEO of the world's largest valued 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.599 company called General Electric for a long time, and he 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.760 actually won Time Magazine's award for Best Manager of the 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.680 Century of the entire twentieth century. And I said to him, 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.280 what's the one piece of advice you would give me? 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.520 And his answer was, it's all about building employee trust. 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.320 If you have employee trust, then all those areas that 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:34.080 are gray neither clearly good nor bad people will perceive positively. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.000 And if you don't have it, then everything that's in 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:38.800 that gray area, and there's most things are in that 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:40.960 care area, people are going to see negatively. And you're 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.320 The most important that you could do is bill trust, 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.080 you know, in terms of your decision and your work. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.160 So I'm glad you asked that question. So the answer 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.320 is is that I followed Jack Welsch's advice because then 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.440 I said to him, what's the most important thing I 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.040 could do to bill trust? And he said, be as 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.280 transparent as possible. So what did I do after doing that? 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.160 The previous founder never shared financials every single month. We 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.840 shall share one hundred percent of our financials with the 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:09.960 company so they can see exactly how we're doing from 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.440 a financial perspective. Every time we have a board presentation, 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.440 we share the full board deck with all the information 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.920 that we're sending to the board. Every employee gets to 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:20.480 see the exact same thing, and then we have a 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.680 Q and A session with me or with our CFO 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.520 or others to go through any questions that people can have. 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.359 We had we have on listening sessions with all employees 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.360 where people can ask question Q and A. At one 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.480 point we were doing that every other week and then 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.440 different times we're doing it once a month, but give 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.600 people that forum. We have manager Q and A sessions 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:43.960 where it just managers asking those kind of questions. So 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.880 a lot of it just comes down to as much 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:52.040 communication as possible and creating the forum for people to 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:56.640 feel comfortable asking you those questions and when people ask 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.720 you a tough question, to thank them for asking it 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.480 and to not shy away for those tough questions either. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.920 That to me is the most important thing in building trust. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.920 What do you do at that one on one level, 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:13.080 like you know, particularly with your direct reports and perhaps 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.920 that level below to build trust. 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.920 Good. Okay, so first of all, let's talk about the 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:24.960 level below first, which is the importance of skip meetings. 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:31.840 So many leaders exclusively meet one on one with their 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:36.560 direct reports. I set up a cadence of meetings with 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.400 every single person who reports to one of my direct 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.960 reports on a periodic basis. Sometimes it's once a month, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:45.840 sometimes it's just once a quarter, and I'm talking to 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:47.640 them four times a year for thirty minutes each time, 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.000 so it doesn't have to take a lot of time. 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.680 But those SKIP meetings are very important, and I would 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.400 probably say I spend a third to a half of 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:00.040 those meetings just getting to know the person, building a 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.840 personal relationship, talking about the personal, not just the professional, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.040 because a great way to build trust is to make 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.879 sure that people get to know you, get to know 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.399 you as a human, get to know you as a 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.760 person with fears and concerns, and speaking of that. The 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:22.640 more that you're able to share your personal challenges, your vulnerabilities, 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:30.080 your concerns about the company, your thoughts, that really tends 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.680 to build much greater levels of trust because it builds 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.399 a deeper, closer relationship than just more superficial type conversations 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.240 or business only type conversations. And then it's important for 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.240 SKIP levels, and it's also important for direct reports. The 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:49.280 other thing that I tried to do with direct reports 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:53.679 in one on ones is their religion to me, meaning 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.359 I will never cancel one on one without saying to 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.160 someone first, is that okay if we cancel this week 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.600 one on one? Or is it okay if we shorten 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.480 the amount of time for our one on one? Those 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.679 one on ones are very important, and I think oftentimes 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.000 leaders don't realize how the important they are to their 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.320 direct reports, and they get canceled, they get moved. They 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.639 shouldn't be. The second next thing that we do is 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.600 we often but not always, have agendas prior to those 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.280 one on ones, but we make sure not to just 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.639 stick to only the agenda, and at the end of 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.600 the one on one, oftentimes I'll say something like, what 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.880 did we not talk about that's on your mind, that's 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.639 really important to you, and people tend to appreciate that. 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.200 The other thing I try to do is make sure 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.800 that one on ones are not just a tactical list 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:43.760 of check check check, check check, did you do this, 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.240 do this, do this kind of thing, but that we're 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.280 stepping back and kind of talking bigger picture questions and 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.600 we're pulling ourselves out of kind of the day to day, 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.199 and I think that's oftentimes motivational for leaders to be 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.879 able to do and hard and important, hard to do 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.360 because they're oftentimes so stuck in the day to day, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:04.919 but very important in a one on one type dialogue. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.600 We will be back soon with David talking about what's 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.199 involved in a typical CEO's day that would surprise people, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.640 along with his approach to building company culture. And if 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.119 you're looking for more tips to improve the way that 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.440 you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.480 three cool things that I've discovered that help me work better, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.720 ranging from interesting research findings through to gadgets and software 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.560 I'm loving. You can sign up for that at Howiwork 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:39.680 dot co. That's how I Work dot co. I'd love 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.400 to know more about, like what's involved in the day 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.080 to day work of being a CEO of a huge 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.680 company that you think would surprise people. 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.920 How non glamorous it is. Start with that. I mean, 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.480 it's really so funny people to think, oh gosh, it 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.600 must be great you're CEO and you're doing the glamora. 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.719 I'm usually shoving food down my face and like you know, 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.200 five to seven minutes while I'm on another meeting with 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:12.480 someone running downstairs and grabbing something tuna fish and whenever 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.320 I could grab leftovers, you know, running back upstairs to 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.320 you know, a typical zoom meeting because we're there today. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.760 So first step I would say is it has incredibly 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.800 non glamorous. I think people you know, watch shows and 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.280 cee CEOs jetting off and first class or private jest 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:32.080 to you know, do all these amazing activities, and that's 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:36.640 definitely not the case. That's one Two is I spend 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.280 personally an enormous amount of my time on kind of 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.400 h R and people related activities, and I think most 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.320 CEOs spend a lot more time than most people realize, frankly, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.400 So what do I mean by that? Helping to recruit 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.600 top talent? So for example, just today, there was a 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.840 director of data science who were trying to recruit and 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:00.919 the person wasn't sure. So I reached out to the 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.280 person to have a zoom meeting and get to know 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.160 that person a little bit better to try to persuade 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.080 them to potentially join working with different hiring managers to 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.560 make sure that they're really thinking about whom to hire. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:19.040 So that's one part helping to motivate people, train people. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:24.040 Those are very you know, typical HR people related practices, 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.399 But you spend a lot of time, at least I 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.000 spend a lot of time on those types of activities 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.040 and communication. Like what I like to say is, unless 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.480 you're sick of hearing the same thing over and over again, 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.640 you haven't said it enough, and you have to say 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.280 it in lots of different venues. So I'll send a 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.119 message in slack that's not good enough, then I need 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.160 to follow it up potentially an email that's not good enough. 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.280 Then we have an all hands meeting every other week 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:50.400 and we want to have a slide on that that's 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.160 not good enough. Like, you need to repeat the same 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:55.920 messages over and over again. And it's not people's fault 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:00.480 that they need that repetition. It's just human nature. Everyone's 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.680 very busy, and also people need clarity, and by repeating 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.760 messages over and over again, it drives that clarity, which 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:09.560 is so helpful for people. So I would say tremendous 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.679 amounts of time spent on communication and on the people 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.600 aspects of work, and very little time on decision making, 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.880 as funny as it sounds, because I'm talking about decisions 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.160 a lot. But the best decision oftentimes is knowing who 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.760