1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: It's our three hundred in the interview process for the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: CEO role at Meetup, and David Siegel is getting fed up. Yes, 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: you heard that right. David interviewed in one form or 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: another for more than three hundred hours before accepting the 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: role as Meetups CEO. Now, David probably values the interviewer 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: as part of the hiring process more than anybody else. 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: But this was getting ridiculous, and he said, so it's 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: a bold move to tell your potential employer that you're 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: done with the interview process before they are. But David's 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: a big fan of bold moves. Now, in his third 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: CEO position, David wants to share his expertise on leadership 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: and he believes it all comes down to decision making. 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: So how do you decide? How do you know when 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: it's the right time to nod politely and carry on 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: and when it's time to put your foot down and 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: say enough is enough? How do you decide who to 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: hire and who to fire? David breaks down his decision 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: making framework and shares the key lessons he learned on 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: the way to building it. My name is doctor Amantha Imba. 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: consultancy invent him and this is how I work a 22 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: show about how to help you do your best work. 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: So David has a pretty long list of things he 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: thinks about when it comes to making decisions. I wanted 25 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: to know a few things the feature on that. 26 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: List, you know, I think the most common way that 27 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: people make decisions, first of all, is the typical pro 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: cons list, right, And it's very simple, and I think 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: probably people have been doing it since like back in 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: cave band cave person days, whereas like you know, hunt 31 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: or gather and the pros each of them. The problem 32 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: with that kind of decision framework for a lot of 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: people is it assumes that you already know the two 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: potential best options to evaluate, and oftentimes you don't. And 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: I think what's more important than like a framework per 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 2: se rigid framework is more like guiding principles that are 37 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: particularly important in decision making that you kind of keep 38 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: in the back of your head and move to the 39 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: front of your head. So, you know, I think about 40 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: a number of guiding principles and I'll just share a 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: few of them with you without the details. And then 42 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: if you want to weak a riff and go into 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: more detail on any of them that you like, but 44 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: here's just a few of them. So Number one principle 45 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: is just transparency and radical candor and sharing as much 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: as possible. And the reason for that is because oftentimes 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: when people make poor decisions, it's because they don't have 48 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: access to the same information that you have, or they 49 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: don't have access to all the information and they have 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: certain opinions that may be very very very different have 51 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: they get access to the right information. So just transparency 52 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: within on a personal level and transparency on a professional 53 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: level is extremely important towards decision making. The second one, 54 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: I would say is a big one for me is 55 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: just the criticality of disagreements in order to drive smart decisions. 56 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 2: You know, surround yourself by people that disagree. And even 57 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: though it's harder and will lead to more tension and 58 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: more frustration because it makes the decision more difficult when 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: you have people around you that disagree, it's so important 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: because it ends up resulting in kind of really thinking 61 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: through what's right and what's not right, as opposed to 62 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: surrounding yourself by just kind of like yes people all 63 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: the time. And I could go on and on. Those 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: are two and I'm happy to share more, you know, 65 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: as time goes on. I just don't want to talk 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: for this long right in the beginning. 67 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: Now, I'm really interested in what you say about speed, 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: because being speedy is something that you say is very important, 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people struggle with that. 70 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: So how do you apply being speedy to decision making, 71 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: particularly when you're a CEO and you know this is 72 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: so much at stake? 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: Okay, So my favorite quote on speed is the following 74 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 2: by Teddy Roosevelt, president of the United States, about one 75 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: hundred years ago. And the quote is the following. The 76 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: best decision is a good decision. The second best decision 77 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: is a bad decision, and the third best decision is 78 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: no decision. And I think, Amantha, you know exactly what 79 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: I'm referring to, which is people's propensity oftentimes for inertia 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: and for analysis paralysis, and for the lack of comfort 81 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: in just getting out there and making a speedy decision 82 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: and just seeing what happens. People fear failure, people fear mistakes, 83 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: when in reality, the best thing that you could possibly 84 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: do is to get something out the whole, minimum viable product. 85 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: Lean startup type methodology and that's true on a person level, 86 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: and it's also true on a professional level. Learn from 87 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: it and iterate and make it better. And what people say, 88 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: but what happens if I do a bad job the 89 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: first time I get it? What happens if I don't 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: do the right thing? What I usually say is you're 91 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: always going to do it suboptimally, You're always going to 92 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 2: do it wrong. So you want to learn as quickly 93 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: as possible how wrong you were, so the next time 94 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: you could just be a little bit less wrong. So 95 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: the need for speed is so critical and decision making 96 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: because oftentimes also you miss out on opportunities if you 97 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: don't take that action quickly. And I just one of 98 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: the most important things. Again, I'm not just on the 99 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: professional level, but a personal level as well. You know, 100 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: should I go out with someone or not go out? 101 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: So let's you know, you spend a month ruminating about 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 2: whether or not you should go out with a person 103 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: or not they may already be in another relationship by 104 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: then you lost the option, So it works in both ways. 105 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: Something I think about a lot is like as a 106 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: lad and which decisions should you delegate versus which should 107 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: you cape? And I remember a while ago. Now Id 108 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: Rahul Vora, who's the founder of Superhuman, which I talk 109 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: about on this show probably too much because I just 110 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: love that email software so so so much. And something 111 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: Rahul spoke about was identifying reversible versus non reversible decisions 112 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: as a CEO and how he will he will make 113 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: the non reversible decisions that can't be reversed, they're very 114 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: high stakes, whereas any reversible decision that can be undone, 115 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: he will delegate. And I'd love to know for you, David, 116 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: how do you think about which decisions you will take 117 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: as a CEO versus what you delegate to your team. 118 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: Okay, so, first of all, I love the reversible and irreversible. 119 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: My turn that I tend to use when I talk 120 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: to my teams is the idea of trapdoor decisions and 121 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: non trapdoor decisions. A lot of times most decisions are 122 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: non trapdoor decisions. So deciding to that you want to 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 2: have a child and having a child, that's a trappedoor decision. 124 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: You kind of really aren't going to unwind that decision, 125 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: I hope, And that's not a reversible decision. Most people, however, 126 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: overestimate how irreversible something may be. And underestimate how actually 127 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: reversible something is. Oftentimes and you know, maybe not easily changed, 128 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: but it certainly is more changeable than they may realize. 129 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: Even a company strategy, which is so important for a CEO, 130 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: you know, to not delegate and to own that again 131 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: can be pivoted in many ways. So my first statement 132 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: before going in to delegation, which I will, is to say, 133 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: don't assume that decisions are irreversible. Many decisions are very 134 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: easily reversible. It just may take a little bit of time. 135 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: That's point one. My philosophy on delegation as a CEO 136 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: is the following. I hire functional experts who are all 137 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,119 Speaker 2: better than me in their functions. Are head of marketing 138 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: a heck of a lot more about marketing than I do, 139 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: and our head of knows the same or had a product. 140 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: The head of technology knows the same around tech. So 141 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: the reason I hire them because they are the experts. 142 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: So if there is any area that is a decision 143 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: to be made, that is a clear functional decision, then 144 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: that is one hundred percent delegated all the time. Step one. 145 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: Step two is if I believe that I am the 146 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: one and only, uniquely best person to make that decision, 147 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: which is by the way, extremely rare, maybe one or 148 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: two percent of the time, and I could go into 149 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: what those are, then I should be making that decision, 150 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: But the other ninety eight percent of the time, someone 151 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: else should be making that decision because they will do 152 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: a better job. Now, my role is to challenge the decision, 153 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: is to question it if I think ral's questioning, but 154 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 2: certainly not to make that decision. So then, per your question, 155 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: what are the things that specifically a CEO should be 156 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: most focused on? Here they are? So number one is, 157 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: as Jim Collins said, first who then what? In his 158 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: book Good to Great, focus on who is on the bus, 159 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 2: who your executive team is, Who are the people they're 160 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: going to be leading the company underneath you, and make 161 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: sure you have those right people. Don't start focusing on 162 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: what the right strategy is until you have the right 163 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: people in place. That's probably the number one most important 164 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: decision that you have. And agonize, agonize over who those 165 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: right people are and make sure that you're not afraid 166 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: to make changes if they're not the right people. That's 167 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: top priority decision number one. Top priority decision number two 168 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: is what I like to talk about, which is key 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: strategic processes to enable smart decisions by a company. I 170 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: know that's a mouthful, sertingly explain what that means. What 171 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: that means is I don't believe that I should decide 172 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: the strategy, because I think it needs to be a 173 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: collaborative process between me, the executive team and also input 174 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 2: from lots of employees. But what I should decide, however, 175 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: is what processes do we want to set up within 176 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: the company. And it could be OKAYRS, which is a 177 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: common process that are used which says we're objectives and 178 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 2: key results or what other And it could be quarteral, 179 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: it could be annually, it could be monthly reviews, whatever 180 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: those processes are, to make sure that you're developing what 181 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,479 Speaker 2: the strategy of the company should be, and also more importantly, 182 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: how you're pivoting and how you're adapting that strategy as 183 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: you gain additional data and additional information, and that you're 184 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: not constantly making changes in people's heads are all over 185 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: the place, but you're also not stuck in doing things 186 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: when data and other information proves otherwise. So actually building 187 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: that almost strategic process infrastructure is to be really really 188 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: important to enable success. 189 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: Now we've talked about what makes good decisions? What about 190 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: bad decisions? Like, when you think about some of the 191 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: really bad decisions that you've made as a CEO, can 192 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: you identify what's led to you making poor decisions? 193 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, Okay, So, my everyone has their Achilles heel. 194 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: For some people, their Achilles heels anger. For other people 195 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: that are achilles heel is lack of confidence and imposter syndrome. 196 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 2: For me, my Achilles heel has been through my career 197 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: is wanting to be liked too much and not upsetting 198 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: people and having people feel as happy and comfortable as possible. 199 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 2: Which you think, hey, David, that's a great thing for 200 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: a CEO to do. You should do that. But I'll 201 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: give you an example of an enormous mistake that I 202 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: made that that is probably one of the biggest mistakes 203 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: I made in my career. I'll tell you what it is, 204 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: which is I had joined meet up and we were 205 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 2: really overly bloated. The company was losing twenty million dollars, 206 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 2: close to twenty million dollars a year. And of course, 207 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: for relative to Rework, that was you know, nothing, but 208 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: relative to us that was meaningful. We were owned by 209 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: we work at the time, I may add, so, so 210 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: I realized we could not. We have too many employees 211 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: and there were too many pet projects that were going on, 212 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: and we had to do a layoff, and then after layoff, 213 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: a lot of employees were well. First of all, I 214 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: did not cut deep enough in that layoff, because I 215 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: didn't want to right start from the beginning and build 216 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: all these enemies and have people dislike me right in 217 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: the beginning, even though we should have cut our costs 218 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: much more significantly. So that was mistake number one related 219 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: to the achilles hell that I have. But the state 220 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: number two, which was unforgivable, I may add, was that 221 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: we did a big Q and a session of course 222 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: with all employees afterwards, and one person asked the question, 223 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: and they said, how can you assure us that this 224 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: is the first of many and that we shouldn't be 225 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 2: looking for a job right all of us looking for 226 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: a job right now. And I got so nervous that 227 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: everyone's going to start looking for a job if I 228 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: didn't give them the confidence that they didn't need to worry, 229 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: that there wasn't going to be that there was wasn't 230 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: going to be another laugh. And I said we're done. 231 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 2: We're done. You should not need to worry, because I 232 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 2: wanted people to feel comfortable and secure that we're done now. 233 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: I wanted that to be the case. But in reality, 234 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: you never know what's going to happen in an organization. 235 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: You never know what kind of situation, You never know 236 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 2: what pandemic is going to hit, and what kind of 237 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: changes you're going to make. It wasn't three or six 238 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: months later, but still twelve months later, we had to 239 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: do a much larger layoff at that particular time, and 240 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: people remembered that I had said we were done, And 241 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: you know, that's an example of just a really poor decision, 242 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: where the basis for that decision was wanting to be 243 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: liked and making people feel good, and I could have 244 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 2: said it in a different way that didn't give any 245 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: kind of promise. 246 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: What strategies did you use to help rebuild the trust 247 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: that presumably was a little bit breaken after that? 248 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, just on the topic of trust, I'll just 249 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: share with you one day, I had an opportunity five 250 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: years ago, I was the CEO of Investipedia prior to this, 251 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: to sit with the famous Jack Welch who passed away, 252 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: and he was the CEO of the world's largest valued 253 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 2: company called General Electric for a long time, and he 254 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: actually won Time Magazine's award for Best Manager of the 255 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: Century of the entire twentieth century. And I said to him, 256 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: what's the one piece of advice you would give me? 257 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: And his answer was, it's all about building employee trust. 258 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: If you have employee trust, then all those areas that 259 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: are gray neither clearly good nor bad people will perceive positively. 260 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: And if you don't have it, then everything that's in 261 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: that gray area, and there's most things are in that 262 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: care area, people are going to see negatively. And you're 263 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: The most important that you could do is bill trust, 264 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: you know, in terms of your decision and your work. 265 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: So I'm glad you asked that question. So the answer 266 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: is is that I followed Jack Welsch's advice because then 267 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: I said to him, what's the most important thing I 268 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 2: could do to bill trust? And he said, be as 269 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: transparent as possible. So what did I do after doing that? 270 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: The previous founder never shared financials every single month. We 271 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: shall share one hundred percent of our financials with the 272 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: company so they can see exactly how we're doing from 273 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: a financial perspective. Every time we have a board presentation, 274 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: we share the full board deck with all the information 275 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: that we're sending to the board. Every employee gets to 276 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: see the exact same thing, and then we have a 277 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: Q and A session with me or with our CFO 278 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: or others to go through any questions that people can have. 279 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,359 Speaker 2: We had we have on listening sessions with all employees 280 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: where people can ask question Q and A. At one 281 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: point we were doing that every other week and then 282 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: different times we're doing it once a month, but give 283 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: people that forum. We have manager Q and A sessions 284 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: where it just managers asking those kind of questions. So 285 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: a lot of it just comes down to as much 286 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: communication as possible and creating the forum for people to 287 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: feel comfortable asking you those questions and when people ask 288 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: you a tough question, to thank them for asking it 289 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: and to not shy away for those tough questions either. 290 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: That to me is the most important thing in building trust. 291 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: What do you do at that one on one level, 292 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: like you know, particularly with your direct reports and perhaps 293 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: that level below to build trust. 294 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: Good. Okay, so first of all, let's talk about the 295 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: level below first, which is the importance of skip meetings. 296 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 2: So many leaders exclusively meet one on one with their 297 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: direct reports. I set up a cadence of meetings with 298 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: every single person who reports to one of my direct 299 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: reports on a periodic basis. Sometimes it's once a month, 300 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: sometimes it's just once a quarter, and I'm talking to 301 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: them four times a year for thirty minutes each time, 302 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: so it doesn't have to take a lot of time. 303 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: But those SKIP meetings are very important, and I would 304 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: probably say I spend a third to a half of 305 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 2: those meetings just getting to know the person, building a 306 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: personal relationship, talking about the personal, not just the professional, 307 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: because a great way to build trust is to make 308 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 2: sure that people get to know you, get to know 309 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: you as a human, get to know you as a 310 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: person with fears and concerns, and speaking of that. The 311 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 2: more that you're able to share your personal challenges, your vulnerabilities, 312 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: your concerns about the company, your thoughts, that really tends 313 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: to build much greater levels of trust because it builds 314 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: a deeper, closer relationship than just more superficial type conversations 315 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: or business only type conversations. And then it's important for 316 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: SKIP levels, and it's also important for direct reports. The 317 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: other thing that I tried to do with direct reports 318 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: in one on ones is their religion to me, meaning 319 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: I will never cancel one on one without saying to 320 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 2: someone first, is that okay if we cancel this week 321 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: one on one? Or is it okay if we shorten 322 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: the amount of time for our one on one? Those 323 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: one on ones are very important, and I think oftentimes 324 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: leaders don't realize how the important they are to their 325 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 2: direct reports, and they get canceled, they get moved. They 326 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 2: shouldn't be. The second next thing that we do is 327 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: we often but not always, have agendas prior to those 328 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: one on ones, but we make sure not to just 329 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: stick to only the agenda, and at the end of 330 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: the one on one, oftentimes I'll say something like, what 331 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 2: did we not talk about that's on your mind, that's 332 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 2: really important to you, and people tend to appreciate that. 333 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: The other thing I try to do is make sure 334 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: that one on ones are not just a tactical list 335 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 2: of check check check, check check, did you do this, 336 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: do this, do this kind of thing, but that we're 337 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: stepping back and kind of talking bigger picture questions and 338 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: we're pulling ourselves out of kind of the day to day, 339 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 2: and I think that's oftentimes motivational for leaders to be 340 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: able to do and hard and important, hard to do 341 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 2: because they're oftentimes so stuck in the day to day, 342 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 2: but very important in a one on one type dialogue. 343 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: We will be back soon with David talking about what's 344 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: involved in a typical CEO's day that would surprise people, 345 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: along with his approach to building company culture. And if 346 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way that 347 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains 348 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: three cool things that I've discovered that help me work better, 349 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: ranging from interesting research findings through to gadgets and software 350 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: I'm loving. You can sign up for that at Howiwork 351 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: dot co. That's how I Work dot co. I'd love 352 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: to know more about, like what's involved in the day 353 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: to day work of being a CEO of a huge 354 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: company that you think would surprise people. 355 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: How non glamorous it is. Start with that. I mean, 356 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: it's really so funny people to think, oh gosh, it 357 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: must be great you're CEO and you're doing the glamora. 358 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 2: I'm usually shoving food down my face and like you know, 359 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: five to seven minutes while I'm on another meeting with 360 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: someone running downstairs and grabbing something tuna fish and whenever 361 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: I could grab leftovers, you know, running back upstairs to 362 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: you know, a typical zoom meeting because we're there today. 363 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: So first step I would say is it has incredibly 364 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 2: non glamorous. I think people you know, watch shows and 365 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: cee CEOs jetting off and first class or private jest 366 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: to you know, do all these amazing activities, and that's 367 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 2: definitely not the case. That's one Two is I spend 368 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: personally an enormous amount of my time on kind of 369 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: h R and people related activities, and I think most 370 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: CEOs spend a lot more time than most people realize, frankly, 371 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: So what do I mean by that? Helping to recruit 372 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: top talent? So for example, just today, there was a 373 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: director of data science who were trying to recruit and 374 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 2: the person wasn't sure. So I reached out to the 375 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: person to have a zoom meeting and get to know 376 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: that person a little bit better to try to persuade 377 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: them to potentially join working with different hiring managers to 378 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: make sure that they're really thinking about whom to hire. 379 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: So that's one part helping to motivate people, train people. 380 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: Those are very you know, typical HR people related practices, 381 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: But you spend a lot of time, at least I 382 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time on those types of activities 383 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: and communication. Like what I like to say is, unless 384 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: you're sick of hearing the same thing over and over again, 385 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 2: you haven't said it enough, and you have to say 386 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: it in lots of different venues. So I'll send a 387 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 2: message in slack that's not good enough, then I need 388 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: to follow it up potentially an email that's not good enough. 389 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: Then we have an all hands meeting every other week 390 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: and we want to have a slide on that that's 391 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: not good enough. Like, you need to repeat the same 392 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: messages over and over again. And it's not people's fault 393 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 2: that they need that repetition. It's just human nature. Everyone's 394 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: very busy, and also people need clarity, and by repeating 395 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: messages over and over again, it drives that clarity, which 396 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: is so helpful for people. So I would say tremendous 397 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 2: amounts of time spent on communication and on the people 398 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: aspects of work, and very little time on decision making, 399 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: as funny as it sounds, because I'm talking about decisions 400 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 2: a lot. But the best decision oftentimes is knowing who 401 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: the right person is to make a decision, and it's 402 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 2: you know, people reaching out to me all the time 403 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: and saying, hey, can you do you know? Can we 404 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: do this? Can we do that? And usually my response 405 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: is I don't have any ability to make that decision 406 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: at all. You have to talk to our head of. 407 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 3: Product or head and I shouldn't be because if I'm 408 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: making that decision, that's a great way to piss off 409 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 3: people on my team and not have they want to 410 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: work with me because that's their responsibility to make those decisions. 411 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: How do you train people, like, how do you train 412 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: people to stop asking you for permission? Because you know, 413 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: it's something I encounter a lot as well, and even 414 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: when I transition to out of a CEO role, it 415 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: required training for people not to come to me to 416 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: make decisions. 417 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, So so much comes down to building a culture 418 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: within a company where people understand that again at meetup 419 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 2: not this isn't true necessary of all companies, but the 420 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 2: culture that we want to build is asking for forgiveness, 421 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: not for permission. And so much comes down to having 422 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: certain values as a company that are at the center 423 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: of everything that you do, and we have six values, 424 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: you know, as a business. And you know, one of 425 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: those values, for example, is called step up. And what 426 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: we say when we say tell people that the value 427 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 2: is about step up, stepping up is saying, I don't 428 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: care what your job description is like, we want you 429 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: to step up and take on more responsibility. Then you 430 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: feel comfortable taking on because that's how you're going to 431 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: also move up in your career, and that's how better 432 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: decisions are going to get made. And we take this 433 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: six values, and I can share all six if you 434 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: want it, but we take those six values and embedded 435 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 2: in everything we do. It's part of the recruiting process, 436 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: who we hire, as part of promotion process, who we 437 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: decide to promote. It is part of our performance review 438 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: process or three and sixty three feedback process. Everything kind 439 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: of is anchored in those six values. And if you're 440 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 2: able to anchor it in those things, then systemically it's 441 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 2: going to become much more part of the company. 442 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: And you, like you've said that one of the key 443 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: roles of a CEO is around company culture, and I'm 444 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: assuming that you see like that as one of the 445 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: biggest parts of your role. 446 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: Yes, very much so. 447 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: But like culture is something that can be such a 448 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: nebulous term, So like, what does company culture mean to you? 449 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 2: Well, here's what I like to say a lot of times, 450 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: which is when you know, when some people say in 451 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 2: a company, oh my god, the culture of this company 452 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: just sucks. Terrible culture, right, people say that all the time, right, 453 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: hopefully not about your company and my conomy, but people 454 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: say that, what they really mean is, oh my gosh, 455 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: the leadership of this company just sucks. The leadership of 456 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: this company is just how there's so little difference between 457 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: it's just a euphemism between culture and leadership, because the 458 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: leadership of a company will help to drive a culture. Now, 459 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: I inherited a certain culture at meetup from the founder 460 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: because I was the first CEO to take over from 461 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: a founder who is leading the company for sixteen years 462 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: prior to my joining, So there wasn't existing culture, of course, 463 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: But it's important to recognize. Step one is that who 464 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: you are as a leader, how you choose to lead, 465 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: is directly related to what the company's culture specifically is. 466 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: And when you talk about a culture, what you mean 467 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: are what's ultimately rewarded within an organization and what ultimately 468 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 2: is do people perceive as something that is a negative 469 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: and shouldn't be done. It's not like, oh, we have 470 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: a great culture because go barbecuing all the time. Like 471 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: that's not a culture. That's just like a fun thing 472 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: that employees enjoy. What's ultimately rewarded and what's ultimately you know, 473 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: frowned down upon? That to me is really representative of 474 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: a company culture. 475 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: And so how do you as a CEO go about 476 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: shaping that culture, and particularly when you've inherited one that 477 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: maybe you do want to change. 478 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, when I inherited meetup. Meetups culture was 479 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: extraordinarily mission focused, and the mission is an amazing mission. 480 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: The mission is about curing the loneliness epidemic that exists 481 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 2: in this world. Forty six percent of people regularly feel lonely, 482 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 2: and community and building community and helping people to build 483 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: community is an incredible noble cause. But our employee base 484 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 2: were there because of the mission and was almost like 485 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: a nonprofit mentality, and we were losing a lot of money, 486 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 2: but it was it was an anti business actual culture 487 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 2: where if I stood up there on my first day, 488 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: I remember I stood up there and I said I 489 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: care about a whole bunch of things. One thing I 490 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: care about is revenue. Let's here it for revenue, and 491 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: people are like boo. Now, of course people didn't understand. 492 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 2: You get your paycheck because you have good revenue. And 493 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: I liked I'd said over and over again until I'm 494 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: nauseated by the statement. But I really deeply believe it. 495 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: Revenue gives oxygen to our mission, and if you don't 496 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 2: have revenue, you can't really fulfill the mission that we 497 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: have as a company. So it was a very precarious 498 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: situation that I had to change, and ultimately the way 499 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: that I changed it is what I was referencing earlier. 500 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: We changed out near the my twelve direct reports. Only 501 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: one of them was still there. Six months later, eleven 502 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 2: of the twelve people were no longer part of the company, 503 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: and within a year we had an entirely new kind 504 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: of leadership team that resulted in many employees saying, I 505 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: liked our old culture where we spent one hundred thousand 506 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: dollars on a holiday party. That's nice, but we can't 507 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: afford to do that. We want meet up to continue 508 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: forever and not to be shut down because you know, 509 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: we're losing so much money, So you have to be 510 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 2: comfortable making some people kind of less comfortable and changes 511 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: that you're making. But it all stems from the top. 512 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: And if at the top you don't have the right 513 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: people that are the embodiments of the culture and the 514 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: priorities that you're instilling within a company, you're not going 515 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: to be able to instill them just by yourself. 516 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: Now. You mentioned, of course that made Up used to 517 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: be owned by Way Work, and the tale of Adam Newman, 518 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: one of the founders and see of We Work is 519 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: a pretty crazy one. What was your approach when working 520 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: with a leader who is so unpredictable? 521 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: I guess okay, So I just started watching re Crashed 522 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: on Apple TV that just came out this past week, 523 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: and wow, do they do a good job of portraying Adam. 524 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: They didn't even exaggerate much, to be honest. So you know, 525 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: you have to decide as a leader whether or not 526 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: a person that you're going to come in contact with 527 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: and need to work with is someone that you can 528 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: potentially find a working relationship or not, And almost always 529 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: you can. And you shouldn't just wave the white flag 530 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: and give up and say I can't. I know that 531 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to work effectively with 532 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 2: this person, so I'm not What I did with Adam 533 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: is not something I would suggest doing, and I don't 534 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: believe it's a I'll repeat that what I did with 535 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: Adam is not something that I would suggest doing and 536 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: is not a best practice. But to be very honest, 537 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: what I did is I said I need to minimize 538 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: as much contact with Adam as possible because he is 539 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: unable to be pulled in and rained in and he 540 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: has so many strong opinions that are not found. Not 541 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: that there's no necessarily data driven basis that I need 542 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: to minimize attractions. So what I did right for the 543 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: day one is I told the person I was reporting to, 544 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 2: and his name is Artie Minson, who was the president's 545 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: CFO we work at the time, I said, I want 546 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 2: the first three months to have zero contact with Adam. 547 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: Zero contact, and he's like, really, I said, I need 548 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: to learn about the business and to come up with 549 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: my own opinion. And only after three months, well, am 550 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: I interested? And then really getting Adam's perspective. But week 551 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 2: one he's going to have a lot of opinions of 552 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: things that we should be doing. And I'm just going 553 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: to be on the defensive and I'm not going to 554 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: really be able to say, here's actually my suggestions of 555 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 2: what we should do. So I remember I felt so 556 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: great about this. One month in to me being the 557 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: meet up, I get a call and it's from Adam, 558 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: and the first thing he says, David, I know I'm 559 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: not allowed to talk to you, but I just had 560 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: a question about some that used to work for you, 561 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: just to get your quick perspective on whether or not 562 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: you think they're strong. And I was like, wow, kudos 563 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: to Adam that he acknowledged and realized that. And then 564 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: sure enough, only after three months of me being in 565 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 2: the role do we then start engaging in more back 566 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: and forth dialogue, each of which only further cemented why 567 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: it was good to have taken that three month break 568 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: to have come up with a strategy. But you know, 569 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 2: when we first finally met, I said, Adam, here's a strategy, 570 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: here's a document, here's there's here's the financial basis for it, 571 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: here's what the opportunity for growth is for it. And 572 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: it made for a lot easier conversation of me sharing 573 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: a plan that he would react to than having him 574 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: share his plans and having me kind of react to those. 575 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: So I'm curious about that because Adam is notorious for 576 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: setting pretty insane wild goals, and in your book you 577 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: say that you prefer not to set wildly ambitious goals. 578 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: So what is your approach to goal setting? Like, how 579 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: do you know if you're stretching the company enough but 580 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: not being too crazy? 581 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: Okay, I love that question. So I think small wins 582 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: are extraordinarily motivating to teams. And setting a goal of 583 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: I'm making this up fifty percent growth and you only 584 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: grow fifteen or twenty percent, let's say in the previous 585 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: year group by ten percent, but now you double that growth, 586 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 2: but you're still far behind what the goal was is 587 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: so debilitating and so demotivating that people feel that they're 588 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: in a no win situation. When people feel like they're 589 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: in a no win situation, they will leave a company. 590 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 2: Great people can leave a company. So in my mind, 591 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: it is far better, far better to set small, achievable 592 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: goals that you feel good about and they keep compounding 593 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: one upon the other to make for you know, a 594 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 2: lot of success over time and have people build that 595 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,479 Speaker 2: momentum and feel good about the momentum to take to 596 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: the obviously next level of the next level. When you 597 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 2: set over the outrageous goals like we work did and 598 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: you don't have the infrastructure to support those goals, well 599 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: that's how we work in crashing down from forty seven 600 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: billion of vealuation at one point two five billion valuation 601 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: today like close to a ninety percent decrease. When you 602 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 2: set goals and you build the foundation and the infrastructure 603 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: to support growth, that's when you ultimately it's going to 604 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: be sustainable and not like a house of cards. So again, 605 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: in goal setting previous to me, Adam told my predecessor 606 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: what the goals needed to be. So, for example, one 607 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: of the goals was maximize the number of people you 608 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: could hire as quickly as possible. That was literally a goal. 609 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: I mean, that's not the way to run a company, 610 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: and that doesn't make much sense as a key goal. 611 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: Let's just hire lots of people. So we had I 612 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: think twenty people in the human resources department. I mean, 613 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: it just really was was head scratching. And what I 614 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: did is I said, here are the goals that we're 615 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: going to be focusing on. Here are the financial goals, 616 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: and we're going to focus on how and I'm just 617 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: going to tell you what we need to do in 618 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,239 Speaker 2: terms of these goals. But at times we actually had 619 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: to present two different financial projections to we work. There 620 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: was the regular budget financial statements that we have to present. 621 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: Then there was the atom financial projection that we had 622 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: to present where we would get from you know, thirty 623 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 2: forty billion dollars into a billion dollars in three years, 624 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: and kind of have to show both of those two 625 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: scenarios depending on the meetings. I mean, you know, that's 626 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 2: how it was. 627 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: Now, David. For people that want to get their hands 628 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: on to side and conquer or consume other things that 629 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: you're putting out into the world, what is the best 630 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: way for people to connect and consume? 631 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so you can find Decide and Conquer Amazon or 632 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: book Depository or any kind of online forum in anywhere 633 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: really in the world. The audio version and is phenomenal, 634 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: So I'm a big recommender of the audio version, as 635 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: is the Kindle version is quite great as well. We 636 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 2: have a website called Decide in Conquer book dot Com. 637 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: But you could go to really any bookseller and you know, 638 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: find that book outside of the book terms of Meetup. 639 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 2: If you don't know it, download the meetup app, look 640 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: at Melbourne or Sydney or Perth, or any city that 641 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: you might be in outside of Astore or anywhere around 642 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: the world, and you will find some interesting event to 643 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 2: go to our app or of course online. But I'm 644 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: partial to our app, and if you want to contact me, 645 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: check me out on LinkedIn. I'm easy to find, or 646 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: you can even email me David at meetup dot com. 647 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: Pretty simple. 648 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: Amazing, David. I have loved chatting to you and hearing 649 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: all your amazing stories and just how openly and transparently 650 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: you talk about these things. I feel like time has 651 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: just flown by, so thank you so much for giving 652 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: me some of your time. I found it so fascinating 653 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: to hear David's approach to goal setting. It's so easy 654 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: for companies to have these crazy, big goals, especially if 655 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: you are a big tech business, but it's so demotivating 656 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: when you don't hit those goals. At invent here, what 657 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: we do we have an achievable base and then five 658 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: levels of goals all the way out to something that 659 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: feels relatively unachievable at the time that we set it, 660 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: But as we approach the end of this financial year, 661 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: it's actually looking like we might hit that big, crazy goal. 662 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: But if that was the only goal we started with, 663 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: I suspect that the first half of the year would 664 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: have been pretty rough going with such a big goal 665 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: in front of us. Now, if you have not subscribed 666 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: or followed How I Work wherever you're listening to this, 667 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: you might want to do so, because next week I'm 668 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: so excited to have Brian Koppelman, who was the creator 669 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: of Billions, the TV show, talking about his process for 670 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: writing and creativity. How I Work is produced by Inventium 671 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for 672 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: this episode was Liam Ridan, and thank you to Martin 673 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: Nimber who does the audio mix for every episode and 674 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: makes everything sound much better than it would have otherwise. 675 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: See you next time.