1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Hello there. I am taking a little break over Christmas, 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite interviews from 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two to play while I'm away. And if 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: there are any people you'd like to hear from in 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three on how I work, drop me a 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: note via the socials. You can find me on LinkedIn 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: under Amantha Imba and on Instagram at Amantha I. It's 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: our three hundred in the interview process for the CEO 9 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: role at Meetup, and David Siegel is getting fed up. Yes, 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: you heard that right. David interviewed in one form or 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: another for more than three hundred hours before accepting the 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: role as Meetups CEO. Now, David probably values the interviewer 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: as part of the hiring process more than anybody else. 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: But this was getting ridiculous, and he said, so it's 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: a bold move to tell your potential employer that you're 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: done with the interview process before they are. But David's 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: a big fan of bold moves. Now, in his third 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: CEO position, David wants to share his expertise on leadership 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: and he believes it all comes down to decision making. 20 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: So how do you decide? How do you know when 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: it's the right time to nod politely and carry on 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: and when it's time to put your foot down and 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: say enough is enough. How do you decide who to 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: hire and who to fire? David breaks down his decision 25 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: making framework and shares the key lessons he learned on 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: the way to building it. My name is doctor Amantha Imba. 27 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: consultancy invent Him. And this is how I work a 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: show about how to help you do your best work. 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: So David has a pretty long list of things he 31 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: thinks about when it comes to making decisions. I wanted 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: to know a few things. The feature on. 33 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: That list, you know, I think the most common way 34 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: that people make decisions, first of all, is the typical 35 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: pro cons list, right, And it's very simple, and I 36 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: think probably people have been doing it since like back 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: in cave band cave person days. Whereas like you know, 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: hunt or gather and the pros and cons to each 39 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: each of them. The problem with that kind of decision 40 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: framework for a lot of people is it assumes that 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: you already know the two potential best options to evaluate, 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: and oftentimes you don't and I think what's more important 43 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: than like a framework per se rigid framework is more 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: like guiding principles that are particularly important in decision making 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 2: that you kind of keep in the back of your 46 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: head and move to the front of your head. So, 47 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: you know, I think about a number of guiding principles 48 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: and I'll just share a few of them with you 49 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 2: without details, and then if you want to weak a 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: riff and go into more detail on any of them 51 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: that you'd like, But here's just a few of them. 52 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: So number one principle is just transparency and radical candor 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: and sharing as much as possible. And the reason for 54 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: that is because oftentimes when people make poor decisions, it's 55 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: because they don't have access to the same information that 56 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: you have, or they don't have access to all the 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: information and they have certain opinions that may be very 58 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: very different have they get access to the right information. 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: So just transparency within on a personal level and transparency 60 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: on a professional level is extremely important towards decision making. 61 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: The second one I would say is a big one 62 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: for me is just the criticality of disagreements in order 63 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: to drive smart decisions. You know, surround yourself by people 64 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: that disagree and even though it's harder and will lead 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: to more tension and more frustration because it makes the 66 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: decision more difficult when you have people around you that disagree, 67 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: it's so important because it ends up resulting in kind 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: of really thinking through what's right and what's not right, 69 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: as opposed to surrounding yourself by just kind of like 70 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: yes people all the time. And I could go on 71 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: and on. Those are two and I'm happy to share more, 72 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: you know, as time goes on. I just don't want 73 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: to talk for this long right in the beginning. 74 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,239 Speaker 1: Now, I'm really interested in what you say about speed 75 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: because being speedy is something that you say is very important, 76 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people struggle with that. 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: So how do you apply being speedy to decision making, 78 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: particularly when you're a CEO and you know there's so 79 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: much at stake? 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: Okay, So my favorite quote on speed is the following 81 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: by Teddy Roosevelt, president of the United States, about one 82 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: hundred years ago. And the quote is the following. The 83 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: best decision is a good decision, the second best decision 84 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: is a bad decision, and the third best decision is 85 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: no decision. And I think, Amantha, you know exactly what 86 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: I'm referring to, which is people's propensity oftentimes for inertia 87 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: and for analysis proalysis, and for the lack of comfort 88 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: in just getting out there and making a speedy decision 89 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: and just seeing what happens. People fear failure, people fear mistakes, 90 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: when in reality, the best thing that you could possibly 91 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 2: do is to get something out the whole minimum viable product, 92 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: lean startup type methodology. And that's true on a personal level, 93 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: and it's also true on a professional level. Learn from 94 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: it and iterate and make it better. And what people say, 95 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: but what happens if I do a bad job the 96 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: first time I get it? What happens if I don't 97 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: do the right thing? What I usually say is you're 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 2: always going to do it suboptimally, You're always going to 99 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: do it wrong. So you want to learn as quickly 100 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: as possible how wrong you were, so the next time 101 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: you could just be a little bit less wrong. So 102 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 2: the need for speed is so critical and decision making 103 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: because oftentimes also you miss out on opportunities if you 104 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: don't take that action quickly. And I just one of 105 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: the most important things again I'm not just on the 106 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: professional level, but the personal level as well. You know, 107 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: should I go out with someone or not go over? 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: So let's you know, you spend a month ruminating about 109 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: whether or not you should gout with a person or not, 110 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: they may already be in another relationship by then you 111 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: lost the option, so it works in both ways. 112 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: Something I think about a lot is like, as a leader, 113 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: which decisions should you delegate versus which should you keep? 114 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: And I remember a while ago now I had Rahul Vora, 115 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: who's the founder of Superhuman, which I talk about on 116 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: this show probably too much because I just love that 117 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: email software so so so much. And something Rahoul spoke 118 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: about was identifying reversible versus non reversible decisions as a 119 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: CEO and how he will he will make the non 120 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: reversible decisions that can't be reversed, they're very high stakes, 121 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: whereas any reversible decision that can be undone, he will delegate. 122 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: And I'd love to know for you, David, how do 123 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: you think about which decisions you will take as CEO 124 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: versus what you delegate to your team? 125 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so first of all, I love the reversible and 126 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: irreversible my turn that I tend to use when I 127 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: talk to my teams is the idea of trapdoor decisions 128 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: and non trapdoor decisions. A lot of times most decisions 129 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: are non trapdoor decisions. So deciding to that you want 130 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: to have a child, and having a child, that's a 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: trapdoor decision. You kind of really aren't going to unwind 132 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: that decision, I hope, And that's not a reversible decision. 133 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: Most people, however, overestimate how irreversible something may be and 134 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: underestimate how actually reversible something is. Oftentimes, and you know, 135 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: maybe not easily changed, but it certainly is more changeable 136 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: than they may realize. Even a company strategy, which is 137 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: so important for a CEO, you know, to not delegate 138 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: and to own that again can be pivoted in many ways. 139 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 2: So my first statement before going to delegation, which I will, 140 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: is to say, don't assume that decisions are irreversible. Many 141 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: decisions are very easily reversible. It just may take a 142 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: little bit of time. That's point one. My philosophy on 143 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: delegation as a CEO is the following. I hire functional 144 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: experts who are all better than me in their functions. 145 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: Our head of marketing a heck of a lot more 146 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: about marketing than I do, and our head of content 147 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: knows the same, or head a product, the head of 148 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: technology knows the same around tech. So the reason I 149 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 2: hire them because they are the experts. So if there 150 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: is any area that is a decision to be made, 151 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: that is a clear functional decision, then that is one 152 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: hundred percent delegated all the time. Step one. Step two 153 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: is if I believe that I am the one and only, 154 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: uniquely best person to make that decision, which is by 155 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 2: the way, extremely rare, maybe one or two percent of 156 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: the time, and I could go into what those are, 157 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: then I should be making that decision. But the other 158 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: ninety eight percent of the time someone else should be 159 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: making that decision because they will do a better job. Now, 160 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: I my role is to challenge the decision, is to 161 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: question it if I think Rol's questioning, but certainly not 162 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: to make that decision. So then, per your question, what 163 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: are the things that specifically a CEO should be most 164 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: focused on? Here they are, So number one is as 165 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: Jim Collins said, first who then what? In his book 166 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: Good to Great, focus on who is on the bus, 167 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: who your executive team is, who are the people they're 168 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: going to be leading the company underneath you? And make 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: sure you have those right people. Don't start focusing on 170 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: what the right strategy is until you have the right 171 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: people in place. That's probably the number one most important 172 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: decision that you have. And agonize, agonize over who those 173 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: right people are and make sure that you're not afraid 174 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: to make changes if they're not the right people. That's 175 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: top priority decision number one. Top priority decision number two 176 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 2: is what I like to talk about, which is key 177 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: strategic processes to enable smart decisions by a company. I 178 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: know that's a mouthful. Suddenly explain what that means. What 179 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: that means is I don't believe that I should decide 180 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: the strategy, because I think it needs to be a 181 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: collaborative process between me, the executive team and also input 182 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: from lots of employees. But what I should decide, however, 183 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: is what processes do we want to set up within 184 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: the company. And it could be OKAYRS, which is a 185 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 2: common process that are used which says we're objectives and 186 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: key results or what other And it could be quarteral, 187 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: it could be annually, it could be monthly reviews. Whatever 188 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 2: those processes are to make sure that you're developing what 189 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 2: the strategy of the company should be and also more importantly, 190 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: how you're pivoting and how you're adapting that strategy as 191 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: you gain additional data and additional information, and that you're 192 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: not constantly making changes in people's heads are all over 193 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: the place, but you're also not stuck in doing things 194 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: when data and other information proves otherwise. So actually building 195 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 2: that almost strategic process infrastructure is to be really really 196 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: important to enable success. 197 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: Now we've talked about what makes good decisions, what about 198 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: bad decisions? Like, when you think about some of the 199 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: really bad decisions that you've made as a CEO, can 200 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: you identify what's led to you making poor decisions? 201 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, So everyone has their achilles heel. 202 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: For some people their achilles heels anger. For other people, 203 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: their achilles heel is lack of confidence and imposter syndrome. 204 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: For me, my achilles heel has been through my career 205 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: is wanting to be liked too much and not upsetting 206 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 2: people and having people feel as happy and comfortable as possible. 207 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: Which you think, hey, David, that's a great thing for 208 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: a CEO to do. You should do that. But I'll 209 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: give you an example of an enormous mistake that I 210 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: made that that. It's probably one of the biggest mistakes 211 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: I made in my career. I'll tell you what it is, 212 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 2: which is I had joined meet up and we were 213 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: really overly bloated. The company was losing twenty million dollars 214 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: close to twenty million dollars a year. And of course, 215 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: for relative to Rework that was you know, nothing, but 216 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: relative to us that was meaningful. We were owned by 217 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: we Work at the time, I may add, so, so 218 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: I realized we could not we have too many employees 219 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: and there were too many pet projects that were going on, 220 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: and we had to do a layoff. And then after layoff, 221 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: a lot of employees were well. First of all, I 222 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: did not cut deep enough in that layoff because I 223 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: didn't want to right start from the beginning and build 224 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: all these enemies and have people dislike me right in 225 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: the beginning, even though we should have cut our costs 226 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: much more significantly. So that was mistake number one, related 227 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: to the Achilles heal that I have. But the stake 228 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 2: number two, which was unforgive of well, I may add, 229 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: was that we did a big Q and a session 230 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 2: of course little employees afterwards, and one person asked the 231 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: question and they said how can you assure us that 232 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: this is the first of many and that we shouldn't 233 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: be looking for a job right all of us looking 234 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: for a job right now. And I got so nervous 235 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 2: that everyone's going to start looking for a job if 236 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 2: I didn't give them the confidence that they didn't need 237 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: to worry that there wasn't going to be that there 238 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: was wasn't going to be another laugh. And I said, 239 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 2: we're done. We're done. You should not need to worry 240 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: because I wanted people to feel comfortable and secure that 241 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: we're done now. I wanted that to be the case. 242 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: But in reality, you never know what's going to happen 243 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: in an organization. You never know what kind of situation, 244 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 2: You never know what pandemic is going to hit, and 245 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: what kind of changes you're going to make. It wasn't 246 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: three or six months later, but still twelve months later. 247 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 2: We had to do a much larger layoff at that 248 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: particular time, and people remembered that I had said we 249 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: were done, And you know, that's an example of just 250 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 2: a really poor decision, where the basis for that to 251 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 2: say was wanting to be liked and making people feel good. 252 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: And I could have said it in a different way 253 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: that didn't give any kind of promise. 254 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: What strategies did you use to help rebuild the trust 255 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: that presumably was a little bit breaken after that. 256 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, just on the topic of trust, I'll just 257 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: share with you one day. I had an opportunity five 258 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: years ago, when I was the CEO of Investipedia prior 259 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: to this, to sit with the famous Jack Welch who 260 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: passed away, and he was the CEO of the world's 261 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: largest valued company called General Electric for a long time, 262 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: and he actually won Time Magazine's award for Best Manager 263 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: of the Century of the entire twentieth century. And I 264 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: said to him, what's the one piece of advice you 265 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: would give me? And his answer was, it's all about 266 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: building employee trust. If you have employee trust, then all 267 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: those areas that are gray neither clearly good nor bad 268 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: people will perceive positively. And if you don't have it, 269 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: then everything that's in that gray area, and there's most 270 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: things are in that careera people are going to see negatively. 271 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: And the most important that you could do is build trust, 272 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: you know, in terms of your decision and your work. 273 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: So I'm glad you asked that question. So the answer 274 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: is is that I followed Jack Welsch's advice because then 275 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: I said to him, what's the most important thing I 276 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: could do to bill trust? And he said, be as 277 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: transparent as possible. So what did I do after doing that? 278 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: The previous founder never shared financials. Every single month. We 279 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: shall share one hundred percent of our financials with the 280 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: company so they could see exactly how we're doing from 281 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: a financial perspective. Every time we have a board presentation, 282 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: we share the full board deck with all the information 283 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: that we're sending to the board. Every employee gets to 284 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: see the exact same thing. And then we have a 285 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: Q and A session with me or with our CFO 286 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: or others to go through any questions that people can have. 287 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: We had we have on listening sessions with all employees 288 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: where people can ask question Q and a point. We 289 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: were doing that every other week and then different times 290 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: we were doing it once a month, but give people 291 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: that forum. We have manager Q and A sessions where 292 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: just managers asking those kind of questions. So a lot 293 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: of it just comes down to as much communication as 294 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: possible and creating the forum for people to feel comfortable 295 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: asking you those questions. And when people ask you a 296 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: tough question, to thank them for asking it, and to 297 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: not shy away from those tough questions either. That to 298 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: me is the most important thing in building trust. 299 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: What do you do at that one on one level, 300 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: like you know, particularly with your director reports and perhaps 301 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: that level below to build trust? 302 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: Good? Okay, So first of all, let's talk about the 303 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: level below first, which is the importance of skip meetings. 304 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 2: So many leaders exclusively meet one on one with their 305 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: direct reports. I set up a cadence of meetings with 306 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: every single person who reports to one of my direct 307 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: reports on a periodic basis. Sometimes it's once a month, 308 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: sometimes it's just once a quarter, and I'm talking to 309 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: them four times a year for thirty minutes each time, 310 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: so it doesn't have to take a lot of time. 311 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: But those skip meetings are very important, and I would 312 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: probably say I spend a third to a half of 313 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: those meetings just getting to know the person, building a 314 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: personal relationship, talking about the personal, not just the professional, 315 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: because a great way to build trust is to make 316 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: sure that people get to know you, get to know 317 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: you as a human, get to know you as a 318 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 2: person with fears and concerns, and speaking of that, the 319 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: more that you're able to share your personal challenges, your vulnerabilities, 320 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: your concerns about the company, your thoughts. That really tends 321 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: to build much greater levels of trust because it builds 322 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: a deeper close relationship. Then just more superficial type conversations 323 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: or business only type conversations, and then it's important for 324 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: skip levels, and it's also important for direct reports. The 325 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: other thing that I tried to do. 326 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 3: With direct reports in one on ones is their religion 327 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: to me, meaning I will never cancel one on one 328 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: without saying to someone first, is it okay if we 329 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 3: cancel this week's one on one? 330 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: Or is it okay if we shorten the amount of 331 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: time for our one on one? Those one on ones 332 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: are very important, and I think oftentimes leaders don't realize 333 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 2: how the important they are to their direct reports, and 334 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: they get canceled, they get moved. They shouldn't be. The 335 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: second next thing that we do is we often but 336 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: not always, have agendas prior to those one on ones, 337 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: but we make sure not to just stick to only 338 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: the agenda, and at the end of the one on one, 339 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: oftentimes I'll say something like, what did we not talk 340 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: about that's on your mind? That's really important to you, 341 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 2: and people tend to appreciate that. The other thing I 342 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: try to do is make sure that one on ones 343 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: are not just a tactical list of check check checkcheck check, 344 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: did you do this? This, this kind of thing, but 345 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 2: that we're stepping back and kind of talking bigger picture 346 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: questions and we're pulling ourselves out of kind of the 347 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: day to day. And I think that's oftentimes motivational for 348 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 2: leaders to be able to do and hard and important, 349 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: hard to do because they're oftentimes so stuck in the 350 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: day to day, but very important in a one on 351 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: one type dialogue. 352 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: We will be back soon with David talking about what's 353 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: involved in a typical CEO's day that would surprise people, 354 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: along with his approach to building company culture. And if 355 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way that 356 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains 357 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: three cool things that I've discovered that help me work better, 358 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: ranging from interesting research findings through to gadgets and software 359 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm loving. You can sign up for that at how 360 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: I dot co That's how I Work dot C. I'd 361 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: love to know more about, like what's involved in the 362 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: day to day work of being a CEO of a 363 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: huge company that you think would surprise people. 364 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 2: How non glamorous it is. Start with that. I mean, 365 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: it's it's really so funny people to think, oh gosh, 366 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: it must be great. You're CEO and you know you're 367 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 2: doing all these glamora I'm usually shoving food down my 368 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: face and like, you know, five to seven minutes while 369 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: I'm on another meeting with someone running downstairs and grabbing 370 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: something tuna fish and whenever I could grab leftovers, you know, 371 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: running back upstairs to you know, a typical zoom meeting 372 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: because we're there today. So first step, I would say, 373 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: is it that's incredibly non glamorous. I think people you know, 374 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: watch shows and see CEOs jetting off and first class 375 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: or private jest to you know, do all these amazing activities, 376 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: and that's definitely not the case. That's one. Two is 377 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: I spend personally an enormous amount of my time on 378 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 2: kind of hr and people related activities. And I think 379 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 2: most CEO spend a lot more time than most people realize. Frankly, 380 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: So what do I mean by that? Helping to recruit 381 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: top talent? So for example, just today there was a 382 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 2: director of data science who were trying to recruit and 383 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: the person wasn't sure. So I reached out to the 384 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: person to have a zoom meeting and get to know 385 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: that person a little bit better to try to persuade 386 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: them to potentially join working with different hiring managers to 387 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: make sure that they're really thinking about whom to hire. 388 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: So that's one part helping to motivate people train people. 389 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 2: Those are very typical HR people related practices, but you 390 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time, at least I spend a 391 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: lot of time on those types of activities and communication. 392 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: Like what I like to say is, unless you're sick 393 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: of hearing the same thing over and over again, you 394 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 2: haven't said it enough, and you have to say it 395 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: in lots of different venues. So I'll send a message 396 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: in Slack that's not good enough. Then I need to 397 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: follow it up potentially an email that's not good enough. 398 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: Then we have an all hands meeting every other week 399 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: and we want to have a slide on that that's 400 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: not good enough. Like, you need to repeat the same 401 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: messages over and over again. And it's not people's fault 402 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: that they need that repetition. It's just human nature, everyone's 403 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: very busy, and also people need clarity, and by repeating 404 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: messages over and over again, it drives that clarity, which 405 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 2: is so helpful for people. So I would say tremendous 406 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: amounts of time spent on communication and on the people 407 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 2: aspects of work, and very little time on decision making. 408 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: As funny as it sounds, because I'm talking about decisions 409 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: a lot, but the best decision oftentimes is knowing who 410 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 2: the right person is to make a decision. And it's 411 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:50,719 Speaker 2: you know, I have people reaching out to me all 412 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: the time and saying, hey, can you do you know? 413 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: Can we do this? Can we do that? And usually 414 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 2: my response is I don't have any ability to make 415 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: that decision at all. Talk to our head of product 416 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 2: or head and I shouldn't be because if I'm making 417 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 2: that decision, that's a great way to piss off people 418 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: are on my team and not have they want to 419 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 2: work with me because that's their responsibility to make those decisions. 420 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: How do you train people, like, how do you train 421 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: people to stop asking you for permission? Because you know, 422 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: it's something I encounter a lot as well, and even 423 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: when I transition to out of a CEO role, it 424 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: required training for people not to come to me to 425 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: make decisions. 426 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. So so much comes down to building a culture 427 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 2: within a company where people understand that again at meetup 428 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: not this isn't true necessary of all companies. But the 429 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 2: culture that we want to build is asking for forgiveness, 430 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: not for permission. And so much comes down to having 431 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: certain values as a company that are at the center 432 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: of everything that you do. And we have six values, 433 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: you know, as a business. And you know, one of 434 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: those values, for example, is called up. And what we 435 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: say when we say tell people that the value is 436 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 2: about step up. Stepping up is saying I don't care 437 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 2: what your job description is like, we want you to 438 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: step up and take on more responsibility. Then you feel 439 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 2: comfortable taking on because that's how you're going to also 440 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 2: move up in your career, and that's how better decisions 441 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: are going to get made. And we take this six values. 442 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: I can share all six if you wanted, but we 443 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: take those six values and embedded in everything we do. 444 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 2: It's part of the recruiting process, who we hire, it's 445 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: part of promotion process, who we decide to promote, it's 446 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,239 Speaker 2: part of our performance review process, our three and six 447 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: three feedback process. Everything kind of is anchored in those 448 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: six values, and if you're able to anchor it in 449 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: those things, then systemically it's going to become much more 450 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: part of the company. 451 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: And like you've said that one of the key roles 452 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: of a CEO is around company culture, and I'm assuming 453 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: that you see like that as one of the biggest 454 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: parts of your role. 455 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: Yes, very much so. 456 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: But like culture is something that can be such a 457 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: nebulous term, So, like, what does company culture mean to you? 458 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: Well, here's what I like to say a lot of times, 459 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: which is when you know, when some people say in 460 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: a company, oh my god, the culture of this company 461 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 2: just sucks. Terrible culture, right, people say that all the time, right, 462 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: hopefully not about your company and my comny, but people 463 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: say that, what they really mean is, oh my gosh, 464 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: the leadership of this company just sucks. The leadership of 465 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: this company is just how there's so little difference between 466 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: it's just a euphemism between culture and leadership, because the 467 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: leadership of a company will help to drive a culture. Now, 468 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 2: I inherited a certain culture at meetup from the founder 469 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 2: because I was the first CEO to take over from 470 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: a founder who is leading the company for sixteen years 471 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: prior to my joining, so there wasn't existing culture, of course, 472 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: but it's important to recognize. Step one is that who 473 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: you are as a leader, how you choose to lead, 474 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 2: is directly related to what the company's culture specifically is. 475 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 2: And when you talk about a culture, sure what you 476 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: mean are what's ultimately rewarded within an organization. And what 477 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 2: ultimately is is do people perceive as something that is 478 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 2: a negative and shouldn't be done. It's not like, oh, 479 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: we have a great culture because go barbecuing all the time. 480 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 2: Like that's not a culture. That's just like a fun 481 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: thing that employees enjoy. It's what's ultimately rewarded and what's 482 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 2: ultimately you know, frowned down upon. That to me is 483 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: really representative of a company culture. 484 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: And so how do you, as a CEO go about 485 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: shaping that culture, and particularly when you've inherited one that 486 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: maybe you do want to change. 487 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, when I inherited meetup, Meetup's culture was 488 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: extraordinarily mission focused, and the mission is an amazing mission. 489 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: The mission is about curing the loneliness epidemic that exists 490 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: in this world. Forty six percent of people regular are 491 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 2: filled only and community and building community and helping people 492 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: to build community is an incredible noble cause. But our 493 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: employee base were there because of the mission, and it 494 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: was almost like a nonprofit mentality that we were losing 495 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: a lot of money, but it was it was an 496 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 2: anti business actual culture where if I stood up there 497 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: on my first day, I remember I stood up there 498 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: and I said, I care about a whole bunch of things. 499 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: One thing I care about is revenue. Let's here it 500 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 2: for revenue, and people are like boo. Now, of course 501 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: people didn't understand you get your paycheck because you have 502 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: good revenue. And I liked I'd said over and over 503 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: again until I'm nauseated by the statement. But I really 504 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: deeply believe it. Revenue gives oxygen to our mission and 505 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: if you don't have revenue, you can't really fulfill the 506 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 2: mission that we have as a company. So it was 507 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: a very precarious situation that I had to change, and 508 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: ultimately the way that I changed it is what I 509 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: was reference sing earlier. We changed out near the my 510 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 2: twelve direct reports. Only one of them was still there. 511 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: Six months later, eleven of the twelve people were no 512 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: longer part of the company, and within a year we 513 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 2: had an entirely new kind of leadership team that resulted 514 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: in many employees saying, I liked our old culture where 515 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: we spent one hundred thousand dollars on a holiday party. 516 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 2: That's nice, but we can't afford to do that. We 517 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: want Meetup to continue forever and not to be you know, 518 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 2: shut down because you know we're losing so much money. 519 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: So you have to be comfortable making some people kind 520 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: of less comfortable and changes that you're making. But it 521 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: all stems from the top. And if at the top 522 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: you don't have the right people that are the embodiments 523 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: of the culture and the priorities that you're instilling within 524 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: a company, you're not going to be able to instill 525 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: them just by yourself. 526 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: Now. You mentioned, of course that made Up used to 527 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: be owned by we Work, and the tale of Adam Newman, 528 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,719 Speaker 1: one of the founders and SEEO of We Work is 529 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: a pretty crazy one. What was your approach when working 530 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: with a leader who is so unpredictable? 531 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: I guess Okay, So I just started watching We Crashed 532 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: on Apple TV that just came out this past week, 533 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: and wow, did they do a good job of for 534 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: sharing Adam. They didn't even exaggerate much, to be honest. 535 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: So you know, you have to decide as a leader 536 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: whether or not a person that you're going to come 537 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: in contact with I need to work with is someone 538 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: that you can potentially find a working relationship or not, 539 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: And almost always you can. And you shouldn't just wave 540 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: the white flag and give up and say I can't. 541 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: I know that I'm not going to be able to 542 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: work effectively with this person, so I'm not. What I 543 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: did with Adam is not some thing I would suggest doing, 544 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: and I don't believe it's a I'll repeat that what 545 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: I did with Adam is not something that I would 546 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: suggest doing and is not a best practice. But to 547 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: be very honest, what I did is I said, I 548 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: need to minimize as much contact with Adam as possible 549 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: because he is unable to be pulled in and rained in, 550 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: and he has so many strong opinions that are not found. 551 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: Not that there's no necessarily data driven basis for that. 552 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: I need to minimize intraction. So what I did right 553 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: for the day one is I told the person I 554 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: was reporting to, and his name is Artie Minson, who 555 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: was the president's CFO we work at the time. I said, 556 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: I want the first three months to have zero contact 557 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: with Adam, zero contact, and he's like, really, I said, 558 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: I need to learn about the business and need to 559 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: come up with my own opinion. And only after three months, well, 560 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: am I interested and then really getting Adam's perspective. But 561 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: week one, He's going to have a lot of opinions 562 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: of things that we should be doing, and I'm just 563 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: going to be on the defensive and I'm not going 564 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: to really be able to say, here's actually my suggestions 565 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: of what we should do. Remember, I felt so great 566 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: about this. One month in to me being to meet up, 567 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 2: I get a call and it's from Adam. And the 568 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: first thing he says, David, I know I'm not allowed 569 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: to talk to you, but I just had a question 570 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 2: about so that used to work for you, just to 571 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 2: get your quick perspective on whether or not you think 572 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 2: they're strong. And I was like, wow, kudos to Adam 573 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: that he acknowledged me. You realized that. And then sure enough, 574 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 2: only after three months of me being in the role, 575 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: do we then start engaging in more back and forth dialogue, 576 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: each of which only further cemented why it was good 577 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: to have taken that three month break to have come 578 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: up with a strategy. But you know, when we first 579 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: finally met, I said, Adam, here's a strategy, here's a document, 580 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: here's the here's the here's the financial basis for it, 581 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: here's what the opportunity for growth is for it. And 582 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 2: it made for a lot easier conversation of me sharing 583 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: a plan that he would react to than having him 584 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: share his plans and having me kind of react to those. 585 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: So I'm curious about it because Adam is notorious for 586 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: setting pretty insane wild goals, and in your book you 587 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: say that you prefer not to set wildly ambitious goals. 588 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: So what is your approach to goal setting? Like, how 589 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: do you know if you're stretching the company enough but 590 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: not being too crazy? 591 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: Okay, I love that question. So I think small wins 592 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: are extraordinarily motivating to teams. And setting a goal of 593 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: I'm making this up fifty percent growth and you only 594 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: grow fifteen or twenty percent. Let's say in the previous 595 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: year your group by ten percent, but now you double 596 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: that growth, but you're still far behind what the goal 597 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: was is so debilitating and so demotivating that people feel 598 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: that they're in a no win situation. When people feel 599 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: like they're in a no win situation, they will leave 600 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 2: a company. Great people can leave a company. So in 601 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: my mind, it is far better, far better to set small, 602 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: achievable goals that you feel good about and they keep 603 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: compounding one upon the other to make for you know, 604 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 2: a lot of success over time and have people build 605 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: up momentum and feel good about the momentum to take 606 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: to the obviously next level. The next level when you 607 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: set over the outrageous goals like we Work did, and 608 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: you don't have the infrastructure to support those goals, well 609 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: that's how we Work came crashing down from forty seven 610 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: billion valuation at one point to five billion valuation today, 611 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: like close to a ninety percent you know, decrease. When 612 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: you set goals and you build the foundation and the 613 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: infrastructure to support growth, that's when you ultimately it's going 614 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: to be sustainable and not like a house of cards. 615 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: So again, in goal setting previous to me, Adam told 616 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,479 Speaker 2: my predecessor what the goals needed to be. So, for example, 617 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 2: one of the goals was maximize the number of people 618 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 2: you could hire as quickly as possible. That was literally 619 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: a goal. I mean, that's not the way to run 620 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: a company, and that doesn't make much sense as a 621 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 2: key Let's just hire lots of people. So we had 622 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: I think twenty people in the human resources department. I mean, 623 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 2: it just really was was head scratching. And what I 624 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: did is I said, here are the goals that we're 625 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 2: going to be focusing on. Here are the financial goals, 626 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: and we're going to focus on how, And I'm just 627 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: going to tell you what we need to do in 628 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 2: terms of these goals. But at times we actually had 629 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 2: to present two different financial projections to we work. There 630 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 2: was the regular budget financial statements that we have to present. 631 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: Then there was the atom financial projection that we had 632 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: to present where we would get from you know, thirty 633 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: forty billion dollars into a billion dollars in three years, 634 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 2: and kind of have to show both of those two 635 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: scenarios depending on the meetings. I mean, you know, that's 636 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: how it was. 637 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: Now, David. For people that want to get their hands 638 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: on to side and conquer or consume other things that 639 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: you're putting out into the world, what is the best 640 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: way for people to connect and. 641 00:34:54,520 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 2: Consume okay, So you can find Decide and Conquer Amazon 642 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: or book Depository or any kind of online forum in 643 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: anywhere really in the world. The audio version and is phenomenal, 644 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 2: so I'm a big recommender of the audio version, as 645 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: is the Kindle version is quite great as well. We 646 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: have a website called Decide in concoerbook dot com, but 647 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 2: you could go to really any bookseller and you know, 648 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: find that book outside of the book terms of Meetup. 649 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 2: If you don't know it, download the meet up app, 650 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 2: look at Melbourne or Sydney or Perth or any city 651 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: that you might be in outside of Astoria or anywhere 652 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: around the world, and you will find some interesting event 653 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: to go to on our app or of course online. 654 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 2: But I'm partial to our app. And if you want 655 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: to contact me, check me out on LinkedIn. I'm easy 656 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: to find, or you can even email me David at 657 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 2: meetup dot com. Pretty simple. 658 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: Amazing, David. I have loved chatting to you and hearing 659 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: all your amazing stories and just how like openly and 660 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: transparently you talk about these things. I feel like time 661 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: has just flown by, So thank you so much for 662 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: giving me some of your time. I found it so 663 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: fascinating to hear David's approach to goal setting. It's so 664 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: easy for companies to have these crazy, big goals, especially 665 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: if you are a big tech business, but it's so 666 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: demotivating when you don't hit those goals. At invent Here, 667 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: what we do we have an achievable base and then 668 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: five levels of goals all the way out to something 669 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: that feels relatively unachievable at the time that we set it. 670 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: But as we approach the end of this financial year, 671 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: it's actually looking like we might hit that big, crazy goal. 672 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: But if that was the only goal we started with, 673 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: I suspect that the first half of the year would 674 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,479 Speaker 1: have been pretty rough going with such a big goal 675 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: in front of us. Thank you for sharing part of 676 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 1: your day with me by listening to How I Work. 677 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, 678 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy 679 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work 680 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, 681 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: part of the cool and Nation. I am so grateful 682 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: for being able to work and live on this beautiful land, 683 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: and I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, 684 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: present and emerging. How I Work is produced by Inventium 685 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for 686 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: this episode was Liam Reardon, and thank you to Martin 687 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: Nimba who did the audio mix and makes everything sound 688 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise.