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Speaker 1: Okay, Mike drop moment. I'm going to say it and

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Speaker 1: people are gonna hate me for it, but here we go, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Competition and kids, they don't mix. Little kids don't do

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Speaker 1: well with competition. It's provocative, it's sensationalistic. But kids don't

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Speaker 1: love competition. I've said it.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean they don't love it? We're going

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Speaker 2: every child who ever existed this competitive.

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Speaker 1: Just because they're competitive doesn't mean it's good for them,

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Speaker 1: and it certainly doesn't mean that they like it.

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Speaker 2: Hello.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every day.

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Speaker 1: This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. And after the

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Speaker 1: break we answer one of your tricky questions. This one

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Speaker 1: comes from Emma in New South Wales who wants to

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Speaker 1: know what to do about a five year old who

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Speaker 1: has to win everything. If you have competitive kids, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to miss this. Stay with us. Hello, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions, every single

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded any podcasts. We are Justin

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Speaker 1: and Kylie Coulson. We're the parents of six daughters.

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Speaker 2: Are you being competitive?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's pretty rare that I get beaten on that one.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, although I was in Perth couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks ago and somebody had eight kids and I

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Speaker 1: just I stood there and bowed down to the moment.

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Speaker 1: What else could I do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would bow down.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty impressive today a conversation that I think is

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Speaker 1: really important. Oh, by the way, I should finish the

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Speaker 1: intro and get through the formalities. If you would like

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Speaker 1: to submit a tricky question every Tuesday, we answer them

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Speaker 1: on the podcast about anything that you want to talk about. Like,

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Speaker 1: we mainly focus on parenting stuff, but we will literally

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Speaker 1: answer any question about anything. Happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: Just scroll down to the super simple system where it

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Speaker 1: says podcasts, you click the record button, you start talking.

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Speaker 1: Just like Emma from New South Wales, I have.

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Speaker 3: A five year old girl. She's my oldest and she's

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Speaker 3: currently in kindergarten. She is currently obsessed with coming first.

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Speaker 3: We've tried to speak with her about how you can't

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Speaker 3: always come first and you need to share things and

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Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff, but it doesn't seem to

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Speaker 3: be working. It happens quite often, even just going up

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Speaker 3: the stairs to go to bed, she has to be

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Speaker 3: first up the stairs. If she isn't, she'll start to

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Speaker 3: cry and eventually tantrum. Any suggestions on how we can

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Speaker 3: help her process this.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, Okay, Kylie, I got to go first on this one.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious because I'm trying to work out what

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Speaker 2: advice you're going to give.

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Speaker 1: I thought you were going to fight with me and

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Speaker 1: say non, no, no, because you are the competitive one

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Speaker 1: in our hunt.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing better than making it up the hill

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Speaker 2: on my bike as I fly past you and leave

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Speaker 2: you lagging.

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Speaker 1: You had to bring that up, didn't you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels really good. So, Emma, I'm with your daughter.

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Speaker 2: There is something joyful about that moment.

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Speaker 1: We've lived this with six daughters. Before we answer the

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Speaker 1: question about just a moment of empathy for you and

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Speaker 1: any other parent who's children have insisted on being the

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Speaker 1: first one to.

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Speaker 2: Push and the lights off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, push the button, but I want to push the button.

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Speaker 1: I'm having the first shower. No, I'm having the first shower.

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Speaker 2: Brutal. Yeah, card games never ever, we play games and

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Speaker 2: the cheating the things.

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Speaker 1: What about the pedestrian crossing? I got to push the

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Speaker 1: button so I can cross at the crossing when the

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Speaker 1: kids be younger. I mean, it's just I want to

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Speaker 1: be the first one down the slide. I want to

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Speaker 1: be the first one on the swing. This is this

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Speaker 1: is kids, all right. There's a couple of things that

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Speaker 1: we need to talk about here. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about why in the first part of this podcast. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess the.

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Speaker 2: First thing to tell Emma is the acknowledgment that her

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Speaker 2: daughter is exactly where she's supposed to be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is normal.

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Speaker 4: This is so normal. You've got siblings, she does the eldest.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, how's my listening skills. See, I'm getting excited

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Speaker 4: about what I want to talk about. So there's a

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Speaker 4: couple of developmental realities here that we should discuss. The

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Speaker 4: first one has to do with the Swiss psychologist Jean

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Speaker 4: Pierging and some of his brilliant, brilliant insights. So he

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Speaker 4: developed this four stage developmental model, Kylie, and what we're

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Speaker 4: talking about at the age of five is a child

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Speaker 4: transitioning from what's known as pre operational thinking to concrete

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Speaker 4: operational thinking. And this is really at the crux of

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Speaker 4: what we're discussing.

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Speaker 2: That's some big words.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Okay, pre operational thinking, so pre operational. This

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Speaker 1: is typically ages. I'm going to say two or three

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Speaker 1: through to six or seven, okay thereabouts, So coming to

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Speaker 1: the end of this stage. Now with a five year old,

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Speaker 1: there's something called conservation. So I can have five M

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Speaker 1: and ms all bundled up in my hand really tight,

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Speaker 1: or I can spread them out on the counter and

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Speaker 1: they're still five. But you know, like kids, they'll see

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Speaker 1: a small bundle of things, I'll see things spread out.

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Speaker 1: They don't understand that it's the same thing. One thing

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Speaker 1: looks bigger, so therefore it is bigger, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. That just reminded me of how many times there's

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Speaker 2: been fights over who gets the biggest piece of cake

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Speaker 2: or slice.

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Speaker 1: The way that I've always resolved that is you cut it,

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Speaker 1: the other person chooses, yeah, which piece.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I understand what you're saying, unless they look

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Speaker 2: exactly the same, ye to a child, Like we've got

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Speaker 2: two different sized glasses in our house.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and they hold the same amount.

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Speaker 2: Of exactly the same amount.

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Speaker 1: But one's short and one's tall and skinny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but they will pick the big glass every

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Speaker 2: time because.

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Speaker 1: They're convinced they're getting more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So that's conservation of matter, and in

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Speaker 1: pre operational thinking. Another thing in pre operational thinking is

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Speaker 1: the understanding, well, as you move out of pre operational thinking,

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Speaker 1: you begin to understand that more than one think can

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Speaker 1: be true at once. And with younger kids, they really

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Speaker 1: struggle with that. So first is binary, First is concrete.

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Speaker 1: First is absolute, And at the age of five, it's

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Speaker 1: really hard to hold onto this nuanced idea that I

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Speaker 1: don't win the race up the stairs, or I don't

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Speaker 1: get to turn the light off, and I'm still a

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Speaker 1: capable person, or I'm still a good person, or I'm

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Speaker 1: still competent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that that's true for so many

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Speaker 2: of us. We tie our worth up in results.

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Speaker 1: Yeah to her performance exactly. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. There's also

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Speaker 1: something else going on developmentally here. She's still pretty egocentric.

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Speaker 1: Egocentrism sort of peaks that around about somewhere around that

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Speaker 1: pre operational stage, somewhere between two three four, But there's

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Speaker 1: still a bit of it at five. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know plenty of adults and a lot of teenagers that

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Speaker 1: are pretty egocentric as well, but this is when it

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Speaker 1: really peaks, which means that she's going to struggle to

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Speaker 1: take other people's perspectives. She doesn't have this concept of

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Speaker 1: why they might also want to be first, because it's

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Speaker 1: all about her, and at this age they're just so

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Speaker 1: black and white. Now as they move into concrete, operational thinking,

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Speaker 1: the other big word that I used this is where

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Speaker 1: they start to become a bit more capable. They're still

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Speaker 1: super inflexible, super super rigid, but they start to just

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Speaker 1: relax a little bit more into some of these ideas

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Speaker 1: and they become a little bit more cognitively flexible. The

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Speaker 1: other thing that I really wanted to highlight Kylie is

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Speaker 1: we talk about all the time basic psychological needs. Competence

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Speaker 1: is a basic psychological need, and kids just want to

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Speaker 1: look competent, and the best way to look competent is

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Speaker 1: to win. Come first. If I can, Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: If I can win, then I am competent, and kids

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Speaker 1: just they look for observable evidence of competence all the time.

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Speaker 1: If she doesn't come first, it's not just disappointment. It

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Speaker 1: feels like it's a need threat and she doesn't know

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Speaker 1: if she can be capable and effective, and it triggers

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Speaker 1: that distress response, which for her is really genuine. Probably

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Speaker 1: also worth just highlighting emotion regulation still pretty low at

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Speaker 1: this point. It develops across time, and kids don't get

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Speaker 1: good at emotional regulation in most circumstances most of the

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Speaker 1: time until about the age of eight, nine, maybe even ten.

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Speaker 2: Nine did you say eight?

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Speaker 1: Maybe even ten? So they're the three main reasons, Emma,

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Speaker 1: that this is occurring why kids are so competitive at

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Speaker 1: this age. And it does get better, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: get a lot better for the next few years. Kylie,

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Speaker 1: what age would you say our children stop being competitive?

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Speaker 1: They've got you for a dad.

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Speaker 2: There's no.

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Speaker 1: Says the mum who just relishes beating me up right

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Speaker 1: on the bike, getting up the hill fast. Hey, after

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Speaker 1: the break, let's talk about what to do. You're back.

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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast. What do you do

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Speaker 1: when you've got a super competitive child? Kylie? I've got

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Speaker 1: a handful of ideas, But before we jump into my ideas,

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Speaker 1: do you have anything that really stands out to you

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Speaker 1: with something that we have done so effectively to curtailing

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Speaker 1: and effectiveness of our children.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm laughing, So you don't have.

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Speaker 1: Any good ideas. I guess my ideas are better. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go first, again, you're gonna tell me to

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Speaker 1: go or have you got something for us?

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Speaker 2: You win?

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go. First of all, relax, it's normal, it's appropriate,

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Speaker 1: it's developmentally standard. Relax. If you fight against nature, you

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Speaker 1: are going to lose. Nature wins all the time. Nature wins.

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Speaker 2: So when I think about what she's shared, she has

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Speaker 2: suggested that this is her oldest daughter. So there are

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Speaker 2: other children. We're not sure how many, but there are

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Speaker 2: other children. And at this point I would say that

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Speaker 2: it's probably not having a huge impact on them.

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Speaker 1: Too young.

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Speaker 2: They're too young, So life is going to teach her

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Speaker 2: this lesson.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say they're too you know, and they don't care.

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Speaker 1: They probably do care. But at this point she's going

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Speaker 1: to win and make the most noise about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and life will teach.

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Speaker 2: Them, and so it might not be something that you

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Speaker 2: have to stress about so much at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that it is. In fact, My

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Speaker 1: last point is I'm going to wrap up with a

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Speaker 1: little bit more on that. My second point is this

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Speaker 1: play games, play games regularly, and let her lose and

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Speaker 1: win in low stakes environments.

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Speaker 2: So for me, I think one of the things that

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Speaker 2: would help as well is if you're going to bed

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Speaker 2: and you know that getting to the top of the

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Speaker 2: stairs and winning is the most important thing. Changing it

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Speaker 2: up and saying I'm wondering how slow you can go,

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Speaker 2: like can you be as slow as a snail as

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Speaker 2: you go up the stairs, and just giving her different

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Speaker 2: actions to do the different tasks that require her to

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Speaker 2: actually slow down.

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Speaker 1: The third thing that I was going to suggest is

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Speaker 1: to model losing well, so if you lose something, you

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Speaker 1: don't have a dumby spit. Make sure that she's got

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Speaker 1: good models of losing, but also model winning well. And

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Speaker 1: this is probably antithetical to what most people would think. Again,

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Speaker 1: I started the podcast with the microp moment, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to kind of move towards a wrap up with the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I'm pretty anti competitive. I don't really love competition,

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Speaker 1: and the main reason is that for me to feel good,

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Speaker 1: I have to make you feel bad. So young kids

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Speaker 1: they don't get when like Kylie, I don't care. I

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Speaker 1: love seeing you beat me up the hill. I get

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Speaker 1: so much joy from it when I see that you've

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Speaker 1: gone from not wanting to ride a bike at all

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Speaker 1: to writing with so much confidence and so much power

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Speaker 1: and so much panache that you can raise me up

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Speaker 1: the hill and beat me like. It makes me happy

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Speaker 1: to see you win. I don't feel like I'm less

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Speaker 1: of a person for losing. And I think that when

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Speaker 1: kids can see that model his stories like that, We've

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Speaker 1: got this crazy idea in our society that competition is

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Speaker 1: always good. That's in that positive But for the competition

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Speaker 1: is based on the premise that for me to feel

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Speaker 1: good about myself, you have to feel bad about yourself,

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Speaker 1: that I have to make you lose. I have to

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Speaker 1: make you suffer, I have to grind you into the ground.

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Speaker 1: I have to win. You have to lose. Someone's going

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Speaker 1: to be sad here. It's not going to be me.

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Speaker 1: That's probably an overstated and maybe even caricaturistic view of competition,

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Speaker 1: but in many ways that's what happens even in the

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Speaker 1: adult world. That is the world we live in.

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Speaker 2: And if our worth is tied up in our performance space,

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Speaker 2: then we are always going to be feeling.

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Speaker 1: Like we're intacting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because there is always there's always someone better.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'd start to teach her the value of serving rather

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Speaker 1: than winning. You can feel better about yourself helping other

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Speaker 1: people to shine, you can feel better about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Help you two year old walk up the stairs? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Can you help them to beat you? What kind of

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Speaker 1: a head start do they need? What kind of things

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Speaker 1: can you do to support them to become more confident themselves?

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Speaker 1: And the last thing that I was going to say

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Speaker 1: is just let her win. Let her win as much

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Speaker 1: as she wants. Who cares the playground and the horribleness

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Speaker 1: of life will teach her one way or another. But

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Speaker 1: the stakes are low at home, and she can have

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Speaker 1: a sough place to land at home, and you can

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Speaker 1: have lots of really good chats at home when all

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Speaker 1: this stuff happens. I think there's more value in letting

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Speaker 1: her learn to lose on purpose and letting her learn

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Speaker 1: to lose with a big heart and a desire to

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Speaker 1: serve and support and help others. I like to subvert

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Speaker 1: the idea that competition is going to be of benefit

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Speaker 1: to kids. But it's really hard to teach them that.

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Speaker 1: It takes years and lots and lots of chats. But

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Speaker 1: hopefully this has been helpful. Now do you want the

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Speaker 1: last word or should I have it?

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Speaker 2: What have you got for me?

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you called my bluff. I've got nothing.

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Speaker 1: I've said everything I had to say. You in you

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Speaker 1: keep on doing it to me, and now I feel bad,

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Speaker 1: But you feel good. Elition right there.

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Speaker 3: Good for you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad I get to help you shine. If

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Speaker 1: you've got a tricky question, get in touch with us.

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Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. Just go to

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Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot au and press the record

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Speaker 1: button start talking. It's our super simple system. Alternatively, you

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Speaker 1: can send us a voice note to podcasts at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot Au. Another tricky question coming up

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Speaker 1: next week tomorrow. Oh my goodness, an interview tomorrow that

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Speaker 1: I am so pumped for Professor Gene Twangy, one of

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Speaker 1: the world's leading experts on everything to do with kids

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Speaker 1: and tech and screens. And she's talking to me for

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Speaker 1: as much time as I could get out of her

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Speaker 1: to talk about her brand new book. Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be such a good one. Join us tomorrow

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Speaker 1: for that. Please, this will be one you do not

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Speaker 1: want to miss. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Nim Hammonds provides research, admin

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Speaker 1: and other support and if you'd like more info to

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Speaker 1: make your family happier and to help with the kind

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Speaker 1: of challenges that we discussed for Emma today. Please check

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Speaker 1: out my book What Your Child Needs from You or

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Speaker 1: Ten Things Every Parent Needs to Know. Both of those

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Speaker 1: will help you enormously with these kinds of challenges. You

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Speaker 1: can get them wherever books are sold, or at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot a