1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,480
Speaker 1: Just focusing on what we as a business can control,

2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: and focusing on what I personally can control and not

3
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,400
Speaker 1: what I can So I can't control that the tourism

4
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 1: industry is not hiring it all right now. Of course

5
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 1: they're not. Of course they're not. But what I can

6
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,639
Speaker 1: control is for industries that are that they're having a

7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: really good experience, that my team is checking in with

8
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,919
Speaker 1: our customers and making sure that we're doing all that

9
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: we can for them, and that we set up the

10
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,560
Speaker 1: internal processes and motivations that make that happen.

11
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,599
Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

12
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,080
Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so

13
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,880
Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba.

14
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

15
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,640
Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work. Date.

16
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 2: Before we get started on today's show, I just wanted

17
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:02,160
Speaker 2: to do a little call out for listener questions. I

18
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,240
Speaker 2: wanted to experiment with a new format on the Tuesday

19
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 2: episodes where I answer any questions that you, as a

20
00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 2: listener have on your mind about work and productivity and

21
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,000
Speaker 2: particularly this new world of work, so I'd love it

22
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 2: if you could send me through anything that's on your mind.

23
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,160
Speaker 2: My email address is Amantha at Inventium dot com dot

24
00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,679
Speaker 2: au and that's also in the.

25
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 3: Show notes, so I look forward to hearing from you.

26
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 2: Okay, let's get on to today's guest.

27
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 3: Who is Kendra Banks.

28
00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,640
Speaker 2: Kendra is the managing director for Australia and New Zealand

29
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,680
Speaker 2: at Seek and if you live in Australia you've probably

30
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 2: used sink at some point in your career and for

31
00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 2: overseas listeners. Seek is Australia's number one employment marketplace, which

32
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 2: Kendra heads up.

33
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,920
Speaker 3: So I loved catching up with Kendra.

34
00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:03,840
Speaker 2: She's such an inspiring female and really thinks deeply about

35
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: how to provide a great experience to employees during this

36
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 2: time of remote work.

37
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 3: So we talk about.

38
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 2: That, we talk about how her leadership team is making

39
00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,920
Speaker 2: decisions and as you can imagine as an employment website,

40
00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 2: it's been a pretty tumultuous few months thanks to COVID

41
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,799
Speaker 2: and the huge rise in unemployments, so I love getting

42
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 2: insight into how Kendra and her leadership team are making

43
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,239
Speaker 2: their most important decisions right now, and we cover a

44
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 2: stack of other things from homeschooling and juggling three kids

45
00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 2: and trying to work at the same time and even

46
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,640
Speaker 2: providing a limited cares leave. So on that note, let's

47
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,800
Speaker 2: head to Kendra to hear about how she works.

48
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,400
Speaker 3: Kendra, Welcome to the show.

49
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 4: Thank you great to be here. Thanks for having me.

50
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 3: Now to paint a picture.

51
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 2: And I've been starting all interviews this way during COVID.

52
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,640
Speaker 2: Can you tell me where you are and what level

53
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,240
Speaker 2: of lockdown or IO or not are you in?

54
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 4: Yes, so I can tell you.

55
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 1: I am in the suburbs of Melbourne and it is

56
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 1: the end of July twenty twenty, so we are in

57
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,480
Speaker 1: pretty much for lockdown. I am sitting at my chair

58
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 1: in my home office, where I've been sitting most days

59
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 1: for the past four and a half months, so looking

60
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:24,040
Speaker 1: out my window.

61
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 3: And so you've been working from home for a decent

62
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,639
Speaker 3: chunk of time. I'm about the same. I think I'm

63
00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 3: on about five months. And I want to.

64
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,320
Speaker 2: Know how has the way you approach your work on

65
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,400
Speaker 2: a day to day basis changed from making the shift

66
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,880
Speaker 2: from I would imagine like, were you in the office

67
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 2: almost one hundred percent of the time previously.

68
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 4: Yes, I was, so I work for a SEKH.

69
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 1: I run the Australia New Zealand businesses for SEKH and

70
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,640
Speaker 1: for those of your listeners who don't know, SEEKH is

71
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 1: a technology company for the recruitment industry and for job seekers,

72
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,480
Speaker 1: so we run job boards and recruitment technology, career advice,

73
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,440
Speaker 1: talent platforms, et cetera. So, being a technology company, were

74
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,119
Speaker 1: actually quite enabled to work from home, and a lot

75
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 1: of people at seek would work from home quite often,

76
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 1: but I personally didn't. As a people leader, I really

77
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,400
Speaker 1: like the kind of face to face, in person interaction

78
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,359
Speaker 1: of leading my team as individuals, as groups, as project teams,

79
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 1: et cetera. So I worked from home I don't know,

80
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,680
Speaker 1: maybe once every two or three months. And when I did,

81
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean I was literally sitting at the desk in

82
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,479
Speaker 1: my son's bedroom under his bunk bed. That was that

83
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,159
Speaker 1: was my home office setup prior to COVID. So when

84
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 1: COVID hit, the first thing I had to do was

85
00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,280
Speaker 1: set up a desk. So yeah, we've advanced on that

86
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,359
Speaker 1: front in the last last five months.

87
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:44,720
Speaker 4: For sure.

88
00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 3: That's good. Good to hear You've got a desk that

89
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 3: certainly helps. So yeah, I guess.

90
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,200
Speaker 2: Being a people leader how did you go about making

91
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 2: the transition from literally seeing everyone and presumably your team

92
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,880
Speaker 2: and the teams under those leaders pretty much every day

93
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,159
Speaker 2: to having no face to face contact, Like, how have

94
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,960
Speaker 2: you gone about I guess compensating for that loss?

95
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,920
Speaker 1: Well, like most organizations, we started off by pretty much

96
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,400
Speaker 1: transferring everything we were doing in person onto Zoom, and

97
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 1: we started off just replicating that exact same in off

98
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,719
Speaker 1: as schedule on Zoom. Now that meant we had still

99
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,840
Speaker 1: lots of virtual face to face contact, but we probably

100
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: weren't optimizing for a new kind of remote working setup

101
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,720
Speaker 1: because having a lot of one to ones in big

102
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,600
Speaker 1: meetings on Zoom it gets very tiring very quickly. That

103
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,159
Speaker 1: we all found that Zoom fatigue is very real, and

104
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,159
Speaker 1: also you're not really taking advantage of all the tools

105
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,680
Speaker 1: and different ways of working that being remote technology affords you.

106
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 2: So, what have been the biggest and most impactful changes

107
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:54,679
Speaker 2: that you've made on that front?

108
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 4: Then?

109
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say there are big changes. We've been optimizing

110
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,000
Speaker 1: kind of as we go, and probably that's the most

111
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 1: important changes that we check in every few weeks on

112
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 1: how we're going From a team. Rhythm's perspective is this

113
00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 1: still the do we still need this many meetings? Do

114
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: we need that meeting? Do we need another one? Which

115
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,839
Speaker 1: of our meetings could we be doing asynchronously using email

116
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:21,280
Speaker 1: or slack instead? Which check insul should we increase because

117
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,039
Speaker 1: we're seeing collaborations start to fade in certain areas, So

118
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 1: I'd say that that really regular retroing of how we're

119
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,320
Speaker 1: working has been critical. The other point I think is

120
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: just making everything shorter and sharper when it's on zoom,

121
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 1: so we'll do you know, it was a forty five

122
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,359
Speaker 1: minute check in, it moved to half an hour, it

123
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 1: moved to twenty minutes. Making everything as tight as tight

124
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,279
Speaker 1: as it it can be, to just give people, give

125
00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,080
Speaker 1: everyone a bit more flexibility in how they're managing their day.

126
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,479
Speaker 3: And how have you managed to tighten it?

127
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,359
Speaker 2: Like how do you go from a forty five minute

128
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,720
Speaker 2: meeting to a twenty minute meeting?

129
00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 1: Well, I think making them more frequent. So we found

130
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 1: shorter and more frequent has been better as a team

131
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,160
Speaker 1: being very specific about what we wanted to talk about

132
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,600
Speaker 1: with which group, when being a little bit more rigorous

133
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,440
Speaker 1: around well, what's the agenda for this meeting? Who needs

134
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 1: to be here, what aren't we going to discuss here?

135
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: And you know, fortunately we work in a very trusted

136
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,720
Speaker 1: collaborative environment, so with a team with higher levels of trust,

137
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 1: I think you can shortcut to the heart of an

138
00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 1: issue more quickly.

139
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 3: I love the idea of shorter meetings.

140
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 2: I was reading some research from Microsoft a couple of

141
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,800
Speaker 2: weeks ago that shows that at the thirty minute mark

142
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 2: in a video call like Zoom or whatever platform people

143
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 2: are using, that is when the brain starts to officially fatigue.

144
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 2: So I love that you've got them down to twenty minutes.

145
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 2: That would certainly be in line with the research.

146
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 4: And I wish it's not every meeting. That's a few

147
00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 4: of our meetings.

148
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 1: That research was fascinating and I think just so interesting

149
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,120
Speaker 1: because you know, we're learning more about how the brain

150
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: works when you're on Zoom and on calls like this

151
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 1: all the time, and it's not it's not optimal.

152
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,520
Speaker 2: It's not it's not and something else like do you

153
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,240
Speaker 2: can't remember that this was in some of Microsoft research,

154
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 2: but I've read it in other psych journals that one

155
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 2: of the things that make zoom calls more fatiguing is

156
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,240
Speaker 2: that most people don't hide the view of themselves. So

157
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 2: there's all this impression management going on, like looking at

158
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 2: how you're looking when you're talking, not from a vanity

159
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 2: point of view, but just kind of going, oh, do

160
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 2: I look oka my expressions okay?

161
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,239
Speaker 3: Inappropriate and so forth.

162
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 2: And I'm curious, like, do you hide yourself view on

163
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 2: video conferences?

164
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 4: No? I don't.

165
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,240
Speaker 1: I've read that same thing and maybe I should. One

166
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 1: of the things I actually find hardest as a leader

167
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 1: over the past few or have found hard over the

168
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,200
Speaker 1: past few months, is understanding how you're landing. So you know,

169
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 1: if I was doing an all staff meeting with you know,

170
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 1: say four or five hundred people in the room, we

171
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,840
Speaker 1: would do that in person. Yes, we might have some

172
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: people watching on zoom, but most people would be in

173
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,640
Speaker 1: the room. And so as you're explaining, you can kind

174
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 1: of see are people along with you, are they not

175
00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 1: along with you? Are they understanding? Do they look confused?

176
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 1: Do they look bored? And when you're doing big meetings

177
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 1: on zoom or a webinar, you have no idea, you know,

178
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 1: So I actually find I need to look at myself

179
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,880
Speaker 1: to I don't know, create some kind of energy, I guess,

180
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 1: and make sure that I'm coming across with energy and

181
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 1: to sort of self correct in some of these meetings

182
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,440
Speaker 1: because otherwise there's just no feedback loop.

183
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 2: That is really interesting, isn't it. How else have you

184
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,480
Speaker 2: compensated for that? Because I can completely relate. I do

185
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,080
Speaker 2: a lot of virtual keynotes speaking, and I mean previously

186
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 2: I or my keynotes were face to face and you get,

187
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 2: you know, live reactions from the audience, the things like

188
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 2: a joke's landing even but you have no idea when

189
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 2: it's when it's virtual. So are there other sort of

190
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,679
Speaker 2: tricks that you've been using to get a sense as

191
00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,840
Speaker 2: to how things are landing and the reaction that you're getting.

192
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,080
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things it's I'm not sure it's

193
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: a trick we've used, but it's something we've found is

194
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,720
Speaker 1: we use the slide oh app or website for questions

195
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 1: for Q and A during an all staff meeting. And

196
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,680
Speaker 1: whereas when we started using slider where you can post

197
00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 1: questions anonymously, it was very much a pure questions list.

198
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,560
Speaker 1: What we found over the past few months is it's

199
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,920
Speaker 1: almost becoming like a comment feed of the meeting, so

200
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,480
Speaker 1: people will say things like, oh, really liked that point

201
00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:25,960
Speaker 1: you made.

202
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:26,679
Speaker 4: About that or.

203
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,400
Speaker 1: Interesting, still wondering about X y Z. So it's a

204
00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,559
Speaker 1: little bit hard to kind of watch that live feed

205
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: while you're presenting in the meeting, but that has created

206
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:44,680
Speaker 1: some feedback in those big webinar type sessions. The dangerous

207
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,320
Speaker 1: side is then sometimes anonymously people will write something not

208
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 1: so nice, and you know that can get you a

209
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,600
Speaker 1: bit off track as you're presenting. So we're trying to

210
00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,600
Speaker 1: manage what's the way to create a feedback leap during

211
00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 1: those meetings without sending them down rabbit hole or taking

212
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: them off track.

213
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

214
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,079
Speaker 2: I find the chatbox function in zoom just critical whenever

215
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: I'm doing virtual keynotes, and yeah, I encourage people to

216
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,599
Speaker 2: just taste, you know, comment on what you're thinking or

217
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,120
Speaker 2: if I haven't explained something clearly, just ask as.

218
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:14,560
Speaker 3: I go along.

219
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is tricky though to kind of monitor that

220
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,559
Speaker 2: and stay on point and on message. But yeah, I

221
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 2: like the sound of what you're doing and using slide

222
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,640
Speaker 2: over that. Yeah, similar function to zoom chat absolutely, Yeah, exactly.

223
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,080
Speaker 2: I want to come back to what you said about

224
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:34,319
Speaker 2: how you're doing regular retros of essentially reviewing how you're

225
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,439
Speaker 2: working and whether you've got like the right frequency the

226
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,880
Speaker 2: right duration of you know, meetings and catch ups and

227
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,440
Speaker 2: so forth. Can you take me through, like specifically what

228
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,440
Speaker 2: happens in one of those retros, Like is there almost

229
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 2: like an agenda of specific questions that you're asking or

230
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 2: is it more organic than that? And is this like

231
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,520
Speaker 2: with your team of direct reports. I'd love to kind

232
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 2: of get some more details there.

233
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 1: Sure, So it's with my team of direct reports and

234
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,800
Speaker 1: also really in every team through the business. So being

235
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,439
Speaker 1: a software engineering business at our core, we use a

236
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 1: lot of the agile methodologies and retros are you know,

237
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,280
Speaker 1: I think have come from that that kind of agile

238
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 1: methodology world. So what we would do in person is

239
00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,679
Speaker 1: make it it was very unstructured, you know, the board

240
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 1: with post it notes, what's going well, what could be improved,

241
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,120
Speaker 1: ideas for the future, kind of stick up the post

242
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 1: it notes and then group them up and discuss. Just yesterday,

243
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 1: in fact, with my direct reports, we were running a

244
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,240
Speaker 1: retro and we use Miro, which has a post it

245
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 1: note type functionality, so we could replicate that approach to

246
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 1: retros very easily through Miro.

247
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,600
Speaker 4: Yesterday, we did ask specific questions.

248
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,359
Speaker 1: They were about how because we were kind of reviewing

249
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,200
Speaker 1: the financial year. What were our achievements during the year.

250
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,880
Speaker 1: What was disappointing as a team? How are we working

251
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 1: well together as a team. What could we be doing

252
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 1: differently when we look ahead to the next year. What

253
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,400
Speaker 1: are going to be the key elements that drive success

254
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,680
Speaker 1: for us? So sometimes will use specific questions, other times

255
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 1: will make it much more general. What's going well? What

256
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 1: could be better?

257
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 2: I want to ask more from an individual perspective. Now

258
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 2: that you are so far into working from home and

259
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,679
Speaker 2: that's like a complete one eighty for you, what are

260
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 2: some of the things that you're finding useful in terms

261
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 2: of your own productivity and your own energy levels? Like

262
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,800
Speaker 2: are there certain rituals or routines that you've incorporated into

263
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,520
Speaker 2: incorporated into your day? Like what's serving you right now?

264
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. It's been changing a lot

265
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 1: through the past few months, depending on what's happening with school.

266
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,160
Speaker 1: So I have three kids, they're five, ten, and twelve,

267
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,720
Speaker 1: and depending on whether they're on school holidays or homeschooling

268
00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,480
Speaker 1: or at school, all three of which have happened in

269
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,199
Speaker 1: the last five months and then gone back again, that

270
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 1: drives what the house is like. So you know what

271
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 1: the consistent pieces for me are creating a really clear

272
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 1: dividing line between when I'm at home and when I'm

273
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,280
Speaker 1: at work, and using this office space I've created as

274
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,719
Speaker 1: a this is my this is my territory. Kids, you're

275
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,839
Speaker 1: not allowed in unless you knock kind of routine. And

276
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,320
Speaker 1: that also has helped me psychologically. So when I'm in

277
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: the office, I'm in the office at work, and when

278
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 1: I am not physically in the office, I am at

279
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 1: home with the family, with the kids. So that psychological

280
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 1: dividing line is helpful. I've also been, you know, like

281
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people, I think, trying to force myself

282
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 1: outdoors every day, just getting the fresh air, having a walk,

283
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 1: clearing the head. I probably didn't realize how much commuting

284
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 1: and being at the office and going out for lunch

285
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,160
Speaker 1: or going out to get a coffee gives you the

286
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 1: opportunity to be outdoors and in the fresh air. And

287
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 1: if I don't force myself outside, I can actually sit,

288
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 1: you know, within my office and go back and forth

289
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 1: to the kitchen in the bathroom and not go anywhere

290
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 1: else for nine hours straight. So I really need to

291
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,320
Speaker 1: make sure I build in those breaks and as much

292
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,000
Speaker 1: as possible to try to take them outside.

293
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 2: And I'm curious with almost like training your children about

294
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 2: the boundaries.

295
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 3: How have you done that?

296
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,920
Speaker 2: Like, I've got a six and a half year old

297
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,800
Speaker 2: at home, and I'm lucky that I've got some help,

298
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 2: but i don't know, like how respectful she's going to

299
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,600
Speaker 2: be a boundary. It's like, for example, right now, as

300
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 2: we're recording this, she's upstairs doing virtual schooling with the

301
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 2: most wonderful nanny Tudor that is helping me out, and

302
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 2: I've just said to them, Hey, I'm recording an interview,

303
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 2: so just try to stay out of the studio.

304
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 3: Between eleven and twelve. And I think that's going to

305
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 3: be fine.

306
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 2: But if it was frankly on her own, I'm sure

307
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 2: i'd get an important question about her toy lion or

308
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 2: unicorn or something some emergency like that.

309
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 1: Yes, And look, that's part of the benefit and joy

310
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 1: of being at home, right is that you can have

311
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,680
Speaker 1: those little interactions during the day. So you know, when

312
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 1: I say there's a kind of boundary, you know they

313
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 1: are allowed to come in, and they do. They do

314
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 1: so a bit respectfully and they try to be quiet

315
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 1: when they when they walk in because they know that

316
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 1: mum's on a meeting or mum's on a call. So

317
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,320
Speaker 1: I've tried to set this that, you know, maybe every

318
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: week there's one or two meetings. I really don't want

319
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 1: anyone to come in, you know, if I'm presenting to

320
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,160
Speaker 1: the board or you know, this this podcast for example,

321
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 1: I really don't want to be disturbed, and then I'll really,

322
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,680
Speaker 1: I'll put a sticker on the door. Otherwise, you know,

323
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 1: if they come in, that's kind of fine. It's it's

324
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 1: it's one of the nice things about this forced remote

325
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 1: working as we're all getting a little bit of an

326
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: insight into each other's personal and home lives, which just

327
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 1: humanizes everybody.

328
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:37,320
Speaker 4: I think.

329
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 3: I know, I've really enjoyed that as well.

330
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 2: And I want to know, like, in terms of almost

331
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 2: like chunking out your day, particularly during homeschooling, have you

332
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 2: started to develop different rhythms where you'll be doing some

333
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 2: work and then some homeschooling or time with the kids

334
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 2: and then work again, or you sort of still you know, Okay,

335
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 2: I'm at work for the next eight night hours and

336
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 2: then I'm you know, back to being a mountain.

337
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

338
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 1: I've been lucky in the since that my husband has

339
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 1: been doing more of the homeschool support, so I have

340
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 1: been able to just lock myself and say, I'm working.

341
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 1: You know, these are my work hours. But that's I

342
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 1: would say, been the exception, not the norm for most

343
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 1: people I'm working with. And it's been interesting how we

344
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 1: have had to adapt our business working rhythms around that,

345
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,960
Speaker 1: because it's just not if somebody is trying to homeschool,

346
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,679
Speaker 1: it's just not possible to work at the same time.

347
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 1: And I think at the beginning maybe some people thought

348
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: they could kind of do both in parallel. Oh, we'll

349
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 1: just sit my child next to me. I'm sure it's

350
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,920
Speaker 1: going to be fine. They'll just get on with their work.

351
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:49,159
Speaker 1: It clearly has not been so, you know, for some

352
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,359
Speaker 1: people it's hit not that hard, like for me because

353
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 1: my husband's helping a lot. For other people, maybe their

354
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 1: kids are older and much more self sufficient and it

355
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 1: hasn't been really impacting their day today, some people this

356
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 1: has been just enormously disruptive to their ability to work

357
00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 1: from home. And actually, as a team, we have had

358
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,760
Speaker 1: to as a business, we've been spending a lot of

359
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: time prioritizing around that because for people's well being, their

360
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 1: mental health, their well being. Expecting them to homeschool and

361
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,119
Speaker 1: be as exactly productive as they were without homeschool is

362
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,200
Speaker 1: not good. And if you want to keep somebody happy,

363
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,119
Speaker 1: motivated and able to cope with life, putting pressure on

364
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,199
Speaker 1: them to deliver at the same rate as they were

365
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 1: before homeschool is not the right approach. So we've been

366
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 1: telling people we have a carers leave policy. We've made

367
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,920
Speaker 1: that basically unlimited during this COVID time. If you need

368
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: to take cares leave, whether it's half a day, a

369
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,400
Speaker 1: couple hours here, a day, a full week, just take

370
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 1: it because we would rather you focus on what's important

371
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,240
Speaker 1: to you and then when you're able to work, focus

372
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:56,680
Speaker 1: on work.

373
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 3: Wow. That is amazing. So unlimited care isly Wow.

374
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 2: I don't think I've come across any other companies in

375
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 2: Australia doing that, not that I.

376
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,080
Speaker 1: Know of whether companies are saying it or not. I

377
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: think for a lot of people, it's just sort of

378
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 1: become reality because you just can't. It is just not

379
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 1: possible to do both at the same time. And I

380
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: think that's what this whole lockdown situation is teaching all

381
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: of us. We knew it right, anybody who's tried to

382
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: have carrying responsibilities and work at the same time has known,

383
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,480
Speaker 1: but this has made it very obvious.

384
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely, And for those that aren't taking cares leave

385
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 2: but are kind of trying to juggle homeschool and work,

386
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,399
Speaker 2: are there strategies that you've heard are working for people

387
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 2: or even a there's strategies that you're using as a

388
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 2: leader within the business to help people kind of get

389
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 2: through this very crazy time.

390
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 1: We've been really trying to help people feel successful at

391
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: what they do. So if you're trying to homeschool and

392
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 1: care and work at the same time, you feel unsuccessful

393
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,359
Speaker 1: at all three. So some people have divided up their days.

394
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,360
Speaker 1: Maybe they spend a couple hours in the morning focusing

395
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: on homeschool and then they work for a good four

396
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 1: hour chunk and in that time somebody else looks after

397
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 1: the kids, or you know, the kids have a bit

398
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 1: more screen time than perhaps they did in the past.

399
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,440
Speaker 1: Whatever works for that family. So, you know, I think

400
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 1: probably the more, the more deliberate chunking up of the

401
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 1: day is what's helping helping a lot of people.

402
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that sounds very sensible, and I mean, look,

403
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 2: there is so much stress and I imagine for you,

404
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 2: like given what Seeks business is, is that like Seek

405
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 2: is thriving when there's lots of employment opportunities going on,

406
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 2: and obviously that's not going so well at the moment

407
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: in Australia.

408
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 3: I imagine it must.

409
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 2: Have been a very stressful few months for you. How

410
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 2: have you gone personally about managing the stress and uncertainty

411
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: given the business that Seek is in and given you

412
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 2: your leading this company.

413
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 1: Yes, well it's it has been a roller coaster, that's

414
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: for sure. So when COVID hit, you know, the easiest

415
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 1: way to track what's happening on our business is just

416
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 1: the number of job ads on the site, and the

417
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: job ads on the website fell by about seventy percent

418
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: within a matter of two weeks, so it's really really dramatic.

419
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: But then that was in April and since then we

420
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,199
Speaker 1: have seen a steady, steady improvement and actually in some

421
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: areas we bounce back quite quickly. So I think there's

422
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: some parts of the economy where they actually let go

423
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: of people very quickly and are now having to hire

424
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: back quickly. So now we're tracking at about thirty percent

425
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: below where we were pre COVID, So that's obviously still

426
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 1: not ideal from an economic perspective, but it's not it's

427
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: it's not that dire number we saw in April. The

428
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: flip side of that is our purpose as a business

429
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: is to help people live more fulfilling and productive working lives,

430
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 1: and if we look at it from the job seeker perspective,

431
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: what we're doing is more sortant than ever right now.

432
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: So we've been really motivated by the role that we

433
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 1: play in helping the labor market work and in helping

434
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: job seekers stand out find the right role for them

435
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: consider different careers. That's another area we've been focusing on recently.

436
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: And while our hiring activity is down, that side of

437
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 1: our marketplace is unfortunately stronger than ever.

438
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

439
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: It's kind of nice to hear about you connecting it

440
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 2: back to purpose. I think one of the biggest questions

441
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 2: I've been getting from clients and just people connecting with

442
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: me is about losing motivation to you know, kind of

443
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 2: get up and do their job and you know, go

444
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: to work, that kind of thing, go to work.

445
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 3: But it's interesting, I think.

446
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 2: Like, you know, one of the easiest things theoretically is

447
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 2: to go, Okay, we'll just reconnect back to either your

448
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: company's purpose hopefully that resonates and hopefully you are working

449
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: for a purpose driven organization, or to reconnect back to

450
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: your own purpose and your own values, which again hopefully

451
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: people are at least sort of somewhat in touch.

452
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: With absolutely And that's just so we have really we

453
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: have really leaned on our purpose and seeks very purpose driven,

454
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: and we're also very people focused. And this has been

455
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: a really hard time for all of our people, for everybody,

456
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: not just Seeks people, everybody, and so particularly for leaders,

457
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: but also just as anyone in the business. To look

458
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: after each other has become a bigger part of everybody's

459
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: stay today. And that's that's also I think driven, driven

460
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: motivation and driven support over the last few months.

461
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: It's really nice to hear I want to know for

462
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 2: you because I imagine you must have days like where

463
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: you're like, oh my goodness, how like works works really

464
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 2: hard and stressful at the moment, Like how do you

465
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 2: overcome those feelings when you're just.

466
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 3: Kind of not having a great day or not having

467
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 3: a great morning.

468
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 4: Well, look, I mean I get a lot of energy

469
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 4: from work.

470
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: I really enjoy my job, I enjoy the team love

471
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: working for SEK and the purpose that we have, and

472
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: so I do remind myself of that, and you have

473
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: to put things in perspective. You know, there's people across

474
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: Australia and across the world right now who are literally

475
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: trying to save lives right there are people with much

476
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: more dramatically stressful jobs than I have right now. So

477
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: I think a bit of perspective is quite useful. But

478
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: then within that, just focusing on what we as a

479
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: business can control, and focusing on what I personally can

480
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: control and not what I can So I can't control

481
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: that the tourism industry is not hiring it all right now.

482
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: Of course they're not. Of course they're not. But what

483
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: I can control is for industries that are that they're

484
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: having a really good experience, that my team is checking

485
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: in with our customers and making sure that we're doing

486
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: all that we can for them, and that we set

487
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: up the internal processes and motivations that make that happen.

488
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 3: I think that's so good to remember.

489
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 2: Just like in psychology, psychologists talk about people having an

490
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 2: internal locus of control or an external locus of control,

491
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: either sort of seeing things within your life as you know,

492
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 2: within your control or seeing things as happening to you.

493
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: And I certainly think, you know, the more people can

494
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: shift having that internal locus of control in terms of

495
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: how they see their work right now when the rest

496
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: of the world there's so much uncertainty that you know,

497
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: really no one can predict what is going to happen.

498
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: That it's it's a pretty good way to stay engaged

499
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: and energized, that's for sure.

500
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

501
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: And the other thing I find, which you might as solve,

502
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: you if you have a six year old, small children

503
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: are very good for distraction, right, Well, if you want,

504
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: you know, I can go spend a few minutes with

505
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: my youngest. Here's five, and he the biggest problem he

506
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: was having the other day was he wanted to put

507
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: socks on his truck. Do trucks thro sucks? Not normally,

508
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: So this was not a very This is not an

509
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: easy problem to solve. You know, we solved it. We

510
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: put sight on that truck.

511
00:25:58,359 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

512
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: The problem I was given to solve this morning is, Mom,

513
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 2: can we make a plane today that will fly? And

514
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: I said, oh, yeah, Like, let's go to the office

515
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: and get some paper. We'll make a paper plan. She said, no, Mum,

516
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: that can fly us like a real one off the ground,

517
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: and can we do that before breakfast?

518
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: Please?

519
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 4: Very good.

520
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: If you succeed in that today, can I come over

521
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: it and then we can just all go for it

522
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: and go somewhere.

523
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 4: That would be great.

524
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 2: I know I'll keep you posting. Something I read when

525
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: I was researching with this podcast is you've said that

526
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: you've deliberately tended to choose the riskier path, and I

527
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 2: think you know, sort of relating to your career, and

528
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: I wanted to know, I guess, an example of that,

529
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: or maybe a couple of examples of that, and.

530
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 3: How you have gone about.

531
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: Doing that, because I'd say that that probably doesn't come

532
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: naturally to a lot of people.

533
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: Yes, so I've spoken about taking a risk your path,

534
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: and as you say, largely around my own career, and

535
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: that's always been for me because I think I'm quite

536
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: an ambitious, career driven person and the riskier usually takes

537
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: you further. And so the challenge is that is obviously,

538
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: how do you create confidence in taking the risky path

539
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: and how do you kind of control that worry because

540
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, you start to question yourself, are you're making

541
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: the wrong decision or you're going to fail. What happens

542
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: if I fail? Et cetera. That's the kind of the

543
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: mental game you need to play with the with taking

544
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: a riskier path. To share a couple of examples, some

545
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: of them are not positive examples, and actually I think

546
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: the less positive examples are ones that built my confidence

547
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: more so. For example, I started my career in strategy consulting,

548
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: and I had worked with a big nonprofit organization as

549
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: a client, and I thought that I wanted to work

550
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: in the not for profit world.

551
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 4: And I went to.

552
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: Work for that client, a big, big NGO, and sort

553
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: of through the twelve to eighteen months that I was there,

554
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: I had this like gradual realization just wasn't the right

555
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: place for me. And so after about eighteen months, I left,

556
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: and it took me a really long time to find

557
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: the next job. I looked back on that decision, and

558
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: you know, I could beat myself up about that decision,

559
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: but it was actually because I had made that wrong

560
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: decision that I felt more confident in the next decision

561
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: I made.

562
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 4: You know, I knew that that wasn't the path for me.

563
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: And therefore, even though and that had been a risk

564
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: to take that path, but because it wasn't the right path,

565
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: I knew much more clearly what the right path was.

566
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: And you know, the next place I ended up worked

567
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: really well. I thrived, stayed there a long time. So

568
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe because that was early in my career

569
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: and I made a not great decision but made it

570
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: through to the other side, that built my confidence that

571
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: it's okay to make the wrong decision. You know, a

572
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: career is not a one way path. You can always

573
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: take a step back, you can always take a different turn.

574
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: Getting something wrong actually can help you build your confidence

575
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: more in which what the right direction is?

576
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: What did you learn about decision making?

577
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: Like how do you make those big decisions for yourself now,

578
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: like presumably in a completely different way to how you did,

579
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, back.

580
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: When you took that job early in your career.

581
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: I think I've probably learned to ask for help a

582
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: lot more. And when I say ask for help, I

583
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: mean just getting different perspectives on a decision. So you know,

584
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: for example, I'm part of a network of other tech

585
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: business leaders from a lot of US based leaders or

586
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: some others from international and we meet monthly to discuss

587
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: different questions and that could be a business question or

588
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: a personal question or strategic question, and quite often people

589
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: bring personal career decisions to that group just to talk

590
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: through and get different perspectives on whether what people think

591
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: of that move, what would be the upside, what would

592
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: be the downside, what would be the risks of that?

593
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, obviously there's no one right

594
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: choice in a career. It depends on the situation, it

595
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: depends on you know what's right for you as an individual,

596
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: and sore for me, hearing lots of different perspectives on

597
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: decisions has made a big difference. And when I've had

598
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: turning points, when I've had to make big decisions in

599
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: the last five or ten years about my career, I

600
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: have reached out to as many people as I could

601
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: who I thought would have an interesting point of view

602
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: on that decision, either because they knew me, or because

603
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: they knew they'd been in a similar role or they'd

604
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: faced a similar turning point, And just collecting those perspectives

605
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: I've found really helpful.

606
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: I can definitely relate to that.

607
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 2: I think it's such a big one to try to

608
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: remove emotion from the decision, and one of the places

609
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: where I got that piece of advice from my favorite

610
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: book on decision making that I've read, called Decisive by

611
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: Chip and Dan Heath, and they say, you know, think

612
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: about how you can remove emotion from decision because typically

613
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: if you're feeling quite a motive about a decision, you

614
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: tend to make worse decisions. And you know, something like career,

615
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: I mean that triggers all sorts of emotions for people

616
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: making a big career move. So I love the idea

617
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: of sourcing other people's points of view because they simply

618
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: won't have the emotional attachment that you have. And then

619
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: I guess another strategy something I've used occasionally is you know, if,

620
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: for example, like they just aren't people that you can

621
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: ask for advice, maybe it's a highly confidential decision or

622
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: something like that. Is to say, well, if my best

623
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: friend or if this leader that I respect were faced

624
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: with this decision, what would they do in this situation?

625
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: And I found that a very helpful question to ask.

626
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 4: That is a great question.

627
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: I love that idea of taking out the emotion, and

628
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: I think that that even applies in business decisions. Right,

629
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: So you can be quite wetted people as individuals get

630
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: quite wetted to the things they've worked on for a

631
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: long time, and maybe you know a project isn't going

632
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: that well, but it's hard to let go because you

633
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: actually feel quite emotional about the work that you've done

634
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: and the commitment you've put into it and how hard

635
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: you've worked for it, even though the rational business decision

636
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: could be to stop or change or modify it quite dramatically.

637
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: So I'm a really big believer in having lots of

638
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: different points of view on any decision, as much as

639
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: you can do that in your personal life, but also

640
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: from a business perspective, And I'm wondering.

641
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: With the decisions that you have to make as a

642
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: leadership team, like, are there strategies that you would deliberately

643
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: use to make better decisions or try to remove emotion

644
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: from some of the big decisions, because I would imagine,

645
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: like during March and April there would have been some

646
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: very emotional decisions to make as a business.

647
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: There were, yeah, and look some of them were a

648
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: lot of them were around our people in terms of

649
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: how quickly we were going to mandate working from home,

650
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: and we ended up going more on the earlier side

651
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: of businesses to say no, you know, everyone just work

652
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: from home. This is very uncertain, let's see what's panning out.

653
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: But also how we dealt with our customers. So on

654
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: the hiring side, we've One of the key decisions we

655
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: had was around how much support we give to customers

656
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: who have pre purchased advertising packages with us, So they

657
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: would have said, oh, you know, across the next year,

658
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: we're going to hire five hundred people, so we'll buy

659
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: this kind of level of investment with you. Now for

660
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: a lot of those customers, that five hundred dropped to

661
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: nearly zero, you know, overnight, and so how we dealt

662
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: with that was really important. Probably the key approach we

663
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: use in making decisions, which was relevant there, but I

664
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: think is relevant for other decisions as well, is setting

665
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: up what are the principles we're using to make this

666
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: decision and which are the most important. So in that case,

667
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: we had different factors to look at. We had obviously

668
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: a financial factor. If we were going to refund customers

669
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: a lot of money, that was going to be a

670
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: significant financial impact. We had are we looking short term

671
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: or long term? Is it better to keep the long

672
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: term loyalty or of a customer or the short term

673
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: financial gain? What are our competitors doing, and what you know,

674
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: if we're in our customer's shoes, what would we want

675
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: to see? And we decided that our most important principle

676
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: there was we wanted to be proactive with whatever we offered.

677
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: We didn't want to have customers coming to us and asking.

678
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: We wanted to be proactive. And once we decided that principle,

679
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 1: that forced everything else into place. There's only so many

680
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: things we can do proactively. There's only so many things

681
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: we can do quickly and simply. And if we wanted

682
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: to err on the side of generosity because we'd rather

683
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: keep the customer for the long term, then actually there

684
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: was only a handful of options that would even make sense.

685
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: So we were able to kind of narrow down a

686
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: very complex, ambiguous question about how we were going to

687
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: support our customers to a narrower set of options that

688
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: we could look at and make a decision quickly.

689
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: And in terms of deciding on what those principles are

690
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: and how much each of them will be weighted, is

691
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 2: that a group decision or is that something you'd think

692
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: about before harnessing the collective wisdom of the group to

693
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: make a decision.

694
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: We'd probably you know, there'd probably be one or two

695
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: people who would lead the structuring up of that thinking,

696
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: but then we would take it to to a group.

697
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: So in that case, it would have been my leadership team,

698
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: but also in consultation with you know, our finance team

699
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: and executive leadership. Because it was a big, big decision,

700
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: very symbolic decision in terms of how we relate to

701
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: our customers. But I think it helps for one or

702
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: two people to kind of structure up, well, this is

703
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: how we're thinking about it, and then you've got kind

704
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: of a straw man for everyone to look at and

705
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: debate and discuss, just to keep things flowing quickly.

706
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 2: I want to move on to just general career advice

707
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: because I feel like people that have got, you know,

708
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: become really successful in their career have often received a

709
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: lot of great pieces of advice along the way. And

710
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: I want to know, what are some of the most impactful,

711
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: insightful pieces of advice that you've received over your career.

712
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 4: M I think it's such a good question.

713
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: And and do you know, I actually think of both

714
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: the best advice I've gotten and some of the worst

715
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: advice I've gotten.

716
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: Oh yes, excellent.

717
00:35:59,480 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 4: Tell me.

718
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: Some of the I mean, the best, probably the very

719
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: the most impactful, best piece of advice I had was

720
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: when I was trying to be I had been in

721
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: strategy function for some time and really wanted to move

722
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: into more of an operational function. And this was kind

723
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: of early two thousands, and somebody advised that I move

724
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: into digital marketing because digital was going to be big.

725
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: You know, this is when like Google advertising was kind

726
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: of just getting started and nobody really understood how it worked.

727
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, we just kind of need somebody

728
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: who's pretty numerus and can figure stuff out to figure

729
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: out how we should use this Google tool.

730
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 4: Okay, why not?

731
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: Like but that was awesome advice, right obviously set me

732
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: on a path to a very very very big industry

733
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: that then I was able to grow my own career in.

734
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, more more broadly, I think

735
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: a good piece of career advice that I've received and

736
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: heard is to, you know, to be in sectors and

737
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: businesses that are growing, because as there is growth in

738
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: a sector and growth in a business, that creates opportunities

739
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: and you can grow along with that business or that sector.

740
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: And having been in digital for twenty ish years, that's

741
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: been a lot a big part of the story of

742
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: my own career. Other great career advice I've had has

743
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: been around different jobs. You know, if you say to somebody, oh,

744
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: I'd really like to be in this role one day

745
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 1: or in that role one day, the advice needs to be, well,

746
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: this is very specifically what the hiring manager for that

747
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: job is going to be looking for, you know, and

748
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: to be really specific about it, because quite often we say, oh, yeah,

749
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, you could stretch into that job one day, definitely,

750
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: and it's kind of vague. But you know, when the

751
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: rubber hits the road and you're sitting in that interview,

752
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: is the hiring manager going to hire you or is

753
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: there going to be somebody who takes more boxes. In

754
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: terms of some of the worst advice, you know, I

755
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: think working parents, and in particular working mothers over the years,

756
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: get a lot of very bad advice from well meaning people.

757
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: The worst advice I ever had was oh, well, now

758
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: that you're having your second child, you probably want to

759
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: come back to a job that's a little bit less demanding.

760
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: Fortunately I didn't take that advice because I had more

761
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: confidence in myself than that. But I think there's a

762
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: lot of assumptions made about how parents want to drive

763
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: their careers, which can be can be detrimental. It is

764
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: something I watch for a lot.

765
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. I haven't thought about that one before.

766
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 2: And I feel like that is great advice to parents.

767
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: And you know, let's face particularly mothers that are listening,

768
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: because that advice is so prevalent, isn't it.

769
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: It's very prevalent. And look, that's not to say that

770
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: parents coming back to work many of that. You make

771
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: your own choice about what's right for you, right, It's

772
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: not that slowing down is the wrong choice. It's that

773
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: to assume that slowing down is the choice for everybody

774
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: is wrong. Equally, to assume that staying in a similar

775
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: career path is the right decision for everybody is also wrong.

776
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: But how do you enable people to look at what's

777
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: really important for them and to make choices that keep

778
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 1: their options open. If they want to have more options,

779
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: or if they're very set, then they can go on

780
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: a path that works for them. I think quite often,

781
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: at least over the past twenty years, I have heard

782
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: advice given to me and to other working parents that

783
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: I think boxes them in.

784
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 3: And on the topic of advice. You mentioned this tech

785
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 3: leaders group that sounds like a global group. It's interesting.

786
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: I'm part of a similar group, which is we're actually

787
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: all Melbourne based female founders slash CEOs of businesses in

788
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: completely different industries. There's a few tech companies, a few manufacturings.

789
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 3: It's very broad.

790
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: There's about nine or ten of us and we meet

791
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: once a month. And now that the rhythm's kind of

792
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: changed a little bit thanks to COVID. We used to

793
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: meet face to face once a month and we had

794
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: a very set structure and still do of how we

795
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: run that group. So basically we would go around the

796
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: table and now virtual table. We would each do essentially

797
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 2: a three minute check in where we'd talk about the

798
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: top and bottom five percent of our life, So what

799
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: are the best things and the worst things from a

800
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: work and personal point of view, and also are there

801
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: any problems, challenges, things that we want the Brains Trust's advice,

802
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: opinions ideas on.

803
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 3: And then we'd kind of divvy.

804
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 2: Up the rest of the time, which was typically it

805
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: was a three hour meeting when we're doing face to face,

806
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: but that's shorter now, and then we'd each kind of

807
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 2: generally take the role of facilitator and then we'd divvy

808
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: up time and go around the room and everyone would

809
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 2: give their sort of their ideas and input. And group's

810
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: been running now for I want to say, three or

811
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: four years. It's quite an amazing group. I like love

812
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: it and look forward to sounds fantastic. It's awesome, And

813
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: so I'm curious around your group. How does it run,

814
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: you know, because obviously that would be solely remote I

815
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: imagine if a lot of the people are faced in

816
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: the US.

817
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: Yes, so it's we catch up for an hour on

818
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: zoom once a month, so it's much much shorter. Occasionally

819
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: people will come, will send a question in advance. Let's

820
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm really struggling with this question. I'd love to discuss it.

821
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: Or it's kind of like quick round robin at the

822
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: beginning of the hour. What are the top things, top

823
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: things on your mind that you would value others perspectives on.

824
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously in the last few months it's

825
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: been all about COVID and all about workplace culture when

826
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: it's remote, and how do you deal with the disruption

827
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: and the shifts in the world. You know, I think

828
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: that that top five percent bottom five percent is a

829
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: really great way of surfacing what's on people's minds, because

830
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: sometimes you say what's going well, what's not going well?

831
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: And that's really kind of vague, and you know, can

832
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: go on forever. But top five percent is the real

833
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: winners and bottom five percent is the real issues. That's

834
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: a I like that. I might bring that to our

835
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: group as well.

836
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: And can I ask, you know, I guess, off the

837
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 2: top of your head, have there been sort of interesting

838
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: insights or pieces of advice that have stuck with you

839
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: from that group during the period of COVID when you know,

840
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: everything's kind of gone really strange.

841
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: It's gone really strange, to be honest, because a lot

842
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: of them are US based, and the situation in the

843
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: US from a health and government perspective is very different.

844
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: A lot of it has been very it's been interesting

845
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: to hear. It's been much less relevant for the Australian experience.

846
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: There's a lot more people who are much closer to

847
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: family members or friends who are very sick or in

848
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: many cases dying from COVID in the US than there

849
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: are here. But beyond that difference, I think we're all

850
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: really interested in how do you keep a culture, an

851
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: organizational culture alive when you're all remote all of a sudden.

852
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: So even businesses that were remote first before COVID would

853
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: still get together every few months, you know, to have

854
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: in person social interactions. So what are fun ways to

855
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: have in person social interactions on Zoom? Yesterday my team

856
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 1: was playing pictionary online. That was actually really good fun.

857
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: We enjoyed that. I've heard somebody on the call the

858
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: other week said, there's a farm that has lamas and

859
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: you can pay them like twenty bucks and they'll have

860
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: a lama join your Zoom meeting for an hour. You know,

861
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: there's musicians who you can you know, are trying to

862
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: sell their services and will join you and play music

863
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: for you for an hour on your Zoom. You know

864
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: you can you can have rate them. You know, celebrities

865
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: will again. Uh, you know, people are looking for any opportunity, right,

866
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 1: you can pay celebrity to pop into your zoom meeting

867
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: for half an hour. Yeah, just silly things, but I

868
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: think you know it's seek. It's something we're definitely really

869
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: thinking about, is how do we make that those cultural

870
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: connections stay alive when we're not going to see each

871
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: other often For some some long period of time.

872
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely, And I'm looking at the time and

873
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 2: we are like we are out of time.

874
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 3: Soay, look. My last my last question for you is

875
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: for for people that want to connect with Seek and

876
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 3: or connect with yourself in some way, what is the

877
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 3: best way for people to do that?

878
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 4: Oh?

879
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: Absolutely, reach out to me Kbanks at Seek dot com

880
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: dot au. I'm always happy to hear from otherose with

881
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: ideas and thoughts and or on all the normal social channels.

882
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: Fantastic, fantastic, Kendra. I've love chatting to you and just

883
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: getting insight into your ways of working.

884
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: It's been fascinating. So thank you so much for your time.

885
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, it was great.

886
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: That is it for today's show.

887
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: If you are enjoying how I work, I'd love it

888
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: if you could take a moment to leave a review

889
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 2: in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this from.

890
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: It's awesome getting listener feedback. It really does bring a

891
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: smile to my face when new reviews posted.

892
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 3: So thank you to everyone that's done that.

893
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 2: And that is it for today's show and I will

894
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: see you next time.