WEBVTT - 18: Unlawful Killing 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:06.360 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:11.760 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:18.960 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:29.319 lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:35.880 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:45.200 mom bags pack car running her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.040 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:50.640 to grab something. Panic. 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.199 Amy is dead, sir By Amy's Dead? 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:54.560 Eight Confusion World. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.120 About five minutes they said, N's a suicide. 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:57.840 One hundred percent. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:00:59.240 This is immersing. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.319 What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:11.040 The Truth About Amy? 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:20.679 Episode eighteen. Hi, I'm Liam Bartlett and. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:22.319 I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:23.959 Hillo. 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.880 Nancy, Oh, you're looking so beautiful. I'm filming already. I'm sorry, 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:32.479 but you know it's a hungry beast. Nancy, it's all 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:39.640 It's so good to see you looking so well. On 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.440 my recent visit to Perth, I had the pleasure of 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.720 catching up with Amy's mum and best friend Nancy Kirk 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:48.160 and Aaron Gower. 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:53.720 How are you guys feeling after everything in this whole 0:01:53.920 --> 0:02:00.920 like avalanche of publicity, and you know that's light, I suppose, 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.000 and the podcast and everything on top of it. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.880 Well, I had a lady come up to me the 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.679 other week at work. I was helping her and then 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:15.640 she's gone to the counter bought her stuff and the 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.760 woman I was working with said my name, like olled out, Nancy. 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:21.480 Can you just have a look at the price for this? 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.679 I said, you was, And as she was walking out, 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:30.600 she said, oh, you're related to Amy Wensley. I said, now, 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.560 I'm her mother, And I don't know what it was. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.280 It was just I must have been happened one of 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.560 them days, and I couldn't help. I'd just started tearing up. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.840 And she said, yeah, one hundred behind hers. You know, 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.600 Amy didn't die, and it was nice, it was it 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:56.560 was nice, but I sort of yeah, and I just 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.680 teared up, and I was like, oh my god. 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.519 What's a lot I mean? And I don't want to 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.239 dwell on that because I know how it makes you feel. 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:10.760 But yeah, I completely understand. There is nothing worse than 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.440 what you've been through, like for me, for you know, 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.240 like a week as mums. We're all mums, right, Nothing 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.160 worse than losing the child so and then having to 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:20.360 fight for justice. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.720 I think that's the hardest. Like I was talking today 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.200 yesterday and I told her I was coming to meet 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.200 you when you're going to be here, and she goes, oh, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.240 I said, why did you want to come? She got 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:37.000 no thanks, So okay, she goes, Oh, I wish you 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:42.000 will just hurry up and finish. Yeah, Johanna, she goes, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.600 I said, I just need to hurry up. She goes, 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.400 I hate saying you like this every time something comes 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.680 up because it messes with your head. Then she goes, 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.360 I don't like it. So I just felt so nice. 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.680 Yeah, that's I think the sad thing. And they talk 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.000 about it being dredged up again as though like we 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.200 can help that, you know, like if it was dealt 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:06.720 with properly in the first place. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.160 That's right, we wouldn't be doing all this and we're 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.840 reliving every single time. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.200 One of the things that came up lim is how 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.800 victims and their families are treated after the investigation of 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.560 a loved one has been botched compared to that of 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.880 witnesses and persons of interest. 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:34.359 I don't understand how Aaron Tash, myself, what we've seen 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:40.880 what we've heard out of AIM's mouth. Then this look 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:48.760 at David, Gareth and what's the other one, Josh them 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:53.240 through their stories aren't consistent at all. I can't remember 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.840 and I can't remember. I forgot where we can tell 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.560 you exactly what we've said at the Coroner's Court twenty 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.479 twenty one. I can remember that phone call. I can't 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:12.200 get that out of my head, her voice. I'm not 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:16.599 going to forget that. I yes, I can't remember bits 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.840 and paces. 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:19.799 The shock when you're in shock. 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:24.200 Right when I got to the house after David said 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.560 that to me, I remember bits and paces. I don't 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.880 remember bits and paces when I got home, but that 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:38.120 phone call, what she said to me, I'll never forget. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.919 The other week, I was thinking that that's one of 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.560 the frustrating things about it is that we're constantly thinking 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.120 about what information can we get out there about people, 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.400 like where's David at now in his life, or what's 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:52.760 he doing? When does he have caught and all these things, 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.599 and we don't really get to just focus on just 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.359 thinking about Amen, just because how she was as a 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.200 person and who she was and all that sort of stuff, 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.520 and just enjoying or remembering her life. 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:08.320 We're just focusing on this bad no part of it. 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:13.800 It's like I can't even enjoying a grandmother and that's 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.640 what I missed. I miss those faint cads on with 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:21.200 Iman soon, right, I haven't the girls? Yeah tonight, I 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:23.560 can't do and I miss that. I like it. I 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.039 don't feel like Ann a grandmother to them girls. Yeah, 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.080 and just shouldn't have to. 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.320 And how the system isn't just geared against them, but 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.560 also the people who try to help them. I then 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.120 tell Nancy and Aaron about former detective Anne Lahane, who 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:47.000 we discussed in episode sixteen, and how she was reprimanded 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.120 for not falling in behind the decision from Major Crime 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:51.840 that Amy suicided. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:57.599 God, but why is she getting reprimanded when the two 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.680 detectives still had their freaking jobs. 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.200 How do they have the authority to tell her to 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:02.479 do that? 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.280 Well, they don't, but she got reprimanded and then she 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:08.040 was seen as. 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:08.960 Not being a team player. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:14.120 Oh my god. But aren't the uniformed police officers their 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:15.120 colleagues as well. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:16.920 They're not detectives. 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:19.240 And they do freaking better job. 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.960 Why has there not been that pressure to get more answers. 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:29.000 It's costing the government more now looking into Amy's case 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.560 now from what it would have if they've done their 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:38.880 job properly that night. I just hope this new cold 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.520 case term are a lot sorr and a lot better 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.640 than the last one. God, I hope they do the 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.080 right thing this time, by Amy, by Amy's daughters. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:56.440 Well, they say it themselves now advertised as a homicide. 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.440 Think, yeah, so homicide investigations. Yeah, that's why she needs 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.120 now where they say they've got enough information for enough 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:05.160 evidence to prosecute. 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:06.120 I mean, what do you think of it? 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.920 It's a no brainer they definitely do, wasn't it. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.880 Just like he grabbed Amy Boger's throat, he threw her 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:19.080 on the ground. That came out of Amy's mouth to me. 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:26.160 That's when I told Amy pack, yes, stuff, you and 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.720 the girls get down here now. And then that happens. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:37.280 She was hysterical. She couldn't hardly talk properly, she was 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:44.920 that hysterical. But I got her to calm down and yes, mom, 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.400 I'll be there soon, put her girls in the car. 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.079 And all the evidence shows that she was an attentive mum. 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.679 She wasn't just like a young mom that just doesn't 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.560 really worry about their kids and just lets them go. 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:01.880 She would follow schools to the school. When they first 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.400 started catching a bus to school, she would follow the 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.520 bus to school to make sure they got off the 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:12.160 bus and walking to the school, and she would follow 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:16.800 the bus after school. She've done that for about a 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.200 week to make sure her girls were safe on the bus. 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.679 I don't know about you, Lamb, but what bothers me 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.520 the most is how little power victims and their families 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.520 have in the event authorities decide. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.320 It's all just too hard. 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.280 As mentioned by the New South Wales Crime Commissioner Michael 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.479 Barnes last season, if the DPP doesn't decide to prosecute, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:46.920 there's no review process. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.560 It's an all or nothing situation, isn't it. Al It's 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.200 very final, and the families of victims must really feel that. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.199 I think you'd have to do the old walk a 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.600 mile in my shoe routine to fully understand how they 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.520 must feel. But it's almost how can I put it, 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.520 It's almost a godlike sort of system, isn't it in 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:14.480 that respect? Because that's it. The final word is the 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.800 final word. But the final word comes very early. I 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.040 think in the process. There's no checks and balances. You 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.600 just have to rely on the system, like you're in 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.000 the hands of the system full stop, and you just 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.640 have to trust that everyone along the line, and it's 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:32.480 a very short line, has done their job properly, due 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:37.280 diligence and with enough verve and vigor to come to 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.480 the right decision. And I say that because you know, 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.240 everyone's under pressure. There's budget tree pressures, there's resource pressures. 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.880 Everyone in those offices is under a lot of pressure 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:47.480 because they do do a lot of very good work. 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.280 And we're the first to acknowledge that. But that's it. 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.480 That's the sort of the Office of the High and Mighty. Now, 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.280 I mean, just to provide our listeners with context, I've 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.200 gone back and had a look at the WA Director 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.120 of Public Prosecutions Act nineteen ninety one and his role. 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:12.040 The DPP's role is very expansive, includes commencing or conducting, quote, 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:16.280 the prosecution of any offense, whether indictable or not. Now, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.080 I won't go into all these functions bore you to death, 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.120 but I thought i'd mentioned a few key ones that's 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.960 relevant to the case of Amy Wensley. For example, under 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.960 the Coroner's Act of nineteen ninety six. They are required 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.720 to participate in inquests and with concurrence of the coroner, 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.960 assist them in the proceedings. Talk more about that in 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.760 a minute, because that'll become a very important point when 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.880 we go to the previous coroner who had carriage of 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.800 Amy's case originally. But the DPP's office also have the 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.960 ability to quote, make a request in writing to an official, 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:56.040 including the Commissioner of Police. Now that's a direct quote 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.480 from the Act. I haven't added the last part. The 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.200 last part reads and a member of the police force 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:07.000 whose functions include prosecuting for or investigating offenses. Now you'll 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.760 remember the statement from the office of the DPP said 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:15.360 they had but a mere ability to advise an investigative agency, 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:20.760 implying WA Police, and it was their decision. WA Police's 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.880 decision whether to lay charges or not. However, I think 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.240 they're being a bit humble here for want of a 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:32.040 better description, because clearly the director's power from the Act, 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.880 from that quote that I've just given you, extends to 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.080 requesting from the Police Commissioner with the obvious expectation that 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:44.280 he would comply for any specified information or documentation or 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:48.360 material that the DPP thinks may be relevant if considered 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.680 to bring or take over a prosecution in relation to 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.360 an offense or suspected offense. Now he can also request 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:02.480 investigation or further investigation reried out into any matter in 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.520 relation to that offense or suspected offense. Again, the police 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:11.640 commissioner must comply unless there is any other law preventing 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:16.360 that compliance, which I would suggest to you again would 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.280 be very unusual. So Robbo and sc who is the 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.439 Director of Public Prosecutions in Wa, really can make the difference. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.360 I mean, he has complete power to make the difference 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.000 as to whether Amy's case is brought to justice. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.960 Yeah, it's interesting again going back to that whole thing 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.160 of them not having any review process for his decisions. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.320 Not even a judge gets that. It's the power that 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.200 that role has the DPP has is just I just 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:47.400 I can't quite fathom why they're allowed that level of power, 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.120 given that people who you would say were more experienced, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:57.400 had better credentials in those top areas in Supreme Court 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.839 and High Court aren't given that. I mean, well the 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.200 High Court is, but that's certainly not Supreme Court. And yeah, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.080 I just it's quite surprising. 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.480 Are you're right? I mean, Supreme Court judges are questioned 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:09.920 all the time, aren't they. That's why they go to 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.040 an appeals court. And then, as you say, ultimately there's 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.679 the High Court. So the appeal court judges on sitting 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.920 on that bench, you know, they also get scrutinized. The 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:21.960 other interesting part about that is al is that you've 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.160 got to remember that in the DPP's office, the DPP 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.800 is not looking just at things that are obvious to 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.080 you or me, or investigating officers information that we don't 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.480 even know about. There's other variables as well. There's political 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.200 variables involved in deciding whether or not a brief meets 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.520 those criteria to you know, send it through to charges. 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:45.680 There are and we've had this from a number of 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.160 DPPs across the country over the years. You know, we've 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:53.800 had comments that very truthful comments about the nature of 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.160 the budget for example, and the fact that you know 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.320 that particular case hasn't got a great chance of a 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.160 prosecution being successful. Therefore they must spend their money where 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.000 justice is also seen to be done. So there are 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:13.360 nefarious variables involved that we may not necessarily know about 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:16.240 or understand or have explained to us. So there's lots 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.480 of things in the shadows. So it makes that lack 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.760 of appeals process, I think, even even more acute. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.360 I know that Michael Barnes would really like a national 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.160 campaign on this because obviously it affects all states, not 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.880 just w WA. Certainly, it's interesting that part about the 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.320 DPP's role in inquests as well Liam that came up 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:36.320 in a recent interview. 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.200 Yeah, we managed to track down the very first coroner 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.880 who handled Amy's case, and I must say her views 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.680 were very enlightening and she was very forthcoming. I thought 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.440 I let our listeners be the judge. Pardon the pun, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.360 but even though she's now retired, evel and Vicker was 0:15:54.400 --> 0:16:00.800 a very experienced, accomplished, extremely knowledgeable coroner who likes Sarah Linton, 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.040 who was the coroner presiding over the eventual in quest, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.480 held the same title Deputy state Coroner. And what I 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.880 found most interesting is that Evelyn had a specific background 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.040 in forensics, which I think provided her with a bit 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:22.080 more understanding of their importance, especially in relation to this case. Anyway, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.920 let's not get ahead of ourselves here. We are getting acquainted, 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.320 all right. Evel and thank you very much for as 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.240 I said, for your time. It's really kind of you 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.680 to have a chat to us. So let's go back 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.520 in time a little bit. How long were you a 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:35.440 deputy state. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:43.200 Coroner from about July two thousand through to June twenty nineteen. 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.240 That's a fair old stint. And what sort of cases 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.240 were you exposed to during all that time? 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.520 Well, there was only the state coroner, which then was 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.680 Alista Hope and myself for a period of that time 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.960 up until twenty thirteen, I think, so, I mean between 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.880 us we were exposed to all the coronial cases because 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.000 between the two of us we had to cover everything. 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.160 Every sudden and unexpected death had to have an investigation 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.959 as opposed to an inquest, So there would be an 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.439 investigation and one or other us would sign off on it. 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:19.560 So we saw accidents, homicide, well not usually homicides was 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.439 after a trial, so we would get it afterwards just 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.720 to do the finding, because of course we're only responsible 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:32.320 for manner and cause of death, nothing more. So accidents, suicide, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:38.280 medical negligence, workplace incidents, anything where there was a death 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.320 that was sudden and unexpected, even natural causes if the 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.920 person was not expected to die. Therefore a doctor wasn't 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.160 prepared to do a death certificate, then that would become 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:51.080 a coronial case. 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.720 So essentially, your brief was always trying to find the 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.400 manner and cause of death. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.160 Well, cause of death was up to the pathologists, if 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.639 you like, But then we would put the cause of 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.800 death together with the surrounding evidence to give a manner 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:13.000 of death i e. Suicide, accident, unlawful killing, those sorts 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:13.359 of things. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.320 Yes, whatever was relatable to. 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.240 The evidence about the circumstances the. 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.560 Person end up being deceased one way or the other. 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:21.000 Yes. 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.040 Yes, was your background as a prosecutor helpful in doing 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:26.360 that sort of coronial. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.879 Work, Yes, it was, But don't forget prosecutors beyond a 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.560 reasonable doubt. Coronial is only on the balance of probabilities 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:39.400 because prosecuting your fault finding, coronal your only fact finding. Okay, 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.840 so there's kind of a difference there, But honestly, my 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:48.400 background as a biologist was much more pertinent and helpful 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.000 to me as a prosecutor and as a coroner. Having 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:56.800 that biology physiology understanding made it a lot easier for 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:02.560 me to understand expert evidence around whatever it was, biological 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:07.159 or whatever it was. I really think my background as 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.720 a biologist was the most useful to me both in 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.320 criminal law, which I was doing and as a coroner. 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:17.439 So that part of it is science, part of it 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:18.640 helped enormously. 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.560 Yep, hugely, absolutely hugely. 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:25.560 But also I would imagine as a prosecutor you learned 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.639 along the way how to talk to people and more importantly, 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.400 how to decipher their responses in such a way where 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.640 you suspected or or perhaps concluded that they were either 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.880 telling the truth or leading you down another garden path. 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:50.200 That's the forensic part, as in somebody may say something 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:57.240 and taking it from a prosecution point of view, someone 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.560 can be mistaken, but because they totally believed what they're saying, 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:04.400 they're very credible. So they're totally credible, so they are 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.600 telling the truth, okay, But they may not be reliable, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.199 and it's other evidence that will point to that. So 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.000 it's not that they're intentionally misleading you, but they may 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.760 have a particular memory that serves them one way. So 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.440 being able to tell with someone saying the truth or 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.520 not isn't actually what you're after. It's actually whether or 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:30.439 not what they believe are the facts. Do you understand 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:31.159 what I mean by. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.520 That, yes, But I guess that's my point. Really. Maybe 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.040 I've phrased that the wrong way, being able to read 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.520 the people scenario in situation. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.160 But you have to have other evidence to be able 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:44.160 to do that. So yeah, I mean, but someone who 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.800 believes they're telling the truth, even if they're mistaken, is 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.480 so credible because they are telling the truth as they 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.119 know it. So this thing about truth or not truth, no, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.600 not really, it's just you just know a person passionately 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.640 believes what they're saying, but it may not be quite right. 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.800 So again, this is a really good point ms Vicker 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.919 is making. Just because someone is saying something in a 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.359 way that they seem like they're telling the truth doesn't 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.600 mean they actually telling the truth. It just means it's 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.080 what they believe. I mean, as you know, Liam, we've 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.399 both spoken to Gareth Price, and he genuinely seems to 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.800 believe what he's saying. But when you point something out 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.600 which is completely irrational, he just says something which is 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:24.479 even more irrational to justify it. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.119 Yeah, and I think too, Allison. That's the old story, 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.679 isn't it. The longer you say something, no matter what 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.200 it is the more you believe it, inherently it becomes 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:38.520 your truth, as they are fond of saying these days, 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.320 which is complete lunacy because there is only one truth. 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.720 I mean, truth is non binary, however you carve it up. 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.520 But you're right. And again this is justification of why 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:52.920 a trial would be so critical in a case like Amy's, 0:21:54.280 --> 0:22:00.280 because it's different pressures, different rules of evidence, different rules 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.320 of legal counsel being able to cross examined, et cetera, 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:17.199 et cetera. Yeah, given Evelyn's background, she is perfectly placed 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.000 to to provide reasonable opinion, as I point out here, 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.000 and clearly you look at the world forensically anyway. 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.000 Yes, I mean I think you have to. I mean 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.520 I think that's what science probably teaches you. But kind 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:32.200 of so does the law, I guess. In the criminal 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:33.320 law area. 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:38.199 It's long been argued, especially in Western Australia, that the 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:43.240 Coroner's office has been understaffed, under resourced. I mean, did 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:47.600 you find that the backlog of cases was a constant challenge. 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:53.960 Yes, it was in a sort of way. But it's 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:59.479 very difficult for families to understand everything that goes into 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:04.359 making determination. You know, sometimes we wouldn't get the pathologists 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.960 report for eighteen months or so, which would delay the 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.240 police report. And it's not that anyone wasn't working hard. 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:15.240 They were working very hard. It's just that some of 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:19.080 those things take an awfully long time to clarify, like 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:24.400 especially neuropathology. Neuropathology about if you're looking at medical issues, 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.040 sometimes we just don't have the information in Australia and 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.520 our pathologists would be looking to other countries to Great 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:35.359 Britain to put information in. And then when DNA became 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:39.720 so important, originally we weren't as expert in that as 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.960 we may be now. And also the other thing that 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:46.040 people really have to understand, and it's difficult for me 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.879 because I'm not a technical person. That's kind of different 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:51.760 from the biology side. Things have come such a long 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:55.840 way with communication. It's very easy these days to ask 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.959 someone's opinion in the States or someone's opinion in Britain 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.560 if you can provide them with all the information. But 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.120 it wasn't always that easy. It used to be you'd 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:06.040 have to send them stuff and get it back and 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.399 then they'd have another query, whereas now that can be 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:13.840 done quite quickly. But there goes your backlog if you like, 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.000 we're waiting for information a lot of the time. 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:18.040 Very frustrating for the families, doesn't it. 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:21.399 Oh yeah, absolutely, I totally accept that. And that's the 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:25.720 other thing. If you want it done properly, then yeah, 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:29.240 I guess it's just very hard to explain to people. 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.480 You obviously relish the challenge though, as part of. 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:33.960 That word I loved what I was doing. 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:35.399 Yeah, so why did you finish up? 0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:38.720