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Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families podcast, what do you do

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Speaker 1: when your child has an irrational fear, or at least

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Speaker 1: a fear that doesn't make sense to you. Welcome, so

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Speaker 1: good to have you along for the Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast,

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Speaker 1: we are Justin and Kylie Coulson, and every Tuesday on

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Speaker 1: the pod we answer your tricky questions, whether their question

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Speaker 1: is about discipline, bedtime, screens, wellbeing, relationships, anything at all.

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Speaker 1: Literally ask us anything. If you'd like to submit a question,

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Speaker 1: We've got a super simple system. It's at happyfamilies dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au. Literally go to the website, scroll down

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Speaker 1: to where it says podcasts, click the record button, start talking.

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Speaker 1: Let us know what's on your mind, Kylie. A question

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Speaker 1: today from Joanne in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Justin. My name's Joanne and I'm from Melbourne. I've

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Speaker 2: been listening to your podcast since my oldest was a

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Speaker 2: baby and it has helped us so much as parents.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting in touch because my son has a fear

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Speaker 2: of buttons. We're not sure how it developed, and it

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Speaker 2: started sometime between when he was two and three. We

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Speaker 2: thought he would outgrow it, and so didn't really push it.

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Speaker 2: But he's now five and is about to start school.

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Speaker 2: We've been preparing him by telling him that he'll have

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Speaker 2: no choice but to wear uniforms when he goes to school,

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Speaker 2: which will have buttons on them. So I managed to

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Speaker 2: get him to start wearing his kinder uniform and alternate days.

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Speaker 2: But he would want to have something over it to

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Speaker 2: hide the buttons, either a jumper or a jacket, which

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Speaker 2: it won't always be an option with the warmer weather.

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Speaker 2: We're afraid that if we push it, it will traumatize him further.

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Speaker 2: We're not sure what to do and should we see

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Speaker 2: a therapist. Thanks in advance, Joanne.

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Speaker 1: Kylie, were you afraid of stuff when you were a kid?

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Speaker 3: I did have a pretty irrational fear. I actually don't

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Speaker 3: know if i've overcome it yet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, been in mind.

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Speaker 3: I don't like talking to strangers on the phone.

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Speaker 1: That Yeah, I remember once I asked you could you

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Speaker 1: make a call about connecting the electricity because we're moving

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Speaker 1: into this place and you refuse to do it. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk to people I don't know about stuff.

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Speaker 1: Still a bit like that as a grown up.

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Speaker 3: I really am, and even when I do make those

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Speaker 3: phone calls, I need to have somebody's name, and if

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Speaker 3: I can't hear it, I actually go through the awkwardness

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Speaker 3: of making sure I know who I'm speaking to before

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Speaker 3: I can continue the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Have you thought about therapy for this? Maybe I'm just kidding,

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Speaker 1: So let's just at the outset highlight. It's really normal

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Speaker 1: for children to experience fears. Kids are afraid of making

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Speaker 1: telephone calls, but more likely they're afraid of things like

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Speaker 1: the food on their plate, or the fact that they've

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Speaker 1: done a pool and it scared them when they looked

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Speaker 1: at it in the toilet, or has it left their

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Speaker 1: body when Some kids won't go to the toilet because

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Speaker 1: of this.

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Speaker 3: I don't like the sound of the toilet flushing.

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Speaker 1: Some kids are scared of dogs. There was COVID. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember how terrified I mean during twenty twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: the number of people we did some podcasts on this,

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Speaker 1: The number of people who said, my child is afraid

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Speaker 1: of Germans, my so skenger my child won't touch door handles,

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Speaker 1: or I mean that even adults didn't want to touch

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Speaker 1: fuel pumps. In the early days, of COVID, and so

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Speaker 1: the idea that I mean, some people became afraid of

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Speaker 1: going outside without hand sanitizer or gloves or masks, and

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Speaker 1: the anxieties become really really big, the worries, the fear,

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Speaker 1: the concern that something is going to occur. Being afraid

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Speaker 1: of buttons is perhaps a little more unusual. It's not

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Speaker 1: one that we hear a lot, but kids become afraid

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Speaker 1: of different stuff for different reasons. I think the most

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Speaker 1: important thing here is that you remember that your child

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Speaker 1: is not being difficult. Your child is having a difficulty.

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Speaker 1: And we're not going to talk just about buttons here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Joe, answer question is important and we'll address it,

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Speaker 1: but I want to talk generally about children being afraid

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Speaker 1: of stuff. If we're only talking about buttons, that would

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Speaker 1: rule most people out. But everyone has a child. Most

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Speaker 1: of us are afraid of some stuff.

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Speaker 3: I guess the biggest challenge here is that often we

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Speaker 3: try to have a rational, logical conversation with our children

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Speaker 3: when they're in an a highly emotive state.

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Speaker 1: And I'm always saying high motions equals low intelligence. That is,

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Speaker 1: you can't think straight when you're in a high motion state.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, Kylie. When you're stressed, when

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Speaker 1: you're worried, when you're anxious, when you are metaphorically in

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Speaker 1: a situation where you're about to encounter buttons, that is,

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Speaker 1: you're going.

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Speaker 3: To have to pick up the phone and make a

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Speaker 3: phone call.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at like the health fund or the local council.

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Speaker 1: You've got to make an inquiry about something, whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: As the anxiety goes up for you as an adult,

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Speaker 1: what is that you want from loving people around.

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Speaker 3: You that that sit beside me, hold my hand, stroke.

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Speaker 1: My phone, made me do it for you?

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Speaker 3: Give me the words?

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Speaker 1: Actually right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What do I say here?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I need them to give me the words.

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Speaker 1: How have you ever managed to do four years of podcasting?

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Speaker 1: It's amazing, it's amazing.

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Speaker 3: What editing does?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jing an amazing job. I am pretty good. I

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Speaker 1: so so to pick up on your point here, though,

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Speaker 1: what our children need is they don't need a problem

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Speaker 1: solving conversation, No, they need an emotion conversation.

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Speaker 3: When we tell our kids that they have no choice

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Speaker 3: or they have to do something. So in my case,

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Speaker 3: it was just constantly, you're a big girl, you need

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Speaker 3: to make the phone call, And I.

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Speaker 1: Felt I said that more than once after we were married.

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Speaker 3: Have a choice, we actually feed the anxiety exactly.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking I'm having flashbacks to Inside Out too right now,

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Speaker 1: and just that it's such a beautiful movie about dealing

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Speaker 1: with it. Obviously, we talked about it on the sixteenth

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Speaker 1: of jan I think it was in our Thursday Morning episode.

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Speaker 1: The way that anxiety takes over and that's what's happening

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Speaker 1: with this little guy. Okay, he's only five years old.

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Speaker 1: He's about start score probably the next week or so,

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Speaker 1: and he's thinking the buttons, the buttons are out to

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Speaker 1: get me. Whatever's going through his mind, we're never quite

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Speaker 1: going to know. And even if you sit down and say,

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Speaker 1: tell me what it is about the buttons, that four

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Speaker 1: year old or that five year old, I guarantee will

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Speaker 1: not be able to articulate why the buttons are scary,

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Speaker 1: why the buttons are causing anxiety. It's possible, as you've

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Speaker 1: said that over the last couple of years, especially in

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Speaker 1: the last little while, by highlighting you've got no choice,

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Speaker 1: it's going to happen. That doesn't tend to reduce anxiety,

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Speaker 1: tends to exacerbate and build it. So our job is

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Speaker 1: to validate before problem solving. I'm not into the gentle

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Speaker 1: parenting craze. I've been accused of being a gentle parenting

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Speaker 1: proponent for a long long time, and it's usually by

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Speaker 1: people who are gentle parents and love gentle parenting. My

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Speaker 1: sense is that if you do gentle parenting right, it's wonderful,

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Speaker 1: but too many people don't do it right. And I'm

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Speaker 1: more interested in supporting needs, being a need supportive parent

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Speaker 1: than a gentle parent. And a need support in this

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Speaker 1: context is saying this is really tough, isn't it. Or

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Speaker 1: you're really scared, aren't you? Or every time we go

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Speaker 1: to put that shirt on, you have a little mini

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Speaker 1: meltdown because it worries you, doesn't it? And just having

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Speaker 1: your child here, you articulate that, enunciate the words describe

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Speaker 1: the problem, not fix it, just describe it makes them

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Speaker 1: go yeah, yeah, that's actually that's right. If you try

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Speaker 1: to go logical then and say well, why don't you

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Speaker 1: tell me why, they won't have an answer because even

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Speaker 1: for them, they're feeling it, but they don't know, and

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Speaker 1: they will literally just cry and they'll get anxious because

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Speaker 1: they can't ask the question. But that's our first, stop

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Speaker 1: right there. This is hard for you. Just describe, say

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Speaker 1: what you see.

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Speaker 3: Two weeks ago, I shared a story about me and

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Speaker 3: my anxiety around having to climb a telegraph pole.

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Speaker 1: For context, for those of you who missed the podcast

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, you're climbing a telegraph pole

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Speaker 1: because you were on a retreat and it was one

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Speaker 1: of the activities, and you were harnessed in, and the

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Speaker 1: objective was to get to the top of the pole

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Speaker 1: just in case someone thinks you're doing.

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Speaker 3: And recognize that our fears are often quite irrational.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like buttons were completely We're.

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Speaker 3: Completely safe, completely strapped in, and yet the thought of

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Speaker 3: actually getting on top of that telegraph pole was so

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Speaker 3: intense for me to nearly ten minutes, yeah, ten minutes

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Speaker 3: to do it. But what I loved about, I guess

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Speaker 3: my reflection of it was that in that moment, I

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Speaker 3: didn't need people, a whole heap of people at the

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Speaker 3: bottom screaming at me telling I could do it and

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Speaker 3: that everything was going to be okay. What I appreciated

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Speaker 3: and needed and was given was the quiet patience of

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Speaker 3: my mentor at the bottom just said, take a deep breath, Kuyly.

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Speaker 1: You've got this, You've got this. The phrase quiet patience

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Speaker 1: is what resonates for me. After the break on the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, we'll look at seven action steps to

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Speaker 1: help your kids regardless of what they're afraid of, to

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Speaker 1: have those brave button moments, Kylie, I have seven action

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Speaker 1: steps that are going to help any parent whose children

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Speaker 1: are struggling. But before that, I really want to step

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Speaker 1: into just a couple of take home messages from what

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Speaker 1: we've discussed, because we've covered some really good stuff here.

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Speaker 1: First thing, children's fears, no matter how irrational they might seem,

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Speaker 1: are genuinely frightening to them.

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Speaker 3: Well, they're real to them.

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Speaker 1: Correct, So when you say don't worry, you're being silly,

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Speaker 1: calm down, there's nothing to worry about. That doesn't help them.

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Speaker 1: That makes them feel like, now there's something wrong with

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Speaker 1: them because they are worried about it and they're not calm,

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Speaker 1: and they can't seem to act on your instructions.

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Speaker 3: Well, it also teaches them that you don't understand exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: Second, really key point, try to have rational conversations with

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Speaker 1: an emotional child is generally going to be counterproductive, and

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Speaker 1: telling them to calm down so you can have a rational,

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Speaker 1: logical conversation is also going to be counterproductive. We need

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Speaker 1: to see them in that space and literally say this

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Speaker 1: is really hard for you, isn't it, and give them

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Speaker 1: a hug, help them to be calm, and then move

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Speaker 1: forward to It's like that conversation we had the other

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Speaker 1: week with Charles douhig. Do you want to be helped?

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Speaker 1: Do you want to hug or do you want to

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Speaker 1: be heard? Third thing, you've already mentioned this, but it's

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Speaker 1: a key point that we've got to be really clear on.

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Speaker 1: Telling kids that they have no choice is going to

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Speaker 1: increase their anxiety. It's not going to reduce it. Fourth thing,

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Speaker 1: Creating emotional safety is what we have to do before

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Speaker 1: we address the fear. Once we've created the emotional safety,

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Speaker 1: that's when we get to have the conversation and say,

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Speaker 1: all right, this is really tricky. What's our way forward?

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Speaker 1: How are we going to address this final point gentle exposure.

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Speaker 1: Gentle exposure to the buttons or to the puppy dog,

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Speaker 1: or to the man with a beard or whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that your child might be afraid of gentle exposure.

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Speaker 1: Lots of you, what was the word you used about patience,

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Speaker 1: quiet patient, gentle exposure, quiet patience much more effective than

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Speaker 1: some sort of a forced confrontation. Do kids sometimes have

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Speaker 1: to do really hard things? Of course they do. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you've just got to push through it. Sometimes you do

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Speaker 1: have to suck it up, Princess, but more often than

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Speaker 1: not they don't.

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Speaker 3: You've just taken me back to my childcare days and

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Speaker 3: the idea of exposing children to different mediums. I wonder

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Speaker 3: what it will look like to use buttons in your art,

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Speaker 3: Whether it be at first he might not want to

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Speaker 3: touch one, but you could attach one to the end

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Speaker 3: of a cork and use that as a stamp that

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Speaker 3: he could use to create patterns on his page. As

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Speaker 3: he gets a bit more comfortable with it, you might

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Speaker 3: do some button sorting, or you might actually do a

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Speaker 3: button art work at college.

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Speaker 1: The buttons could be the center of flowers or the sun.

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Speaker 3: There's so many different things that you could do where

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Speaker 3: he actually starts to see maybe with school coming up,

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Speaker 3: you go to the shops and you actually go and

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Speaker 3: find a beautiful button that you could sew into the

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Speaker 3: inside of his pants that he could touch and know

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Speaker 3: that that represents Mum. Like every time he's feeling a

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Speaker 3: little bit lost or anything, he can just hold onto

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Speaker 3: that button inside his pants and that mum's thinking of

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Speaker 3: him and loves him. There are so many different ways

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Speaker 3: that you could play with this, and you have so

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Speaker 3: much fun.

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Speaker 1: You could teach him to use a needle and thread

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Speaker 1: and sew buttons and turn that into a craft project

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Speaker 1: or a fun weekend activity. I know that sounds weird,

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Speaker 1: but little kids, four year old, five year old kids,

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Speaker 1: they would probably be like, I get to sit with

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Speaker 1: my parents and use a like a needle has risk

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Speaker 1: associated with it, This becomes a really fun potential. It

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Speaker 1: could also exacerbate the anxiety because now he's going to

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Speaker 1: be scared of needles and pins and buttons. But I'm

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Speaker 1: getting ahead of myself, Kylie. We need to wrap this up.

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Speaker 1: If I was to talk about specific action steps for parents,

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Speaker 1: this is what I'd be encouraging. Number one. Acknowledge the fear,

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Speaker 1: but don't try to talk them out of it, because

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Speaker 1: your logic is not going to be helpful. Number two,

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Speaker 1: create the emotional safety before addressing the fear. Number three,

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Speaker 1: look for and celebrate brave moments that your child might have.

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Speaker 1: Number four, let your child develop salut with you. Don't

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Speaker 1: give them solutions, let them develop those solutions with you.

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Speaker 1: Number five, find alternative practical solutions. So, Kylie, you've talked

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Speaker 1: about all the therapeutic options that might work, and I

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Speaker 1: love that. Another simple solution could be maybe he can

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Speaker 1: wear a sports uniform. I know that some sports uniforms

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Speaker 1: have buttons on the polo or whatever, but two buttons

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Speaker 1: is better than four or the different fabric. Joanne said

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Speaker 1: that he was okay wearing a jumper over the top

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Speaker 1: of the buttons, so there are definitely some options here

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Speaker 1: that could be tried. I think if it becomes really

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Speaker 1: really challenging, you've got to work with the school to

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Speaker 1: find accommodations where you needed. You might even want to

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Speaker 1: talk to a counselor. I don't reckon a psychologist is needed.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't have thought that a psychologist would be a

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Speaker 3: first point of call, but I also think that there

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Speaker 3: are plenty of other therapies out there that could be helpful.

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Speaker 1: And it has been going on for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: so maybe if you're not making any headway, it might

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Speaker 1: be helpful to get some professional involvement. And last of all,

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Speaker 1: I think we should just remember that most child good

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Speaker 1: fears resolve with quiet patients and some compassionate support.

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Speaker 3: I think the one thing to remember is, firstly, we've

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Speaker 3: got to be kind to ourselves as parents. Our kids

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Speaker 3: are going through a hard thing and sometimes that creates

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Speaker 3: hard challenges for us as parents. But secondly, we're so

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Speaker 3: used to having quick fixes. We're so used to having

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Speaker 3: answers at the ready. Because you know we've got a problem,

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Speaker 3: We've go on to Google and in an instant we've

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Speaker 3: got fifteen, twenty hundreds of ideas to work with. So

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Speaker 3: we're used to having answers placed in our lap. And

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Speaker 3: the reality is our kids aren't. They're not cookie cutters.

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Speaker 3: Every single one of them is different. Every single one

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Speaker 3: of them has their own perks, their own quirks, and

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Speaker 3: they are individual in their response to the world. And

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Speaker 3: so if we just give them the time to work

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Speaker 3: themselves out with gentle, quiet patients, I think that we'll

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Speaker 3: actually find that life is much better for everybody.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like to submit a tricky question, we've got

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Speaker 1: a super simple system at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: Just go to the website, scroll down to podcasts, click

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Speaker 1: the record button and start talking. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. If you

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Speaker 1: would like more information and more resources to make your

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Speaker 1: family happy at visit us at happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au