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Speaker 1: And we have discussed a little earlier in the week

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Speaker 1: that data released by the Northern Territory Police earlier this

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Speaker 1: week revealed dozens of people have been fined and three

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Speaker 1: people arrested since the new public drinking law came into

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Speaker 1: force in November. Now, according to a report by the

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Speaker 1: ABC NT, police said that one hundred and twenty people

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Speaker 1: across the territory had been hit with one hundred and

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Speaker 1: ninety seven dollar fine since that law came into effect

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Speaker 1: as of January twenty eight. That was so that totals

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Speaker 1: up to more than twenty three thousand dollars. Oh to

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory government. Now joining me in the studio

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Speaker 1: to talk more about this is the MENSI School of

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Speaker 1: Health researchers, Doctor Cassandra. Right, Good morning to you, Cassandra.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, lovely to have you in the studio. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for your time. Now. It is just one

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Speaker 1: of the changes that's set to come into play when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the misuse of alcohol in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that the data shows.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I guess the number of

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Speaker 2: fines doesn't really tell us anything about whether or not

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Speaker 2: that's resulted in any kind of reductions in the actual

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Speaker 2: harms that these kinds of laws were saying that they

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Speaker 2: were in place to sort of address. So we don't know,

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Speaker 2: you know, once people have been given those fines, I mean, A,

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Speaker 2: have they paid them? We know that fines aren't really

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Speaker 2: a deterrent for people who have so many complex things

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Speaker 2: going on in their lives, which is the case for

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Speaker 2: a lot of these people. And b you know, have

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Speaker 2: these people received any kind of support, Has anything been

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Speaker 2: done to kind of address the drivers of what causes

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Speaker 2: the harms that the territorians I guess are really concerned about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I suppose it's a matter of you know,

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Speaker 1: they've received a fine, but what kind of happens next?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, so finds themselves. I mean a lot of

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Speaker 2: the people. So my research team is out on the

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Speaker 2: streets talking to people in Darwin, across Alice Springs, across

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Speaker 2: the whole of the Northern Territory about alcohol, some of

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Speaker 2: the people with the most heavy drinking and alcohol related problems.

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Speaker 2: And there's honestly so many intersecting things happening for people

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Speaker 2: with housing, often with violence, with trauma, with other really

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Speaker 2: complex health needs. And so for me, I guess it's

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Speaker 2: kind of wishful thinking to think that a fine alone

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Speaker 2: is going to put someone you know, fix their problems. Really,

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Speaker 2: we know it takes a whole lot more outreach and

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Speaker 2: care to really address those things.

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Speaker 1: So if fines aren't the answer, what could assist to

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Speaker 1: minimize the level of public drinking that we do experience

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Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think we need to rethink on what

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Speaker 2: we're actually trying to address here. I mean, is public

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Speaker 2: drinking itself a harm? Not necessarily I can understand where

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Speaker 2: territorians are concerned about, you know, the number of assaults,

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Speaker 2: the amount that we spend on alcohol, the huge health

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Speaker 2: consequences that alcohol has for people. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: really where we need to be thinking. Are we using

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Speaker 2: strategies that address the things that are actually causing problems

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Speaker 2: in our society? Is public drinking it or is it

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Speaker 2: actually when public drinking intersex with those actual harms where

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Speaker 2: we need you know, that's where we need a public

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Speaker 2: attention to Well.

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Speaker 1: I know, one of the big things that comes up

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Speaker 1: time and time again on this show with situations where

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Speaker 1: you might have people sort of living in the long

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Speaker 1: grass or being out in public places drinking, and that

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Speaker 1: may not be a huge issue to begin with, but

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Speaker 1: then after they've been there for an extended period of time,

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Speaker 1: it does then progress into behavior that nobody really feels

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Speaker 1: as acceptable. And some cases, you know, that can include

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Speaker 1: domestic violence on the streets, that can include sort of

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Speaker 1: breaking entries, even big fights. You know, we'd seen that

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Speaker 1: towards the end of last year. I reckon it was

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Speaker 1: where there had been a group that had been sitting

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Speaker 1: for quite some time Northern Territory News and then after

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Speaker 1: a couple of days sort of turned into a really

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Speaker 1: big blow up. So I guess that's what people are

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Speaker 1: most concerned about.

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Speaker 2: Of course, But we have to think of when we

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Speaker 2: use these kinds of punitive approaches. I guess to public

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Speaker 2: intoxication and the associated harms, and we policed them, and

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Speaker 2: we use a policing approach, it actually just tends to

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Speaker 2: move the problem into less visible locations. So often that

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Speaker 2: violence still occurs and safe for women in less visible

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Speaker 2: spaces on the outskirts of town near big highways. We

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Speaker 2: already see huge rates of pedestrian accidents and deaths, so

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Speaker 2: it's kind of is it just that we're not seeing

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Speaker 2: it in the public spaces where we're looking. Is it

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Speaker 2: still happening? Police are still responding, emergency services are still responding.

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Speaker 2: Women people are still suffering from it. I think that

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Speaker 2: was really the concern when these changes came into effect.

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Speaker 2: Is it going to address these.

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Speaker 1: Do we need more emergency accommodation? What do you think

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Speaker 1: we kind of need from those discussions that you're having

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Speaker 1: with people that are on the.

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Speaker 2: Streets, Yeah, I think outreach support. So there are some

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Speaker 2: really good programs, but they're simply over capacity and not

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Speaker 2: really able to deal with the scope of issues that

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Speaker 2: we have. So outreach support for people. If we look

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Speaker 2: at sobering up shelter beds, that is a way to

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Speaker 2: keep people safe when they are highly intoxicated. That does

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Speaker 2: reduce harms. And our beds are often in diwan a capacity.

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Speaker 2: By six pm, there are no more beds left, and

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Speaker 2: so we have people like you know, wonderful night patrol

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Speaker 2: workers who are desperately trying to find accommodation and safe

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Speaker 2: places to take people, and they know that once those

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Speaker 2: beds are gone, there is nowhere else to take them.

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Speaker 2: And so really that leaves people in incredibly vulnerable situations,

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Speaker 2: and that is at the heart of things like these

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Speaker 2: pedestrian accidents and injuries is people with nowhere to stay.

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Speaker 2: So emergency accommodations, sobering up shelters, outreach care, there's a

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Speaker 2: huge range of things that people are calling for and

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Speaker 2: have been calling for for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, it actually feels like a

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Speaker 1: discussion like I've been on here for ten years. It

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Speaker 1: feels like a discussion that I've been having with people

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Speaker 1: for ten years. You know, we spoke years and years

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Speaker 1: ago about a shelter or a sobering up shelter that

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Speaker 1: they have in Mount iSER, and we'd spoken to somebody

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Speaker 1: in Mount iSER about that and whether we needed to

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Speaker 1: kind of be expanding services here in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: to something similar. Honestly, I reckon that discussion was eight

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Speaker 1: years ago, and so it is something that just continues

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Speaker 1: to sort of go on and on. There will be

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Speaker 1: people listening though this morning that are sort of saying

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Speaker 1: to themselves, well, you know, what do we do do

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Speaker 1: you just leave people on the street and allow them to,

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Speaker 1: you know, to continue to drink and put themselves and

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Speaker 1: others in dangerous situations. But from what I can hear

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Speaker 1: from you, we sort of, you know, by the sounds

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Speaker 1: of it, the research showing we need a bit more support.

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Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, I think we know that even when we're

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Speaker 2: trying to address crime related outcomes, let's say assaults, let's

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Speaker 2: say break ins, we actually get more effective responses when

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Speaker 2: we invest in treating alcohol and drugs as a health issue,

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Speaker 2: because that's really what it is at its core. So

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Speaker 2: even if those things that you're worried about, you're not

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Speaker 2: thinking about them like a health issue, when we invest

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Speaker 2: in this as a health issue, that's really where we

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Speaker 2: see the most effect. So I'll join the calls that

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Speaker 2: have been made for you know, decades and decades. That's

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Speaker 2: really where it is, and we just need a willingness

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Speaker 2: to actually invest in the things that work. I think

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Speaker 2: that's I guess a concern at the moment with how

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Speaker 2: things are going in alcohol policy and alcohol treatment is

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Speaker 2: there is a bit of a tendance to do things

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Speaker 2: that sound like they might work. They're pretty short term,

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Speaker 2: they're pretty reactive, and they're not addressing what's actually underpinning

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Speaker 2: the problems we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Cassandra right before I let you go. We know

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Speaker 1: that next week will parliament resumes in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: and the Northern Territory government's also expected to scrape the

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Speaker 1: minimum floor price for alcohol. I know that you and

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Speaker 1: I have spoken about this in the past, and as

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Speaker 1: that sort of draws closer, how are you and others

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Speaker 1: working in the sector feeling about those changes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we've said it before. It doesn't really

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Speaker 2: make any sense from an evidence perspective. We know pricing

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Speaker 2: policies have worked in the territory, including this policy, including

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Speaker 2: previous policies. I guess we're really hoping that there will

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Speaker 2: be enough debate and discussion about whether, let's say, they've

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Speaker 2: decided that minimum unit pricing is not the one for

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Speaker 2: the COLP. They're not willing to do it because it

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Speaker 2: sounds like it's a labor policy. That's fine, but we

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Speaker 2: actually need to be looking at there are alternative pricing

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Speaker 2: policies that do the job of this. What these policies

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Speaker 2: are really here for their countermeasures to the pricing tactics

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Speaker 2: that alcohol companies use to keep heavy drinkers drinking really heavily.

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Speaker 2: So we need to be buffering against this alcohol companies

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Speaker 2: ability to sell really cheap, low cost alcohol to a

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Speaker 2: vulnerable population, so that some kind of buffer needs to

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Speaker 2: be in place. If it's not minimum munit pricing, I'm interested.

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Speaker 2: What else is the government going to do that actually

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Speaker 2: has that mechanism.

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Speaker 1: Well, we will see exactly what comes out next week,

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Speaker 1: no doubt, you and I will talk again, Doctor Cassandra

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Speaker 1: Right from the Mensi School of Health Research, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for coming into the studio with us this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you