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Speaker 1: Now, yesterday, in a very sad situation, we know that

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police Force said goodbye to one of

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Speaker 1: their own at a memorial service. Michael Dutram was described

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Speaker 1: as a staunch advocate for the frontline, always one to

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Speaker 1: lend a hand, humble, courageous, compassionate, hard working and generous

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Speaker 1: and he applied those characteristics to his life and his

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Speaker 1: career as a police officer in the Northern Territory. We

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Speaker 1: know that mister Dutram was one of three suicides among

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Speaker 1: current and former Northern Territory police officers in three months.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line is the Police Association

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Speaker 1: President Paul McHugh. Good morning to you, Paul.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Ken, Paul.

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Speaker 1: I've no doubt yesterday was an incredibly tough day for

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Speaker 1: mister Dutram's family and friends and the whole police force.

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Speaker 2: It was a very tough day and you know, another

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Speaker 2: sad reminder of the really difficult job police do and

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Speaker 2: the impacts it can have on you know, really really

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Speaker 2: strong people and over time it can really have an impact.

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Speaker 2: And we saw sadly yesterday barely a dry eye in

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Speaker 2: the house, hundreds of police there to pay respect to

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Speaker 2: one of our most dedicated and hard working officers, and

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Speaker 2: sadly all too soon after a previous death of a

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Speaker 2: serving officer in similar circumstances who was also a long

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Speaker 2: serving and respected a member of our policing community. And

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Speaker 2: you know, it's really highlighted, of course again the dangers,

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Speaker 2: as I've said, the dangers not just physically but mentally

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Speaker 2: that our members go out there and do on behalf

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Speaker 2: of the community every day.

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Speaker 1: It is you know, it's an issue that you and

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Speaker 1: I spoke about last week. It's an issue that we

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Speaker 1: also spoke with the Acting Commissioner, Michael Murphy about last week.

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Speaker 1: And I understand that the Police Commissioner Jamie Chalker has

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Speaker 1: now confirmed has now confirmed that independent that independent reporting

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Speaker 1: or the independent meeting had happened. Did you end up

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Speaker 1: meeting with the police last week or what exactly has

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Speaker 1: happened and are there going to be some recommendations implemented?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, lookok, this is obviously something that we have been

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Speaker 2: asking for for many, many years. Every conference we provide

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Speaker 2: opening addresses to our delegates. The Commissioner at the time,

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Speaker 2: the Minister is always there and they hear our concerns

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Speaker 2: around this very issue and we've been flagging this for

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Speaker 2: a long time and sadly it shouldn't take tragedies like

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Speaker 2: this to really bring it to the forefront. There needs

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Speaker 2: to be far more proactive work done to just minimize

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Speaker 2: the risks associated with this hideous disease. And of course

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Speaker 2: we did meet with the police recently following our requests

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Speaker 2: for a review which the government committed to at the

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Speaker 2: last election, and we've obviously received a briefing, a very

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Speaker 2: brief report on where that's at. But of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: really we weren't too surprised, and obviously there's still some

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Speaker 2: work to be done there, but you know, there's not

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Speaker 2: a lot of surprises there when we talk about all

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Speaker 2: the research that's been done over many years, over the

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Speaker 2: last four or five years on this particular topic. So

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Speaker 2: there's no real surprises there. And we need to be

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Speaker 2: investing at the front end to save lives at the

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Speaker 2: back end. And it's as simple as that.

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Speaker 1: And so do we have any idea at this point

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Speaker 1: in time exactly what we are going to see implemented.

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Speaker 2: No, Look, obviously it's in its very early days. The

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Speaker 2: very early summary has been provided and still speaking with

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Speaker 2: some stakeholders. But you know, I won't say underwhelming, but

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Speaker 2: certainly it needs to be used in a positive way.

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Speaker 2: I know it the service yesterday, you know, there was

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Speaker 2: some as I said, the barely a dry eye, and

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Speaker 2: one of of course Michael's brothers, is a long serving

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Speaker 2: and respected officer in our police force, Tony, and he

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Speaker 2: had some very pertinent words Katie at the time, and

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Speaker 2: obviously PTSD is something that needs to be understood and addressed,

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Speaker 2: and he won't mind me saying that, you know, in

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Speaker 2: his speech yesterday he really highlighted the need for more

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Speaker 2: prevention and awareness in this space. And as an agency,

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Speaker 2: we need to ensure the support and services are proportionate

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Speaker 2: to the volume and trauma our men and women are

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Speaker 2: facing in the front line. We need to ensure that

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Speaker 2: we have collectively faced and when we have collectively faced

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Speaker 2: enough because it does break people, Katie, sadly it does.

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Speaker 2: And when that happens, those people need to be treated properly.

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Speaker 2: They need to be cared for, respected and be able

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Speaker 2: to leave with dignity. And that's been a problem for

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Speaker 2: many years. So I'm meeting with the Commissioner today. I

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Speaker 2: want this to be an absolute priority for him and

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Speaker 2: the government they need to step up to the plate.

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Speaker 2: There needs to be funding provided to make sure we

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Speaker 2: never ever have to go to one of these again.

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Speaker 2: I'm sadly going to a funeral next week of a

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Speaker 2: recently retired officer who sadly lost his battle as well.

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Speaker 2: And it's tough. It's tough on many of our officers

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Speaker 2: out there, and we cannot, we cannot be in vain

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Speaker 2: for what's taken place over the last few weeks.

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Speaker 1: It is incredibly sad stuff. My heart goes out, you know,

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Speaker 1: to the families that have been impacted, but to the

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Speaker 1: whole police force. I think when something like this happens,

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Speaker 1: it is felt so broadly within the police force and

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Speaker 1: more broadly within the community as well. And I think

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Speaker 1: you're spot on, you know, we need to see some

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Speaker 1: change in this space. I know that the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: budget was obviously handed down just a couple of days ago.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything in the budget, you know, speaking specifically

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Speaker 1: about these issues with it with mental health within the force.

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Speaker 2: Nothing that stood out obviously. You know, it's very early days.

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Speaker 2: We're sort of going through that budget and obviously trying

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Speaker 2: to make some head or tail of the outcome. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: the Minister's announced a small increase in that budget, but disappointingly,

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Speaker 2: employee expenses are down over two million dollars. But there's

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Speaker 2: nothing specifically jumping out in relation to health and well being.

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Speaker 2: Now we've got chaplaincy services, we've got peer support officers,

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Speaker 2: we've got support and well being branches that all of

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Speaker 2: those services are good, but there's never been enough of them.

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Speaker 2: We don't have a current chaplain in our springs. Our

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Speaker 2: well being and health officers about to move on from

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Speaker 2: down now and we've got no replacement yet. This budget

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Speaker 2: is a budget for policing and operations at policing. This

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Speaker 2: goes beyond that, Cadie, This goes far beyond a budget

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Speaker 2: and dollar figure. This is about saving lives and the

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Speaker 2: government needs to find money. If they haven't allocated in

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Speaker 2: this budget, they need to dare well find it and

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Speaker 2: put that forward for the Commissioner to make sure there's

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Speaker 2: extra resources in place to make sure that support networks

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Speaker 2: in there for our officers.

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Speaker 1: Paul, do you feel as though has the Police Minister

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Speaker 1: really indicated that this is high on her agenda at

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Speaker 1: the moment.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've asked for this review. She committed to the

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Speaker 2: last and the lead up to the last election to

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Speaker 2: undertaking that review. But we can't wait twelve or eighteen

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Speaker 2: months or twenty four months to find money to increase

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Speaker 2: these resources. There are other jurisdictions doing some terrific work

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Speaker 2: in this space, Victoria Australian Federal Police. Sadly, you know,

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Speaker 2: we've had I think seven police officers this year in

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Speaker 2: the country take their lives, two of those here in

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory. And you know, the Minister can't sit

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Speaker 2: on our hands on this. We can't sit and look

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Speaker 2: at these review recommendations. And so that's great. In twenty

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Speaker 2: four months, this is what it's going to look like.

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Speaker 2: The action needs to start now and our members need

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Speaker 2: to see that commitment from the government.

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Speaker 1: Paul, I just want to head across to another another

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Speaker 1: issue which has arisen this morning. The Opposition leader Lea

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Speaker 1: Fanoccuiaro was just on the show. She's calling for the

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Speaker 1: government to support a bipartisan approach to combat the territories

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Speaker 1: escalating crime crisis and address catastrophic concerns within the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory police. So essentially what she wants to do is

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Speaker 1: sit down with Labor members and the Independents to form

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Speaker 1: a select parliamentary committee to specifically look at crime and

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Speaker 1: the reasons for crime and youth crime in the territory

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Speaker 1: along with recidivism, but then also looking at looking at

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Speaker 1: our police attrition rates and other issues that we've got

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Speaker 1: right now, Paul, is this something that the Police Association

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Speaker 1: would like to see happen?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look absolutely, I mean I don't see any negatives

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Speaker 2: to sitting down collectively and reviewing what's going on. I mean,

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Speaker 2: no one should be frightened of such a parliamentary committee

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Speaker 2: forming and having a look at those particular issues. Now.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously we've highlighted the attrition rate for some time.

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Speaker 2: I think it's on target to exceed eleven percent. Are

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Speaker 2: you're talking under an eighty officers or more leaving in

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Speaker 2: a twelve month period. I mean that must be costing

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Speaker 2: the government millions and millions of dollars to try and

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Speaker 2: maintain recruiting to replace those officers. So how about we

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Speaker 2: look at why they're leaving, what we can do to

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Speaker 2: keep them Because it's a very competitive market. Police are

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Speaker 2: tired after a couple of really tough years and sadly

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Speaker 2: a lot are leaving and we need to understand the

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Speaker 2: real reasons why to try to do everything we can

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Speaker 2: to stop that, stop that bleed into other jurisdictions and

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Speaker 2: other roles.

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Speaker 1: So, Paul, did you just say that the attrition rate?

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Speaker 1: Did you say eleven percent?

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Speaker 2: It's on target this year to reach over eleven percent, Katie,

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Speaker 2: which is extraordinary when you talk about a police force

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Speaker 2: of one thousand, six hundred and fifty or thereabouts, so

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Speaker 2: you're talking well over ten percent of that police force

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Speaker 2: leaving to do other careers and other police force roles

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Speaker 2: in a one year period. That's just extraordinary, and we

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Speaker 2: need to understand why.

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Speaker 1: How does that compare it to other years?

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Speaker 2: On our year, it's at least double what we were

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Speaker 2: previously round twenty seven, eight, eighteen or nineteen, and then

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Speaker 2: the figure was down around four to five percent and

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Speaker 2: maybe up to six percent, but never never of those

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Speaker 2: sort of figures. And that's you know, that's indicative of

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Speaker 2: various factors, but we need to understand exactly what they

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Speaker 2: are and why people are leaving. And you know, as

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Speaker 2: I said, it's costing millions to try and tain recruitment

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Speaker 2: to cover those losses. Why don't we invest in the

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Speaker 2: reasons why they're leaving and stop it.

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Speaker 1: Before I let you go this morning, do you know

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Speaker 1: if there's been any updates on the situation with Mark

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Speaker 1: Casey being suspended and I know that his pay has

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Speaker 1: been reinstated, but do you know if there's been any

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Speaker 1: update in that space.

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Speaker 2: Nothing at this stage. Obviously, Mark's still receiving assistance through

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory Police Association to help him through what's

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Speaker 2: a difficult time. And you know, obviously we've been in

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Speaker 2: touch with police management about that since that story broke

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Speaker 2: and we'll continue to assist him in that process.

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Speaker 1: Well. Police Association President Paul McHugh, we always appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having a chat with us this morning.

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Speaker 1: And I know it's a difficult time for all of

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Speaker 1: our Northern Territory police with that memorial service held yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and as I always say, we really appreciate the work

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Speaker 1: that our Territory police do and we're thinking of all

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Speaker 1: of them at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Good on you, Katie, appreciate this