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Speaker 1: But yesterday we learned that there had been a decision made. Well,

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Speaker 1: we know that Santos has launched an appeal to regain

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Speaker 1: its drilling rights for the four point seven billion dollar

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Speaker 1: offshore gas project. Now, Federal Court Chief Justice James Alsop

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Speaker 1: said yesterday that he'd expedite the appeal against that decision

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Speaker 1: that was revoked or it revoked Santos's drilling environment plan.

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Speaker 2: Now, there is quite.

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Speaker 1: A bit to this decision, and I guess you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, i'd read through some of the different articles

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Speaker 1: that had been published and certainly heard bits and pieces

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Speaker 1: about it, and thought, I really have no idea what

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Speaker 1: it all means. And I know that a lot of

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Speaker 1: our listeners probably feel exactly the same way. So we

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Speaker 1: have all been wondering what does this decision to halt

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Speaker 1: the project mean for the local people, but also what

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Speaker 1: does it mean more broadly when we talk about industry

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Speaker 1: and the environment. And joining me in the studio to

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more, or to hopefully give

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Speaker 1: us a little bit of an understanding, I have got

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Speaker 1: Charles Darwin, University Professor of Law, Liz Spencer, good morning

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Speaker 1: to you, Good morning King, Thanks so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: And we've also got course coordinator and lecturer in law,

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Speaker 1: Roz Vickers.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Rosa. Thank you, yeah, thank you boy,

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Speaker 2: it so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Now, firstly, Roz, what does the decision by Santos to

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Speaker 1: appeal to regain the drilling rights mean?

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Speaker 3: Now? Well, what it means is essentially that the court

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Speaker 3: will revisit the decision of Justice Bromberg. And the original

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Speaker 3: decision that Justice Brombog made only a few weeks ago

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Speaker 3: was to declare the drilling permit that Santos held to

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Speaker 3: be invalid. And the reason that he said it was

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Speaker 3: invalid was it the regulator, not SEEMA, didn't follow the

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Speaker 3: laws or require the laws to be followed properly, and

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Speaker 3: that Santos hadn't properly consulted with the Tee Islander people,

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Speaker 3: in particular the Manupie clan about their interest in the

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Speaker 3: sea country.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and so I suppose a lot of people listening

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Speaker 1: will sort of be wondering, now.

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Speaker 2: What the appeal, Well, what the means?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what the appeal really means is that the

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Speaker 3: full Federal Court, so it will be at least three

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Speaker 3: judges of the full Federal Court will redetermine the matter,

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Speaker 3: and the matter will be determined by what's raised in

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Speaker 3: the grounds of appeal or the notice of appeal, and

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Speaker 3: that notice of appeal is really going to the fact

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Speaker 3: that the original judge made a mistake in the way

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Speaker 3: that he interpreted the laws and also interpreted the evidence

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Speaker 3: that was given to him.

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Speaker 1: And how long does a process like an appeal such

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Speaker 1: as this, because it does sound like it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: complicated thing.

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Speaker 2: How long would something like that potentially tight?

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Speaker 3: Yet, so the full Federal Court will be listed for

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Speaker 3: two days to rehear the matter, and so that bit

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Speaker 3: won't take so long. The original hearing I think was

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Speaker 3: five and included a day of the court going out

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Speaker 3: to the Tie Islands to hear the evidence on country,

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Speaker 3: which was a first.

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Speaker 4: The full Federal Court's.

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Speaker 3: Been listed for two days, and it won't take so long.

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Speaker 3: It's normally the part where the judges are mulling over

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Speaker 3: the legal issues and delivering and determining what their judgment

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Speaker 3: will be.

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Speaker 4: Is the time is the time delay.

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Speaker 1: And you know, in the meantime, I suppose a lot

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Speaker 1: of people will be wondering what, you know, what the

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Speaker 1: decision means? When it comes to the certainty of projects

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Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory. I know that there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of discussion about gas sort of forming part of

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Speaker 1: the economic bounce back, and so a lot of people

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Speaker 1: will be wondering what the decision means in terms of

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Speaker 1: certainty for those wanting to do business in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 3: And look at the decision is actually the decision of

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Speaker 3: not SEEMA, which is a federal or the Commonwealth environment

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Speaker 3: regulator for anything that's in the offshore petroleum area, so

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Speaker 3: the Commonwealth Waters. So as far as yes, it does

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Speaker 3: have an impact on the territory environment, but it's not

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Speaker 3: actually a territory decision maker that's being challenged.

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Speaker 4: So it's the.

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Speaker 3: Implications could actually be greater for all activities in the

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Speaker 3: Commonwealth Waters that fall under the particular regulations that a

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Speaker 3: very specific to offshoal petroleum.

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Speaker 5: I think that while you know, obviously we care about

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Speaker 5: jobs and we care about attracting investment, and Santos has

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Speaker 5: said that public a public policy issue here is what

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Speaker 5: does project approval look like and how can business achieve certainty?

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Speaker 5: And that's something that all Australian governments should be addressing

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Speaker 5: consultation has been a fraud issue, as you would know,

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Speaker 5: and it isn't settled what that looks like. But I

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Speaker 5: think one of the great things about this ongoing discussion

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Speaker 5: and the debate that this decision process is engendering no

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Speaker 5: matter which way it goes. It really helps us focus

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Speaker 5: our thinking in Yeah, we need to we need to

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Speaker 5: respect business interests and we need certainty for investment, but

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Speaker 5: stewardship of the environment also means not shutting out the

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Speaker 5: voices that are most interested in the protection of the

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Speaker 5: land and the traditional owners and.

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Speaker 6: Making sure that there is that genuine consultation with them. Absolutely,

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Speaker 6: and what does that look like, Yeah, and I suppose

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Speaker 6: that's going to be, you know very much. I guess

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Speaker 6: an interesting part of this whole process the consultation factor,

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Speaker 6: because that at the heart of it all is, you know,

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Speaker 6: is what needs to be happening. And like you've said there,

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Speaker 6: if this decision then potentially is going to impact not

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Speaker 6: just here in the Northern Territory but Commonwealth waters all

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Speaker 6: around the place, It's going to have a much greater

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Speaker 6: impact right around.

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Speaker 4: Look, it could do.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that the Commonwealth government can do is

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Speaker 3: actually change the regulations and essentially mean that this particular

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Speaker 3: issue about consultation will no longer be an issue.

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Speaker 4: If the law says this is no longer an issue.

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Speaker 3: This is how you undertake consultation and make it a

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Speaker 3: bit clearer, then it won't be an issue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, And so is that something that potentially could

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Speaker 1: or you know, it could be looked at or should

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Speaker 1: be looked at.

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Speaker 3: Something that I'm sure that the Federal government will be

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Speaker 3: looking at right now, and it's it would be the

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Speaker 3: normal course of action that you know, you've got a

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Speaker 3: decision that's come from the Federal Court. What does it

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Speaker 3: mean you're a government lawyer and you'd be looking at, well,

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Speaker 3: this is what the regulation says. Is this what we

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Speaker 3: want it to really mean? According to the federal law

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Speaker 3: or the Federal Court's decision and providing advice.

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Speaker 1: I mean, would that potentially makes things much clearer then

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Speaker 1: for any industry wanting to do business, whether it's here

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Speaker 1: or where ever it is around Australia, if there's very

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Speaker 1: clear cut regulations when.

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Speaker 2: It comes to that consultation.

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Speaker 4: Well no, not necessarily.

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Speaker 3: I mean it would still be up to the original

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Speaker 3: or the decision makers to ensure that those regulations are

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Speaker 3: being complied with. It's definitely one solution, but you've also

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Speaker 3: got to go back to and say, well, what's the

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Speaker 3: point of having these regulations. Is it to ensure that

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Speaker 3: we include all of those voices that need to be

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Speaker 3: heard in the process. And if that's the case, well

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Speaker 3: it may be that the consultation provisions are actually widened

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Speaker 3: and make it clearer that yes, you do need to

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Speaker 3: insult with all traditional owners about all of their interests.

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Speaker 4: So it could go either way.

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Speaker 2: That's a really difficult question.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, COMPLI well, it all sounds so complicated, and I

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Speaker 1: guess that this is the you know, the difficult part

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people listening, and I know even

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Speaker 1: for me is that you you know, you understand or

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Speaker 1: you certainly find out about these different decisions, but you

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Speaker 1: do wonder what kind of impact they're going to have

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Speaker 1: longer term.

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Speaker 5: It's not a seismic shift in my view, and RAS

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Speaker 5: might disagree. In some ways. It is a seismic shift.

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Speaker 5: And I'm here because I'm a bit of a Justice

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Speaker 5: Bromberg groupie, and he's known for some really interesting decisions.

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Speaker 5: For example, the Sham decision that found that a Minister

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Speaker 5: owed future generation's a duty of care in considering the environment,

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Speaker 5: and this is also a really brave decision on his

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Speaker 5: part on the part of a single judge of the

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Speaker 5: Federal Court. Alsop in his statement saying he could understand

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Speaker 5: and see why it needed an expedated appeal. To me,

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Speaker 5: looks like he's almost already thinking, you know, a little

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Speaker 5: bit more pro industry and balancing the decision more in

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Speaker 5: his mind on that side of the equation. But I

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Speaker 5: think what's what's really great about this is it it

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Speaker 5: is it is. It's tiny shift. It's a tremor, maybe

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Speaker 5: not a seismic shift, but those those small shifts move

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Speaker 5: us forward a lot, so these decisions are super important

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Speaker 5: from that perspective.

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Speaker 1: Well, I really appreciate you both coming in this morning

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Speaker 1: and giving us a bit of an understanding, certainly from

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Speaker 1: that legal perspective, about how it's all going to work.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so very much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Charles Dalwin, University Professor of Law, Elizabeth Spencer and also

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Speaker 1: course coordinator and lecturer in law Ros Vickers, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much.

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Speaker 4: Thank you