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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson, the

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Speaker 2: founder of Happy Families dot com dot au. This time

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Speaker 2: last week we had a conversation with doctor Jennifer Finlayson Fife.

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Speaker 2: She is a sex therapist relationship expert, and it was

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Speaker 2: just such a great discussion that we were having. Because

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Speaker 2: we enjoyed the discussion so much, I kept it going,

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Speaker 2: but we've spread it out across two episodes. So today

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Speaker 2: is part two of my discussion with doctor Jennifer Finlayson Fife.

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Speaker 2: If you missed part one, I strongly strongly encourage you

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Speaker 2: to go back to last Wednesday and have listened to

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Speaker 2: that before you dive into this one today. But if

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Speaker 2: you would like to know what you can do to

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Speaker 2: improve your intimate life, this is the podcast episode for you.

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Speaker 2: A quick word before we dive into this episode. The

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Speaker 2: content of this episode is probably not for younger kids.

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Speaker 2: You want to consider who's listening. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Let's begin by asking doctor Finleyson fIF how does parenting

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Speaker 2: impact sex drive.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I think yes, you're absolutely right, because

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Speaker 1: when I'm going back to that example of a resentment

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Speaker 1: inducing dynamic, give me two minutes, right or whatever? That

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Speaker 1: is antithetical to play. Okay. Now, some people it might

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Speaker 1: be like, I don't know how to play if she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want it, or you know, I hate the way

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Speaker 1: he is sexual with me. How are supposed to play

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Speaker 1: when I just makes my skin crawl? Whatever? So there

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Speaker 1: are often issues going on in the marriage that need

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Speaker 1: to be adressed for there to be a deeper sense

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Speaker 1: of freedom. But more specific to your question is how

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Speaker 1: is parenting sometimes antithetical to good sex? I think is

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Speaker 1: what you're asking because a lot of times our notion

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Speaker 1: of what it is to be a parent is about

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Speaker 1: responsibility and duty, and the kids come first, and you

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Speaker 1: know we have a responsibility to them. We shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: up here playing because that's we're leaving our posts. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And there's some truth in that, especially if you have

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Speaker 1: very young children. You don't obviously want to be negligent

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Speaker 1: or or leave your post. But a lot of times

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Speaker 1: are anxiety is about sexuality and our fear of letting

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Speaker 1: ourselves be a whole person will or our notions of

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Speaker 1: what a good parent is, which is in self sacrificing

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Speaker 1: to a fault, interferes with our living a joyful, full life,

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Speaker 1: and I think one of the best ways to be

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Speaker 1: a good parent is to model a joyful, full life.

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Speaker 1: It gives your permission to your gives permission to your

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Speaker 1: kids to ultimately do the same. It allows them to

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Speaker 1: trust and believe in the good of a relationship and

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Speaker 1: of sexuality. But we can readily make every demand on

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Speaker 1: our time, every possibility in which we should be sacrificing

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Speaker 1: for our kids, really interfere with creating a space in

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Speaker 1: which the couple itself can thrive. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: exceptionally important.

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Speaker 2: So how do we get there? We've talked about creating

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Speaker 2: a relationship where specifically the man doesn't think that he's

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Speaker 2: the main show, but instead that he elevates his wife

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Speaker 2: or partner so that she becomes taking care of I guess,

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Speaker 2: and has that opportunity to be desired. We've talked about

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Speaker 2: the different kinds of desire. You've highlighted the importance of play.

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Speaker 2: How does an exhausted couple who's running around after the kids,

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Speaker 2: trying to juggle two jobs meet inflationary pressures and mortgage

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Speaker 2: payments and rents and all those sorts of things. How

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Speaker 2: do they find the capacity to elevate one another and

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Speaker 2: be responsive to one another in the wonderful, intimate way

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Speaker 2: that you've described, when everything just feels so pressured all

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Speaker 2: the time and everyone's exhausted and struggling.

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Speaker 1: If you think of it as one more thing we

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Speaker 1: need to do, Okay, we got to make time because

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Speaker 1: that's okay. Well, now you've just added another thing to

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Speaker 1: your list that could easily be related to as another

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Speaker 1: version of depletion.

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Speaker 2: It feels burdensome, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: It can now. I think if you think of it

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Speaker 1: more in terms of we have to have sex, okay,

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Speaker 1: or else our relationships over, I think it instead of

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Speaker 1: thinking of it like that, is how do we create

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Speaker 1: a space of rejuvenation for the two of us? Is

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Speaker 1: there a way to carve out an opportunity to be

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Speaker 1: a couple? Right? And I remember in the thick of

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Speaker 1: when my kids were very small, I had a special

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Speaker 1: needs child. It was it was hard to justify doing

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Speaker 1: anything for myself right because, and legitimately so, it was

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Speaker 1: intensive time. There was a lot to be done. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, keeping a marriage and a sense

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Speaker 1: of self strong enough during that difficult time means it's

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Speaker 1: worth sacrificing for and making space to go and watch

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Speaker 1: that movie together, go get dinner, even if it's once

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Speaker 1: every four months, but have a meaning during times when

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Speaker 1: it's economically or logistically difficult, to try and create space

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Speaker 1: to remember you're a person, you're a woman, you're a

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Speaker 1: man first, right a couple seconds, and parents third, And

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Speaker 1: to just cultivate that space to remember, because it also

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Speaker 1: turns you into a better parent and a better partner.

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Speaker 1: You know. I remember during a time when my kids

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Speaker 1: were it was it was an intensive period, right, you know.

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Speaker 1: I was home, I had a specialty child, I was pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and I had an additional child. And I love architecture

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Speaker 1: and design, and we were going to renovate our house,

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Speaker 1: and so I remember feeling kind of guilty leaving my

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Speaker 1: kids with a sitter and going out to choose countertops.

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Speaker 1: But it was so thrilling to do that, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like it's like I loved that. I love the design

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Speaker 1: part of it, the creative part of it, than the

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Speaker 1: experience of having a kitchen that would actually be functional.

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Speaker 1: And I remember coming back from those two hours away

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Speaker 1: and thinking, look, they had two great hours with the

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Speaker 1: babysitter who loved playing with them. I came back feeling

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Speaker 1: filled up by this experience of an accessing another part

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Speaker 1: of myself, and I was more excited to see them

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Speaker 1: than I would have been. Right, my point is, it

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Speaker 1: was like, it's not a zero sum game, and so

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Speaker 1: cultivating this is not related to a couple, but cultivating

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Speaker 1: time to be with one another, to be a partnership,

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Speaker 1: facilitate strength in the other domain.

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Speaker 2: Who would have thought that kitchen countertops could be so

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Speaker 2: stimulating feel good.

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Speaker 1: Totally, these are some nice countertops.

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Speaker 2: I'm telling turning does really strange things to Fayful. It

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Speaker 2: really does, Jennifer. I have two more questions for you.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 2: One of them is a really practical question. I receive

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Speaker 2: a lot of emails from people when they want us

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Speaker 2: to answer questions on the podcast, and around about a

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Speaker 2: year ago, I got an email. I don't even have

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Speaker 2: access to it anymore, but I chose not to answer

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Speaker 2: it because I just didn't really know where to go

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Speaker 2: with it. I couldn't see it turning into a full

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Speaker 2: podcast episode. It was a little bit too It was

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Speaker 2: just what I thought would be a two or three

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Speaker 2: minute answer, and that was it. But now that I've

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Speaker 2: got you here, I think that you're the perfect person

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Speaker 2: to answer it. And the question was, and I'm paraphrasing,

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Speaker 2: A mum wrote in and said that her child, her

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Speaker 2: six year old child, had walked into the bedroom, the

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Speaker 2: door wasn't locked, her and her husband were being intimate

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Speaker 2: at the time, and she just wanted to know what

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Speaker 2: do I say? Do I ignore it, do I pretend

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Speaker 2: it didn't happen? How do I respond to this? I'd

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Speaker 2: love to get your take on that before I sort

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Speaker 2: of wrap up the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a good question. I mean, it depends a

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Speaker 1: little bit on First of all, I do think you

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Speaker 1: should dress because your child is going to be confused

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Speaker 1: and might even be afraid. Right, and because it can

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Speaker 1: depends on what exactly they saw.

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Speaker 2: Was pretty skinny on details there, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Remember a coworker of mine was saying that his child

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Speaker 1: walked in and and and so we went back into

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Speaker 1: the bedroom and he asked his son his like, I

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Speaker 1: think it was about six year old, five year old,

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Speaker 1: you know, if he had seen mommy and daddy. And

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Speaker 1: he said yes, And he said, were you doing push

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Speaker 1: ups on top of mommy. Okay, so is the way

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Speaker 1: of making sense of it, right, And so I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to talk about it and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's maybe a little bit confusing, but this is

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Speaker 1: a way of mom and dad loving each other. It's

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Speaker 1: a way, it's like a grown up kind of hug

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Speaker 1: that's pleasurable and enjoyable, even if it's hard to understand,

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Speaker 1: and someday you will understand it. So partly why I

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Speaker 1: think is important is just helping their minds to kind

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Speaker 1: of make some sense of it at a level that

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Speaker 1: they can understand, and even to give them the caveat

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Speaker 1: that someday you'll understand it better. But this is something

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Speaker 1: it's a way of mom and dad being close, expressing

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Speaker 1: love for one another. And that I'm sorry that you

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Speaker 1: that you witnessed it because it can be a little confusing,

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Speaker 1: but someday you'll understand better what it is and why

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Speaker 1: it's such a favorable thing. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so presumably if your child were older, let's say,

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Speaker 2: twelve fourteen, something like that, and they stumbled into the bedroom, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't you wouldn't necessarily apologize that it's confusing you

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Speaker 2: would just say we need to lock the door more often.

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Speaker 2: We didn't realize you were going to be home, and

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Speaker 2: obviously you know that we love each other a lot,

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Speaker 2: like is that yeah, you kind of.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm sorry you had to experience it, not

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Speaker 1: because there's anything bad about it, but because it's a

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Speaker 1: boundary that you know, you know, kids want to maybe

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Speaker 1: know their parents love each other, but don't want to

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Speaker 1: witness that love. Right.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for thanks for sharing that. So I guess the

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Speaker 2: last thing that I want to ask you was what

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Speaker 2: do you wish more people understood? Just in a nutshell

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Speaker 2: the top three things, or maybe just the top one thing.

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Speaker 2: What do you wish more people understood when it comes

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Speaker 2: to a healthy intimate life.

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Speaker 1: Well, just that sexuality and desire are important in a

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Speaker 1: marriage unless it's been explicitly negotiated out of the marriage.

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Speaker 1: So that is to say, in modern marriage, we marry

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Speaker 1: under the assumption of desire, and that's how we choose

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Speaker 1: a partner, usually unless we're in an arranged marriage or

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Speaker 1: some other non typical Western marriage. That is, of all

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Speaker 1: my options, I desire you, and I want to bring

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Speaker 1: my desire and sexuality here and expect you to do

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Speaker 1: the same, to not bring it outside of the marriage.

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Speaker 1: But then, while that often feels good to us at

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Speaker 1: its inception, right especially our partner bringing their sexuality nowhere

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Speaker 1: else at least, the challenges of creating a good sexual

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Speaker 1: relationship and creating something that is more intimate, that is,

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Speaker 1: that allows us to grow into people capable of creating

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Speaker 1: a mutually satisfying sexual relationship are often challenging enough that

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Speaker 1: we start to neglect addressing that relationship and we think, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is just superficial and we're no longer twenty and

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Speaker 1: the kids are more important, And a way of dealing

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Speaker 1: with some of our anxieties around this is to be

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Speaker 1: negligent or indulgent towards it and not treat it with

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Speaker 1: the respect it deserves. And I'm not saying, oh, gosh,

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Speaker 1: that means you should just put out because otherwise he's

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Speaker 1: going to go. I'm not that idea. But how do

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Speaker 1: we attend to what's going on here to keep this

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Speaker 1: relationship thriving and keep its foundations stable even in the

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Speaker 1: many other good endeavors that we do. And because it's

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Speaker 1: a part of its foundational creation, it's worthy of our

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Speaker 1: engagement it's worthy of our attention to address it, and

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Speaker 1: it's good for our children when we.

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Speaker 2: Do that, and it's good for us, good for our family.

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Speaker 2: It's just absolutely ye Doctor Jennifer Finlayson Fife. The podcast

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Speaker 2: that you can hear, it's literally when this one drops

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Speaker 2: into my feed every week or every fortnotther whenever it lands.

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Speaker 2: Obviously it's it's not one hundred percent weekly, but whenever

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Speaker 2: it drops in, it's the one that I listened to immediately.

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Speaker 2: The podcast is called Conversations with Doctor Jennifer. Look it

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Speaker 2: up wherever you get your podcasts. On top of that, though, Jennifer,

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Speaker 2: you also have another podcast that people can subscribe to

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Speaker 2: to get some much more I guess, in depth content.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So it's just called Room for Two. And

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Speaker 1: I'm working with couples who have pseudonyms and there's some

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Speaker 1: voice distortion, but they're bringing up really typical marital issues

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Speaker 1: around emotional intimacy, sexual intimacy, issues within laws and itssues

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Speaker 1: with finances and so on. And I'm working with that

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Speaker 1: couple for others to listen in, and people have found

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Speaker 1: it to be really helpful because it allows them the

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Speaker 1: chance to listen in and both find it normalizing, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that is so us. We do the

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Speaker 1: same thing. But then also to hear my input and

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Speaker 1: get that vicarious help start to see this is what

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Speaker 1: we're doing in our sexual relationship and this is why

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Speaker 1: it's not been going so well for us, and hey,

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Speaker 1: I realize I need to change this part of what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing. And so it's a it's been a So

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Speaker 1: it's a valuable tool for learning how to be a

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Speaker 1: better partner, how to create a better sexual relationship, and.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I love it. So conversations with doctor Jennifer

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Speaker 2: and Room for two we will link to both of

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Speaker 2: those in the show notes. In addition, when I was

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Speaker 2: emailing backwards and Folds with Christy, your wonderful assistant, she

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Speaker 2: indicated that you wanted to offer a freebie, a very

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Speaker 2: brief free course to help couples who have enjoyed this conversation.

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Speaker 1: So it's just something we give out periodically. It's a

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Speaker 1: e course. It's about thirty minutes long, called tennists that

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Speaker 1: are destroying your sex life. So if you found it helpful,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of right. Think about this. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of ideas, you know, one of being like sex

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Speaker 1: is for the man, Okay. So it's helping people understand

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Speaker 1: some of these inherited ideas that they may unwittingly be

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Speaker 1: living out but is actually undermining the very thing they're

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Speaker 1: trying to make better. So it's a free course and

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Speaker 1: I think if you submit an email, we'll send you

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Speaker 1: that course.

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Speaker 2: That e course for free, fabulous Ten Myths that Are

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Speaker 2: Killing Your Sex Life. We will again provide all the

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Speaker 2: information necessary for that in the show notes. What a

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Speaker 2: great conversation. I think it's been so valuable. Great to

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Speaker 2: be with you. Thank you again, doctor.

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Speaker 1: Jenner, thanks for having me my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Finlayson Fife is a licensed clinical professional counselor, relationship

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Speaker 2: and sexuality educator with a PhD in Counseling Psychology from

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Speaker 2: Boston College. You can find more about her at Finlayson

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Speaker 2: hyphen Fife. That's Finlayson Hyphenfife dot com. Finlayson hyphenfif dot com.

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Speaker 2: We'll link to it in the show notes, as well

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Speaker 2: as her two podcasts and her free course Ten Myths

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Speaker 2: that Are Killing Your Sex Life. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 2: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce

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Speaker 2: is our executive producer and for more about making your

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Speaker 2: family happier, stay listening to a Happy Families Podcasts for

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Speaker 2: more tomorrow, and check out our Facebook page Doctor Justin

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Speaker 2: Colson's Happy Families