1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Now, as I spoke about a veteran police officer was 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: suspended for publicly criticizing how his commissioners had treated Constable 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: Zachary Rolf over the fatal shooting of Kumenjai Walker over 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: the weekend, we know The Australian reported that Sergeant Mark Casey, 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: who has served in the Northern Territory Police for twenty 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: five years, said he was devastated and terrified after being 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: suspended without pay on Saturday night for alleged serious breaches 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: of discipline related to his personal behavior and public views. Now, 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: this suspension notice follows an opinion piece which he had 10 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: written in The NT Independent in which he wrote about 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: his concerns relating to the authoritarian management as a whole 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: and specifically in relation to the charging of Constable Zachary Rolf. Now, 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: in addition to this story, we also know that there 14 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: has been absolutely tragic news yet another death of an officer. 15 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: A much loved and highly respected officer took his life. 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: It is the third officer in three months. Now it's 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: prompting many people to question what support is being provided 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: to our Northern Territory Police and if there needs to 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: be some kind of inquiry in this space. Now joining 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: me on the line is the Northern Territory Police Association 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: President Paul Mchughue. Good morning to you, Paul, Good morning Katy. Paul. Firstly, 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, we know there has been another tragic 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 1: death over the weekend. A highly respected and much loved 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: officer took his life. Paul, this is an incredibly tragic situation. 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: It's you know, it's a tragedy, katy of the highest degree. 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: I mean, this guy was in the job for twenty six, 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: twenty seven years, a veteran of the police force, gave 28 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: his heart and soul to the community and obviously had 29 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: been struggling for some time and it was publicly made 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: people aware of that, and despite all the support networks 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: for him, sadly he did take his life over the 32 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: weekend and many of us knew him very well, in fact, 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: went through training with him, and it was you know, 34 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: it's taken its toll on the police force and everyone's 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: really gathering around at the moment and just trying to 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: make sure, you know, everyone's okay, because you know, we're 37 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: one big family essentially, and you know, this hits home 38 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: when we've now had three in such a short period 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: of time, two current serving and one retired, and it's 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 2: tragic and we need to understand why. 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: Well, three officers in as many months, I know that 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: you said, two current serving, one retired. Are we doing 43 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: enough to support our police? 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, obviously it's been an enormous couple of years. 45 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: But even aside from what's taken place in the last 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,559 Speaker 2: couple of years, you know, policing takes its toll regardless 47 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: of COVID and all the other requirements of being a 48 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: frontline police officer. Police deal with the very worst in 49 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: our community. They deal with some horrendous matters, and they 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: go and deal with jobs that they see things you 51 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: just cannot unsee. They live and breathe it every day 52 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: and they go home and take that home every single day, 53 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: and eventually, over many, many years, it just simply takes 54 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: its toll, and then people make decisions that perhaps they 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: wouldn't have made if they weren't unwell. And we need 56 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 2: to make sure we're doing everything we can, and Association 57 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 2: has been saying for years there needs to be a 58 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: heavy investment at the front end of people's careers and 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: the police to have those supports in place. And we 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: do have a review that we're waiting to see the 61 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: outcomes of because there has to be some improvements in 62 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: this area in terms of the support available for our police, 63 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: not just when they're in the job, but when they 64 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: retired as well, because you know, it doesn't just stop 65 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: because you retire. Those things stay with you forever. 66 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: So, Paul, that review that you mentioned just a moment ago, 67 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: is that a review that's been conducted by the Police 68 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: Association or is it something more broad So we called. 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: For the government for the last several years to do 70 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 2: an independent review and they agreed at our conference last 71 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: year to undertake that independent reviews. Some people were engaged 72 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: through government to undertake that and we are expecting to 73 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: see some results of that. And that eventually did include 74 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: a survey of the membership, which we understand was very 75 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: well received and heavily responded to. So we're very keen 76 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: to see the outcome of what people said in there 77 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: and what they feel they need. Is at the end 78 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: of the day, they're the ones on the front line 79 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: dealing with things day to day. 80 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: So from your understanding right now, where is that review 81 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: ash does it sit with the Minister's office or where 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 1: does it sit. 83 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: Currently? The outcome of that review and recommendations I believe 84 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: sit with the Police Commissioner and his representatives, and there 85 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: aren't expected to see us later this week to provide 86 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: some outcomes of that review. So as soon as we 87 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: know further, we're very keen to tell our membership because 88 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: ultimately they're the ones that have been calling for this. 89 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: We've been asking for it for a very long time, 90 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: and in our view, you know, the government's successive haven't 91 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: done enough anywhere near enough in this space for many, 92 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 2: many years, so we want to see some positive steps 93 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: in that place. 94 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: Paul, Is that going to be enough? I mean, I 95 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: think all of us agree that this is an incredibly 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: tough job. You know that certainly better than I do. 97 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: Every police officer out there listening this morning knows that 98 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: better than I do. But some of what our officers 99 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: see is is horrific, to say the least. Like you said, 100 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: they deal with the worst in society on a day 101 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: to day basis, and when we've got a situation where 102 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: officers are taking their own lives, I mean, is a 103 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: review going to be enough? 104 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: Well, we hope out of this review comes more investment 105 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: from government at the front end of members' careers and 106 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: at the end of their careers, and in fact throughout 107 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: their entire career. And I know I might be harping 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: on this point, but we need to make sure there 109 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 2: are sufficient services in place and people feel comfortable coming 110 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: to those services, either internally or externally, because not everyone 111 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: wants to come and see a support person who works 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: for the police. And that's nothing against those people. They 113 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: do a great job. There simply hasn't been enough of them. 114 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: But on many occasions members want to go and see 115 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: people externally and they should be able to do that freely, 116 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: and that should extend beyond their careers, longer than the 117 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: period it does at the moment, which I believe is 118 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: around six months, because it doesn't just cut off at 119 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: that period, and we need to make sure we've got 120 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: those go support networks in place. 121 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there absolutely needs to be support for our officers, 122 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: whether you're serving or you know, in those years after. 123 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: I think there needs to be some support there. I 124 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: don't know exactly how it works, but from the sound 125 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: of things, we need to be having a serious look 126 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: into this. As you've said, that review is underway, but 127 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: let's hope that we very quickly see some outcomes and 128 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: we can move upon those to make sure that the 129 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: mental health of our police forces, you know, where it 130 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: needs to be and that support is being provided. 131 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent, Katie, And I mean, you know, 132 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: as we've as we've touched on, you know, we've got 133 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: many different reasons why why mental health and police officers impacted. 134 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: It's not just the jobs the visit but and have 135 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: to deal with every single day, but it's also internal 136 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: mechanisms and also you know, resourcing pressures which we know 137 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: are very high at the moment on our front line, 138 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: and that really affects your mental health as much as 139 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: anything else as well. 140 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: Paul, I want to talk about another situation that's unfolded 141 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: over the course of the weekend. We know this situation 142 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: unfolded with Mark Casey. He wrote an opinion piece on 143 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: the weekend with the NT Independent and was suspended without 144 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: pay very soon after. Have you spoken to Sergeant Casey 145 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: and how is he going right now? 146 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Look at stuff times. I mean, obviously, you know, 147 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: we know we've all seen what was written online over 148 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: the weekend, and today obviously is the very first day. 149 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: You know, we've been able to approach the department and 150 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: speak to them about it. But we have been speaking 151 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: with mister Casey over the weekend. We're helping him through 152 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: what's a very difficult time. And you know, the bigger 153 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: picture is why did he feel the need to do that? 154 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: And obviously, you know that's all going to come out 155 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: through the internal processes that are now underway. But of course, 156 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: you know, it marks another one who's been in the 157 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: job for many, many years. He's been in the job 158 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: for over two decades. He's put his career, put his up, 159 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: personal life, you know, on hold many times to the 160 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: benefit of the community. He's had to go and deal 161 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: with some horrendous situations. He's worked in major crash and 162 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: we all know what some of those jobs would be 163 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: like to have to go and deal with. And you 164 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: know what support has been in place for him over 165 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 2: his career, and he's just one example. So to speak 166 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 2: out like he has raises a bigger question from my. 167 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: Perspective, and what do you think that question is? 168 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: Well, I guess why do you feel the need to 169 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: do it? And obviously he's touched on in that article. 170 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: The zach Rolf Matta now you know, we know there's 171 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: a lot of opinion around that. We know there's a 172 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: lot of opinion on social media. I don't react to 173 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: matters on social media. I'm sorry, it's you know, it 174 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: can be a poison chalice. But certainly the fact he's 175 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: touched on that has obviously been a trigger for him 176 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: to undertake that article. We've made our position quite clear 177 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: on the roof matter. We've undertaken an extensive statement following 178 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: the outcome of that trial, and we've now also said 179 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: there are internal matters to deal with in a coronial 180 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: to take place, and we also know the IKAK are 181 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: doing an investigation. So our position is quite clear on 182 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: that we need to allow those processes to take their course. 183 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 2: But Mark's frustrated. There's no doubt he was frustrated to 184 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: pen an article like that and then that media outlet 185 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: to actually publish that, potentially understanding the consequences of doing so. Well, 186 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: there's questions in that as well. 187 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: Do you think that it's appropriate that he's been suspended 188 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: now without pay? 189 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's obviously, you know, a debate. It is 190 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: something that's allowable under the Police Administration Act. But the 191 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: fairness of it and and I guess the reasons behind 192 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 2: why Mark did what he did, the empathy and and 193 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: and you know, understanding his situation, his personal situation and 194 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: taking that into account and suspending without pay, certainly from 195 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: our perspective, is harsh. We're not condaining what he did. 196 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: We know he's come out and made some statements there publicly, 197 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: and we're now dealing with the fallout from that. But 198 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: but to suspend him without pay was very harsh in 199 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: our view. And as I said, you know, today is 200 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: the first opportunity we'll have to speak with the department 201 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 2: about that decision and whether we can get that reverse. 202 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we have seen a situation over the years 203 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: where there have been officers who've been charged with criminal 204 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: offenses who have still been paid. 205 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely right, And obviously we're out of the decision makers 206 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: when it comes to suspensions, and obviously we have to 207 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: go on a case by case basis. And you're right, 208 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: you'll compare some criminal matters, for example, where members were 209 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: suspended with pay. Now this matter speaking publicly about his 210 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 2: concerns about the police force generally and matters in the 211 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: police force, and suspended without pay. But ultimately that's a 212 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: decision from the Police Executive and we'll take that up 213 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: with them today, Paul. 214 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people have read this piece, 215 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: but he did wrote that he, you know, there is 216 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: the appearance that there'd been deception, dishonesty, or at the 217 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: very least myths truths in relation to the circumstances and 218 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: the decision to charge Zachary Rolf with murder so quickly 219 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: after the event. You know. He went on to say 220 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: that zach was unanimously found not guilty of murder as 221 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: we all know, and two alternate charges by the Supreme Court, 222 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: and went on to say that mister Chalkred stated that 223 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: he'd kept the investigation of the shooting at arm's length. 224 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: He's questioned how when apparently, or as he's written, that 225 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: there was a media release approved the day before he 226 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: was appointed. Paul, he makes points which so many people 227 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: are still questioning at this point. I know that within 228 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: the rank and file, so many people are still questioning 229 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: at this point as I understand it. There has also 230 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: been three police regions now that are voted for the 231 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: Northern Territory Police Association to hold a territory wide vote 232 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: of no confidence in the police Commissioner Jamie Chalkrind also 233 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: in the Deputy Murray small page. Firstly, I mean is 234 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: that the case? Have they voted this way? Yeah? 235 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: Obviously we are governed by the associations like any other 236 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 2: union or association. We're governed by a constitution and by laws. 237 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: And you know, we have twelve regions, Katie, throughout the 238 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: entire Northern Territory and they're all run by elected officials 239 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: who manage their meetings, you know, whenever they hold those meetings, 240 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: and they're free to discuss and pass motions as they 241 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: see fit to bring forward. Now, our processes and procedures 242 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: are similar to many others, and you know those motions 243 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: that you speak about, you know, they haven't even come 244 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: across the desk of the NTPA Executive yet. Where our 245 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: job is not to stifle such a Our job is 246 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: to provide guidance and advice and we do that and 247 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: regardless of our views, those motions can come forward. But 248 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: at this stage they haven't been considered by the NTPA Executive. 249 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: But certainly those motions have gone through a few of 250 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 2: our regents today. 251 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: But so Paul, by the sounds of it, three of 252 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: them have decided that they want this vote of no 253 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: confidence in the Police Commissioner Jamie Chalker. Is this vote 254 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: going to happen, Well. 255 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: That'll be debated once we've considered it through the executive 256 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: and then obviously and your conference is just around the 257 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: corner a couple of months away, so it's something that 258 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: needs to be debated as a whole. Obviously, this has 259 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 2: been driven from the members. They're frustrated on the ground 260 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: for a variety of reasons, and they're taking that frustration 261 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: out through those motions and certainly expressing that to us 262 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 2: as an executive. So that's certainly something that's still to 263 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: play out. And as I said, it hasn't been considered, 264 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: so no decision has been made at this time. 265 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: But so if that vote were to happen, it wouldn't 266 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: happen until August. 267 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: That's that's correct at the earliest. 268 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: At the earliest. Are you concerned that the force is 269 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: losing confidence in management at the moment? 270 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, obviously it's a it's a challenging time and obviously, 271 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: you know we've had a whole bunch of things go 272 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: on as a police force over the last couple of years. 273 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: We know all too well COVID and the ROLF matter 274 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: and many other you know, I guess decisions that have 275 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: been made through the last couple of years and from 276 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: police management, and people are you know, are affected by that. 277 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: They're affected on the ground. But it's not always about 278 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: the police management. I want to say, you know, there 279 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: have been decisions made by the Northern Territory government that 280 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: have failed the police force. They failed to recruit for 281 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: an entire year back at the end of their first 282 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: term a government Kadi and we're seeing the fallout from 283 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: that right now and that's having an impact on our 284 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: members are feeling on the ground and they're taking out 285 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: their frustrations through through these motions and through through management 286 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: of the police force. And and I've got I say, 287 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: you know, when we can't get a van on the 288 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: road other than over time of a night shift, you 289 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: know who's responsible for that. I mean, it is the 290 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: government government failure for that. It's not necessarily the police 291 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: force's failure. They have a finite amount of resources and 292 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: they've been asked to do an enormous amount over the 293 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: last couple of years and government needs to put their 294 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: hand up and take some responsibility for that failure. 295 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Are we in a situation at the moment where the 296 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: Northern Territory Police Force are we are we in crisis 297 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: point here? 298 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's pretty difficult to tell, but certainly, 299 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: you know, the feedback we're getting is they're they're they're 300 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: they're unwell. The police force is unwell. It's struggling to 301 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: keep up with day to day requirements. The expectations put 302 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: on them over the last couple of years has been 303 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: more than than I've ever seen over thirty years. And 304 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: I know we still hear the government say we've got 305 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: more budget than ever before and more resources than ever before. 306 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: That is simply not reflecting on the front line, you know, resourcing, 307 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: and that is making our police force unwell. We've got 308 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: people taking sickly because they need a break. We know, 309 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: we've seen the consequences of when people get really unwell, 310 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: and for heaven's sake, we do not need any more 311 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: of that because our police force is hurting right now. 312 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: Paul, What do we need to do right now? Because 313 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: obviously you've got some within the force who think that 314 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: there needs to be a vote of no confidence in 315 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police Commissioner and commission a small page. 316 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: You know, you've got others who don't think that the 317 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: Northern Territory government has managed things well at all over 318 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: the last few years. The reality is here. You know, 319 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: what is going to happen? What options do the rank 320 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: and file have right now, right now? 321 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: And heaven forbid. I mean, we have some incredibly dedicated 322 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: people in the police force who don't want to let 323 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: their mates down, so they are turning up on over 324 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: time nearly every single day to make sure there is 325 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: response availability to the community. If that ceases, we are 326 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 2: in a world of pain. We need the Minister to 327 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 2: stop her silence. We need her to come out and 328 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: strongly in support of working with us, working with the 329 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: Commissioner to come up with a staffing solution which isn't 330 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: only fit for purpose, but it's actually fully funded and resourced. 331 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: And that means opening the books, seeing what the requirements 332 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 2: of our job is, seeing what numbers we've got and 333 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 2: where they are, and work with us. Stop pointing the fingers, 334 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: stop saying you know it's not our responsibility. Everyone needs 335 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 2: to work together to sort this out because the police 336 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: force is hurting. The frustrations are coming through meetings the 337 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: frustrations are coming from members needing to take sick leave, 338 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: to get a break and worse, and we don't want 339 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: that anymore. The police force needs to make sure they've 340 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: got sufficient resources to do what they're being asked to do, 341 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: and that has to start from the top, from the Minister, 342 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: the Commissioner and working together with us to make that happen. 343 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: Paul, is the police Minister's position tenable? 344 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: Look, our members it quite clear they haven't heard our 345 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: minister for some time speak loudly about what's going on 346 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: in the police force. We've raised our concerns directly with her. 347 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: She knows how our position on that. We've been asking 348 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: for a long time, for example, for extra support in 349 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: terms of resourcing, extra support in terms of amending legislation 350 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: on when people are being assaulted in the police force, 351 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 2: and right now we haven't seen it. We haven't seen that, 352 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 2: and we need to make sure that she is listening 353 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: because our members are making it quite clear they're unhappy 354 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: at the moment. 355 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: So it sounds as though the rank and file questioning 356 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: whether her position is tenable. 357 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, obviously, you know, as I said, they are 358 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 2: frustrated and they're taking that frustration out, not just on 359 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 2: the Commissioner, not just on the minister, but you know 360 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: the NTPA as well. I mean, we are copying it 361 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: as well. And our job is to simply reflect what 362 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: the members are saying, and we are doing that with 363 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 2: the Minister, we are doing that with the Senior Police Executive, 364 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: and we will be criticis eyes for that, no doubt, 365 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: and that's fine. But members need to know they have 366 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 2: a voice. They need to know they can stand up 367 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: and say what they need to say because without that, 368 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: and if they are in fear of doing that, then 369 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 2: you know, we are never going to fix what's going 370 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: on at the moment. And that is a resourcing issue, 371 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 2: causing untold health issues to our members on the road, 372 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 2: and they need to be able to have a voice, 373 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: to be able to express those concerns and get things fixed, 374 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 2: because if we don't, we're in a world of pain. 375 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: Paul, we have just received a message from one of 376 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: our listeners. It says there appears to be an unwillingness 377 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: to criticize or push a no confidence motion against the 378 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,959 Speaker 1: Commissioner Jamie Chalker by yourself, Paul Mecheue, in recent months, 379 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: are you compromised or have you exposed yourself in any 380 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: way with this current executive that you're not willing to 381 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: carry out are the wishes of the Northern Territory Police 382 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: Association members. That's a question from one of our listeners 383 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: this morning. 384 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: You know that's just completely untrue. I mean, our job 385 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: is to put those motions to our full regions to 386 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: have a discussion about now we are directed by those regions. 387 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: Just because a motion passes through a regional branch motion, Katie, 388 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 2: doesn't mean it happens overnight. It doesn't mean it won't happen, 389 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: but it also may not happen. You know, it is 390 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 2: absolute nonsense to suggests that we are compromised or we 391 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: have been critical of the Commission in the past. He's 392 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: made it quite clear that he's been unhappy with us 393 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 2: in the past. But it's all about making sure we're 394 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: looking at what the big picture is, and that is 395 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: making sure we've got what we need for the reason 396 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: for the troops on the ground, because as I said, 397 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: we've got to stop pointing fingers. We've got to start 398 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: working together. But we won't hold back if we need to, 399 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 2: and right now that discussion hasn't had an opportunity to 400 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: take place, and until that has we won't be we 401 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: won't be doing that survey until such time. 402 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: Paul, is the police Commissioner's position tenable because it does 403 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: seem as though there are a lot within the force 404 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: right now who have lost confidence. 405 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, obviously we're getting some feedback through through through 406 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: our regional branches and that debate will take place. I've 407 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: said that, you know, many many times, and you know 408 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: this stage, and I've made it publicly clear not long 409 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: after the role of matter that you know, there are 410 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 2: a lot of opinion around the commissioner at the time. 411 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 2: We've said that until such time as people provide evidence 412 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: to us that he has done some wrongdoing in terms 413 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: of that matter, then you know, the i K investigation 414 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 2: has to take its course until such time as there 415 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 2: is some wrongdoing that he may be accountable for. You know, 416 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: he's still the Commissioner of Police and there's nothing else. 417 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: You know, we don't manage the government, we don't manage 418 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 2: the police force. So it's not like the nt PA 419 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: can certainly walk in and say it's your time's up, Commissioner, 420 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: move on. We can only express the views of the 421 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 2: of the membership, and that's what we will do when 422 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: we've had the opportunity to debate that matter. 423 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: Well, Police Association President Cue, we are going to have 424 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: to leave it there. I appreciate your time this morning, 425 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: thanks for speaking with us. 426 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, thank you.