1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: We know that the Northern Territory government has entered into 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: a consultation process from what I can gather, to introduce 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: licensing for commercial contractors, introducing commercial builder registration and bringing 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: in continuous professional development for those in the industry. Joining 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: me on the line right now to tell us a 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: little bit more about the situation is Master Builders and 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Ties Executive Director Dave Malone. 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Dave. 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 3: Good morning Katie. 10 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: How are you not too bad? 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: Dave? 12 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: What do these changes mean for the industry? 13 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 3: Well, Katie, the government's out at the moment with a 14 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 3: consultation paper which contains two options around licensing for commercial contractors, 15 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: so people who do office fit outs right through to 16 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 3: shared high rises, airport control towers, hangers, the whole up. 17 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 3: And what they're looking to do is to require licensing 18 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 3: for all work over a certain value. So that means 19 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 3: pretty much. You know, eighty percent of our industry is 20 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 3: commercial contracting, so about eighty percent of the industry. Will 21 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: we move into a licensing raging sometimes in the near future. 22 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: What is that going to mean for those that are 23 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: engaged in these commercial contracts? 24 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: Is it going to make things more difficult? Dave? 25 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 3: Well, if I could take a step back, I would 26 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: say Master Builders has been a long supporter of the 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 3: idea of having licensing because it does provide a mechanism 28 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: to demonstrate that people can do the work they're contracted 29 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 3: to do, and with CPD it does encourage people to 30 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 3: continue to develop their skills. The issue that we have 31 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: is that they've chosen an academic pathway only. And so 32 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 3: you know, for an industry where everybody gets their job 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: their skills on the job, this is a trade career, 34 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 3: just like so many vocational activities in Australia, and you know, 35 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 3: we should have two pathways in our view. One should 36 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 3: recognize your experience and your skills from on the job 37 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 3: and one you can choose to go to UNI if 38 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: you'd like. 39 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: Hang on a sex, So are you saying that for 40 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: some of our builders, for some of the people engaged 41 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: in this work, they are going to need to go 42 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: through university to get the qualifications that they're required to 43 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: be able to do commercial fit outs and commercial jobs. 44 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely, so they're suggesting diplomas or degrees for particular types 45 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: of construction work, you know, for commercial construction work, and 46 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: we're saying, hang on the reason people got a trade 47 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: in the first place, is because they weren't so much 48 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 3: interested in academic work. They were hands on people. I've 49 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: got members who will have thirty or forty years in 50 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: terms of experience in the industry, who will have to 51 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: prove now that they have the skills to match a university's. 52 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: Agree, Dave, why are they doing this? 53 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: I think that you know, they've grabbed the bull by 54 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 3: the horns and they run off with an elegant theory. 55 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: Our criticism of government is that they haven't been prepared 56 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: to get out and talk to people before they started 57 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: developing models. They've come up with what they think is 58 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: a nice, elegant theory, but in practice it just doesn't 59 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: work for our industry. So I think they've had the 60 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 3: right intent, But it's another example of where people today 61 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: are so reluctant to get out and talk to the 62 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: people that are affected. The state. 63 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing, you know, if we're talking 64 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: about a whole industry that's going to be impacted here 65 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: is surely they should be the first people that we're 66 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: consulting with. 67 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And then I get really frustrated, to be honest, 68 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: when I find out that they actually have They've already 69 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 3: moved on to the next stage. I've already started talking 70 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 3: about implementation when their consultation is only just being rolled out. 71 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: And then I look at their consultation page on the website. 72 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: It only gives you the option to choose one of 73 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: the two options they've picked. It doesn't give you a 74 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: chance to say no, it should be something different. It's 75 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: such a controlled process affecting real people who have real jobs, 76 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 3: with real families to feed, and it's just incredibly frustrating. 77 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: So, Dave, right now, as this stands, is it still 78 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: in the consultation process or have they moved on? Are 79 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: people going to have their opportunity to have their voices heard? 80 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: Who are most going to be impacted? 81 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: Well, I don't really know. That's a question for the 82 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 3: government to be We're completely honest. What I do know 83 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 3: is that they've started work on implementation. And that wouldn't 84 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: fill me with much confidence if I were sitting there 85 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 3: trying to provide a submission to government. And it doesn't 86 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: give me confidence when they've already moved on. How can 87 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: they move on without hearing what people have got to say? 88 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: And this is this issue about having an elegant theory 89 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: where it affects so many people, you've got to have 90 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 3: both it on the ground and have a practical solution 91 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: to it. 92 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: From master builders perspective, if these changes come into place, 93 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: how many businesses are we talking about that are going 94 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: to be impacted? 95 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: Well, Katie, that's a really good question because it just 96 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: depends on the top of work people are doing. But 97 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: I can tell you that eighty percent of my membership 98 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 3: is commercial contracting. I can tell you that you know 99 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: the people who do renovations in schools and new and 100 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: to move, you know people who are building shops in 101 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 3: our Springs or dal and they're all affected. So there's 102 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 3: about thirteen hundred employing businesses in our industry, and you 103 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: have to think at least eighty percent of those are affected. 104 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: Dave. If they are forced into a situation where the 105 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: qualifications change and that they're going to and the licensing 106 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: changes for eighty percent of your membership, are they going 107 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: to be able to continue to operate? 108 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: Well, that's a sixty four dollars question right now. I 109 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: don't think the government would moved to the point where 110 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 3: it pushed people out of the industry, or at least 111 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: I hope not. But I think if we're not careful, 112 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: we could have a really hand fitted approach to this 113 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 3: and that might be the result that happens anyway. You know, 114 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 3: I'm really concerned about, you know, people who are very 115 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: much hands on businessmen and women, they're already doing their 116 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: sixty or seventy hours a week. If they have to 117 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 3: migrate across to some form of degree and there's any 118 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 3: gaps at all and they have to go back to UNI, 119 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: what happens to those people. We should just have a 120 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: better conversation about this. We should start at the start, 121 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: not come up with elegant theories and then try and 122 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 3: shove them down an industry's next. 123 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: Is this happening in any other state? 124 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: Well, they have. Each day has its own licensing regimes, 125 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: and some of them have been around for a very 126 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: long time. But we're starting at the very start, and 127 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 3: in my mind, or to my mind, the process of 128 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: developing the model for the Northern Territory should start at 129 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: the very start, and I just don't think they've done that. 130 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 3: I think they're so locked in on this elegant theory. 131 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: I just don't want to hear how practically it doesn't 132 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 3: work for many people, Dave. 133 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: I know that there'll be people listening this morning who 134 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: maybe don't have a husband that works in construction, or 135 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: don't have a family member that's employed in the construction industry, 136 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: whether it is a tradee or whether it's somebody who 137 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: works as a support you know, in support I, administration 138 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: or management any other area within the construction industry. For 139 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: those out there listening who are sort of going, oh, 140 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: is it going to have that big an impact? How 141 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: is this going to change things in the territory? What 142 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: would you say to them? 143 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: What I'd say to them is that you know, construction 144 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 3: is the second largest industry in the Northern Territory and 145 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: it employs around thirteen thousand people. If you mess around 146 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: with our capability and our capacity, if you drive people 147 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: out of our industry for all sorts of reasons, then 148 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: we all suffer from that because every dollar spent in 149 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: construction spins right through the economy, creating two or three 150 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 3: dollars everywhere else. So these impacts are felt by everybody. 151 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 3: I know that people will say, oh, will progress is progress, 152 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: But you don't have to jump off the highest diving 153 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 3: board on day one. You can start at a smaller 154 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: diving board. 155 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: Can't you, absolutely, Dave, to any I mean to anybody 156 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: who is in the construction industry, particularly those that are 157 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: working in the commercial side of things, who are going 158 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: to be impacted, is there still an opportunity for them 159 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: to have their voices heard? 160 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: And if so, how should they do that? 161 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: Right? So, they need to go to the dipple website 162 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: and the difficult website will give them a Sorry those 163 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: listeners a department of Infrastructure, Planning and Logistics yep, and 164 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: go to their website and there's an opportunity to have 165 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: your stay there. Unfortunately, it's quite a constrained process. We'll 166 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: continue to advocate to the entire industry, Katie, and if 167 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: people want to talk about it, they're more than welcome 168 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: to call me as well. 169 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: Dave Malone, the head of Master Builders here in the 170 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: Northern Territory. I always appreciate your time. Make this sounds 171 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: like it is a concerning one. Please keep us up 172 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: to date with how things progress and let us know 173 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: if you know if there is any change or many 174 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: any movement in this space. 175 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: Thanks Katie, it's good to talk to you. 176 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: Thank you you too.