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Speaker 1: The data shows that when we have perfectionistic tendencies, self

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Speaker 1: esteem clients feelings of wellbeing go through the floor.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 3: wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now today, this is doctor Justin Colson.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of six books about raising happy families,

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Speaker 1: and I'm here with my wife, Kylie missus Happy Families,

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Speaker 1: the mum to our six daughters, and Kylie, I've got

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Speaker 1: some really cool news. I got an email earlier this week.

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Speaker 1: Somebody sent a link to me. We've shown up in

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Speaker 1: a publication that I haven't heard of before, but apparently

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Speaker 1: they're important.

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Speaker 2: It's called media Week, and our podcast got to mention.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, And not only did our podcast get to mention,

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Speaker 1: but it got mentioned in the same sentence as Hamish

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Speaker 1: and Andy's new podcast.

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Speaker 3: Hamish and Andy, the Hamish and Andrew.

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Speaker 2: I don't know any others, just Hamish and Andy.

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Speaker 1: So they've got the number one podcast in the country

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Speaker 1: and everybody loves or a number two podcast or something.

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Speaker 1: Everybody loves Hamy Shandy and somebody like. So we're not

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Speaker 1: anywhere near them. Let me just but the reason that

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Speaker 1: I'm mentioning. This is because Media Week have highlighted that

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Speaker 1: last month there was a brand new entry into the

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Speaker 1: top one hundred Australian produced podcasts in this country, and

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Speaker 1: we were.

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Speaker 3: It, does that mean we're the hundred No?

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Speaker 1: No, no, we're actually well inside the top one hundred. I

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Speaker 1: mean we're not We're not on the top ten or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. We can't even say we're in the

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Speaker 1: top fifty, but we're in the top one hundred Australian

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Speaker 1: podcasts that are produced in Australia, And you know, with

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Speaker 1: all Australian content.

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Speaker 2: I was like, wow, how awesome is that?

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Speaker 1: That is?

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Speaker 3: That's amazing. Yeah, what's so amazing about that is not

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Speaker 3: so much that it's a celebration of you and me,

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Speaker 3: but it's a celebration of all of these parents out

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Speaker 3: there who are listening because they just want the same

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Speaker 3: thing you and I want. They just want a happy family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and some solutions when you're time for it

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Speaker 1: and you just want to.

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Speaker 2: Figure out how to deal with this thing with your kids.

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Speaker 1: So to everybody who's listened to the podcast and put

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Speaker 1: us into the top one hundred, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just so so awesome.

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Speaker 1: It feels really nice to know that there's thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands of people who were trying to perfect their parenting

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Speaker 1: and make things work out just that little bit better

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Speaker 1: in family life.

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Speaker 3: Well, I have a confession to make because up until recently,

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Speaker 3: I actually haven't been a podcast listener at all.

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Speaker 1: So Luke and Susie used to interview me every week

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Speaker 1: and we'd have a conversation about how to make families happier.

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, oh, you've got to listen to and

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Speaker 1: you're like, Nope, don't listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 3: It's just really tricky, you know, Like most of my

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Speaker 3: driving is, you know, two or three minutes down the road,

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Speaker 3: and so kind of putting our podcast for a few minutes.

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Speaker 1: That's why it's the time the podcast or the time

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Speaker 1: Pop parent. But anyway, I know it's tricky.

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Speaker 3: But over the last few weeks since I've joined you,

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Speaker 3: I've actually been a little bit curious about what went

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Speaker 3: on before me, because people have been kind of saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, different things they've missed hearing from Luke Lupsuit.

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Speaker 1: We had some really nice feedback about how much people

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Speaker 1: love what Luke and Sussi do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I was I was a bit intrigued,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, you know what, I'd really like to

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Speaker 3: kind of just get a sense of what went on.

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Speaker 3: And I have to admit that, while I have absolutely

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Speaker 3: loved listening to all of the wealth of knowledge that

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Speaker 3: you bring to the table, it left me feeling a

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Speaker 3: little bit overwhelmed. I don't know if it's because I

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Speaker 3: was binge listening, but now that I'm your co host,

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Speaker 3: I'm feeling a little bit inadequate.

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Speaker 2: As a parent or as a co host.

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Speaker 3: Both Pluck and Susie are amazing, and Mayke do such

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Speaker 3: a great job, so definitely that, but just you know,

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Speaker 3: as I listened to all of the different strategies that

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Speaker 3: you share for parents, you know, who just want those answers,

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Speaker 3: quick quick solutions to everyday challenges, it just highlighted to

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Speaker 3: me how many times I get it wrong. And it

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Speaker 3: was really it was actually, honey.

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Speaker 2: Don't want to make you feel inadequate, No, I just it.

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Speaker 3: Really kind of it really just highlighted, Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 3: wealth of knowledge that you have shared with me over

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Speaker 3: the years that has made such a positive impact in

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Speaker 3: our lives. But I can't be that person twenty four

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Speaker 3: to seven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but totally off script here. You've got to remember

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Speaker 1: that I don't make any claims to being a perfect parent.

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Speaker 1: I get it wrong all the time. You see me

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Speaker 1: get it wrong all the time. And this is not

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Speaker 1: the perfect parenting podcast. It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's aspirational,

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Speaker 1: like we're trying to we're trying to help families do

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Speaker 1: better and be better, but nobody's trying to be perfect,

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Speaker 1: and it's impossible for us to do that.

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Speaker 2: It's just it's too hard.

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Speaker 1: Although a lot of parents try to be perfect, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's where we actually get ourselves into trouble

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Speaker 1: when we put those expectations so high on ourselves that

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Speaker 1: we can't possibly live up to them. And sometimes I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I mean Instagram Hello, it feels like everybody

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Speaker 1: expects us to be that perfect, and it's just it's

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Speaker 1: not fair. It's the Happy Family's Podcast, not the perfect

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Speaker 1: parenting podcast. Although that is a pretty catchy title.

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Speaker 3: Well, I know that for myself, as I've listened and

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Speaker 3: I've focused on all of the things that I'm doing wrong,

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Speaker 3: my week has been.

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Speaker 1: Not There's a phrase that I use all the time,

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Speaker 1: where your attention goes your energy flows so if you're

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Speaker 1: focusing on all the things you're doing wrong, you know,

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Speaker 1: if that's where your attention is, where all of your energy.

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Speaker 2: Is going to be going into the things you're doing wrong.

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Speaker 1: As well, and that can't be helpful. That's not going

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Speaker 1: to make your family flourish. It's not going to help

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Speaker 1: you to thrive. Your focus needs to go where your

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Speaker 1: attention needs to go, and your focus needs to go

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Speaker 1: on what could go right, because your energy will follow

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Speaker 1: that focus.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was thinking about this conversation and just obviously

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Speaker 3: my experiences this week, and I was wondering if we

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Speaker 3: might kind of, you know, put on your professor hat.

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Speaker 1: I was never a professor, but I was a lecturer

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Speaker 1: for a little while at university, so we could we

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Speaker 1: could do that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I thought that we could, you know, really

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Speaker 3: kind of unpack this idea of perfectionism. I think that,

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Speaker 3: you know, we definitely know people in our lives who

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Speaker 3: you know, strive for this excellence that.

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Speaker 2: Is just beyond beyond real real.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I want to ask you a couple of

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Speaker 3: questions after the break.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The Do's and don'ts

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Speaker 4: of Discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 4: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies

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Speaker 4: dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 1: poor parent who just one's answers now And we're talking

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Speaker 1: about perfectionism and the quest for perfectionism in parenting.

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Speaker 2: And you have some questions for me, missus Happy Families.

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Speaker 1: So I'm putting on my lecturer hat for just a moment,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to get very serious about being perfect.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell me what perfectionism is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the research literature is really clear on this perfectionism.

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Speaker 1: And like academics argue all the time about definitions, but

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Speaker 1: we've got pretty good consensus on this. Perfectionism is a

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Speaker 1: combination of two things. First thing, excessively high personal standards.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just have to be flawless is essentially

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: And the second thing is being extraordinarily critical in your

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Speaker 1: self evaluations. So not only do I have to be perfect,

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Speaker 1: but I never will be, Like, it's such an unfair

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Speaker 1: thing to do to ourselves. It's so cruel, and we

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Speaker 1: expect so much of ourselves. When we have that perfectionistic tendency,

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Speaker 1: we're basically saying, I must be the best, but I

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Speaker 1: never will be. I never can be, I never will

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Speaker 1: It's just not doable.

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Speaker 3: And I guess that was my experience this week, just

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Speaker 3: you know, kind of having this expectation of what I

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Speaker 3: should be able to do as a parent because I'm

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Speaker 3: number one, married to a parent in expert I should

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Speaker 3: know how to do this stuff, and then number two

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Speaker 3: recognizing that I can't even come close.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: There's three types of perfectionism as worth highlighting this really

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Speaker 1: quickly as well. The first is called self oriented perfectionism,

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Speaker 1: and that seems really adaptive, right, That's about saying, well,

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Speaker 1: I've got to be great, I've got very very high standards.

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Speaker 1: But what happens when you standards are that high is

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Speaker 1: you realize that you're never going to achieve it, and

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Speaker 1: so then you actually stop trying, and then it becomes

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Speaker 1: self defeating and it does not lead to excellence, It

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Speaker 1: doesn't lead the good outcomes. That leads to feelings of

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Speaker 1: depression and feeling lousy because you just can't measure up,

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Speaker 1: so not healthy at all. That's self oriented perfectionism. The

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Speaker 1: next one is called other oriented perfectionism, and this is

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Speaker 1: basically when you expect everybody around you to be perfect.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that some parents fall into the

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Speaker 1: trap off. You know, they look at their kids or

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Speaker 1: they look at their partner and they're like, well, I

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Speaker 1: expect you to be better. I expect you to do

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Speaker 1: this right, I expect you to never fail. I expect

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Speaker 1: you to be the most valuable player on the team.

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Speaker 1: And that other oriented perfectionism is really really challenging.

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Speaker 3: Does that kind of tap into parents who want their

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Speaker 3: children to be better than they were?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, that's part of it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess it depends on the motivation for why

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Speaker 1: and what it does for their identity and their kids' identity.

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Speaker 1: And this is the critical thing here. Perfectionism is really

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Speaker 1: about identity. There's nothing the matter with having high standards.

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Speaker 1: There's absolutely nothing the matter with being conscientious and working

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Speaker 1: hard towards goals. The issue is when you start to

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Speaker 1: classify your value as a human based on how well

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Speaker 1: you achieve those goals.

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Speaker 3: All right, so you said that there were three yes.

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Speaker 1: So there's self and other oriented perfectionism, though that's the

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Speaker 1: first two. The one that's most abilitating, though, and I

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Speaker 1: think this is the one that is a really big

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Speaker 1: challenge is what's called socially prescribed perfectionism, and that essentially

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Speaker 1: is when you think that everyone else has excessively high

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Speaker 1: expectations of you, or you know, you're scrolling through Instagram

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Speaker 1: and you're like, look at the life that everybody else

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Speaker 1: is doing, and this is what I'm expected to live

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Speaker 1: up to. And then you get this combination of self

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Speaker 1: oriented and socially prescribed perfectionism where you think everyone is

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Speaker 1: prescribing this to you, but you also feel that you

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Speaker 1: have to live up to it. And then you put

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Speaker 1: the pressure on yourself as well, so you feel like

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Speaker 1: there's other oriented you know, sorry, there's pressure coming from outside,

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Speaker 1: but you also put it on you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's a double edged sword, really, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: And it's toxic.

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Speaker 1: Like, the data shows that when we have perfectionistic tendencies,

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Speaker 1: self esteem declients, feelings of well being go through the floor.

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Speaker 1: The data shows that, in fact, this is really kind

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Speaker 1: of heavy stuff. But pretty much every major psychopathology, anxiety, depression,

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Speaker 1: even suicidal ideation much much more likely to occur in

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Speaker 1: individuals who are perfectionistic, just terribly, terribly toxic.

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Speaker 3: So you've talked about what the negatives are. There are

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Speaker 3: plenty of negatives too. Are there any positives to being

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Speaker 3: a perfectionist?

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Speaker 1: So there's some people that talk about how there's this

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Speaker 1: idea that you can have positive perfectionism.

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Speaker 2: I don't like it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that it's an adaptive way to use

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Speaker 1: the phrase. I think that the term perfectionism should stay

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Speaker 1: in this silo that says, stay away from perfectionism.

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Speaker 2: It's not helpful.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing the matter with saying I've got high expectations

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Speaker 1: and high standards, but perfectionism is about my value as

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Speaker 1: a person, and it's just not fair to say, well,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't attain that certain standard, I'm not a

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Speaker 1: valuable person. That's what I don't like about it. So

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Speaker 1: I would actually there would be some academics who would

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Speaker 1: argue with me and say that perfectionism is healthy in

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Speaker 1: some ways. There are adaptive kinds of perfectionism. But what

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Speaker 1: they're really saying, I think is that it's good to

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Speaker 1: be conscientious, it's good to work hard, it's good to

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Speaker 1: have high, high goals, and I would agree with that,

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Speaker 1: but I wouldn't call that perfectionism. I'd call that persevering

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Speaker 1: and having fortitude and conscientious, being conscientious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So if I and I'm not saying I am,

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Speaker 3: If I am a perfectionist.

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Speaker 2: And wanting to be the perfect parent, what do I

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Speaker 2: do with that?

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Speaker 3: How do I work with this? How do I get

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Speaker 3: to a point where I can, you know, accept limitations

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Speaker 3: or set standards for myself that are actually achievable without

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Speaker 3: accepting a life of mediocrity, because that's not the person

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Speaker 3: I am.

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Speaker 2: So I'd call that a false dichotomy.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people say, well, if I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to have these really high standards and be perfect,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to just be average?

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to be like everybody else. That's not

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Speaker 2: good enough for me.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's you know, we're going from

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Speaker 1: one extreme to the other. You can still have high standards,

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Speaker 1: you can still want to be the very best parent

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Speaker 1: or the very best partner, or the very best employee

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Speaker 1: or the very best whatever it is that you value

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Speaker 1: that you can be, but there's a difference between saying

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Speaker 1: I want to work hard and improve and I want

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Speaker 1: to be the best, or my value as a person

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Speaker 1: comes down to this. There's this thing called the perfection

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Speaker 1: paradox or the perfectionism paradox, and what it basically is

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Speaker 1: is that we learn by making mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's how we get better.

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Speaker 1: We have to make mistakes because as we make mistakes,

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Speaker 1: we recognize that we need to adjust what we're doing

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Speaker 1: so that we can get better.

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Speaker 2: That's how we learn.

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Speaker 1: When we avoid mistakes, therefore we limit our learning. But

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Speaker 1: because perfectionists hate making mistakes because then they show that

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Speaker 1: they're not perfect, they tend not to learn.

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Speaker 3: And so in your effort to be perfect, you actually

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Speaker 3: curb your learning, which means that you can never never

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Speaker 3: be perfect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, spot on. So I would do two things.

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Speaker 1: Number one, So this this idea that we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: celebrate failure. I read it in blogs all the time.

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Speaker 1: I see it on social media all the time. Celebrate failure,

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Speaker 1: celebrate mediocreat It's like nobody's sell it. Now. If the

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Speaker 1: kids come home and they've got an F on their

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Speaker 1: report card, or if you get fired for underperformance at work,

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Speaker 1: or if you know the house is falling apart because

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Speaker 1: you everything's just a shamozzle. You don't sort of walk

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Speaker 1: in the door and go, look at this, We're failing.

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Speaker 1: How amazing, We're celebrated. Let's have a party, Let's go

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Speaker 1: and buy some cake. That's so unrealistic. It's a stupid

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Speaker 1: thing to say. But what I think we can do

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Speaker 1: is we can say we can shift our focus and

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Speaker 1: say I'm not so interested on the outcome. I'm more

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Speaker 1: interested in the process. My goal here is to learn

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Speaker 1: to become a better parent. And if I fail, if

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Speaker 1: I get it wrong, if I yell at the kids,

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Speaker 1: if I don't get my life together the way I'm

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Speaker 1: supposed to as a parent, what can I learn from

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Speaker 1: that so that I can be better tomorrow. It's not

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Speaker 1: about being perfect. It's about this ongoing becoming, this ongoing development.

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Speaker 1: That's why every Friday we have this conversation about I'll

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Speaker 1: do better tomorrow. Why because we're not trying to be perfect,

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Speaker 1: We're just.

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Speaker 2: Trying to do better tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I love it.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, the thing that I love about

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Speaker 1: it most of all is that it's tremendously self compassionate.

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Speaker 1: Some of the things that we say to ourselves. If

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Speaker 1: if you think about the last you know, when you

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Speaker 1: listen to those podcasts and you were thinking that you.

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Speaker 2: Weren't good enough?

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Speaker 1: Mum? What kinds of things did you say to yourself

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Speaker 1: about yourself? I don't know if you want to share

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Speaker 1: that or not.

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Speaker 2: Putting on the spot.

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest one that stood stands out to

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Speaker 3: me is I'm the weak link in our family.

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Speaker 2: And you can see how damaging that statement is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, it was. Now it broke my heart.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get a bit weepy when I say this,

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Speaker 1: But can you imagine if one of our children was

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Speaker 1: struggling and you looked at her and said, you're the

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Speaker 1: weak link in our family?

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Speaker 2: Like you just wouldn't say it.

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Speaker 1: So if you wouldn't say it to somebody else, why

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Speaker 1: is it okay to say it to you?

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Speaker 3: You got me crying too.

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Speaker 1: Isn't this a big This is a big deal though, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because we say such awful things to ourselves. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to call ourselves names. Sometimes we just say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm the weak link, I'm the failure. But you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say it to your mum, and you wouldn't say it

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Speaker 1: to one of our kids, and you wouldn't say it

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Speaker 1: to our neighbor, you wouldn't say it to a friend.

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Speaker 1: We've got to be more compassionate to ourselves, not to

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Speaker 1: everyone else, although that's important too, but we've actually got

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Speaker 1: to just be kinder to ourselves. And if we can

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Speaker 1: learn how to do that, that is where we move

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Speaker 1: away from perfectionism. And at no point are you saying, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to accept mediocrity. What you're saying instead is

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Speaker 1: I had a really lousy day with the kids today.

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Speaker 1: I haven't been the mum that I want to be.

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Speaker 1: And while it's not okay, I'll do better tomorrow. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to learn from today.

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Speaker 3: That's a message of hope. So we've obviously talked about

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Speaker 3: what do I do I find the perfectionists, but is

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Speaker 3: it easy to actually spot it in other people? And

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Speaker 3: especially I guess as we're talking about families and our

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Speaker 3: spouses or our children.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can spot it, you know. Perfectionism really just

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Speaker 1: comes down to one thing. How do I feel about failure?

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Speaker 1: How do I feel about mistakes? And if you've got

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Speaker 1: a partner or a child, or if you've got somebody

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Speaker 1: close to you who won't try things because they're going

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Speaker 1: to make mistakes, as opposed to not trying things because

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Speaker 1: they're not motivated.

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Speaker 2: There's a difference.

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Speaker 1: Or when they do try something, they fail and they say,

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Speaker 1: I will never do that again because I hate feeling

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Speaker 1: stupid and looking dumb. Then they're moving towards perfectionistic tendencies.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we give the same strategies, you know,

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Speaker 1: some compassion. We talk about learning. We say, well, how

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Speaker 1: would you do it differently next time? And we've got

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Speaker 1: to it's critical that we say, whether you do this

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Speaker 1: right or whether you fail, you're still okay.

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Speaker 2: It's not a reflection on who you are as a person.

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Speaker 1: And that compassion, that softness actually helps people to know

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Speaker 1: that it's okay to make mistakes. That's why people listen

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Speaker 1: to the podcast right because we all know that we're

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Speaker 1: making mistakes, but we want to be better tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: That's I think the central message.

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Speaker 3: Well, things a bit personal there, and I feel like

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Speaker 3: I had a little bit of a therapy session with

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Speaker 3: everybody listening in too.

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Speaker 2: I hate some tissues as well.

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Speaker 3: I'm so grateful not only that you're my husband, but

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Speaker 3: that I can pick your brain as an expert with

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Speaker 3: these issues because I think that it makes such a

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Speaker 3: difference for families.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think it's really funny because on this

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Speaker 1: podcast we talk about stuff that we don't necessarily talk

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Speaker 1: about in the hum drum of everyday real life. And

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Speaker 1: I love having these conversations with you. If you enjoy

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Speaker 1: the conversations that we're having, we would be so grateful

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Speaker 1: if you would jump onto Apple Podcasts and tell everyone

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Speaker 1: about the podcast, let people know what you think. When

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Speaker 1: you do that, Apple's algorithm bumps our podcast up, and

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Speaker 1: it helps other people to find out about us so

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Speaker 1: that they can make their families happier but not necessarily

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Speaker 1: more perfect, And we would love it if.

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Speaker 2: You would be able to do that. Just go to

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and.

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Speaker 1: Leave your rating and review and help other people to

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Speaker 1: find out about the podcast. We appreciate so very much.

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Speaker 1: Justin rule On from Bridge Media. He's our producer and

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Speaker 1: our executive producer is Bruce And if you'd like more

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Speaker 1: info about how your family can flourish, visit Happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au.