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Speaker 1: As a Wharton professor who specializes in behavior change, Katie

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Speaker 1: Milkman's in the business of giving advice and she's completely

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Speaker 1: overqualified to be a guest on How I Live, because

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Speaker 1: when it comes to everyday actions, behaviors, and decisions that

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Speaker 1: make up our lives, Katie is absolutely obsessed. Whether it's

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Speaker 1: a speedy workaround for writing or an unexpected approach to

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Speaker 1: pursuing goals, Katie's always trying to nudge herself and her

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Speaker 1: brain in the right direction. I'm doctor Amantha Imber, an

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Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the host of How I Work, and

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Speaker 1: I'm trying something a little different for the next few weeks.

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Speaker 1: This is How I Live, a series that gives you

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Speaker 1: an inside look but some super accomplished people's top strategies

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Speaker 1: for living a happy, productive, and impactful life. Having spoken

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Speaker 1: with Katie before and being such a huge fan of

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Speaker 1: her work, I know that she thinks really deeply about

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Speaker 1: her processes and how to be as efficient and effective

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Speaker 1: as possible. So we start by talking about Katie's favorite

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Speaker 1: time saving hack.

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Speaker 2: My favorite time saving hack is that for anything possible,

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Speaker 2: I start from a template, whether it's an email to

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Speaker 2: a student interested in getting involved with my research, or

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Speaker 2: a referee report for a journal, which is an important

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Speaker 2: part of the academic publishing process. I spend a lot

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Speaker 2: of time reviewing other people's manuscripts or manuscript i'm writing myself.

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Speaker 2: I really try to have a model and make as

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Speaker 2: much of the world a mad lib as possible, and

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Speaker 2: it saves tons of time.

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Speaker 1: So give me some examples of maybe some of the

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Speaker 1: more unusual things that you've got templates for that would

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Speaker 1: surprise people. O.

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Speaker 2: God, Well, I do have literally templates for every kind

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Speaker 2: of email you could imagine, responding to everything from an

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Speaker 2: invitation to deliver a talk at a conference, to a

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Speaker 2: student who wants to work with me, to someone who's

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Speaker 2: interested in consulting, or a podcast appearance. I have template

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Speaker 2: emails to say both yes and no that, so that

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Speaker 2: I can go straight to those. There are a lot

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Speaker 2: of things I don't have templates for, but that before

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Speaker 2: I would ever start writing, I would find a template for. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, if I'm going to write an op ed

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Speaker 2: in a newspaper, I don't necessarily have one on hand,

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Speaker 2: but I would never begin writing without going and finding

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Speaker 2: three examples and basically backwards diagramming what's their structure? You know,

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Speaker 2: what are the first two paragraphs? Is that a story

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Speaker 2: that it opens with a quote, does it get right

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Speaker 2: to the point of the research that's trying to present.

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Speaker 2: I find examples and then I turn them into templates

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Speaker 2: so that I understand the exact structure I'm writing with it.

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Speaker 2: So I do this for everything written, and then I

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Speaker 2: actually think you can use templates not only with writing,

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Speaker 2: but with goal pursued, and so that might be a

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Speaker 2: more unusual example. In fact, I have a paper with

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Speaker 2: Angela Duckworth and Katie Mayer on this topic where we

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Speaker 2: looked at whether or not people recognize that when they

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Speaker 2: have a goal and they have friends or acquaintances who

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Speaker 2: have the same goal, it can really save time and

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Speaker 2: improve outcomes. If your first step is to try to

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Speaker 2: emulate something that's working for someone else and try to

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Speaker 2: actually go investigate. Ask your friend, I noticed that you

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Speaker 2: got in shape last month, which is something I've been

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Speaker 2: wanting to do. Could you explain what you did that

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Speaker 2: made that work for you? Or I noticed that you

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Speaker 2: figured out how to find the job of your dreams

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Speaker 2: and publishing, and I've always wanted to do that. What

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Speaker 2: were the steps you took, could you break them down

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Speaker 2: for me? So essentially everything in life there is a

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Speaker 2: template because others have succeeded at doing it before you.

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Speaker 2: And rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, I think

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Speaker 2: we should spend a lot more time trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out what's the mad lib we can fit ourselves into

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Speaker 2: so that the you know, which isn't the say you

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Speaker 2: don't want to be creative and lots of bards of life,

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Speaker 2: but you don't want to create a necessary work for yourself.

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Speaker 2: And whenever there is something that you can use as

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Speaker 2: a model, that's always the right place to start.

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Speaker 1: What's the trick of you in thinking, ah, I need

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Speaker 1: a new template here?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting question. I think. You know, again,

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Speaker 2: anything that's written, it's really straightforward. And if I've seen,

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Speaker 2: for instance, an ask coming through or a question that

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Speaker 2: I'm getting multiple times, I'll give you an example. Today

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Speaker 2: I got an email from one of my research assistants,

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Speaker 2: and I run a big research group, and she is

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Speaker 2: about to talk to a professor who is at a

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Speaker 2: PhD program where she's planning to apply, and he said,

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Speaker 2: you know, let's set up a time to talk. And

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Speaker 2: she wrote me and she said, could you help me

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Speaker 2: think about how to prepare for this meeting? It's sort

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Speaker 2: of like an interview, but it's informal. And I realized, oh,

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Speaker 2: I got an email just like this year ago, another

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Speaker 2: research assistant who was going into a conversation, an informal

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Speaker 2: conversation with a faculty member at a university where he

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Speaker 2: hopes he would end up as a PhD student. I

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Speaker 2: should have a template for this. I should have a

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Speaker 2: set of advice that I always offer when someone is

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Speaker 2: in the situation. So it's really about pattern recognition. That's

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Speaker 2: one thing. Like something that comes up repeatedly. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to have to think through and give the same

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Speaker 2: advice to multiple people, which is ps part of why

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book, because I realized, Oh, lots of

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Speaker 2: people are asking me, lots of companies and individuals. You know,

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Speaker 2: you have all this wisdom about how to change from

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Speaker 2: your research. Could you come give us advice or consult

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Speaker 2: us on this? And I thought, enough people are sk

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Speaker 2: just write it all down and then I handle my

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Speaker 2: book instead of having to have, you know, two hundred

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Speaker 2: conversations with all these people. So I think anytime something

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Speaker 2: comes up repeatedly, or something is going to be big

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Speaker 2: and new. You want to think about whether there's a

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Speaker 2: template you can use to break down the big, scary

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Speaker 2: new thing, or whether there's a template you can use

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Speaker 2: so that the question that's coming up repeatedly, you only

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Speaker 2: spend time on it once and then you save time

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Speaker 2: in the future.

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Speaker 1: Now, aside from templates, what is something unusual that you

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Speaker 1: do to make yourself feel happy.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're going to think I live on my email,

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Speaker 2: which actually isn't a terrible summary of what I do professionally.

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Speaker 2: But one thing I do actually is in my inbox,

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Speaker 2: which is there's a lot of disappointment in my career.

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Speaker 2: So as an academic, I spend a lot of my

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Speaker 2: time pursuing scientific questions where the answers aren't interesting. Right,

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Speaker 2: we think we have a brilliant hypothesis and if we're right,

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Speaker 2: it'll change the world, and then oops, we were wrong.

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Speaker 2: Or I think I have a brilliant paper and I

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Speaker 2: send it off to a journal and then it gets

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Speaker 2: rejected because they don't think it's as brilliant as I

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Speaker 2: think it is. So there's just a lot of disappointment

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Speaker 2: in my area. And I realized that in order to

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Speaker 2: make life rosier. It would be helpful to have a

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Speaker 2: strategy for dealing with that disappointment, which is to try

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Speaker 2: to stockpile things that make me happy. And I don't

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Speaker 2: mean kitten videos, but those are great too, I hear.

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Speaker 2: But for me, when something really good happens, or you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody sends me an unexpected compliment via email or an award,

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Speaker 2: or you know, I do get into a journal with

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Speaker 2: a really exciting paper result, I have a folder, a

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Speaker 2: special folder in my inbox. Or when a student reaches

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Speaker 2: out and says, I've been thinking about your class from

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Speaker 2: ten years ago and it changed my life in weighs X, Y,

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Speaker 2: and Z, which doesn't happen that often but does sometimes happen.

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Speaker 2: These are rare events, right, but they're really special. I

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Speaker 2: put them in this folder. And then when things are

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Speaker 2: not great, if I have something bad happen, I have

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Speaker 2: this special folder that I can go to and it's

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Speaker 2: just filled, even though you know, I've been keeping it

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Speaker 2: for twenty years now. And those things are rare, really

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Speaker 2: extraordinary messages that someone sends you that just absolutely left

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Speaker 2: your mood, But over twenty years you get enough of

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Speaker 2: them that it's oh it's quite a thrill to go

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Speaker 2: through them once every six months when something really crummy happened.

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Speaker 2: So that's something I think everyone should do, is have

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Speaker 2: a happy folder in their email inbox that they can

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Speaker 2: visit when they're feeling down.

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Speaker 1: As a professor, like, you're kind of in the business

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Speaker 1: of teaching and giving people advice, and I'm wondering what

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Speaker 1: piece of advice do you find yourself giving most frequently.

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Speaker 2: I think the advice I offer the most has to

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Speaker 2: do with research that was done by Isolett Fischbach at

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Speaker 2: the University of Chicago and Caitlin Wooley at Cornell University.

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Speaker 2: They have some wonderful work showing that most of us

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Speaker 2: think the best way to pursue our goals is by

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Speaker 2: finding the most efficient and effective and direct path, but

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Speaker 2: that we actually persist longer if instead we take a

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Speaker 2: less efficient approach and focus on finding a fun way

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Speaker 2: to achieve success. And so I find myself often talking

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Speaker 2: about that research with people and pointing out that as

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Speaker 2: they're making choices about what career path to pursue or

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Speaker 2: how to get from where they are to a goal

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Speaker 2: that they're hoping to achieve, that a key ingredient they

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Speaker 2: need to think about is how will they make the

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Speaker 2: goal pursuit or the career they're pursuing, something that they

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Speaker 2: get excited to do each day, that they wake up energized,

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Speaker 2: and that they're focusing on finding that aspect of their path,

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Speaker 2: not just not just some outcome that matters to them.

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Speaker 1: Is it something that you find yourself applying in your

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Speaker 1: own life a lot as well?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think being a professor is a bit like

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Speaker 2: being an entrepreneur because I have a huge amount of

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Speaker 2: freedom and how I structure my time and the things

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Speaker 2: I say yes and no to, And as a result,

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Speaker 2: it's even more important in some sense because I constantly

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Speaker 2: am making these kinds of decisions where I could choose

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Speaker 2: the path that might get me fastest to a goal,

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Speaker 2: but would sacrifice enjoyment, or I can choose the path

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Speaker 2: that I'll enjoy more that might lead to a goal

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Speaker 2: more soley for example, things like choosing who to collaborate

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Speaker 2: with on projects, you could focus on just finding the

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Speaker 2: world's absolute expert on a topic, or you could try

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Speaker 2: to find someone who knows a lot about it and

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Speaker 2: who you really like, and I would always pick the

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Speaker 2: latter as opposed to just the person who has the

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Speaker 2: most knowledge. I also want to make sure that collaborating

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Speaker 2: with this person is going to be a positive, exciting

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Speaker 2: experience that I look forward to each each time I

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Speaker 2: help on a zoom or get in a room with them.

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Speaker 2: And also, you know, there's a lot of different things

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Speaker 2: you can do to build a reputation as academic contribute

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Speaker 2: to science, from you know, attending conferences to publishing papers,

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Speaker 2: mentoring students, teaching classes, studying different types of research questions

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Speaker 2: and when I pick and there's many different ways to

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Speaker 2: make a contribution editing journals. I have recognized that there

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Speaker 2: are some parts of this job that are really worthwhile

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Speaker 2: but don't give me joy, and some parts that are

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Speaker 2: really worthwhile and do And I try to lean into

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Speaker 2: the ones that do because I know I'll do a

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Speaker 2: better job of that. And I hope, I hope most

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Speaker 2: of the things that I don't lean into they are

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Speaker 2: someone else's source of joy. And that is largely there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of fun things in academi and some people,

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Speaker 2: for instance, absolutely love editing journals. That is something that

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Speaker 2: I found I really don't love. I've had some opportunities

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Speaker 2: to take on prestigious editorial positions, and I've said no way.

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Speaker 2: I know someone else will love this opportunity. It will

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Speaker 2: be life changing for them. They'll be thrilled, And for

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Speaker 2: me that just sounds like punishment. So thinking about how

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Speaker 2: you can not only make contributions and advance your career,

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Speaker 2: but also what will be most fun day in and

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Speaker 2: day out to get you to that goal.

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Speaker 1: We will be back soon where Katie shares a book

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Speaker 1: she read that fundamentally changed the way she thinks about

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Speaker 1: the world. If you're looking for more tips to improve

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Speaker 1: the way you live, I write a short fortnightly newsletter

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Speaker 1: that contains three cool things that I've discovered that help

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Speaker 1: make my life better in some way. You can sign

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Speaker 1: up for that at how I Work dot Code. That's

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Speaker 1: how I work dot Code. What's a book that you've

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Speaker 1: read in recent years that's fundamentally changed the way you think?

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Speaker 2: So this is sort of an unfair question to ask

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Speaker 2: an academic in that like, our lives are shaped by

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Speaker 2: books literally, so I have I'm going to go with

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Speaker 2: the biggest of all shapers for me, which is a

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Speaker 2: book called Nudge by Richard Thaylor and Cas Sunstein, and

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Speaker 2: it is It's a book that literally changed my life.

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Speaker 2: It changed the course of my life, It changed how

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Speaker 2: I spend every day of my life. It's a book

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Speaker 2: that argues that in every environment where choices are made,

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Speaker 2: we are, whether intentional or not, having our choice is

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Speaker 2: shaped by the way they are presented to us, by

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Speaker 2: the environment and the way they're structured. The best example

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Speaker 2: of this that they open with, actually is think about

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Speaker 2: a cafeteria and think about walking in and making a

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Speaker 2: decision about what to put on your tray, and then

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Speaker 2: therefore what to consume, and that something has to come

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Speaker 2: first and something has to come last. Right when you

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Speaker 2: sort of walk up with your tray to the front

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Speaker 2: of the line, and whatever comes first is a lot

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Speaker 2: more likely to end up on your tray and in

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Speaker 2: your stomach because you have an empty tray. If it

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Speaker 2: looks good, you take it the very last thing you encounter.

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Speaker 2: By now you'd have to like go put something else back.

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Speaker 2: It might not even be sanitary to do so, right,

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Speaker 2: So the bar is really different. And what that means

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Speaker 2: is that whether it was intentional or not, whoever decided

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Speaker 2: on the layout of that cafeteria was there were choice.

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Speaker 2: Architect they were shaping your decisions. And actually not only that,

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Speaker 2: but even if they wanted to be neutral and not

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Speaker 2: influence you, it's not possible because something has to come

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Speaker 2: first and something has to come last. And thinking about

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Speaker 2: the world that way, recognizing that in every form I

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Speaker 2: fill out in every room I walk into where I'll

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Speaker 2: have an interaction, and every email I send, in every

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Speaker 2: single conversation, you have your choices and your decisions are

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Speaker 2: being shaped by the environment, by the way things are structured,

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Speaker 2: by the way the form is set up, you know,

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Speaker 2: by the people around you and how they're responding. That

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Speaker 2: completely changed my life, and it's really shaped my own

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Speaker 2: work because I realized one that spoke to me. I

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Speaker 2: was like, yes, I get it. I am constantly shifted

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Speaker 2: by these textual forces. I can see it happening. I

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Speaker 2: am at ps I'm one of those people who, you know,

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Speaker 2: you go out to dinner with me and I struggle

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Speaker 2: to decide what I'm going to order, and then after

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Speaker 2: I give the waiter my order, I often am like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, I made the wrong choice and wave them

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Speaker 2: down and change. My husband finds it's so annoying, But

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Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot and analyze my decisions

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Speaker 2: a lot, so I really saw One, I saw my

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Speaker 2: own experience in this, and two, I realized how enormously

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Speaker 2: important and valuable it could be to better understand what

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Speaker 2: are those forces, so it can help people make better decisions,

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Speaker 2: healthier decisions, live lives where they gained more from their education,

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Speaker 2: where they're able to save more. And it turns out

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Speaker 2: that these little choices matter im mentally. So this book

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Speaker 2: Nudge really opened my eyes to a whole new way

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Speaker 2: of thinking that completely altered my career path so that

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Speaker 2: I could focus on developing scientific tests of what kinds

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Speaker 2: of structural change best to help people make good choices.

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Speaker 1: Use nudge theory in your own life, Like, I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: what sort of hacks or habits have you developed that

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Speaker 1: take into account that we ask their influenced by what's

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Speaker 1: around us.

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Speaker 2: I am freakishly attuned to these tools that will say

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Speaker 2: like I don't even almost know where to start, like

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Speaker 2: from some parenting, some of my parenting and framing the

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Speaker 2: way choices when I talk to my child, uh oh,

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Speaker 2: tell me about that. Well, I'll often mention first. If

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Speaker 2: I want to suggest something, I'll say, you know, we

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Speaker 2: were thinking of doing X, or why but I heard

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Speaker 2: that these three friends of yours are thinking of doing X.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to do that too? So you're sort

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Speaker 2: of emphasizing, like, oh, this is social norm people who

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Speaker 2: are like you. I think this is a I think

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Speaker 2: math class. You know, over the summer math camp would

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Speaker 2: be great. They're all into this idea. Or you know,

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Speaker 2: they're all eating their spinnach or broccoli right two. Uh,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying. I'm sort of trying to find ways for me.

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Speaker 2: A big one is something I have studied that I

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Speaker 2: call temptation bundling, which is always trying to link temptations

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Speaker 2: with things that would otherwise feel like chores. So, for instance,

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Speaker 2: for many years, the only way I could drag myself

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Speaker 2: to the gym was that I knew that i'd get

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Speaker 2: to listen to the next chapter of a trashy novel

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Speaker 2: while I was ex sizing. A lot of people do

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Speaker 2: this with TV. But that's actually it turns out my

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Speaker 2: brain is too puny to handle all that sensory input.

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Speaker 2: I tried TV and I can't. I can't. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: when my heart rate is that high, I can't follow

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Speaker 2: all that input. So I listen to you know, like

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Speaker 2: the Twilight series or the Hunger Games, like really low

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Speaker 2: row fiction where if you miss a chapter because you're

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Speaker 2: huffing and puffing, you can catch right back up. So

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Speaker 2: that's an example sort of a Now I structure an

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Speaker 2: environment so I realize there's some hook something that will

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Speaker 2: be a source of pleasure that I only get if

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Speaker 2: I I mean, it's an incentive too if I if

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Speaker 2: I go exercise. Another example is just I know that

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Speaker 2: there is zero chance that I will remember anything if

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Speaker 2: I just try to store it in my brain, and

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Speaker 2: so I live by a calendar. I never get off

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Speaker 2: a call where I promise someone something without saying either

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Speaker 2: you know, I have to write this down immediately or

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Speaker 2: you need to send me an email because it's not

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Speaker 2: it's gone on the instant of the conversation is over.

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Speaker 2: So I have a lot of systems in place for

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Speaker 2: sort of making sure that that I never rely on

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Speaker 2: actual memory for anything. Those are just a few mediocre examples,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the way I structure my syllabus. Some

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Speaker 2: of the you know, I think carefully about defaults, which

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Speaker 2: is sort of what happens if no one chooses another option. Uh,

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Speaker 2: So there are clear defaults like you will be called

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Speaker 2: on on randomly selected days, but you can opt out

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Speaker 2: if you you know, you get warned, and so there's

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to say, like, I'm totally unprepared to speak

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Speaker 2: in this class because X, Y Z, and you can say,

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Speaker 2: you know, ping me and tell me I'm on for

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Speaker 2: another day, recognizing them. You know, sometimes there's an emergency

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Speaker 2: and a person won't be able to be prepared. So

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Speaker 2: I try to warn but also have a default that

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Speaker 2: that you're on. Those are Those are a few examples.

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Speaker 2: But I live my life by this, and whenever I

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Speaker 2: think about how will we structure any choice in my department,

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Speaker 2: in my class, in my speaking or podcasting, I try

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Speaker 2: to keep in mind what's the choice architecture and as

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Speaker 2: it wise.

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Speaker 1: Now, Katie, if I gifted you a plaque to put

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Speaker 1: on your wall, so something that you'd like to constantly

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Speaker 1: be reminded of, what would you want it to say?

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Speaker 2: I think I would say something like leave things better

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Speaker 2: than you found them. I thought a little bit about saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, make change for good, which is kind of

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Speaker 2: the same thing. And actually the research center I codirect

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Speaker 2: at Wharton and co found it is called the behavior

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Speaker 2: change for good initiatives, so they're closely related. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's a little broader to just say leave things

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Speaker 2: better than you found them, because that's true in every relationship,

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Speaker 2: It's true in every meeting you attend, as well as

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Speaker 2: in just you know, the overall way that you leave

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Speaker 2: the world. So I think it has broader application, and

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Speaker 2: I hope that you know, whether it's visiting a national

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Speaker 2: park and making sure that I don't destroy any of

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Speaker 2: its beauty, and you know, maybe even try to leave

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Speaker 2: pick up a piece of trash and dispose of it

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Speaker 2: so I've left it a little better, or a person

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Speaker 2: I bump into on the street who I see is

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Speaker 2: having a tough day and could use a hand, or

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Speaker 2: in my work, which I try to focus on making

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Speaker 2: the world a better place with science. I think it's

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Speaker 2: a good mantra.

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Speaker 1: Iighty for people that want to connect with you, read,

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Speaker 1: listen to the things that you are putting out in

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Speaker 1: the world. What is the best way to do that?

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Speaker 2: Probably on my website which sort of organizes everything, which

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Speaker 2: is Katiemilkman dot com with a y like Katie Perry.

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Speaker 2: I am grateful to her for making my name more

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Speaker 2: pronounceable to the masses. I have a book, I'm on

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Speaker 2: I'm most active on Twitter and LinkedIn all the social networks.

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Speaker 2: But podcast Choiceology, a newsletter called Milkman delivers. So there

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Speaker 2: are lots of ways, but the website really gives you

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Speaker 2: a one stop shop. So all of my researchers there,

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Speaker 2: all of these other ways I communicate with the world,

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Speaker 2: or I'll link there too. Amazing.

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Speaker 1: I will link to that in the show notes. And

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Speaker 1: for anyone listening that hasn't read your book, Cutter Change,

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Speaker 1: it is just brilliant. I've recommended it to oh so

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Speaker 1: so many people. I love it, so thank you for

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Speaker 1: everything that you've put out into the world. You are

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Speaker 1: definitely leaving it better, So thank you.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciate you saying that. I hope that is true.

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Speaker 2: I hope I'm leaving it better than I found it.

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Speaker 2: Same to you, and thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I hope you picked up something of value from this chat.

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Speaker 1: I know for me being someone who has templates in

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Speaker 1: my inbox for quite a few common types of emails

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Speaker 1: that I have to write, this conversation actually prompted me

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Speaker 1: to be more diligent in recognizing the emails I was

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Speaker 1: writing again and again and to grant some new templates,

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Speaker 1: but also I went back and did a clean out

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Speaker 1: of templates I'd created in the past, but that I

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Speaker 1: no longer use. That we're just kind of cluttering that

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Speaker 1: part of my email. And I also know that my

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Speaker 1: team at Inventium are huge fans of templates, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: we regularly share our templates with each other to help

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Speaker 1: us all save time wherever.

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Speaker 2: You can.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing part of your day

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Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Live. If you're

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Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better and

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Speaker 1: live better, connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram to

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Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. How I Live was recorded on

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Speaker 1: the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of the

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Speaker 1: Cooler Nation. I'm so grateful for being able to work

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Speaker 1: and live on this beautiful land, and I want to

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Speaker 1: pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How

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Speaker 1: I Live is produced by Inventium with production support from

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Speaker 1: Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam

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Speaker 1: Riordan and sound engineering was done by Martin Imba