Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week airline.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to TV Reload.
Speaker 1: My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this podcast I go
Speaker 1: behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. Each
Speaker 1: episode you will get a front row seat with content
Speaker 1: makers like executive producers, writers, editors, and casting agents, plus
Speaker 1: the talent that we see on our screens. TV Reload
Speaker 1: reloads the shows that you were currently watching and gives
Speaker 1: you a better insight into our television industry and our
Speaker 1: streaming services today. On the podcast, I have Thomas Wilson White,
Speaker 1: who was one of the writers on the latest incarnation
Speaker 1: of Heartbreak High, which has.
Speaker 2: Been a huge hit for Netflix.
Speaker 1: Tom is actually a family friend of mine and has
Speaker 1: always been an incredibly smart intelligence storyteller. The fact that
Speaker 1: he's been able to demonstrate his talents and be a
Speaker 1: part of a hit like Heartbreak High is a step
Speaker 1: in the right direction for young writers in this country.
Speaker 1: Heartbreak High was a huge part of my early introduction
Speaker 1: into TV and also my passion for television. The series
Speaker 1: broke round in the nineties, and what a joy it
Speaker 1: has been to see it brought.
Speaker 2: Back for a brand new generation.
Speaker 1: The characters in this show are complicated, funny, and reflective
Speaker 1: of real teenagers in Australian schools. If you haven't watched
Speaker 1: the series, I'm super duper jealous because I would love
Speaker 1: to go back and watch it all over again for
Speaker 1: the first time. We will talk about the process in
Speaker 1: the writer's room, where Tom's inspiration comes from, why telling
Speaker 1: stories of queer people is so important, and we will
Speaker 1: get an update on series two. However, let's get started
Speaker 1: with today's guest. I'd like to welcome Thomas Wilson White,
Speaker 1: the writer of episode five and story collaborator of Heartbreak High,
Speaker 1: to TV Relock.
Speaker 3: This is a really big opportunity for me and I
Speaker 3: really want to smash it. I think Heartbreak how in
Speaker 3: It's DNA and like at its soul, is a show
Speaker 3: about rebellion, love and passion. It's absolutely been the foundation
Speaker 3: of my rioting voice.
Speaker 1: This whole series is about this group of teens and
Speaker 1: how they connect each other.
Speaker 3: When you hear the words heartbreak, hi, it has a mythology.
Speaker 3: I'm really proud of this show for doing is kind
Speaker 3: of pushing the ideas and notions of what it is
Speaker 3: to be a teenager. I think the answer actually lay
Speaker 3: in the australianness of it.
Speaker 2: Hi, don't read.
Speaker 3: You're really advocating for your community essentially.
Speaker 2: Hi Tom, great to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have you on the show because
Speaker 1: we're talking about Heartbreak High, which I knew through your
Speaker 1: sister that you were writing, and so I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: that's so amazing. But then to come and watch it,
Speaker 1: to see it come to fruition and it to be
Speaker 1: a hit, it is a proud, proud friend moment.
Speaker 3: It's actually insane. Like I was saying the other day,
Speaker 3: you've got you've got a show that gets released and
Speaker 3: it could be a flop or it could be good.
Speaker 3: But then this is like beyond both of those things,
Speaker 3: where there's actually no there's no real way to prepare
Speaker 3: for a hit that catches on this quickly, particularly with
Speaker 3: the demographic it's aimed at. They go rabbit like. It's
Speaker 3: got a fan base that kind of formed within a
Speaker 3: week of its release. So it's been it's been really
Speaker 3: cool and also kind of like crazy.
Speaker 1: Isn't it weird that the rest of the world now
Speaker 1: is as protective and passionate about these characters as you
Speaker 1: must have been creating them. It's like an episode of
Speaker 1: Buffy where you just saw it a whole lot of
Speaker 1: Buffies out there and now got this Heartbreak High superpower.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, instead of vampires, they're all like queer, which
Speaker 3: is even better. I guess that's Buffy. Actually, yeah, it
Speaker 3: definitely felt It definitely felt like to break the season
Speaker 3: and to build and create the characters from literally nothing,
Speaker 3: like we created them from our lived experience and we
Speaker 3: went if we like we all got hired on Heartbreak High,
Speaker 3: and it was kind of like, what does this look like?
Speaker 3: What is a reboot of the show going to look like?
Speaker 3: And kind of it was like, well, I want to
Speaker 3: see this sort of story and I've never seen it
Speaker 3: on Australian TV and I would really passionately advocate for,
Speaker 3: you know, the characters that I kind of shaped or pitched,
Speaker 3: and then to see that and you're running off a
Speaker 3: hunch that like people want to see it as well,
Speaker 3: and it's not just you, like not having had therapy,
Speaker 3: and so it's actually like maybe other people want to
Speaker 3: watch this, and so then it kind of goes out
Speaker 3: into the world and you know, to see the tiktoks
Speaker 3: and the tweets and all of the posts about you know,
Speaker 3: particularly the queer characters, has been really validating and pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: I think you also helped all of your friends and
Speaker 1: family because we've all become a little bit cooler because
Speaker 1: we can say that we know someone who was a creator.
Speaker 2: And it was funny.
Speaker 1: I was saying to someone in the industry the other day,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I know somebody who worked on it.
Speaker 1: They were like, oh, which actor? And I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I know one of the writers that were like what.
Speaker 1: They were like, oh my god. And isn't it weird
Speaker 1: that the creative team behind a show like this could
Speaker 1: be just has celebrated these days as the people as
Speaker 1: the actors, you know, because everyone knows how bold the
Speaker 1: choices have been. Everyone knows how much this must have
Speaker 1: been scrutinized over.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it was really risky as well,
Speaker 3: Like I think the Netflix were kind of like from
Speaker 3: the day one, it was like, let's take a big
Speaker 3: swing and see if we land it. And you know,
Speaker 3: it was my first TV it was my first professional
Speaker 3: TV gig. You know, I'd written my own things and
Speaker 3: I'd made a film and films, et cetera. But I
Speaker 3: was essentially like completely green and a really big risk
Speaker 3: for them to take. Turning around one day and saying, hey,
Speaker 3: we want you to write episode five and I was like, fuck, yeah,
Speaker 3: I can't swear, can I?
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, hell, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: mine my heart Radio Australia.
Speaker 2: Thank you for letting us swear?
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. Yeah, I kind of I kind of
Speaker 3: threw myself at it. And you know, they yeah, they
Speaker 3: I think power to Netflix. They really had nothing to lose.
Speaker 3: They were like, we've just opened in Australia. Let's go ham,
Speaker 3: let's see you know, let's create something we can be
Speaker 3: proud of as Aussies for the global stage. And this stuff.
Speaker 3: I mean, it didn't exist, like it didn't exist a
Speaker 3: decade ago, like that very conversation. Like when I was
Speaker 3: starting out, I would never have believed that I would
Speaker 3: be able to stay in Australia and make this show
Speaker 3: and make the work I wanted to make. It was
Speaker 3: not an option like we going through film school like
Speaker 3: a decade ago. It was like you leave, you have
Speaker 3: to leave, you know.
Speaker 1: I've always thought that there was something extraordinarily special about
Speaker 1: your storytelling, even from a young age. Like I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I might have met you when you were
Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen, but you were hanging out with your
Speaker 1: sister's friends and you could hold the consciousness of everyone
Speaker 1: that was quite a lot older than you, And I
Speaker 1: think that's like, that must be just a talent that's
Speaker 1: a part of you, which you've then been able to
Speaker 1: sort of cultivate.
Speaker 3: I guess definitely being the youngest sibling and being obsessed
Speaker 3: with your other sibling and like being like always listening
Speaker 3: and being like I want to be like them, and
Speaker 3: sort of like emulating my siblings to the point where
Speaker 3: if I think about it for too long, I'm like,
Speaker 3: who am I really like? I'm just like just a
Speaker 3: series of things I've stolen off my relatives. But honestly,
Speaker 3: it definitely has helped my screenwriting for sure, to be
Speaker 3: to be a part of such a big family and
Speaker 3: a kind of funny, loud, super gay family like it
Speaker 3: kind of It's absolutely been the foundation of my writing voice.
Speaker 1: You know, where do you think your passion for TV,
Speaker 1: film and storytelling came from?
Speaker 2: Do you think it was that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've sat in the backyard of your older
Speaker 1: sister Perry's backyard and heard you all as a family
Speaker 1: talking and all of you are creative, and I'm just
Speaker 1: like it was like a writer's room actually.
Speaker 3: You know, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: There was never a time where we were having a
Speaker 1: conversation about something that you know, wasn't pop culture mixed
Speaker 1: with something that was happening in the news, you know.
Speaker 1: So what do you think for TV?
Speaker 3: Storytelling came from I think we all got it from
Speaker 3: our grandma. She like she ran she opened this regional
Speaker 3: theater in Nara on the south coast of New South
Speaker 3: Wales called the Narrow Players in nineteen fifty one. So
Speaker 3: like we kind of grew up in the theater and
Speaker 3: I think I maybe unconsciously kind of had an ear
Speaker 3: for dialogue because I was always in the theater and
Speaker 3: listening to plays and stuff. And then I think we
Speaker 3: all became it's actually that and like Gilmore Girls, if
Speaker 3: I'm really honest, like we were obsessed with Gilmore Girls
Speaker 3: as a family, and you can absolutely hear that in
Speaker 3: my writing style, Like I think that kind of just
Speaker 3: bred us as this sort of we're all a bit
Speaker 3: loud and not even loud that way We're just a bit,
Speaker 3: you know, we just say stuff, we speak up. We
Speaker 3: kind of were very opinionated, and that's in all of
Speaker 3: my work. But I think, particularly with TV and comedy,
Speaker 3: I don't because I really started in drama, so I
Speaker 3: was like drama, drama, drama, and then I moved into
Speaker 3: comedy in the last few years and didn't expect to
Speaker 3: kind of have it be so come so naturally to me,
Speaker 3: but it just does. Like, you know, I really love
Speaker 3: writing comedy, you know, and that you know, everything I
Speaker 3: write is about my siblings in one way or another,
Speaker 3: and Heartbreak Eye is kind of just like my siblings,
Speaker 3: but they're all school kids, you know. You can kind
Speaker 3: of see parts of all of them in there.
Speaker 1: Is there something that you stand for when it comes
Speaker 1: to creating content? You know?
Speaker 2: Is there a signature Tom Wilson.
Speaker 1: White theme that you skirt around or people would say,
Speaker 1: what's your work?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Like I think that I ran away and wrote
Speaker 3: my did my master's degree on sort of like queer
Speaker 3: storytelling and hopefully the future of it and ways to
Speaker 3: kind of challenge, you know, the broader audience's idea of
Speaker 3: what a queer story looks and feels like. And so
Speaker 3: I think it has been a real passion of mine
Speaker 3: to bake queenness into the stories in a way that
Speaker 3: we're not used to, where it is kind of almost commonplace,
Speaker 3: and it's no longer about kind of coming out or
Speaker 3: being a lesbian who dies tragically. It's you know, it's
Speaker 3: actually more about celebrating and honoring queerness and the way
Speaker 3: that it changes our points of view, but also just
Speaker 3: the universality of our experiences as humans, you know, and
Speaker 3: hopefully moving it forward into a way. And that's kind
Speaker 3: of I think that's kind of the signature I was
Speaker 3: able to put on Heartbreak Eye from in the writer's
Speaker 3: room was you know, I really wanted queer characters who
Speaker 3: broke out of the sort of tropes that we've been given,
Speaker 3: you know, historically, particularly in TV as well, Like there's
Speaker 3: always like the gay best friend. We all know that stereotype,
Speaker 3: but how do we how do we take you know,
Speaker 3: that and kind of subvert it. And I think that's
Speaker 3: kind of why the Darren and Cash storyline was sprung
Speaker 3: from that. It is like Darren is almost that and
Speaker 3: Cash is the antithesis of that, and what challenges every
Speaker 3: single thing about themselves that they know. That's kind of
Speaker 3: where it came from and why I'm so excited to
Speaker 3: tell stories like that in Australia because I still think,
Speaker 3: you know, we are kind of a little bit behind
Speaker 3: in our stories some way we craft them.
Speaker 2: What was your relationship like with Heartbreak? High?
Speaker 1: Because the original series was groundbreaking for its time. I
Speaker 1: remember being in high school when it was on television.
Speaker 1: Everyone would run home and watch it. I grew up
Speaker 1: in Doncaster and Templestow where it was a very Italian
Speaker 1: Greek suburb. So I just remember at school they wouldn't
Speaker 1: have said it this many words because they were school kids, right,
Speaker 1: but they were like, oh, we're on television, you know,
Speaker 1: because we hadn't seen that much cultural diversity in a
Speaker 1: series before. But so it had the landscape, it had
Speaker 1: the foundation I think for us to be bolder with that,
Speaker 1: you know, with that concept. But yeah, what was your
Speaker 1: relationship with Heartbreak? That's my original question.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, it's really interesting though, everything you say,
Speaker 3: because it is I think we pulled. We looked at
Speaker 3: the original and we were like, so what was it
Speaker 3: doing in its era? And it was it was groundbreaking
Speaker 3: and it was it was diverse, in a way that
Speaker 3: nineties Australia was diverse and for its time was really
Speaker 3: covering a lot of things, a lot of subject matter
Speaker 3: that Australian TV just wasn't covering. So in updating it,
Speaker 3: you go, okay, well, what's the twenty twenty two version
Speaker 3: of those themes? You know? And it's you know, there's
Speaker 3: it's like body autonomy and gender and sexuality and race
Speaker 3: and all of these big things where we're like, so
Speaker 3: that's what we're going to that's what we're going to tackle.
Speaker 3: But my connection to it was through Perry, through my
Speaker 3: big sister, so knowing I knew of it, but I
Speaker 3: totally missed it. Like I think I was way too
Speaker 3: young to have watched it, But I think that it's
Speaker 3: always had when you hear the words heartbreak Kyi, it
Speaker 3: has a mythology to it. It's kind of part of
Speaker 3: our culture. So when they when I got the call
Speaker 3: being like, hey, do you want an interview for this
Speaker 3: show or like they want you to interview for the
Speaker 3: show Heartbreak High, I was like, oh my god, that's
Speaker 3: going to be a hit. Like I remember as soon
Speaker 3: as I heard the words, I was like a rebit
Speaker 3: of that right now, in this day and age is
Speaker 3: going to be if it's done right. I was like,
Speaker 3: that is going to go off because we don't have
Speaker 3: we don't have an equivalent in Australia right now, a
Speaker 3: show that is really tackling what it is to be
Speaker 3: a young adult right now in Australia. So yeah, that
Speaker 3: was my connection. I've never actually watched any of it,
Speaker 3: but when I did watch all of it before my interview,
Speaker 3: I went on this deep dive and watched, you know,
Speaker 3: twenty five episodes. I was like, okay, cool, you know,
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 1: I spoke to Perry, your sister for people listening to this,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about something to do with work. I
Speaker 1: think she sent me a book and I said thank you,
Speaker 1: and she told me or work on the show. And
Speaker 1: then I went back and watched. I think I watched
Speaker 1: season one and season two and then the last season
Speaker 1: of it, just because I wanted to refresh.
Speaker 2: I was like, I just want to refresh and I
Speaker 2: want to remember.
Speaker 1: It and it was still groundbreaking, and I thought to myself,
Speaker 1: why do you you know? And I thought, for you,
Speaker 1: a good question is why do you think we didn't
Speaker 1: see more of this or why do you think it's
Speaker 1: taken so long to continue what Heartbreak High was doing
Speaker 1: almost two decades ago.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting question. Like I think I also think
Speaker 3: young adult can be you know, the big wigs can
Speaker 3: kind of you know, be quite patronizing to young adult
Speaker 3: content and be like yeah, whatever, But actually, like young
Speaker 3: adult is like culture defining, like as a genre. You know,
Speaker 3: I think back to you know, Gossip Girl, the OC,
Speaker 3: like the big ones that were like smack bang in
Speaker 3: my high school journey, and they really defined who I
Speaker 3: was and how I kind of identified and found myself.
Speaker 3: But it can also kind of be like, yeah, but
Speaker 3: that's just like, you know, that's just what the kids
Speaker 3: are watching. So I think I often feel like ya
Speaker 3: as a genre is where a lot of really exciting
Speaker 3: stuff is actually happening, and there's some really exciting dialogues
Speaker 3: about who we are as people and growing up and
Speaker 3: big political topical stuff. But maybe it's just not seen
Speaker 3: that way. But I brought the broader audience perhaps, But
Speaker 3: it is changing. I think. You know, then you activate
Speaker 3: teenagers with social media, and the thing that changes is
Speaker 3: that now it's so much easier to see the impact
Speaker 3: these shows have because you know, Euphoria is if there's
Speaker 3: a season of Euphoria out, it's literally everywhere you can't
Speaker 3: escape it. And the cult status of shows like that
Speaker 3: in the fan bases, you know, it's actually kind of
Speaker 3: terrifying how many people watch that stuff.
Speaker 1: That show was in that show, you would have had
Speaker 1: to watch some of that before making this, and you
Speaker 1: would be like, oh, I'm so inspired by this, but
Speaker 1: you don't want to mimic that, Like do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like you could easily try and remake
Speaker 1: that in a way where that's not that it's got
Speaker 1: an Australian flavor to it.
Speaker 2: And also, what I thought.
Speaker 1: Was more interesting is I can't remember a time where
Speaker 1: the actors felt like they were actually playing their age.
Speaker 1: You know, for so long we were watching the scott
Speaker 1: Wolfs of the world playing Party of five or even
Speaker 1: back to nine to two to zero. But then even
Speaker 1: Gossip Girl, a lot of these shows have these actors
Speaker 1: that are too old to be playing these roles or
Speaker 1: selling it well enough. And this show really feels like
Speaker 1: it's snapshot of real people of the same age.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. I think the firstly, the casting is
Speaker 3: like sublime, and you know, as they were casting these roles.
Speaker 3: I remember being like, well, this is so exciting, Like
Speaker 3: it really is the cast of our dreams that we
Speaker 3: really wanted, real people, and they're so talented and really wonderful.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I definitely feel like we all watched Euphoria, and we
Speaker 3: were watching you know, sex Education and all of like
Speaker 3: the big high school shows that are out right now,
Speaker 3: and then going where's a space that exists beyond all
Speaker 3: of those shows that we can occupy? And I think
Speaker 3: I think the answer actually lay in the australianness of it,
Speaker 3: like it, you know, we have a really really specific
Speaker 3: sense of humor and sensibility here that has often been
Speaker 3: kind of cringey, you know, like on TV. And we
Speaker 3: were like, how do we embrace it? Because we are
Speaker 3: very funny and very self effacing, and you know, we
Speaker 3: kind of do just take the Pierce a lot. But
Speaker 3: we're also you know, uniquely positioned over here in all
Speaker 3: these other weird ways that I think come out in
Speaker 3: the show. You know that, And that's kind of what
Speaker 3: I think people are kind of picking up is that
Speaker 3: it's so weirdly Australian, like we are kind of very
Speaker 3: left of center over here, so I think that was
Speaker 3: like the nice I think that's the nice place that
Speaker 3: the show's fine found is kind of a space beyond
Speaker 3: euphoria and beyond sex ed and like somewhere else that
Speaker 3: I think they all speak to each other. For sure.
Speaker 1: There is a danger of being too woke or turning
Speaker 1: off your audience by ticking too many boxes, which we
Speaker 1: saw with and Just Like That, which was the reboot
Speaker 1: of Sex and the City.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
Speaker 1: You know, what do you think the failure in and
Speaker 1: Just Like That had with people turning off because it
Speaker 1: was too woe where you all succeeded.
Speaker 3: I have so many feelings about this topic because I
Speaker 3: felt very passionate about this in the room when we
Speaker 3: were writing the show, and I was also the queer
Speaker 3: consultant on the show, so I read all the scripts
Speaker 3: with the proviso that I would go through and read
Speaker 3: any time a queer character spoke or you know, and
Speaker 3: offer suggestions and kind of you know, basically just kind
Speaker 3: of use my own internal compass to go no, I
Speaker 3: would never say that and or like, you know, and
Speaker 3: it didn't happen that much. The writers are fantastic, They're
Speaker 3: all incredible, but We were really conscious going through this series,
Speaker 3: like people are going to expect this to be so
Speaker 3: woke that it's unwatchable. You know, people are going to
Speaker 3: expect every character to open their mouth and be like, well,
Speaker 3: I identify as blah blah blah and blah. So actually
Speaker 3: you're canceled, like that is what everyone's wanting, expecting Hartbrekhi
Speaker 3: to be. So we were kind of like, let's make
Speaker 3: them flawed, and let's make them let's embrace their identities
Speaker 3: and their differences, but let's not sent a story around it,
Speaker 3: and let's go for you know, universality and the storytellings
Speaker 3: and the themes. And I think it was actually just
Speaker 3: about looking at it and going, we're not going to
Speaker 3: pat ourselves on the back because we have this incredibly
Speaker 3: diverse cast and this you know cast of people that
Speaker 3: are all intersectional in their identities. We're not going to
Speaker 3: signpost it so that you know that we know and
Speaker 3: that you know we've all read like fifty million articles
Speaker 3: about this, where like we're just going to dig into
Speaker 3: the guts of these characters and put up something it
Speaker 3: feels real, and I think, you know, with something like
Speaker 3: and just like that, it felt like they needed they
Speaker 3: had this urge to tell you that they know about
Speaker 3: the world or something to be like, this is a
Speaker 3: non binary queer person who every joke is going to
Speaker 3: be about their identity, every line they say is going
Speaker 3: to be about their identity. Where it's like, when's the
Speaker 3: last time you've said that in real life? When's the
Speaker 3: last time that that sentence has come out of your mouth?
Speaker 3: Because often it's just kind of like you wake up
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh my god, I need to take
Speaker 3: a shit. It's not like, oh my god, I'm a queer,
Speaker 3: you know, blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Why I'm going to go and have myself the glitter shit?
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, you know, not everything.
Speaker 1: Has to be queerized or whatever it is, but you know,
Speaker 1: and that's when you're turning off your audience, I think,
Speaker 1: is when you stop being authentic. And if you're trying
Speaker 1: to be authentic, you have to talk from a place
Speaker 1: of knowing. And I don't know this for a fact,
Speaker 1: but I wonder whether or not they had someone like
Speaker 1: you in the writer's room for and just like that,
Speaker 1: you know, and I remember reading somewhere that it might
Speaker 1: have been hard to bring people in because they weren't
Speaker 1: sort of they could trust them with the stories and
Speaker 1: you know that they had their people, but to me,
Speaker 1: it didn't seem like it came from a place of authenticity.
Speaker 1: And for me, I still loved that show while everyone
Speaker 1: fucking hated it, but it certainly was absolutely rubbish online.
Speaker 1: While you guys were.
Speaker 3: Applauded, I mean, I don't know who the writing team
Speaker 3: was either, And in all honesty, though the parts that
Speaker 3: I have seen of it, I was like, I just
Speaker 3: wish they weren't centering because essentially what they're saying is
Speaker 3: if your queer or non binary or whatever, that is
Speaker 3: the most interesting thing about you, and that is the
Speaker 3: thing we're going to focus on. And that's really frustrating
Speaker 3: because then the sis gendered straight as you know, mostly
Speaker 3: white people and their storylines. They get all of this drama,
Speaker 3: you know, they get all of the stories, but the
Speaker 3: sort of marginalized people, it's just reinforced the only interesting
Speaker 3: thing about you is your marginalization, and not like just
Speaker 3: give them a big I don't know, divorce storyline or
Speaker 3: some shit. I don't know, but you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: I think this is.
Speaker 1: A really good audition, by the way, for your writing
Speaker 1: on and just like that the second series, which they're
Speaker 1: already going, I need to fly over there. And you know,
Speaker 1: you have to take every single one of us that
Speaker 1: was in New York ten years ago, because we were
Speaker 1: all dreaming of living there and now we're in a
Speaker 1: moving entourage where we just basically live all of the
Speaker 1: money and says.
Speaker 3: You can just be by just by living, interviewer, we
Speaker 3: can just past publicity for me. No, I'm kidding, Well,
Speaker 3: I'll take it.
Speaker 1: I'll take a cut of the check if you get
Speaker 1: that phone call after miraculously doing TV reload here in Australia.
Speaker 1: You know, if someone wrote to me after I did
Speaker 1: an interview about Master Chef and they were from the
Speaker 1: New Yorker and they got some soundbites from me about
Speaker 1: that show Masterschef, from what I thought about its success,
Speaker 1: considering that there hadn't ever been a successful cooking show
Speaker 1: like that in America. They were flabbergasted by the talent
Speaker 1: of the chefs and the talent of the contestants, and
Speaker 1: the fact that they would all be willing to be
Speaker 1: on a show like that. They were like, it would
Speaker 1: never happen in America anyway, but it was very interesting
Speaker 1: to me and that someone from The New Yorker wrote
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: And when that email turned up success.
Speaker 3: I just went back to New York. I got back
Speaker 3: two weeks ago. It's the first time I've been back
Speaker 3: since we were all there, and it was so depressing
Speaker 3: to be there alone.
Speaker 2: I have a confession to make, and that is when
Speaker 2: I feel sad. I want that video of all of
Speaker 2: us miming too.
Speaker 3: Where young, I know, makes me cry. I can't watch it. Ah,
Speaker 3: But it's also we were young, and that's why I'm like,
Speaker 3: I can't look at this.
Speaker 2: I am thirty killers.
Speaker 1: I reckon more than the waight I was in that
Speaker 1: video and I remember thinking I looked fat in that
Speaker 1: video and what a fucking mistake. Then I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: you will be bigger than this. This is to celebrate
Speaker 1: it anyway, No one cares about this. I have to
Speaker 1: ask about the process of creating these characters and how
Speaker 1: did the story come together. You kind of teased us
Speaker 1: before by saying that you know, you started with a
Speaker 1: blank canvas in a way, or I might be putting
Speaker 1: words into your mouth, but how do you even start
Speaker 1: something like this?
Speaker 2: And how did you get it from there to here?
Speaker 3: So I came onto the show and there had already
Speaker 3: been some initial development. So I came into the room
Speaker 3: and there was a couple There was probably like twenty
Speaker 3: maybe characters just floating around and they weren't really named yet,
Speaker 3: but it was more like they were vessels for certain stories,
Speaker 3: I guess, so like people with people in the room
Speaker 3: are kind of saying, you know, oh, it would be
Speaker 3: great if there was a character that could have a
Speaker 3: journey like this, And you know, I read this article
Speaker 3: and you know they were talking about this, so like
Speaker 3: why don't we have a character that can go through
Speaker 3: that experience or whatever. So it's very much like responding
Speaker 3: to the day and age we were in. And this
Speaker 3: is twenty twenty, so it was the end of twenty
Speaker 3: twenty beginning of twenty twenty one, so it was we
Speaker 3: were also kind of thinking ahead, like what's going to
Speaker 3: be of interest to an audience in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: So I kind of I came in and how to
Speaker 3: kind of roll the decks of ideas because I was like,
Speaker 3: this is a really big opportunity for me and I
Speaker 3: really want to, you know, smash it. So I came
Speaker 3: in and I was like, look, I really want to
Speaker 3: explore asexuality and men. I think it's something that's never
Speaker 3: touched on. I really want to explore promiscuity in gay culture.
Speaker 3: And you know, those two things are just like like
Speaker 3: the opposites of each other. So how to like, let's
Speaker 3: have a romance and let's tell a love story where
Speaker 3: those two people have to kind of figure out how
Speaker 3: to be together even though they're from opposite and ends
Speaker 3: of the sexual spectrum. And that was a really exciting
Speaker 3: place to start, and very much I was like, I
Speaker 3: would love to explore intimacy in a queer relationship because
Speaker 3: it's so often not depicted that way in media, and
Speaker 3: we're often given like quite you know, aggressive bombs of
Speaker 3: you know, sex or whatever, or illustrations of that and
Speaker 3: nightclubs and all of these things that are absolutely part
Speaker 3: of quick culture. But at the same time, I was like,
Speaker 3: but I don't want it to go near that. I
Speaker 3: would love it to be them falling in love in
Speaker 3: this quite romantic, sort of almost Disney way. So that's
Speaker 3: kind of where Cash and Darren sort of sprang from.
Speaker 3: And then you know, there was these incredible writers in
Speaker 3: the room who were pouring themselves into their characters. And
Speaker 3: Hannah Carol Chapman, the creator, she always says, like, the
Speaker 3: characters you see on screen are the writers who were
Speaker 3: in the room. Like we all had characters. We would
Speaker 3: come to work every day and fight for them and
Speaker 3: pitch ideas for them, and you know, and it's just
Speaker 3: so nice to see that the result of that is
Speaker 3: a really well loved, well received show. You know, we
Speaker 3: were all kind of validated that in that journey because
Speaker 3: you really are It can fit like life and death
Speaker 3: in that room, like you know, you're really advocating for
Speaker 3: your community essentially, and that's scary as well, because it's
Speaker 3: like what if this comes out and the queer community
Speaker 3: are like, no thanks, we hate it, you know, and
Speaker 3: then you're like little So you know, there's it was
Speaker 3: very high stakes at times because you wanted it to be.
Speaker 3: It meant so much to you.
Speaker 1: What about creating characters and spending time with a character.
Speaker 1: Was there a particular character that you enjoyed writing for
Speaker 1: more than anyone else.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think Cash is one of my favorites.
Speaker 3: I love the character. I love writing for Darren and
Speaker 3: Sasha because you know, they kind of Darren has some
Speaker 3: great one line's and Sasha if you just kind of
Speaker 3: love to hate her a little bit and that's kind
Speaker 3: of why I love writing for her. And she has
Speaker 3: a couple of lines in my episode that are like
Speaker 3: my favorite lines I've ever written. One of them is
Speaker 3: I read the Ethical Slot when I was six years old,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yes, like I can die happy that
Speaker 3: I somehow jammed a line like that into a show
Speaker 3: for Netflix. But I also love I love writing Harper
Speaker 3: because she's so she's so flammable, Like she's a great
Speaker 3: character to write because she goes, she burns everything to
Speaker 3: the ground instead of instead of processing anything, she just goes,
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm gonna just do something, you know,
Speaker 3: And that's really that's really exciting to write, you know.
Speaker 1: Will we get to see more Heartbreak High? Do you
Speaker 1: know where this show is going at the moment where
Speaker 1: it is in the world, and will you be working
Speaker 1: on Well?
Speaker 3: Look, but it's there. I think they're waiting to see. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean we're currently in limbo and that's the we're
Speaker 3: just waiting to see the get the green light from Netflix.
Speaker 3: I imagine in terms of like about the future of it,
Speaker 3: But I'm I mean, I keep saying to everybody, it
Speaker 3: would be crazy to me if there isn't another season.
Speaker 3: And there's also been fantastic shows that have had the
Speaker 3: plug called, so you just don't know.
Speaker 1: I was talking to someone in television today and I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm talking.
Speaker 2: To one of the writers and I was like, what
Speaker 2: do you know about it?
Speaker 1: Do you know how far along the decision is at Netflix,
Speaker 1: because it'd be great to talk about it with Tom
Speaker 1: And he was like, I haven't heard anything, but he
Speaker 1: was like, there's no way known those actors won't come back,
Speaker 1: those writers won't come back, and that Netflix won't pick
Speaker 1: it up again because there hasn't been something so successful
Speaker 1: that's made, that's content being made in Australia for the
Speaker 1: streaming platforms like this. You know, this has been a
Speaker 1: long time in the making for a lot of people
Speaker 1: in Australia wanting to tell our story and for audiences
Speaker 1: to have adopted it like this. It's like you finally
Speaker 1: someone is listening and that television is aspirational and we
Speaker 1: should be able to see ourselves on screen. We should
Speaker 1: be able to feel okay about who we are because
Speaker 1: we're like, Oh, this person's real.
Speaker 2: You know I'm going back.
Speaker 1: You've got any ideas as to what you would want
Speaker 1: to do with any of the characters moving forward?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, one hundreds and thousand. I have so
Speaker 3: many ideas that I'm bursting at the seams. But I
Speaker 3: really want to give What do I want? Who's my favorite?
Speaker 3: I really want Missy to have more screen time. Missy
Speaker 3: is Sasha's best friend. I love her. I think she's
Speaker 3: the actress Sherry Lee. She's incredible. So I very much
Speaker 3: am like, you know, if there is a season two,
Speaker 3: I'm like scheming of ways to give Missy like a
Speaker 3: lead story of some sort, because and I know online
Speaker 3: people are like they're chomping at the bit for more Missy.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if something fun for Harper would
Speaker 3: be cool, Like she's been through a lot in season
Speaker 3: one and she's often like everyone else gets to have fun,
Speaker 3: and half is like getting traumatized. So I would love
Speaker 3: to give Harper like a season two story that is
Speaker 3: an up and gives her some respite from what she's
Speaker 3: been through.
Speaker 1: My thing is well not survive another episode like the
Speaker 1: finale of Heartbreak High, like the first half of that finale,
Speaker 1: I was like gobbledoc and I ate off all my fingernails.
Speaker 1: And something I ask everybody who joins the podcast is
Speaker 1: what's something from behind the scenes, something that we didn't see,
Speaker 1: something that we won't see, kind of an entertaining behind
Speaker 1: the scenes story from your time making Heartbreak.
Speaker 3: I've actually stayed up at night thinking about this question
Speaker 3: since you told me to prepare for it, because I
Speaker 3: was like, I'm trying to find like a funny behind
Speaker 3: the scenes moment. I think, yeah, I couldn't land on one.
Speaker 3: I do have one in terms of the behind the
Speaker 3: scenes that kind of trivia that I found personally really
Speaker 3: incredible and moving. Was we cast the show and then
Speaker 3: went into production and because and obviously spoiler alert if
Speaker 3: you haven't watched it, stop listening, but essentially like Harper
Speaker 3: shaves her head in the last episode of the show,
Speaker 3: but it's actually the first chronological event in the series,
Speaker 3: and it was so so Asher, the actress, who's absolutely divine,
Speaker 3: got told the first day of shooting Heartbreak high You're
Speaker 3: gonna shave your head in a mirror and have this huge,
Speaker 3: cathartic emotional experience on camera. She's never acted as the
Speaker 3: character before. It's the first time she's on set as Harper,
Speaker 3: and to watch that back after, to watch the whole
Speaker 3: season and watch that scene and how incredible she kind
Speaker 3: of strikes that chord and the performance she gives to
Speaker 3: also be like how confronting to shave your head for
Speaker 3: the first time in your life in front of a
Speaker 3: film crew, to not know, like you know, generally the
Speaker 3: shape of Harper's ark in the season, and how it's
Speaker 3: going to feel as an actor. I just thought it
Speaker 3: was absolutely amazing that she pulled that off, and I
Speaker 3: don't think it's something anyone would realize that, like for
Speaker 3: her to that, she had to shoot that scene first.
Speaker 3: So I just wanted to give a shout out to
Speaker 3: her because I think she's amazing.
Speaker 2: That is a brilliant That's a brilliant one.
Speaker 1: You're like, I don't know if I can end on one,
Speaker 1: and it's phenomenon.
Speaker 2: I don't want to sell you short. Actually you are.
Speaker 1: You have a gift of understand In my mind, this
Speaker 1: might not be true to you, but it's true to me.
Speaker 2: You have a gift of under selling it.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I guess, okay, I guess I'll be
Speaker 1: a writer one day, you know, and you're just like,
Speaker 1: fuck an oath, Tom, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, I think, to be honest, everyone was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I roll Tom's writing some high school show. And then
Speaker 3: I think slowly everyone was like, yeah, there's this massive
Speaker 3: billboard for it outside my house, and I was like, yeah, guys,
Speaker 3: kind of like a big deal. And then they all
Speaker 3: watched it and they were like, okay, sick, it's only
Speaker 3: taken me fourteen years to get here.
Speaker 1: Then who cares? Like, nothing's you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: sound like Oprah here, but nothing happens in a straight
Speaker 1: line in this universe.
Speaker 2: We go back, we.
Speaker 1: Go forward, and people are only as lucky to have
Speaker 1: kicked a tire and to have done something so per
Speaker 1: found and so provocative and so well executed as something
Speaker 1: like Heartbreak High. And yeah, I'm just really I'm just.
Speaker 2: Really proud of you.
Speaker 1: And I didn't want to say that in this podcast
Speaker 1: because I think it sounds really condescending, But people don't
Speaker 1: realize that I'm a lot older than you, so I'm
Speaker 1: allowed to say this because you're like a little brother.
Speaker 1: I am so grateful for your time and for being
Speaker 1: so generous and unpacking heartbreak high with me and talking
Speaker 1: honestly and from the heart.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your here.
Speaker 3: Let's do a follow up when we get a seven
Speaker 3: two please.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, and let's just not even do a
Speaker 1: follow up. I'll just get you to talk to me
Speaker 1: every now and again.
Speaker 3: Because I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: Been way too long