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Speaker 1: To what degree should we be monitoring our children? How

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Speaker 1: much should we be tracking them, watching where they are,

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Speaker 1: keeping a close eye on them just in case they

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Speaker 1: get into trouble? Is tracking kids healthy or unhealthy surveillance?

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Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families podcast, we unpack the degree

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Speaker 1: to which we should be flying the drone over their

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Speaker 1: head as they walk to school, keeping an eye on

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Speaker 1: them to keep them safe.

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Speaker 2: Stay with us goday.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Family's podcast, where you get real

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Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's most.

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Speaker 2: Downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 1: We adjusted and Kylie corson Parents of six Children.

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Speaker 2: I'm the writer author of what Is It?

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Speaker 1: Ten or eleven books about raising a happy family, and

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Speaker 1: we received this question from Loretta that sparked our curiosity.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I was wondering if you could have a discussion

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Speaker 3: around apps such as Life through sixty and some of

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Speaker 3: the implications around their use. I understand most parents would

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Speaker 3: use these apps with great intentions, innocently and for safety,

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Speaker 3: particularly when their kids and teens start using public transport.

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Speaker 3: But I guess my concern is twofold is how that

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Speaker 3: impacts the developing autonomy and that transition from dependence to

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Speaker 3: independence where it kind of seems like the parent is

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Speaker 3: letting go and allowing that adolescence to have that freedom

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Speaker 3: and autonomy, but in reality they're not because they're actually

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Speaker 3: tracking their every move and they can use that for

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Speaker 3: punishment like why did you go and stop at this cafe?

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Speaker 3: And the other thing is is it normalizing tracking and stalking.

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Speaker 4: Both to say to kids that it's okay to track

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Speaker 4: or stalk someone and it's okay to be tracked or stalk.

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Speaker 4: What does that do for our future adults and our

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Speaker 4: future relationships, but also in families where they might already

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Speaker 4: be control and behavior and some domestic abuse and even violence.

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Speaker 4: Does this reinforce that? And is it safe?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So I'm just going to put it out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I don't even know what these apps are. I've never

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Speaker 5: heard of them. So I why are you laughing at me?

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Speaker 1: Because I get emails pretty regularly from people from organizations.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I've had one from this specific

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Speaker 1: one that Loretta's referencing, but I'm often asked to be

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Speaker 1: an ambassador for a variety of these tracking apps, these

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Speaker 1: surveillance apps. These apps are out there to basically take

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Speaker 1: your money so that you can keep an eye on

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Speaker 1: your children wherever they are.

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Speaker 5: So we have a stalker in our home.

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Speaker 2: Our eldest daughter.

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Speaker 1: Seriously, she'll give us a phone call and she's like, so,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing at such and such at the moment,

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Speaker 1: And we're like, oh, my goodness, because we've we've got

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Speaker 1: the Apple connectivity thing, and she's got the fine mind.

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Speaker 1: She knows where we are. It's like, I got to

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Speaker 1: switch this off.

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Speaker 5: This is the same kid who actually got into my

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Speaker 5: phone as a sixteen year old and turned off her

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Speaker 5: location so that we did not know so we couldn't

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Speaker 5: find her.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Loretta's question. We're not going to spend

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Speaker 1: ages on this. It's pretty simple. There's a reason that

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Speaker 1: I say no every time I'm asked to be an

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Speaker 1: ambassador for a new app that stalks your kids, because

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Speaker 1: stalking your children is an inappropriate form of control. It's unnecessary,

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Speaker 1: it's not healthy for them, and frankly, it's not healthy

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Speaker 1: for you. We are the most stressed out, most most

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Speaker 1: anxious parents in the history of the world, well at

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Speaker 1: least since we've been recording anxiety in parenting, and our

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Speaker 1: children are the most stressed out, anxious children because they

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Speaker 1: are being overparented.

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Speaker 5: So I'm going to stop you there, right because I

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Speaker 5: think that the whole wording around tracking and stalking our

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Speaker 5: children has a really really negative connotation.

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Speaker 2: I am being inflammatory, and.

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Speaker 5: Obviously there are going to be some people who are

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Speaker 5: doing that. But we share our location as a family,

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Speaker 5: so we know where each other are and it literally

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Speaker 5: is there for oh, she said she was going to

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Speaker 5: be home an hour ago. I'm just checking how close

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Speaker 5: she is to the house, and depending on where she is,

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Speaker 5: we might give her a quick phone call and just say, hey,

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Speaker 5: it looks like you're still in Cabulja. We were going

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Speaker 5: to leave. Like it's not a But this is for.

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Speaker 1: Our adult kids, right, and they've all got the opt

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Speaker 1: in option.

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Speaker 2: So one of our kids has not opted in.

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Speaker 1: She hasn't unless she has an I don't know, but.

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Speaker 2: I have bother checking.

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Speaker 1: It's really like, oh, hang on, I was expecting.

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Speaker 5: It's their big sister. She's the stalker. She's the one

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Speaker 5: who checks in.

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Speaker 1: Basically, here's the situation. We are told relentlessly, I mean

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Speaker 1: absolutely unequivocally, the danger is everywhere, and the childhood is fragile,

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Speaker 1: and that if we do not know where our children

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Speaker 1: are at all times, that we are abrogating our responsibility

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Speaker 1: as parents, that we're totally.

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Speaker 2: Getting this wrong. The world is dangerous out.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're watching the news or if you're on

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Speaker 1: social but I don't, that's right, you don't. I've got

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Speaker 1: a colleague by the name of Claire Row. She's a

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Speaker 1: psychologist and she writes for some of the papers, and

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Speaker 1: a little while ago she wrote this. She said, when

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Speaker 1: parents outsource their anxiety management to technology, children pay the

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Speaker 1: developmental price. When we outsource our anxiety management to technology,

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Speaker 1: it's our children that pay the developmental price because when

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Speaker 1: they're constantly monitored, they learn that they're not trusted and

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Speaker 1: therefore they don't.

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Speaker 5: But they themselves they also learned to outsmart you, right,

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Speaker 5: So they if they know their privacy, if they know

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Speaker 5: that you're tracking them, then they leave their phone where

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Speaker 5: they say they're going to be and they disappear, or

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Speaker 5: do you know what I mean? Like, kids are so

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Speaker 5: switched on. If they want to find a loop in

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Speaker 5: the system, they're going to find a loophole.

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Speaker 1: So Loretta's comments cut to the very core of my

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Speaker 1: issues and the reason that I have not taken the

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Speaker 1: money from any of these companies, even though they've offered

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Speaker 1: it to me. And the reason I won't be an

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Speaker 1: ambassador for any of them, and that is because it's

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Speaker 1: developmentally appropriate that our children learn how to leave the

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Speaker 1: nest and not be monitored, and not be tracked and

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Speaker 1: not have surveillance.

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Speaker 2: We can use fun.

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Speaker 5: Worth if they're going to get in trouble, they can

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Speaker 5: call well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even think they need a phone.

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Speaker 1: It's not developmentally inappropriate to let your seven year old

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Speaker 1: go for a bike ride around the block, or to

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Speaker 1: let your nine year old go and hang out of

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Speaker 1: the park for an hour with their friend. It's not

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Speaker 1: developmentally inappropriate to let your twelve year old go to

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Speaker 1: the shops.

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Speaker 2: It's not developmentally.

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Speaker 1: Inappropriate to let your four year old go into the

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Speaker 1: next aisle and get the peanut butter that they like

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Speaker 1: and then bring it back to you in the supermarket,

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Speaker 1: or go and get an apple that they can eat

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Speaker 1: from the fruit and vegile like. These things are developmentally inappropriate.

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Speaker 1: We want our kids to be able to use public

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Speaker 1: transport and navigate the world. And we keep on saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: but I've got to keep them safe because we buy

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Speaker 1: this lie that the world is actually that unsafe. It's

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Speaker 1: not break Let's talk about the developmental realities and what

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Speaker 1: these apps are doing.

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Speaker 2: We're back.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. Should we be surveiling our kids?

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Speaker 1: Should we be tracking them? Should they know that we

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Speaker 1: know where they are at all times? I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: The short version is I don't think so. We need

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Speaker 1: to cut that umbilical cord. Research tells us, and has

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Speaker 1: done now for several decades, that the whole idea of

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Speaker 1: helping our children grow up is that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: learn how to handle the world. They become confident and

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Speaker 1: competent when they're allowed to go and explore and stretch

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Speaker 1: their boundaries further and further. That doesn't mean that we

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Speaker 1: just say, hey, kids, go.

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Speaker 5: Explore now, that's FAFO parenting.

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Speaker 1: Our approach has very much been if you want to

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Speaker 1: go and do this thing, let's talk about how you

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Speaker 1: can be safe. Let's talk about what you would do

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Speaker 1: if anything came up. Recently in our neighborhood, we were

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Speaker 1: approached by somebody who had appropriate knowledge that let us

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Speaker 1: know that there was somebody who had been a concern

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Speaker 1: a public safety concern in our neighborhood, and they approached

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Speaker 1: us to let us know about that because they knew

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Speaker 1: that we had a daughter who is set. He is

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Speaker 1: young and walks the dog for us a couple of

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Speaker 1: times a day and rome's the streets and they're like,

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Speaker 1: do you know what's going on up there? And we

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Speaker 1: said no, we hadn't heard. But that gave us a

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Speaker 1: perfect opportunity to sit down with our daughter and say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: there is somebody who is out there in our neighborhood

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Speaker 1: who may not always be safe. This is the person

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Speaker 1: that we're looking for, but it could be anybody because

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Speaker 1: there are other people who may also be unsafe. What

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Speaker 1: are the strategies that you need to know so that

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Speaker 1: you can be safe in case something happens?

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Speaker 2: And it worked.

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Speaker 1: I love the conversation we had with Lenorskanazzi, the World's

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Speaker 1: worst mum, now in charge of Free Range Kids, who's

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Speaker 1: or let grow Sorry. Her book Free Range Kids was

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Speaker 1: a New York Times bestseller. Who let her nine year

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Speaker 1: old son ride the subway a couple of stops home,

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Speaker 1: I mean New York City subway. It's not exactly the

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Speaker 1: safest place nine year old boy on his own kind

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Speaker 1: of scary.

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Speaker 2: She got absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Scared, and you were with me.

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Speaker 2: And our family.

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Speaker 5: And I won't say how old I was.

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Speaker 1: So this is a long way of saying, already, you're

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Speaker 1: right to be concerned about it. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: monitoring is healthy or safe or appropriate.

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Speaker 5: Can you tell our door to that?

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Speaker 1: But if you are going to do it, if you

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Speaker 1: are going to do it, the best way to do

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Speaker 1: it is to sit down with the kids and say,

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Speaker 1: here's what we'd like to do, here's why we'd like

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Speaker 1: to do it.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about it?

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Speaker 1: And when everyone buys into it and they know that

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Speaker 1: this is not about a crazy safety thing but it's

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Speaker 1: really just about a convenience thing, go for it.

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Speaker 5: And well, I guess the one cave that I would

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Speaker 5: share in relation to how we do it in our

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Speaker 5: home is you and I share our location as well,

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Speaker 5: so it's not it's not a one sided no, We're

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Speaker 5: all involved in And.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why we actually do this. We do

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Speaker 1: it because it's really annoying when I'm driving home and

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Speaker 1: I'm three minutes from home and I'm listening to a

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Speaker 1: really great podcast and I know it's only got five

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Speaker 1: minutes to go, and I'm thinking, I think I can

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Speaker 1: probably listen to the whole thing. You can get a

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Speaker 1: phone and I get a phone call.

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Speaker 2: How far away are you?

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Speaker 5: Where are you?

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Speaker 2: Look at the app?

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Speaker 1: I'm just around the corner, don't my podcast?

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Speaker 5: But not only that, because you travel a lot, for

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Speaker 5: each of us, it's actually just nice to check in

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Speaker 5: and go, oh, that's where Dad is. It just feels

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Speaker 5: like you're still part of us. So for us, it's

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Speaker 5: actually a really positive In spite of our elder daughter

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Speaker 5: who likes to check in.

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Speaker 1: I got a phone call from her the other day

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Speaker 1: and she goes, Dad, I was driving along. For those

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Speaker 1: who know the Sunshine Coast, I was driving along Kouanaway

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Speaker 1: past the home Makers Center. She goes, hey, Dad, what

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Speaker 1: are you doing driving past the Home Makers Center on Kuanaway?

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Speaker 1: And I was listening to a podcast. And I was

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Speaker 1: pretty annoyed that she'd rung me because I was right

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Speaker 1: in the middle of something that was really interesting. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, seriously, why are you always stalking me? And

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Speaker 1: she goes, no, I'm not stalking you.

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Speaker 2: Look left.

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Speaker 1: She was out and about doing some errands and she

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Speaker 1: was literally in the car beside me, moving along the

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Speaker 1: two lane road, and I was like, now I a

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Speaker 1: you an apology And I felt really special that she

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Speaker 1: wanted to call me hi because she was driving beside me.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides additional admin and other support.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like to ask us a question, send us

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Speaker 1: a voice. Note podcasts at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: au or jump onto our super simple system. It's so

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Speaker 1: easy to use at happyfamilies dot com dot au