1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers now. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: time poor parents who just wants answers now. Hopefully having 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: a wonderful, wonderful school holiday experience with your kids and 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: getting some extra parenting tips along the way. Today, we're 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: going to have a conversation about a topic that, let's 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: just say it like this, I'm going to we are 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: going to slay a sacred cow of parenting advice. On 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: the scale of degree of how severely bad some parenting 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: advice is. This one's not right up there with the 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: worst of it, but it's one of those things that 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: I just think needs a conversation now and then to 14 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: remind parents that the way we give feedback to our 15 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: children matters. I ran a presentation at a beautiful school 16 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: in the Redland Bay area, the sort of the bayside 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: area of Brisbane almost in college. And while I was 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: there and one of the questions from one of the 19 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: parents was what I'd do about, like, what's the right 20 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: way to praise my child when they do something well, 21 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: because I want to really encourage them and I want 22 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: them to be motivated to do their schoolwork and to 23 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: do well at sports and cross country and music and 24 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: all the things that this parent was invested in their 25 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: child doing well in. It was a great question, and 26 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: I had to do the big Okay, here we go. 27 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: We're going to go deep. I've got to take a 28 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,279 Speaker 1: deep breath, and that's what we're going to do today. 29 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: I just thought it was such an important thing for 30 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: us to talk about, because there is this belief out there, Kylie, 31 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: that was supposed to pump up our kids tires, to 32 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: make them feel good and to help them to be motivated. 33 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: So this is an area that kind of I think, 34 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: even as a parent and as an individual, take parenting 35 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 2: out of the equation that I really grapple with. In 36 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: my early childhood background, our lecturers used to talk to 37 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: us a lot about the need to not evaluate the 38 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: children within our care's efforts in any shape or form, 39 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: regardless of what it was, whether it was were at 40 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: the art table or they were doing plato or they 41 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: were just climbing the climbing frames. 42 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: That just don't evaluate. 43 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: There was no evaluation to be given, and so over 44 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: time you learn the art of asking questions as opposed 45 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: to labeling children. But I know all my own life, 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: when I do something really good and I'm really proud 47 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: of it, I want to hear that acknowledgment that someone 48 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: else recognizes the effort or the magnitude of what I've achieved. 49 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: I love that you're saying this because you've married the 50 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: guy who is a complete non praise. 51 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: Yeah totally, but no, no, no, let me finish. 52 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: Okay, we're butting all over. 53 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: But there are times where people have, for all intents 54 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: and purposes, evaluated what I've done, not to the standard 55 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: that I feel i've done it, And I'm like, you 56 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: don't have. 57 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: A clue that that was a really good effort and 58 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: you've just said good job. Yeah, yes, so I want. 59 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: I want recognition and acknowledgment, but I want it to 60 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: be to the levels that I think that it deserves. 61 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: And if I don't get it, then you're not praising 62 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: well enough. That doesn't work, So let's debunket. 63 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: You obviously are really really strong on this praise thing. 64 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: I really am. Yeah. I remember about twenty years ago 65 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: when our eldest was only quite young and we were 66 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: with some friends and I made this comment about how 67 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: it would be better to not praise the kids, and 68 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: he rolled his eyes. Steve rolled his eyes and said, oh, 69 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: are you one of those non praise people. And I 70 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I am. But there's actually good evidence 71 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: for it, and over the last twenty years we've got 72 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: even more evidence for it. So first of all, it's 73 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: probably worth just highlighting white people praise. I think we 74 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: need to spend some time there. We have this sense 75 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: that it's going to be motivating for kids, and it's 76 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: true that it is. We've got plenty of research that 77 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: shows that in the instance that somebody receives praise, whether 78 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: a child or an adult, it feels nice, but only 79 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: in the instant. And there's even some research that calls 80 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: that into question. So there's some research that says that 81 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: if you raise a child and say oh, good job 82 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: or great sharing or super running or nice tidying, or 83 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: any of those kinds of throw away praisy kind of lines, 84 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: sometimes not always, it depends on how you do it 85 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: in the context, but quite often children will infer low ability. 86 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: That is, if you're praising me for doing it, you 87 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: must think I'm not good at it. 88 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: Well, I was, as you were talking, I was thinking 89 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: about the times where I have done things and I 90 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: haven't been proud of it. I don't feel like it's 91 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: a great job, right, and yet somebody will tell me 92 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: that it is. And my instant thought process is, you're 93 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: just saying that because you love me, or you're just 94 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: saying that because you have to. 95 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: When I was a teenager, I jumped on the bus, 96 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: paid my fare to go to the beach. The bus 97 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: driver gave me my change, and as I walked to 98 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: my seat, put my surfboard into the bus and sit 99 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: down beside it, I realized that the bus driver had 100 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: given me too much change. For some reason. I walked 101 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: back to him and said, you gave me twenty cents 102 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: too much change. Praised me for He said, good, good boy, 103 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: you're such an honous boy. I was like fourteen or 104 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: thirteen or something like that, and I remember as he 105 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: said it, I cringed inside because as soon as he 106 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: said it, I thought of all the times that I 107 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: haven't been honest, and I thought, oh, buddy, you don't 108 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: know the behalf of it. I don't actually know why 109 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: I gave you the twenty cents back because I am 110 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: not an honest boy. And him saying that made me 111 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: hyper aware that I did not deserve that praise. But 112 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: we do it because we want to motivate a certain 113 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: kind of behavior. Other research suggests that we praise our 114 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: kids because we want to boost their self esteem. You 115 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: know how I respond to that. When you teach your 116 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: children to look to external sources for validation of their 117 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: value and their worth, you do not boost their self esteem. 118 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: No. 119 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: What also has been shown in research is that while 120 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: you might get a subsequent boost in happiness, motivation, satisfaction 121 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: with life when you get praise. If you get praised 122 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: for let's say, getting an A plus on an exam, Ah, 123 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: great job, you're so smart. I think that you might 124 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,119 Speaker 1: be gifted. Child Like, you say that to the kiddo 125 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: and then they do the next exam and they don't 126 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: get the A plus, they get a B minus. What 127 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: does that say about whether they really are gifted or not? 128 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: They've lost their gear completely. It means that they're not 129 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: nearly as smart. But what does it also say about 130 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: your judgment? Now they're going to question your judgment. Oh, 131 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: my parents are just saying it because they have to. 132 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: My parents' judgment is flawed, just like my intelligence is flawed. 133 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: And so it's not so much of what happens in 134 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: the immediate moment, it's the aftermath, when there is a 135 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: subsequent setback that is challenging. Got a couple of other 136 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: reasons that people praise their kids. They will often do 137 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: it as an incentive, like they're doing it to really, 138 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: I guess, push them along. 139 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: I've heard many times, especially in the classroom, praise the good, 140 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: ignore the bad for kids that are really really struggling. 141 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: And so you've got this kid who you know, ninety 142 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: percent of the time is quite disruptive in class, but 143 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 2: the three or four times in a day where they're 144 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: sitting quietly ham it up, Yes, and make a really 145 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: big deal about it. Yes, And yet you're suggesting that 146 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 2: even that's flawed as. 147 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: Well, deeply, deeply. In fact, a couple of my notes 148 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: here that I was thinking about, I wrote down, we 149 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: praise the kids that we think need it because it 150 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: will help them believe that they're good. This is that classic. 151 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was like this when you 152 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: were at school, and I'm hoping that most schools don't 153 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: do this anymore. But this is that thing where the 154 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: kid that is a really challenging kid in class is 155 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: good for three minutes, and the teacher says, oh, I'm 156 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: going to give you a gold star. I'm going to 157 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: give you a merit of ward for assembly on Friday, 158 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: and the kids are sitting there going the teachers only 159 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: doing this because that kid never gets one and they 160 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: needed to find an execute like. The kids can see it, 161 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: and even the one who gets it can. But I 162 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: think the number one reason that we praise our kids 163 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: is because it feels like it's right to say nice things. 164 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: I feel like that's what we're supposed to do. 165 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: So I know you're saying all of this, but this 166 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: is ingrained in society totally and so deeply, and I 167 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: think but most people would really struggle with the idea 168 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: that we are not supposed to praise our kids specifically. 169 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: Is there any science behind this, because this is. 170 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: Big Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to step through 171 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: maybe three or four research articles in thirty seconds or 172 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: less for each one. This is not a doctor's this 173 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: is not a doctor's desk episode, but it's really important. 174 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: So in the early nineteen nineties, one of my favorite 175 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: studies on praise was published. It was really smart. A 176 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: study by a guy called Wolfmeier, and what he found 177 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: is he called it the paradoxical effects of praise and 178 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: criticism on perceived ability. Essentially, what he found is once 179 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: kids get to about the age of five or six, 180 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: when we praise them and tell them how good they are. 181 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I want 182 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: to go into a bit about why they actually think 183 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: I mustn't be very good if you have to give 184 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: me praise around this. And the way it works is 185 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of like I'm going to infer low ability 186 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: to myself if you're telling me I'm great, like or if. 187 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 2: I'm great doing this and I know that I've only 188 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 2: done a mediocre job, then I actually don't need to 189 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: try any harder to get the same. 190 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: It can do that as well. Yeah, yeah, but I 191 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: would imagine it's kind of like sitting at the dinner 192 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: table and your parents are saying, Oh, this broccoli, Oh, 193 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: my goodness, I've never had broccoli like this. Kid, You've 194 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: got to try this broccoli. It is amazing. Oh I'm 195 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: putting it in my mouth now. Oh the broccoli is so good. 196 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: And as a child, you're looking here, parent going if 197 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: you're trying to sell it that hard broccoli must be 198 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: the most disgusting thing on the face of the earth. 199 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm never going to eat broccoli. So there's a paradoxical 200 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: effect that is, the more we pump it up, the 201 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: more the kids are like, yeah right now. There's a 202 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen study that was done by a guy called 203 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: Eddie Bremmelman and his colleagues, and this is a really 204 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: interesting one as well. That's not beautiful, that's incredibly beautiful. 205 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: The adverse impact of inflated praise on children with low 206 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: self esteem. So what they've basically said is, with kids 207 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: who have low self esteem, based on you know, from 208 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: Meyer's study, the last thing we want to do is 209 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: give praise to kids with low self esteem, because the 210 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: paradoxical effect is that they are going to think they're 211 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: even worse. Right. But what we do instead, according to 212 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: broum Woman, is we give inflated praise to those with 213 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: the lowest self esteem. So if I feel lousy about 214 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: myself and I've got a parent saying oh, that is 215 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: such a brilliant job, Oh you are you are amazing, 216 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: You did such a good job on that, as the 217 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: kid with low self esteem I'm going, Wow, I must 218 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: really suck because they are trying so hard to make 219 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: me feel good about this, which means that their perception 220 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: of me is that I'm terrible at it. And what 221 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: the research has found was that inflated praise decreases challenge 222 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: seeking in children with low self esteem, and it has 223 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: the opposite effect on kids with high self esteem. But 224 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: you don't worry about praising the kids with high self esteem, 225 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: right because they already feel awesome about life and they're 226 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: going to do whatever they do anyway. So that was 227 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: a really fascinating one. And while I could run through 228 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: a whole lot of others, I'm just going to mention 229 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: one more because it really is the the praise research synthesis. 230 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: This is the one that pulls it all together. It's 231 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: actually about twenty years old now, but it's just so 232 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: so good. It's called the Effects of Praise on Children's 233 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: Intrinsic Motivation, a review and synthesis by a lady called 234 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: Jennifer Handelong now a handle on Corpus and Mark Lepper 235 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: from Stanford, And what they've effectively found is that the 236 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: more we praise kids, the more we reduce their intrinsic 237 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: motivation and the less likely it is that they're going 238 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: to be creative or curious or motivated, And all we're 239 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 1: really doing is promoting comparison and competition. We've got to 240 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: stop praising our kids. 241 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: This reminds me of some of the conversations we've had 242 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: with Alfie Kohane on the podcast. He talks a lot 243 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: about intrinsic motivation and how praise and rewards specifically can 244 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: lessen that in our kids. 245 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: So I shared all this with these parents, and their 246 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: heads were spinning their life. What are we supposed to say? 247 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you say? How do we support our 248 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 2: kids and you know, kind of let them know that 249 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: we recognize the effort? 250 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah? 251 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: How do we do that without saying you're a great kid? 252 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: And the Carrol Dweck research on mindset is all about 253 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: praising the out praising the effort, not the outcome. But 254 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: I think that these studies and several others are strong 255 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: enough to call that profoundly into question. I don't think 256 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: that Carol Dweck has that right. I don't think praise 257 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: is necessary at all. What were you told to do 258 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: when a kid came to you in an early childcare 259 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: setting and they did something great. Maybe it was a 260 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: painting that it was drawing, maybe it was helping somebody, 261 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: but they were really they were looking for some feedback, 262 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: they were looking for some affirmation, or they just wanted 263 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: to show you the cool thing that they'd done. 264 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: Ask questions, lots of questions, like what, so, how do 265 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: you feel about what you did? 266 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: Look at my painting? Do you like it? Well? How 267 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: do you feel about it? 268 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: Or acknowledge what we see so specifically, So if it's 269 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: a painting, for instance, it'd be like, Wow, you've used 270 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: lots of blue in this painting and then you've got 271 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 2: this tiny pop of red. You know, how do you 272 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 2: feel about? How do you feel about what you've done? 273 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: It feels a lot more effortful than good job, totally 274 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: great painting, and it. 275 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: Doesn't come naturally. No, Like when they first were teaching 276 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: me how to do it, it felt so robotic and 277 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: rope because I was kind of following a screech. 278 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, Yeah, you've got it needed to happen. 279 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said it. You have to practice, 280 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: you have to practice, and even hearing you say it 281 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: then it was kind of like, oh that there's a 282 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: bit of cringe to that. I've worked on this for 283 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: twenty plus years with our kids. I mean, I've been 284 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: thinking about it deeply for twenty plus years. And I 285 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: don't know if you've noticed what I say when the 286 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: kids come into the kitchen and they say, Dad, Dad, 287 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: I got an A minus or I got an A plus, 288 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: or I thought I was going to fail but I 289 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: ended up with a B plus. I mean, they don't 290 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: even have to have kicked it out of the park. 291 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: They're just really really happy with the result that they got. 292 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: Have you noticed what I say to them? 293 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: You say, how do you feel about that? 294 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? Normally I won't ask the question straight away, though. 295 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: Normally I'll reflect what I'm seeing. I'll say what I see. 296 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: So when they're bouncing off, I'm really happy about that, yeah, 297 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: And I'll say, oh, you seem so stoked, and I'll 298 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: give them a great and I say, look at the 299 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: smile on your face. That must have felt so good 300 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: when you got that result. And so what I'm describing 301 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: to them is what i'm seeing on their face, what 302 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: I'm seeing in their behavior as a result of the 303 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: grade or the fact that they won the race, or 304 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: they got to result somewhere, they got the play and 305 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: the part in the play. And the cool thing about 306 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: that is it works when they're disappointed as well. They 307 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: come into the kitchen, they're devastated because they failed. They've 308 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: got to see or whatever, and I'll say, Wow, it 309 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: looks like that one really hurt. Or it sounds like 310 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: you expected to get a better result and this hasn't 311 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: worked out for you. And what that does is it 312 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: takes away all of the evaluation. It takes away all 313 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: of that. My parents are trying to manipulate me into 314 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: eating the broccoli. My parents are trying to prove to 315 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: me that I'm smart, because the thing we want to 316 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: do is we want to get reassurance. Right want to 317 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: say to the kids, Oh, but you're a smart kid. 318 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: It must have just been one of those days. What happened? 319 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: Why we kind of give them the feedback That doesn't work. 320 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: So I would say, the best thing you can do 321 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: is just point out here's what I'm seeing. You seem 322 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: so excited. Wow, that looks like that really hurt. And 323 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: then once they've given their own feedback to you about 324 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: how they feel about it, whether it was great, or not. 325 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: Then you can say, well, you know what, I just 326 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: love you like crazy, give me a hug, congratulations on 327 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: the grade. Or you might say, oh, well that must 328 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: have hurt. Come and give me a hug. Let's talk 329 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: about what we can do next time so that this 330 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. I presume you don't want to get 331 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: more c's. I presume you don't want to miss out 332 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: on that thing that's important to you, and you start 333 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: to problem solve. In fact, even when they do well, 334 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: you start to problem solve. You got that a how 335 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: did you get it? What can we do to make 336 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: sure that you keep getting this? Because it feels pretty 337 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: done good, doesn't it. And so the conversation is qualitatively different. 338 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: It's not praise anymore. They've done their own praising, and 339 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: now you can just have a conversation about what you see, 340 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: how they feel, how they got there, and what might 341 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: happen next time to get results that are in line 342 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: with what they're looking for in life. 343 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: So, if this is the avenue that we're taking with 344 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: them children, how do we get them to adults who 345 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: actually don't need the evaluation of others, They don't need 346 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: the praise from other people. They don't need the recognition. 347 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: I actually think this is the process. See when I 348 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: say to my child, ah, I can see on your face, 349 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: this must have lit you up when you got that outcome. 350 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: What my child then does is they say, oh, yeah, 351 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: I am really pumped. I'm so happy. I did a 352 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: great job. In fact, I'll usually say to me, Dad, 353 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: I worked so hard, I studied, I ran, I practiced, 354 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: I did this blah blah blah. I did all this 355 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: stuff and I got the outcome. And then I get 356 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: to say, well, what does that tell us? What does 357 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: that teach you? So what are we going to do 358 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: next time to make sure that we get the same thing? 359 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: And they're doing or they're actually hearing their in a voice, 360 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: and they're looking inwards for their evaluations of their outcomes, 361 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: their evaluation of their worth as a person, rather than 362 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: looking to me. What I'm doing insteads I'm supporting them 363 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: as they look inside. And the cool thing then is 364 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: once they've done that, I can give them that hard 365 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: and say, you know what, so proud of you. I'm 366 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: not proud of you because of the result. I'm proud 367 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: of you because of the way you're thinking about this, 368 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: and so this is a they've already done their praising. 369 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: I can say anything after that doesn't really matter. But 370 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: the critical thing here is they're learning to listen to 371 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: their voice, and as they do that, they become more 372 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: confident in themselves, which means they are less likely look 373 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: outward for evaluation. 374 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: What I love about this process is you talk about 375 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: that in a voice, you're actually helping them to express 376 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: that in a voice, yeah, and helping them to recognize 377 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: that it's their voice, not yours. 378 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: We really hope that this has been an informative and 379 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: maybe mindset changing conversation about the perils of praise and 380 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: what we can do instead. Thanks so much for joining 381 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: us on the Happy Families podcast. It's produced by Justin 382 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. 383 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: For more information about making your family happier, you can 384 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: find an entire chapter about this topic in my book 385 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: Nine Ways to a Resilient Child. It's online or in 386 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: bookstores wherever you grab your books. And for more about 387 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: making your family happier, check us out at happy families 388 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: dot com dot au or on Facebook at doctor Justin 389 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: Colson's Happy Families