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Speaker 1: While not rated explicit, the contents of this podcast episode

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Speaker 1: do contain themes that will not be suitable for younger listeners.

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Speaker 1: Parental discretion is advised. The contents of this podcast episode

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Speaker 1: may be inappropriate for young listeners.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, vulnerable children and adolescents are being actively encouraged to

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Speaker 1: take their own lives by sexual extortionists, with tragic cases

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Speaker 1: here in Australia and the US and a range of

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Speaker 1: other countries where we're seeing young people being hurt and

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Speaker 1: worse as a result of what happens online. And at

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Speaker 1: the moment, Julie Inman Grant, Australia's e Safety Commissioner, along

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Speaker 1: with a lot of other online safety experts and child

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Speaker 1: abuse investigators, are really cracking down hard, slamming social media

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Speaker 1: giants for not doing the basics to protect users from

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Speaker 1: I don't know how else to say it. Just no,

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Speaker 1: I can't say the words I was going to say

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Speaker 1: that would be inappropriate for this podcast. Just unscrupulous, ruthless

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Speaker 1: scammers who are trapping children into sending intimate images and

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Speaker 1: then threatening to expose them to family and friends. There

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Speaker 1: are hundreds, if not more, reports being made to federal

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Speaker 1: police every month of children who have shared intimate images

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Speaker 1: to overseas based scammers who are then using hacked and

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Speaker 1: fraudulent social media accounts to extort money and more from

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Speaker 1: the people who have been scammed. We often speak with

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Speaker 1: the Australian Senate Account of Child Exploitation or ACE on

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Speaker 1: the podcast about these scams and what parents can do.

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Speaker 1: They're known as honey traps. Today, I'm very very grateful

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Speaker 1: to be joined by somebody who has unfortunately been a

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Speaker 1: victim of one of these honey traps, one of these

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Speaker 1: sextortion attempts. I'm joined by Hailey, mum to five kids,

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Speaker 1: and Jake, a sixteen year old, both from Townsville, who

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Speaker 1: have unfortunately fallen victim to one of these scams. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me on the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: Haley and Jake. Now we've changed your names for privacy,

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Speaker 1: and we've also changed the name of the place that

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Speaker 1: you're from, just so that you can have some anonymity

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Speaker 1: here and talk freely. Can I start with you, Jake,

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Speaker 1: You're sixteen years old. You were fifteen when this happened?

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Speaker 1: Can you describe where you were, what you were doing,

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Speaker 1: and essentially what happened to end up in this online honeytrap.

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Speaker 4: They had just come home from school and I got

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Speaker 4: in a conversation with someone I thought was another girl,

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Speaker 4: and that night it turned into something more graphic.

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Speaker 1: So just before we get into that night, you've come

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Speaker 1: home from school and you got into a conversation with

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Speaker 1: this girl, did you think that you knew her? Did

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Speaker 1: she just slide into your DMS and say hi? Like,

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Speaker 1: what was the initial beginning of the conversation? Where did

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Speaker 1: it come from?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just split into DM and just started talking.

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Speaker 1: And so what did she say?

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Speaker 5: Went from that at high.

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Speaker 3: And eventually start asking a lot about snapchat and.

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Speaker 5: I went along with it?

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Speaker 1: What made you go along with it? She was obviously

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Speaker 1: somebody that you you didn't know at this point, but

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Speaker 1: what she was good looking and she's conversational, and you're

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Speaker 1: a sixteen year old, fifty year old boy.

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Speaker 3: Right that thought from the picture say further into more

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Speaker 3: graphic pictures and messages.

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Speaker 1: So when you say that she sent you more graphic

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Speaker 1: pictures and messages, you suggesting that she became explicit She

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Speaker 1: was sending nude photos or something like that to you. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: So as a fifteen year old boy, you're getting these

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Speaker 1: messages and what are you thinking? Are you thinking all

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Speaker 1: my Christmases have come at once? Or this is dodgy?

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Speaker 1: Or I can't wait to tell the guys at school

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Speaker 1: what happened last night? Like what's going on for you

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Speaker 1: in your head while this is happening.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot of mixed of emotions and different feelings,

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Speaker 3: but I thought I'll just go with it then turn

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Speaker 3: into something much worse and eventually finding out, oh, it

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Speaker 3: wasn't actually a girl, it was completely different.

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Speaker 1: Something happens during the evening as you're messaging this person

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Speaker 1: and she and I'm using she in inverted commerce because

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Speaker 1: it obviously wasn't who you thought it was. Is sending

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Speaker 1: you these images? Did she ask you for images of yourself?

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Speaker 5: Yes? You did, And I did go along with it.

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Speaker 1: Because that's what you do. And I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to soften this conversation for you to

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Speaker 1: make this any easier. I know it's a hard conversation

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Speaker 1: to have, but when I talk to a lot of

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Speaker 1: adults about what their kids are doing, the adults will

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Speaker 1: often say, I don't know why the kids would go

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Speaker 1: along with this, like, why would they go with it?

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Speaker 1: To use your words, Surely they'd say stop, Surely they'd

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Speaker 1: say this is crazy. But you did exactly what so

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Speaker 1: many kids do, and you just went with it. Is

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Speaker 1: there part of you that's just thinking maybe this is real?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, sometimes.

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Speaker 3: You know that it's real, but then sometimes wondering, oh

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Speaker 3: is it real or is it not?

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Speaker 5: And in that situation it was not.

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Speaker 1: Did you end up sending images, Jake, Yes, once you

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Speaker 1: sent the images?

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Speaker 5: What happened about five minutes?

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Speaker 3: It was at that point I felt something that was

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Speaker 3: at on And about the next minute after I thought

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Speaker 3: that this person has said to ruin your life and

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Speaker 3: I'm going to send these photos to everyone, and they

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Speaker 3: were throwning to the family, friends, to everyone, don't know.

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Speaker 1: Even your godmother. Describe the feeling that you had when

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Speaker 1: you realized what you just famed victim.

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Speaker 5: To terrified, definitely terrified, No clue, what never happened to me?

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Speaker 1: They've threatened to ruin your life? Were there any demands made?

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Speaker 5: There wasn't. They just said we were ruined your life.

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Speaker 1: So this isn't even about money At this point, this

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Speaker 1: is just we've got the images, you're gone. What did

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Speaker 1: you do once this terror hit you?

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Speaker 5: Straight away? From my mom and a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 5: Didn't know if I wanted to what had happened.

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Speaker 3: Because I was like, get in trouble, yelled at which

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Speaker 3: no one like, but I knew.

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Speaker 5: Because if I didn't, it would have gone terri.

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Speaker 1: So when did you say, Jake, you've stepped into mum

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Speaker 1: Hayley's room or living room or the kitchen. Where was

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Speaker 1: she and what did you say?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: She was out helping one of my siblings with their homework.

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Speaker 5: I came out.

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Speaker 3: She saw the looking face that something bad had happened,

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Speaker 3: and she she didn't know what and it Eventually I

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Speaker 3: asked her to come into her room and told my

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Speaker 3: mom wanted and she was on it, but she helped

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Speaker 3: be helped with blocking this person whoever they were in,

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Speaker 3: deleting Snapchat, the leading Instagram, deleting all these vicial network

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Speaker 3: and eventually had no other choice the police, and we

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Speaker 3: called them and once they picked up, we explained exactly

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Speaker 3: what happened, and we asked for help.

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Speaker 5: And received nothing. We're not told, oh.

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Speaker 3: Just delete the account, just go on with your life,

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Speaker 3: and they just.

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Speaker 5: Hung up there.

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Speaker 2: Nothing they did, so it was up me and my

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Speaker 2: mom who stop all of them.

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Speaker 1: Hayley, I want to come to you now. Jake steps

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Speaker 1: into the room and says, I need to talk. You

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Speaker 1: obviously can tell from his face that things are not

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Speaker 1: good right now. When he explains to you what has happened?

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Speaker 6: How do you react the panic? His face, he was

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Speaker 6: as white as I've never seen anything like it. I've

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Speaker 6: been a nurse for a long time and his face

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Speaker 6: I've never.

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Speaker 5: Seen anything just terrified.

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Speaker 6: Oh the panic in his voice. Instinct just told me

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Speaker 6: not to go hardcore parent on him and bring the

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Speaker 6: hammer down, but just sort of go into riceless management,

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Speaker 6: I think, and just help him get through it.

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Speaker 1: Once you began to address things with Jake, was there

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Speaker 1: any sense of safety, any sense of completion, any sense

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Speaker 1: that okay, we can get through this, or was it

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Speaker 1: literally just anything could happen now? We don't even know

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Speaker 1: what's next.

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Speaker 6: It was sort of all making it up as we

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Speaker 6: went along. We just didn't have any idea of how

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Speaker 6: to manage it or what to do. I think I

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Speaker 6: used the mentality that we wouldn't have this issue and

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Speaker 6: we wouldn't ever have this issue.

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Speaker 1: Had you guys had conversations previously about online safety and

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Speaker 1: making sure that you're not having interactions with people that

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Speaker 1: you don't know. Is this something that you've discussed in

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Speaker 1: your family and your home.

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Speaker 6: To a degree, but obviously not well enough.

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Speaker 1: Well you say that, But when I think about when

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Speaker 1: we did Parental Guidance Season two, and we did a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of stuff around online safety, we saw parents

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Speaker 1: who had been really diligent in having good conversations with

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Speaker 1: their children about this, and their children still accepted invitations

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Speaker 1: from strangers to engage in ways that we're not safe

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Speaker 1: and we're not healthy. So what we see is this

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Speaker 1: sort of disconnect between parents who are saying, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: are actually talking about this stuff and what kids ultimately

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Speaker 1: choose to do. A couple of other questions as we

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Speaker 1: sort of moved to a completion of the conversation here, Hayley,

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Speaker 1: was there any ramification. Did those people who had taken

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Speaker 1: images of Jake ever send them to anybody?

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Speaker 6: As far as we know, no, they didn't off our

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Speaker 6: own back, not with the advice of anybody. Just thinking

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Speaker 6: how can we minimize the risk of this person being

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Speaker 6: able to contact any of Jake's contacts. We just deleted

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Speaker 6: or we blocked this person on all the socials and

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Speaker 6: then started deleting as many of his contacts as possible,

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Speaker 6: and then deleting the accounts themselves.

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Speaker 1: In a conversation recently with the Australian Center to Counter

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Speaker 1: Child Exploitation or ACE, they talked about something where if

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Speaker 1: images are taken but they're not used in a bribery

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Speaker 1: or blackmail situation, they may be taken and used for

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Speaker 1: other nefarious purposes. Presumably you've reported this to the police

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Speaker 1: and now it's just a case of waiting and hoping

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Speaker 1: that nothing more comes of it. Would that be fair

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Speaker 1: to say, like, where does this leave you now?

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Speaker 6: Initially we rang police Link for advice as to what

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Speaker 6: to do and how to manage the situation, and it

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Speaker 6: seems like the person that I spoke to didn't really

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Speaker 6: offer any advice. So you don't know what's gone together,

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Speaker 6: and we didn't know who to report.

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Speaker 5: It to, so it stopped there.

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Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, fortunately in your case, that's that's where it

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Speaker 1: has stopped. But still that idea the terror I think

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Speaker 1: about what Jake said, I'm going to ruin your life,

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Speaker 1: just the feeling that that must have created at this point, Jake,

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Speaker 1: are you back on social media? Have you created new accounts?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 3: Never, never since that moment, never surged, en up or anything.

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Speaker 5: Nothing.

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Speaker 1: As a family who's been through this, what advice would

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Speaker 1: you give to others who are listening to this conversation

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Speaker 1: and are understandably concerned that this sort of stuff could

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Speaker 1: happen to anyone.

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Speaker 6: The biggest piece of advice I could get is, and

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Speaker 6: it's something that I've taken from you, doctor Justin from

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Speaker 6: early on, is to reassure your children that you love

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Speaker 6: them and support them no matter what. And that's the

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Speaker 6: biggest thing that I've always reinforced my family is that

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Speaker 6: nothing that you can do, or say or will stop

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Speaker 6: me from loving you no matter what.

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Speaker 1: Jake, have you felt that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Definitely.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know what would happen after it, so I

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Speaker 3: was very very skinned in that moment the next day,

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Speaker 3: but Mum reassured me and totally that everything will be

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Speaker 3: all right. Hopefully nothing could happen the next day, and

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Speaker 3: she kept calm, That's what she could.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything that you would add before we wrap

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Speaker 1: things up?

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Speaker 6: Just keeping those of communication open and keep an eye

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Speaker 6: on your kids and devices. Well, I had a deal

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Speaker 6: with the kids that I would have open access to

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Speaker 6: their devices and look at their contacts, you know, what

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Speaker 6: they were looking at and who they were speaking to,

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Speaker 6: But I never really followed through on that.

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Speaker 5: I wish I had.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: The fact Haley, that Jake came to you and was

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Speaker 1: open about things straight away is a credit to you

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Speaker 1: as a mum. He obviously knew that he was safe,

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Speaker 1: and he knew that he'd had that unconditional regard from you.

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Speaker 1: I think that's wonderful. Well, guys, I appreciate you sharing

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Speaker 1: your stories so very much. Thank you for taking time

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Speaker 1: out of your day and for being open and vulnerable

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Speaker 1: about something that's tricky to talk about, especially in such

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Speaker 1: a public way.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: That's Jake and Hailey from Townsville. Jake fifteen years old

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Speaker 1: when he was approached by an online scammer. Fortunately no

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Speaker 1: negative ramifications in terms of being exploited for money or

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Speaker 1: having images shared, but certainly threatening, certainly terrifying, and certainly

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Speaker 1: anything but what we want to see happening for our children.

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Speaker 1: I know that many of you who are listening are

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Speaker 1: going to be saying, so what do I do? What

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Speaker 1: do I do? Tomorrow on the Happy Families Podcast, I'm

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Speaker 1: speaking with the E Safety Commissioner, the Federal E Safety Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: Julie Inman Grant will join me and talk about what

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Speaker 1: families can do when this kind of thing happens. Hopefully

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Speaker 1: we can protect our children from it. If it does happen, though,

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Speaker 1: Julie will discuss with us what we can do to

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Speaker 1: keep our kids safe and to make sure that there

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Speaker 1: is no further an ongoing damage cause by people who

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Speaker 1: have such which evil and impure intent. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what else to call it. It's just devastating. So please

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Speaker 1: join us on the Happy Families Podcast tomorrow to hear

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Speaker 1: part two of this very very important conversation about keeping

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Speaker 1: kids safe online. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive

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Speaker 1: producer and for more information about making your family happier,

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Speaker 1: we would love for you to visit us at Happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com au check out the Quest. It's our

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Speaker 1: brand new interactive membership that takes you on a journey,

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Speaker 1: a journey to help your family to flourish and make

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Speaker 1: your family happier. The quest. We guide you, We hold

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Speaker 1: your hand, and we take you one step at a

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Speaker 1: time from where you are now to that levels of

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Speaker 1: happiness that you want in your family. All the details

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Speaker 1: are at happy families dot com dot you talk to

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Speaker 1: you tomorrow with Julie Immigrant