1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,599
Speaker 1: Hopefully we've got her on the line now, some tech

2
00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: issues in the studio. The member for Johnson and Justine Davis.

3
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,080
Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Hey, Katie, how are you going?

4
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,840
Speaker 1: Really good? Sorry about the tech issues now, Justine. We

5
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,640
Speaker 1: have obviously been speaking extensively this week about the situation

6
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,920
Speaker 1: that's unfolded last week with the IKAC delegate Patricia Kelly

7
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,640
Speaker 1: finding Michael Murphy committed unsatisfactory conduct. We know he then

8
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: outed himself late on Thursday, which we spoke quite extensively

9
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: about on the week that was. But then the events

10
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 1: that have followed have seen the Chief Minister make the decision,

11
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 1: of course, to begin the process to terminate Michael Murphy's contract. Justine,

12
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,840
Speaker 1: do you believe she's made the right decision here?

13
00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's clear that it was untenable

14
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 2: for him to continue in that position, and so I

15
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,280
Speaker 2: mean he's come out and revealed himself as the person

16
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 2: the Chief Minister has taken made a response to that.

17
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,319
Speaker 2: I think that as you've started to talk about there

18
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,960
Speaker 2: there's an ongoing issues from this, and I think what

19
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,120
Speaker 2: I'm hearing from the community is that there's still a

20
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,480
Speaker 2: lot of doubt, a lot of questions about what's going

21
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 2: on in the place force. More broadly, what's going on

22
00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,679
Speaker 2: in terms of our response, what the government's response is

23
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,720
Speaker 2: when these things happen and people are feeling like it's

24
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 2: not good enough, too little, too late, and there's a

25
00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,039
Speaker 2: lot of sense of uncertainty in the institutions that should

26
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 2: be there to look after us and the institutions that

27
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:37,319
Speaker 2: we need to trust.

28
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,479
Speaker 1: Justin we know that Martin Dole APM is now the

29
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,479
Speaker 1: acting Police Commissioner. Some are questioning this after the Chief

30
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 1: Minister confirmed on the show that he was on the

31
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: same selection panel as Michael Murphy. Now there is no

32
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 1: suggestion that he's done anything wrong here, but the acting

33
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 1: Commissioner then of course confirmed that he was at a

34
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: press conference on Monday. I mean, what do you make

35
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 1: of that situation?

36
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think, as you said, I mean, I don't

37
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 2: want to get into the details of people, whether whether

38
00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 2: or not people are in the appropriate jobs, etc. And

39
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,280
Speaker 2: the details of that. But I think the question here

40
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: is that this sends a message to people and people

41
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,959
Speaker 2: are feeling a lack of a lack of trust and

42
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 2: lack of accountability. What else People are coming up to

43
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,399
Speaker 2: me and saying what else is there to find out

44
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,919
Speaker 2: in this story? And you know, particular, I want to say,

45
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,240
Speaker 2: particularly for police on the ground. I've been meeting with

46
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,360
Speaker 2: our local police frend things that are happening in our community.

47
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 2: We all know they do such a tough job every

48
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,480
Speaker 2: day and they deserve to have trust in their leadership,

49
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,800
Speaker 2: as does the whole community. And in addition to that,

50
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 2: they need to know that when things go wrong, they're

51
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,360
Speaker 2: going to be addressed appropriately. And I think in this situation,

52
00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 2: I CACT did exactly what they were set up to do,

53
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,800
Speaker 2: and in fact, if they hadn't done their job, probably

54
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,280
Speaker 2: we would have never known this. And what they're job

55
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,920
Speaker 2: is is to do an investigation, make a report and

56
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,919
Speaker 2: then give that report to a responsible entity, in this

57
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 2: case the Minister for IKAK and the Minister of the Police,

58
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,880
Speaker 2: the Chief Minister, and they it's then their job to

59
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,240
Speaker 2: take action to address it. And that's in my view.

60
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,959
Speaker 2: There's a lot of dumping on IKAQ in relation to

61
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 2: all of this, and there things definitely to look at

62
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 2: in IQQ, But in this situation, I think ika did

63
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 2: exactly what they were set up to do and if

64
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 2: that wasn't enough, then what we need to do is

65
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 2: look at strengthening IQAQ, not dumping on it.

66
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,119
Speaker 1: Do you think that there needs to be some changes

67
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 1: so when you look at, you know, the naming of

68
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,840
Speaker 1: public servants or high level public servants.

69
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 2: In terms of whether or not I CAAK can Yeah, yeah,

70
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 2: I mean I think, as I said, I think we

71
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 2: need to have a really good look at ikak. I'm

72
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,480
Speaker 2: as I've said on your show before, I'm a very

73
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 2: big fan of having a robust independent Commission against corruption.

74
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 2: I think it's really important. I think there are big

75
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,360
Speaker 2: challenges in having an institution like that in a small

76
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,200
Speaker 2: jurisdiction like we have here in the territory, and I

77
00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 2: think it's important that we look at what our best

78
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 2: model is going to be for happening here. That may

79
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 2: be naming public servance, which does happen in some jurisdictions,

80
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,120
Speaker 2: but there are lots of other things we can look

81
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 2: at too. And I think the issue for people here

82
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,720
Speaker 2: wasn't so much about the naming of someone. It was

83
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 2: about there's something that's gone wrong here in the our

84
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 2: kind of most important public institution, the police, and we

85
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,360
Speaker 2: don't know that anything's been done to fix it up.

86
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,560
Speaker 2: And so I think I don't want us to get

87
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 2: distracted by naming individuals. I think what we need to

88
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,000
Speaker 2: look at is the systems that are in place and

89
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 2: what we can do to ensure that they're doing their job,

90
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,160
Speaker 2: that the community can trust them, that there's transparency and

91
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,520
Speaker 2: accountability within our whole system.

92
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,240
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting discussion because I feel like when

93
00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,880
Speaker 1: the IKAC kicked off, people had so much trust and

94
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 1: faith in the KAC, and a lot of that's been

95
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,640
Speaker 1: lost the years, rightly or wrongly. And now, of course

96
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 1: we've got the Chief Minister revealing the ika's cost the

97
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,080
Speaker 1: territory taxpayers thirty five million dollars since it started operating,

98
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,720
Speaker 1: and I do think that people are sort of starting

99
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 1: to question whether it is as effective as it should

100
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,400
Speaker 1: be in it and I think you're right. You know,

101
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,479
Speaker 1: in this situation, the IKACKS acted exactly as they should

102
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,560
Speaker 1: have in terms of this report, but there seems to

103
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 1: be an increasing lack of faith. I guess in the

104
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 1: IICAC is potentially the right words, rightly or wrongly, just

105
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 1: after watching how things have happened over the years since

106
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 1: it began operation, and some even going so far as

107
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: to suggest or we either need to be funding it properly,

108
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: or do we need to be outsourcing some of these

109
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,840
Speaker 1: issues to an IICAC maybe in another state where there

110
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 1: isn't any you know, any concerns over sort of conflicts

111
00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,920
Speaker 1: or not that I'm suggesting there is with the ICAC,

112
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,359
Speaker 1: but you know, where there isn't any concerns, do we

113
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,000
Speaker 1: need to you know, maybe outsourced to another state.

114
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, and my understanding is that IKAK often actually

115
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,840
Speaker 2: does outsource their investigation to other states, you know, because

116
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 2: of issues of conflict, because of our small jurisdiction. I'm

117
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,919
Speaker 2: not an expert in it, but that's what I understand

118
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 2: they do. And I think you're right. I mean, I

119
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,200
Speaker 2: don't think this can be a quick answer of this

120
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:25,680
Speaker 2: is what we need to do. You know, people aren't

121
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 2: happy with what's happened up to her now. You know,

122
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,919
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of that. ARCAK has been in

123
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,040
Speaker 2: the news a lot over the last couple of years

124
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 2: in particular, and we definitely need to look at it.

125
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,200
Speaker 2: But I don't think the answer is to do an

126
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 2: unthought through response saying Okay, we just need to get

127
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 2: rid of it. I think we need to look at

128
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 2: it properly, like I think we need to do about

129
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 2: everything we do in the territory. We need to look

130
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 2: at it properly. We need to look at the evidence.

131
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:50,800
Speaker 2: We need to look at what's going to work best

132
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 2: for the territory, and then we need to put that

133
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 2: in place.

134
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 1: Justin What would that look like? Do you think like

135
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,800
Speaker 1: a parliamentary review or how could you potentially look into

136
00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:01,679
Speaker 1: the and how we could do it better.

137
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's certainly one option. You know, we could do

138
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,599
Speaker 2: a parliamentary review, we could set up a slate committee.

139
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 2: There's lots of different options for it. I don't have

140
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,440
Speaker 2: a quick answer to that, but I think it's there's

141
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 2: definitely an appetite for looking at it. We know so,

142
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 2: and I think that we While I'm saying we can't

143
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 2: act hastily, I don't think that means we should delay actions.

144
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,440
Speaker 2: I think, you know, this is something that we do

145
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,880
Speaker 2: need to look at now because we need to, as

146
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 2: I said, no, that our public institutions we can trust

147
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 2: as a community, and if there's questions around that, we

148
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 2: need to look at what we need to do to

149
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 2: address those questions and bring trust back.

150
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 1: Parliament obviously resumes next week. Is this something that's going

151
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 1: to be high on the agenda for you.

152
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 2: It's a very busy two weeks of Parliament coming up.

153
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that are going to be

154
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,560
Speaker 2: competing for attention, but it's certainly something that I think

155
00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,200
Speaker 2: not only me, will be bringing to the floor next week.

156
00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: Justin can I just ask quickly, you know we were

157
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 1: talking about the whole situation and continue to of course

158
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 1: with the police. Do you think there needs to be

159
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 1: a review into the executive appointments that you know that

160
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: happened under Michael Murphy's tenure.

161
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen calls for that. I'm not sure. I mean,

162
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 2: I think you know, to be you know, perfectly honest,

163
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,560
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not an expert in what's going on

164
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 2: in the police and in HR and how those things happen.

165
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,320
Speaker 2: I think i'd probably give just the same answer that

166
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 2: we need to do whatever is going to give the

167
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 2: police force, the working police, confidence in their leadership and

168
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,079
Speaker 2: the community. And if that means having more transparence in

169
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,440
Speaker 2: accountability via some kind of review, then that's what we

170
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,679
Speaker 2: should do. Yeah, there are probably other options that we

171
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,920
Speaker 2: could we could look at. I think it's really important

172
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,560
Speaker 2: that we don't do anything that undermines the work that

173
00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 2: the police are doing right now, and that whatever we

174
00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 2: do is in a way that is continuing to support,

175
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,320
Speaker 2: you know, the important work that we've talked a lot

176
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 2: about on your program, a lot about domestic violence. Incredibly

177
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 2: important and under resource work that's happening in that place.

178
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,360
Speaker 2: We don't want, we don't want to be distracted from

179
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 2: that work on the ground by these things. But we

180
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,360
Speaker 2: need to make sure that the institution is operating properly well.

181
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 1: Justin Davis, the independent member for Johnson, I always appreciate

182
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,080
Speaker 1: your time. Thank you very much for joining us on

183
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 1: the show today.

184
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:31,839
Speaker 2: No worries, Katie, have a great day.

185
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 1: Ask you too. Thank you