WEBVTT - How Uluru got its name back

0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.240
<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily This is the Daily ar,

0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:04.359
<v Speaker 1>this is the Dahlias.

0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh now it makes sense.

0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.439
<v Speaker 1>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,

0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.400
<v Speaker 1>the twentieth of October. I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy FitzSimons.

0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.360
<v Speaker 1>This week marks forty years since a major milestone in

0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.080
<v Speaker 1>Aboriginal land rights history. In October nineteen eighty five, the

0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.760
<v Speaker 1>Federal government returned the title Deeds of Ularoo cart Tudor

0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.400
<v Speaker 1>National Park to the traditional custodians of the region, the

0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Unaknew people.

0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I know a place in the hands of the Ularu

0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.320
<v Speaker 2>cade Tutor Aboriginal Land Trust. The title deeds.

0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Four decades on. Celebrations began in London last week, where

0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.760
<v Speaker 1>King Charles met with First Nations leaders ahead of more

0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.720
<v Speaker 1>anniversary plans on country this week. Today, we are going

0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.240
<v Speaker 1>to take you through what led to the nineteen eighty

0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.600
<v Speaker 1>five handback, its significance and where thous Nations issues stand.

0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Four decades on.

0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:14.320
<v Speaker 2>M Ularu is an iconic landmark. It attracts thousands, maybe millions,

0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure, but thousands of visitors definitely every single

0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.280
<v Speaker 2>year to Australia to kind of set the scene here.

0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.200
<v Speaker 2>Do you want to tell us about the cultural significance

0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:25.240
<v Speaker 2>of Ularu?

0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:31.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely so. Ularu or Ularu Katujuda National Park is

0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.000
<v Speaker 1>this massive, massive site in Australia's Red Center. It covers

0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.400
<v Speaker 1>thirteen hundred square kilometers and within that park are two

0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.119
<v Speaker 1>geological rock formations, two very large rock formations, I should

0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.880
<v Speaker 1>say Ularu which is three hundred and forty eight meters

0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.160
<v Speaker 1>high and Katajudah which is a group of thirty six

0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.600
<v Speaker 1>domes with the highest formations rising to around five hundred meters.

0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:59.760
<v Speaker 1>So these really remarkable natural formations and these are sacred

0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.240
<v Speaker 1>site rights to the traditional owners, the Unknew people who

0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.480
<v Speaker 1>have lived in the area for more than thirty thousand years. Now,

0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.600
<v Speaker 1>two years after it was returned to the first peoples

0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.960
<v Speaker 1>of the area, the handback were discussing today. The park

0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.600
<v Speaker 1>was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in nineteen

0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.560
<v Speaker 1>eighty seven, and that's significant because it basically guarantees the

0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:25.600
<v Speaker 1>protection of this site as a significant natural and cultural area.

0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.400
<v Speaker 2>And what do we know about Ularu prior to it

0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.440
<v Speaker 2>being returned to the traditional owners.

0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.360
<v Speaker 1>So the land was taken over by the South Australian

0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.480
<v Speaker 1>government in eighteen seventy three, and in nineteen fifty eight

0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.960
<v Speaker 1>the area was declared a National park by the Commonwealth,

0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.000
<v Speaker 1>and that was a declaration that happened without consultation with

0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.160
<v Speaker 1>the traditional owners Ularu. The rock, though, was called Ularu

0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.040
<v Speaker 1>long before colonization, but in eighteen seventy three an explorer

0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.519
<v Speaker 1>by the name of William Goss renamed it Airs Rock.

0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.320
<v Speaker 1>That was after the former South Australian Premier so Henrys,

0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:02.959
<v Speaker 1>and for the better part of a century, Airs Rock

0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.600
<v Speaker 1>was the most widely used name for this sacred site.

0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure a lot of people have heard it referred

0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.040
<v Speaker 1>to as Rock, but in nineteen ninety three it was

0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:15.520
<v Speaker 1>officially renamed airs Rock slash Ularoo. It was the first

0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:19.080
<v Speaker 1>NT landmark to actually be given dual names. Little interesting

0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.480
<v Speaker 1>bit of trivia there. And then in two thousand and

0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.400
<v Speaker 1>two these names were reversed and the rock took on

0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.920
<v Speaker 1>the official name of Oolaroo slash airs Rock, which it

0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.480
<v Speaker 1>still has today, but more and more over recent years,

0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.040
<v Speaker 1>as Rock really feels like a name that has been

0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.240
<v Speaker 1>a lot more phased out. Ularoo is I'd say that

0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.400
<v Speaker 1>the most prominent name that we call it these days,

0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.400
<v Speaker 1>and if you ever visit the area. All the traditional

0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.760
<v Speaker 1>owners of course, will call it Boolaro as well.

0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.600
<v Speaker 2>So its name was returned to Ularu after it went

0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.800
<v Speaker 2>through this handback process. I want to go back to

0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.680
<v Speaker 2>the handback process because that's what the anniversary this week is,

0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.200
<v Speaker 2>do you I want to tell us more about what

0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.680
<v Speaker 2>led to that handback.

0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So this was a culmination of years and years

0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.080
<v Speaker 1>of advocacy by traditional owners who were fighting to regain

0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.600
<v Speaker 1>ownership of this sacred area, their sacred lands. So it

0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.360
<v Speaker 1>was a long campaign, but a key moment came in

0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.840
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy nine. That's when the Unknew people presented a

0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.880
<v Speaker 1>claim to the Aboriginal Land Rights Commission. Then we had

0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:28.039
<v Speaker 1>six years of extensive hearings, investigations, and eventually a High

0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Court judge, a justice by the name of Leslie Touhey,

0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.640
<v Speaker 1>ruled in favor of the traditional owners and recommended the

0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.640
<v Speaker 1>land be returned to them. That recommendation was accepted by

0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:43.479
<v Speaker 1>the federal government and after negotiations, a formal handback ceremony

0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.119
<v Speaker 1>happened on the twenty sixth of October nineteen eighty five,

0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.559
<v Speaker 1>and that was when the Governor General at the time

0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.599
<v Speaker 1>returned the title deeds for Ularu Cutajutor to the traditional

0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:55.160
<v Speaker 1>custodians of the area.

0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.640
<v Speaker 2>So by no means it was an easy process. The

0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.080
<v Speaker 2>government did try to fight the traditional owners through this.

0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.120
<v Speaker 1>There was I suppose controversy around the process. Nineteen eighty

0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.360
<v Speaker 1>five might not sound so long ago, but in terms

0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:11.120
<v Speaker 1>of the discussion about Aboriginal rights, it was certainly divisive

0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.159
<v Speaker 1>in some parts of the country for a time.

0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:15.320
<v Speaker 2>And the site, now, like I said before, it's such

0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.760
<v Speaker 2>a popular tourist destination for so many people, you know,

0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Australians as well as people coming from overseas. How does

0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.160
<v Speaker 2>that work the tourism side of it.

0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.479
<v Speaker 1>Yes, So this is a really interesting part of the story.

0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.640
<v Speaker 1>So during the same ceremony where ownership was returned to

0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:38.279
<v Speaker 1>the traditional owners, they actually signed a joint management agreement

0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.800
<v Speaker 1>to lease the park back to the Australian National Parks

0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.960
<v Speaker 1>and Wildlife Service. So the traditional owners agreed with this

0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.960
<v Speaker 1>government agency that they would work in partnership together to

0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.280
<v Speaker 1>care for and manage the park. And that includes, you know,

0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.880
<v Speaker 1>managing the tourism trade in the area and maintaining culturally

0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.960
<v Speaker 1>sensitive practices for people who do visit that sacred site.

0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.039
<v Speaker 2>And what does that agreement look like now in I

0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:05.320
<v Speaker 2>guess practical.

0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Terms, yes. So obviously there is this symbolic significance when

0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.520
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about the title deeds being returned to the

0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.280
<v Speaker 1>First Nations people of the area. But this also really

0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.640
<v Speaker 1>gave the unnew people legal ownership and a genuine say

0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.360
<v Speaker 1>in how their sacred lands are managed. So, for example,

0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.400
<v Speaker 1>under this joint management model, the traditional custodians have input

0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.360
<v Speaker 1>into all major decisions about the park. They're employed as rangers,

0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.159
<v Speaker 1>they conduct cultural tours, and they've really been able to

0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.800
<v Speaker 1>implement important changes that respect their cultural values so that

0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, the rest of the country and the world

0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.320
<v Speaker 1>can continue to enjoy that site alongside them.

0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.479
<v Speaker 2>And we're going to keep discussing more about Uluru, but

0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:53.479
<v Speaker 2>first here is a quick message from our sponsor and so.

0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.839
<v Speaker 2>And we're talking about it today because it is the

0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.159
<v Speaker 2>forty year anniversary this week. I don't think it's exactly today,

0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:00.760
<v Speaker 2>but it is the week, yep.

0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.880
<v Speaker 1>How is it being commemorated, So celebrations started early, you're correct.

0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.800
<v Speaker 1>The anniversary officially is the twenty sixth, but last week

0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.360
<v Speaker 1>there was a service in London that was attended by

0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.120
<v Speaker 1>King Charles that was held at Australia House and a

0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.720
<v Speaker 1>group of nine traditional owners from the Red Center were

0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:21.400
<v Speaker 1>there to speak with the King.

0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Just to clarify Australia House in London.

0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Australia House in London. This is the High Commission, Australia's

0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.320
<v Speaker 1>High Commision in the UK. And there was one un

0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.880
<v Speaker 1>anew woman Alison Carroll, who was among the leaders that spoke,

0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.800
<v Speaker 1>and she reflected on the significance of the King's presence

0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.000
<v Speaker 1>at this event and her words were translated by a

0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.560
<v Speaker 1>fellow and a new representative, Harry Wilson, but basically she

0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.679
<v Speaker 1>described the handback process as one that gives the first

0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:51.080
<v Speaker 1>peoples of the area a sense of belonging, ownership and control.

0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.280
<v Speaker 1>She reflected on growing up seeing monarchs like the Queen

0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.480
<v Speaker 1>and how times have shifted for her people. The nine

0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:02.440
<v Speaker 1>representativetives who were there speaking to the King, they'll make

0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.160
<v Speaker 1>their way back to Australia now and they'll be on

0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.720
<v Speaker 1>country celebrations later in the week. That includes a public

0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:13.360
<v Speaker 1>celebration concert on Saturday, which will feature traditional dance, live performances,

0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.440
<v Speaker 1>and the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanzi is expected to attend

0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:17.680
<v Speaker 1>some of those celebrations.

0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:19.760
<v Speaker 2>I was going to ask, as the federal government said

0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:20.880
<v Speaker 2>much about this yet.

0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So during that service with King Charles in London,

0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.680
<v Speaker 1>there was a video message played from Anthony Albanesi and

0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the Prime Minister called the nineteen eighty five handback a

0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.080
<v Speaker 1>milestone in Aboriginal land rights in Australia. He called it

0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.960
<v Speaker 1>a powerful moment in the story of our continent. He

0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.000
<v Speaker 1>also thanked the traditional owners who made the long journey

0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.920
<v Speaker 1>to share their cultural history in the UK, as well

0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.640
<v Speaker 1>as the King for quote taking this opportunity to meet

0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.440
<v Speaker 1>with traditional owners ahead of what is a deeply significant anniversary.

0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.560
<v Speaker 1>He added, in Australia, Ularu stands as a monument to

0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.920
<v Speaker 1>our people's love for the country and their determination to

0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:57.120
<v Speaker 1>seek justice done.

0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.400
<v Speaker 2>One thing that I remember became a huge moment and

0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.920
<v Speaker 2>in recent memory when it comes to Uluru is the

0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.600
<v Speaker 2>ban on people walking over it. Do you remember that? Yes?

0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:06.960
<v Speaker 2>I think it was twenty nineteen.

0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.040
<v Speaker 1>It was twenty nineteen, really great memory.

0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:10.240
<v Speaker 2>How can you tell us about that?

0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.319
<v Speaker 1>So this is a direct outcome of the nineteen eighty

0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:18.680
<v Speaker 1>five handback, a really significant outcome at that. So, yeah,

0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.080
<v Speaker 1>in twenty nineteen we saw that change after decades of

0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.840
<v Speaker 1>tourists climbing the rock despite it being a sacred First

0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Nation site, and essentially after the traditional owners regained ownership,

0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.800
<v Speaker 1>they really pushed for and were finally able to close

0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.880
<v Speaker 1>that climb years of requests for that to happen. And

0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.640
<v Speaker 1>I also think it's interesting to reflect on the legacy

0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.319
<v Speaker 1>of forty years since this agreement, which has also been

0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.120
<v Speaker 1>replicated in other national parks across Australia, so it's influenced

0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.080
<v Speaker 1>quite broadly how we think about land rights and First

0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.959
<v Speaker 1>Nations participation in land management and how the government interacts

0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.959
<v Speaker 1>with traditional owners in those situations.

0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Here we go, I want to ask you how First

0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.359
<v Speaker 2>Nations issues have changed in the decades since the handback,

0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.720
<v Speaker 2>because it was October two years ago when the Voice

0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.840
<v Speaker 2>referendum happened as we know it failed. How have First

0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Nations issues changed and developed in the decades since the handback?

0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it would be remiss of us not

0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:27.120
<v Speaker 1>to describe the decades since as a really mixed picture.

0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.160
<v Speaker 1>As you mentioned, it was the two year anniversary just

0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.560
<v Speaker 1>a few days ago, on the fourteenth of October of

0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.360
<v Speaker 1>the failed Voice referendum, so that was the day in

0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.960
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three when Australia rejected that proposal to recognize

0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.560
<v Speaker 1>First Nations peoples in the Constitution to establish a voice

0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.120
<v Speaker 1>to Parliament. Just four of the nineteen closing the Gap

0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.840
<v Speaker 1>targets are on track to be met, and many of

0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:56.000
<v Speaker 1>the fundamental challenges First Nations communities face remain deeply entrenched.

0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:56.200
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.640
<v Speaker 1>Just last week as well, we saw the New South

0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Wales Coroner announced that they're been a record number of

0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.280
<v Speaker 1>First Nations deaths in custody so far this year in

0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.240
<v Speaker 1>the state. The coroner, Theresa O'Sullivan, called that a profoundly

0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:12.680
<v Speaker 1>distressing milestone. And of course that kind of coincided almost

0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.640
<v Speaker 1>to the day of the referendum failure, which means, you know,

0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:17.800
<v Speaker 1>there's been a lot of reflection. There is always a

0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.880
<v Speaker 1>lot of reflection at this time of year. But despite

0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.959
<v Speaker 1>the referendum's failure. I wanted to quote Alira Davis from

0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.880
<v Speaker 1>the Ularu Youth Dialogue. She spoke to the AAP last

0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.120
<v Speaker 1>week and said that even though the referendum did fail,

0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.120
<v Speaker 1>it started millions of conversations and changed the landscape of

0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.079
<v Speaker 1>Indigenous affairs in real ways. She said, quote people who

0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.719
<v Speaker 1>have never thought about certain parts of Australia's history, or

0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.160
<v Speaker 1>about how power is distributed, or about who makes decisions

0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:50.120
<v Speaker 1>for First Nations people, and now having these important conversations

0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.000
<v Speaker 1>because of the referendum, I just want to finish on

0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.160
<v Speaker 1>this line that she added, change in this country takes

0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.120
<v Speaker 1>time decades in our case, but history tells us it

0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:00.880
<v Speaker 1>always begins with persistence.

0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 2>A powerful quote to end on a really important story,

0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and like we said, one that we're going to be

0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.600
<v Speaker 2>hearing a lot about this week as it is the anniversary.

0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for explaining.

0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Billy, and thank.

0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.160
<v Speaker 2>You so much for listening to this episode of The

0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.280
<v Speaker 2>Daily Oz. We'll be back this afternoon with your afternoon headlines,

0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:23.520
<v Speaker 2>but until then, have a great day. My name is

0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Chalcuttin woman

0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast

0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.840
<v Speaker 2>is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and

0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.400
<v Speaker 2>pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.640
<v Speaker 2>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:41.959
<v Speaker 2>both past and present,