1
00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,240
Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the Daily ar,

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,359
Speaker 1: this is the Dahlias.

3
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 2: Oh now it makes sense.

4
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,439
Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,

5
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: the twentieth of October. I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy FitzSimons.

6
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,360
Speaker 1: This week marks forty years since a major milestone in

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 1: Aboriginal land rights history. In October nineteen eighty five, the

8
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: Federal government returned the title Deeds of Ularoo cart Tudor

9
00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 1: National Park to the traditional custodians of the region, the

10
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:37,360
Speaker 1: Unaknew people.

11
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,080
Speaker 2: I know a place in the hands of the Ularu

12
00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 2: cade Tutor Aboriginal Land Trust. The title deeds.

13
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 1: Four decades on. Celebrations began in London last week, where

14
00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: King Charles met with First Nations leaders ahead of more

15
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: anniversary plans on country this week. Today, we are going

16
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,240
Speaker 1: to take you through what led to the nineteen eighty

17
00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,600
Speaker 1: five handback, its significance and where thous Nations issues stand.

18
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 1: Four decades on.

19
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:14,320
Speaker 2: M Ularu is an iconic landmark. It attracts thousands, maybe millions,

20
00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,440
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but thousands of visitors definitely every single

21
00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,280
Speaker 2: year to Australia to kind of set the scene here.

22
00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,200
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us about the cultural significance

23
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,240
Speaker 2: of Ularu?

24
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. Ularu or Ularu Katujuda National Park is

25
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 1: this massive, massive site in Australia's Red Center. It covers

26
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 1: thirteen hundred square kilometers and within that park are two

27
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,119
Speaker 1: geological rock formations, two very large rock formations, I should

28
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: say Ularu which is three hundred and forty eight meters

29
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 1: high and Katajudah which is a group of thirty six

30
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 1: domes with the highest formations rising to around five hundred meters.

31
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: So these really remarkable natural formations and these are sacred

32
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 1: site rights to the traditional owners, the Unknew people who

33
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,480
Speaker 1: have lived in the area for more than thirty thousand years. Now,

34
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 1: two years after it was returned to the first peoples

35
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,960
Speaker 1: of the area, the handback were discussing today. The park

36
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 1: was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in nineteen

37
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 1: eighty seven, and that's significant because it basically guarantees the

38
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 1: protection of this site as a significant natural and cultural area.

39
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 2: And what do we know about Ularu prior to it

40
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,440
Speaker 2: being returned to the traditional owners.

41
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 1: So the land was taken over by the South Australian

42
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: government in eighteen seventy three, and in nineteen fifty eight

43
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,960
Speaker 1: the area was declared a National park by the Commonwealth,

44
00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: and that was a declaration that happened without consultation with

45
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,160
Speaker 1: the traditional owners Ularu. The rock, though, was called Ularu

46
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,040
Speaker 1: long before colonization, but in eighteen seventy three an explorer

47
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,519
Speaker 1: by the name of William Goss renamed it Airs Rock.

48
00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,320
Speaker 1: That was after the former South Australian Premier so Henrys,

49
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,959
Speaker 1: and for the better part of a century, Airs Rock

50
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 1: was the most widely used name for this sacred site.

51
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people have heard it referred

52
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 1: to as Rock, but in nineteen ninety three it was

53
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 1: officially renamed airs Rock slash Ularoo. It was the first

54
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,080
Speaker 1: NT landmark to actually be given dual names. Little interesting

55
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 1: bit of trivia there. And then in two thousand and

56
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,400
Speaker 1: two these names were reversed and the rock took on

57
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,920
Speaker 1: the official name of Oolaroo slash airs Rock, which it

58
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,480
Speaker 1: still has today, but more and more over recent years,

59
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: as Rock really feels like a name that has been

60
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,240
Speaker 1: a lot more phased out. Ularoo is I'd say that

61
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 1: the most prominent name that we call it these days,

62
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 1: and if you ever visit the area. All the traditional

63
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 1: owners of course, will call it Boolaro as well.

64
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,600
Speaker 2: So its name was returned to Ularu after it went

65
00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 2: through this handback process. I want to go back to

66
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 2: the handback process because that's what the anniversary this week is,

67
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,200
Speaker 2: do you I want to tell us more about what

68
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 2: led to that handback.

69
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this was a culmination of years and years

70
00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,080
Speaker 1: of advocacy by traditional owners who were fighting to regain

71
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 1: ownership of this sacred area, their sacred lands. So it

72
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 1: was a long campaign, but a key moment came in

73
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,840
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. That's when the Unknew people presented a

74
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 1: claim to the Aboriginal Land Rights Commission. Then we had

75
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,039
Speaker 1: six years of extensive hearings, investigations, and eventually a High

76
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 1: Court judge, a justice by the name of Leslie Touhey,

77
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 1: ruled in favor of the traditional owners and recommended the

78
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,640
Speaker 1: land be returned to them. That recommendation was accepted by

79
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,479
Speaker 1: the federal government and after negotiations, a formal handback ceremony

80
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,119
Speaker 1: happened on the twenty sixth of October nineteen eighty five,

81
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,559
Speaker 1: and that was when the Governor General at the time

82
00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,599
Speaker 1: returned the title deeds for Ularu Cutajutor to the traditional

83
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 1: custodians of the area.

84
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 2: So by no means it was an easy process. The

85
00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 2: government did try to fight the traditional owners through this.

86
00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 1: There was I suppose controversy around the process. Nineteen eighty

87
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,360
Speaker 1: five might not sound so long ago, but in terms

88
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 1: of the discussion about Aboriginal rights, it was certainly divisive

89
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,159
Speaker 1: in some parts of the country for a time.

90
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 2: And the site, now, like I said before, it's such

91
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 2: a popular tourist destination for so many people, you know,

92
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,360
Speaker 2: Australians as well as people coming from overseas. How does

93
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,160
Speaker 2: that work the tourism side of it.

94
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,479
Speaker 1: Yes, So this is a really interesting part of the story.

95
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 1: So during the same ceremony where ownership was returned to

96
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,279
Speaker 1: the traditional owners, they actually signed a joint management agreement

97
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,800
Speaker 1: to lease the park back to the Australian National Parks

98
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service. So the traditional owners agreed with this

99
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 1: government agency that they would work in partnership together to

100
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,280
Speaker 1: care for and manage the park. And that includes, you know,

101
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 1: managing the tourism trade in the area and maintaining culturally

102
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: sensitive practices for people who do visit that sacred site.

103
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,039
Speaker 2: And what does that agreement look like now in I

104
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 2: guess practical.

105
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 1: Terms, yes. So obviously there is this symbolic significance when

106
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about the title deeds being returned to the

107
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,280
Speaker 1: First Nations people of the area. But this also really

108
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 1: gave the unnew people legal ownership and a genuine say

109
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 1: in how their sacred lands are managed. So, for example,

110
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 1: under this joint management model, the traditional custodians have input

111
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,360
Speaker 1: into all major decisions about the park. They're employed as rangers,

112
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,159
Speaker 1: they conduct cultural tours, and they've really been able to

113
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 1: implement important changes that respect their cultural values so that

114
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,280
Speaker 1: you know, the rest of the country and the world

115
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 1: can continue to enjoy that site alongside them.

116
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,479
Speaker 2: And we're going to keep discussing more about Uluru, but

117
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:53,479
Speaker 2: first here is a quick message from our sponsor and so.

118
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,839
Speaker 2: And we're talking about it today because it is the

119
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,159
Speaker 2: forty year anniversary this week. I don't think it's exactly today,

120
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,760
Speaker 2: but it is the week, yep.

121
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 1: How is it being commemorated, So celebrations started early, you're correct.

122
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,800
Speaker 1: The anniversary officially is the twenty sixth, but last week

123
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 1: there was a service in London that was attended by

124
00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 1: King Charles that was held at Australia House and a

125
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 1: group of nine traditional owners from the Red Center were

126
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 1: there to speak with the King.

127
00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 2: Just to clarify Australia House in London.

128
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: Australia House in London. This is the High Commission, Australia's

129
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: High Commision in the UK. And there was one un

130
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 1: anew woman Alison Carroll, who was among the leaders that spoke,

131
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 1: and she reflected on the significance of the King's presence

132
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 1: at this event and her words were translated by a

133
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 1: fellow and a new representative, Harry Wilson, but basically she

134
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,679
Speaker 1: described the handback process as one that gives the first

135
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,080
Speaker 1: peoples of the area a sense of belonging, ownership and control.

136
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: She reflected on growing up seeing monarchs like the Queen

137
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 1: and how times have shifted for her people. The nine

138
00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 1: representativetives who were there speaking to the King, they'll make

139
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 1: their way back to Australia now and they'll be on

140
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 1: country celebrations later in the week. That includes a public

141
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,360
Speaker 1: celebration concert on Saturday, which will feature traditional dance, live performances,

142
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,440
Speaker 1: and the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanzi is expected to attend

143
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 1: some of those celebrations.

144
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,760
Speaker 2: I was going to ask, as the federal government said

145
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:20,880
Speaker 2: much about this yet.

146
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, So during that service with King Charles in London,

147
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,680
Speaker 1: there was a video message played from Anthony Albanesi and

148
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister called the nineteen eighty five handback a

149
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,080
Speaker 1: milestone in Aboriginal land rights in Australia. He called it

150
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 1: a powerful moment in the story of our continent. He

151
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 1: also thanked the traditional owners who made the long journey

152
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 1: to share their cultural history in the UK, as well

153
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: as the King for quote taking this opportunity to meet

154
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,440
Speaker 1: with traditional owners ahead of what is a deeply significant anniversary.

155
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,560
Speaker 1: He added, in Australia, Ularu stands as a monument to

156
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: our people's love for the country and their determination to

157
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 1: seek justice done.

158
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,400
Speaker 2: One thing that I remember became a huge moment and

159
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 2: in recent memory when it comes to Uluru is the

160
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,600
Speaker 2: ban on people walking over it. Do you remember that? Yes?

161
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:06,960
Speaker 2: I think it was twenty nineteen.

162
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: It was twenty nineteen, really great memory.

163
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 2: How can you tell us about that?

164
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,319
Speaker 1: So this is a direct outcome of the nineteen eighty

165
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,680
Speaker 1: five handback, a really significant outcome at that. So, yeah,

166
00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,080
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen we saw that change after decades of

167
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,840
Speaker 1: tourists climbing the rock despite it being a sacred First

168
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 1: Nation site, and essentially after the traditional owners regained ownership,

169
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,800
Speaker 1: they really pushed for and were finally able to close

170
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,880
Speaker 1: that climb years of requests for that to happen. And

171
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,640
Speaker 1: I also think it's interesting to reflect on the legacy

172
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,319
Speaker 1: of forty years since this agreement, which has also been

173
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,120
Speaker 1: replicated in other national parks across Australia, so it's influenced

174
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,080
Speaker 1: quite broadly how we think about land rights and First

175
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,959
Speaker 1: Nations participation in land management and how the government interacts

176
00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,959
Speaker 1: with traditional owners in those situations.

177
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 2: Here we go, I want to ask you how First

178
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,359
Speaker 2: Nations issues have changed in the decades since the handback,

179
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 2: because it was October two years ago when the Voice

180
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,840
Speaker 2: referendum happened as we know it failed. How have First

181
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:20,200
Speaker 2: Nations issues changed and developed in the decades since the handback?

182
00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it would be remiss of us not

183
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 1: to describe the decades since as a really mixed picture.

184
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, it was the two year anniversary just

185
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,560
Speaker 1: a few days ago, on the fourteenth of October of

186
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 1: the failed Voice referendum, so that was the day in

187
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three when Australia rejected that proposal to recognize

188
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,560
Speaker 1: First Nations peoples in the Constitution to establish a voice

189
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,120
Speaker 1: to Parliament. Just four of the nineteen closing the Gap

190
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,840
Speaker 1: targets are on track to be met, and many of

191
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 1: the fundamental challenges First Nations communities face remain deeply entrenched.

192
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:56,200
Speaker 2: You know.

193
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,640
Speaker 1: Just last week as well, we saw the New South

194
00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,280
Speaker 1: Wales Coroner announced that they're been a record number of

195
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,280
Speaker 1: First Nations deaths in custody so far this year in

196
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 1: the state. The coroner, Theresa O'Sullivan, called that a profoundly

197
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 1: distressing milestone. And of course that kind of coincided almost

198
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 1: to the day of the referendum failure, which means, you know,

199
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,800
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of reflection. There is always a

200
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of reflection at this time of year. But despite

201
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,959
Speaker 1: the referendum's failure. I wanted to quote Alira Davis from

202
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,880
Speaker 1: the Ularu Youth Dialogue. She spoke to the AAP last

203
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 1: week and said that even though the referendum did fail,

204
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,120
Speaker 1: it started millions of conversations and changed the landscape of

205
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,079
Speaker 1: Indigenous affairs in real ways. She said, quote people who

206
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,719
Speaker 1: have never thought about certain parts of Australia's history, or

207
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,160
Speaker 1: about how power is distributed, or about who makes decisions

208
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 1: for First Nations people, and now having these important conversations

209
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,000
Speaker 1: because of the referendum, I just want to finish on

210
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 1: this line that she added, change in this country takes

211
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,120
Speaker 1: time decades in our case, but history tells us it

212
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:00,880
Speaker 1: always begins with persistence.

213
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 2: A powerful quote to end on a really important story,

214
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,640
Speaker 2: and like we said, one that we're going to be

215
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 2: hearing a lot about this week as it is the anniversary.

216
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:10,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for explaining.

217
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: Thank you, Billy, and thank.

218
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: You so much for listening to this episode of The

219
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 2: Daily Oz. We'll be back this afternoon with your afternoon headlines,

220
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 2: but until then, have a great day. My name is

221
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,000
Speaker 2: Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Chalcuttin woman

222
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 2: from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast

223
00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,840
Speaker 2: is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and

224
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 2: pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

225
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,640
Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

226
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:41,959
Speaker 2: both past and present,