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Speaker 1: Welcome to Coffee Time, a podcast series on markets and

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Speaker 1: economies from dBS group Research. I'm Tamar Beck, chief economist

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Speaker 1: welcoming to our 88th episode. Pretty Auspicious number. Uh today's

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Speaker 1: guest is dr lin liu, who will talk about efforts

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Speaker 1: to bring a critical part of the global economy, which

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Speaker 1: is international shipping.

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Speaker 1: Uh an academic by training Dr Lewis presently on leave

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Speaker 1: from Princeton University where she is Theodora D and William H. Walton,

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Speaker 1: third professor in engineering in 2017, she co founded and

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Speaker 1: Luca Technologies, a startup, developing wireless smart window solutions to

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Speaker 1: increasing energy efficiency of buildings and improve occupant comfort.

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Speaker 1: Since 2021. She has been here in Singapore shaping and

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Speaker 1: leading the Global Center for Maritime decarbonization or GCM D.

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Speaker 1: You will hear that acronym several times in this podcast.

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Speaker 1: T C M D is a nonprofit set up to

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Speaker 1: help accelerate international shipping transition to a low and zero

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Speaker 1: carbon future. We've done quite a few podcasts on climate change,

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Speaker 1: but this one is very sectoral, very specific and I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited about it. Dr lin liu. Welcome to Covid Time.

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Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you tell us about GCM D.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I prefer to go with the acronym G cmd

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Speaker 2: because the full name is indeed a mouthful. Um so

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Speaker 2: as you said, G cmd is a nonprofit, we're about

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Speaker 2: 14 months old. We were set up at the recommendation

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Speaker 2: of this international advisory panel for maritime decarbonization that was

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Speaker 2: convened here in Singapore.

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Speaker 2: Um that that had basically chief executives of shipping companies,

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Speaker 2: battery companies, etcetera. To think about what we can do

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Speaker 2: here to really um move the sector forward. And so

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Speaker 2: the I. P. Met over covid and recommended the setting

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Speaker 2: up of um a coordinating body uh to look at

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Speaker 2: action oriented things that we can do to accelerate decarbonization

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Speaker 2: for international shipping.

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Speaker 2: Um This recommendation was put forward um in april last

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Speaker 2: year and that was accepted. Uh Six industry partners came

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Speaker 2: forward and said they would start, so they are our

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Speaker 2: founding partners essentially and they provided $10 million apiece. And

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Speaker 2: then Singapore's Maritime and Port Authority came in and match

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Speaker 2: that with $60 million and that formed the first tranche

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Speaker 2: of our fund

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Speaker 2: for G C M G. So G CMd sits right

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Speaker 2: at the private and public interface. Um and really our

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Speaker 2: mission is to help the international shipping sector eliminate g

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Speaker 2: emissions and we do this by doing three following things.

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Speaker 2: One is to shape standards for future fuels, uh the

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Speaker 2: other is to finance first of a kind

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Speaker 2: projects and then the third would be to pilot low

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Speaker 2: carbon solutions uh in real world operating conditions. And the

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Speaker 2: reason we can do this is because um you know,

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Speaker 2: we are a group of engineers and scientists, we have

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Speaker 2: domain and technical expertise, we can scope projects, we have

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Speaker 2: the flexible funding that our founders have provided us with

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Speaker 2: and subsequent partners have provided us with.

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Speaker 2: We are an N. G. O. So we're neutral convener

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Speaker 2: so we can bring the stakeholders across the supply chain.

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Speaker 2: Um and even beyond the ecosystem together to work on

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Speaker 2: these pilots and then finally with mph as our partner

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Speaker 2: we have access to regulators and so we can begin

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Speaker 2: to think about putting sandboxes together so that we can

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Speaker 2: actually do these meaningful pilots. So that's in a nutshell.

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Speaker 2: Woogie cmd is

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Speaker 2: oh

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Speaker 1: this is so exciting. Um the ability to have that

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Speaker 1: kind of flexibility and be in a coordinating role. Um

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Speaker 1: and that sounds like a role of a lifetime Lynn.

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Speaker 1: Um but let me step back for a second and

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Speaker 1: ask the most obvious question, which is why do we

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Speaker 1: need to solve for maritime decarbonization and how large are

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Speaker 1: the States?

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Speaker 2: Ah that's a really good question. I mean um so

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Speaker 2: 14 months ago I knew nothing about shipping, right? And

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Speaker 2: so to me shipping was um sort of you know

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Speaker 2: out of out of sight out of mind and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure that's the case for lots of people. We think

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Speaker 2: about shipping when we think about O. R.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps we think about shipping when we think about our

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Speaker 2: Amazon boxes coming outdoors. Um but shipping is really integral

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Speaker 2: to the global supply chain. So tomorrow do you know

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Speaker 2: that shipping is responsible for 90% of the global trade?

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Speaker 2: So it touches 90% of the global trade, right?

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Speaker 2: Um and it's responsible for 3% of global carbon emissions.

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Speaker 2: Um and just to put things in perspective, 3% may

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Speaker 2: not sound like a lot, but 3% makes it um

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Speaker 2: a the sixth largest emitter, if you will from a

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Speaker 2: country perspective, um shipping is regulated by a single entity

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Speaker 2: called the International Maritime Organization or the IMF.

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Speaker 2: Um and so shipping submissions is actually counted um separate

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Speaker 2: from individual countries carbon inventory. Right? So it has its

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Speaker 2: own carbon emissions. That's why I can tell you it's 3%

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Speaker 2: and that 3% is comparable to that of aviation. So

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Speaker 2: why is this such big stakes? Well, because it's such

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Speaker 2: an integral part of the global supply chain,

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Speaker 2: essentially our scope one emissions is always gonna be somebody

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Speaker 2: else's scope three emissions. So the cargo owners, the consumers,

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Speaker 2: they can't dick carbonized if we don't dick carbonized. So

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Speaker 2: that's how linked we are in in in terms of

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Speaker 2: the global supply chain. Right? So it's really important for

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Speaker 2: us to think about decarbonization shipping so that the whole

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Speaker 2: world can be carbon eyes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So speaking of International Maritime Organization, so I understand,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are these certain targets that they have said.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a bit about those targets and your

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Speaker 1: overall thoughts, we're gonna go into specific label your broad

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Speaker 1: based thoughts on how do we go about addressing these targets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, um so I M. O. Has set targets

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Speaker 2: for decarbonization. International shipping and the target is to reduce

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Speaker 2: carbon intensity by 40% by 2030 relative to 2008 levels,

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Speaker 2: and then to reduce total g emissions by 50% by 2050. Now,

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Speaker 2: you'll notice that these targets aren't exactly pairs aligned because

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Speaker 2: power

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Speaker 2: um targets call for net zero by 2015. Nonetheless, these

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Speaker 2: are very ambitious target for shipping because in order for

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Speaker 2: us to get to these kinds of targets, um basically

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Speaker 2: we're looking at low carbon and zero carbon fuels that

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Speaker 2: are currently not available today. Okay. Um so that's that's

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Speaker 2: just the target side of things. So how how am

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Speaker 2: I looking at this? Well, I think um

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Speaker 2: you know, um shipping went from using wind as propulsion

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Speaker 2: to coal to generate steam to oil. And now we're

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Speaker 2: looking at sort of the fourth incarnation of what we

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Speaker 2: should be using as fuels, right?

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Speaker 2: Um just the industrial revolution alone, if you look at

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Speaker 2: sort of um what um really helped um economies develop,

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Speaker 2: that uh industrial revolution took place, and that energy system

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Speaker 2: that was built took more than a century. Um and

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Speaker 2: now we're talking about a completely different energy infrastructure and

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Speaker 2: we'd like to build this in 30 years.

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Speaker 2: Um That's a really, really tall task. It's a challenging task.

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Speaker 2: Um It's saying this is not meant to cripple one,

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Speaker 2: but it's just to put things into perspective, right, in

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Speaker 2: terms of how long it took for us to kind

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Speaker 2: of embrace oil and gas, and now we're saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: forget about oil and gas. Let's think about renewables. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, let's do this in 30 years. Um

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Speaker 2: so in order to think about this energy transition, I

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Speaker 2: think we need to chunk it up into pieces.

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Speaker 2: We need to think about near term solutions. We need

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Speaker 2: to think about medium term solutions and then we need

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Speaker 2: to think about long term solutions. It's easy to just

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Speaker 2: kind of look at the long term solutions because there's

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Speaker 2: no question where we'd like to end up, but it's

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Speaker 2: not obvious how to get there right. Like I said

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Speaker 2: for shipping, the long term solution is really the zero

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Speaker 2: carbon fuels, the green pneumonias, green methanol, etcetera that's needed

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Speaker 2: um for us to to to be able to sail

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Speaker 2: without admitting G. Um

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Speaker 2: so, so I think what we need to do is

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Speaker 2: to keep an eye on the ball on the long

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Speaker 2: term solution and work hard on that. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 2: do what we can with what we have now to

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Speaker 2: start bending the curve. And so what it means is

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Speaker 2: we need to simultaneously work on near term solutions. So

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Speaker 2: that include a

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Speaker 2: but it includes technologies that can reduce fuel consumption, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, wind sails, like whole cleaning robots, like air lubrication,

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Speaker 2: but also look at um low carbon fuels that are

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Speaker 2: available today. So biofuels perhaps even liquefied natural gas now

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Speaker 2: they aren't without their set of issues, but I think

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Speaker 2: done right and used properly, they can reduce our carbon

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Speaker 2: footprint in the meantime

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Speaker 2: and then the in the medium term, I think we

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Speaker 2: need to think about things like shipboard carbon capture um

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Speaker 2: carbon capture provides the runway for green fuels to scale

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Speaker 2: for green fuel costs to come down. And so we

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Speaker 2: need to think about mid term solutions as well. So

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Speaker 2: basically to chunk up the energy transition and think about

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Speaker 2: solution in three buckets um most importantly, I think um

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Speaker 2: you know, we can't do this alone, right? Um um

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Speaker 2: just talking about fuels, right? I think if you think

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Speaker 2: about shipping fuels is really outside the sector, so we

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Speaker 2: need to think about um sectorial collaboration and partnership, but

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Speaker 2: we also more importantly need to think about cross sector

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Speaker 2: collaboration and partnerships as well in order to really uh

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Speaker 2: get moving and move the needle and

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Speaker 2: and I think finally we need the carrot and the stick.

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Speaker 2: So having a price on carbon certainly will help. Um

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Speaker 2: and and also having regulations and having these targets so

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Speaker 2: that we know where we're headed and that you know,

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Speaker 2: these policies are enforced. So all those things need to

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Speaker 2: come into play if we're going to get to those

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Speaker 2: targets that we just talked about.

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Speaker 1: Right, okay, we are gonna unpack some of these because

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff you said, we can't just, you know,

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Speaker 1: just use the word you have to explain to us

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Speaker 1: in greater detail. So um first technologies than solutions and

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Speaker 1: then I want to talk about carbon capture. Alright, so

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Speaker 1: starting with current and frontier technologies, you sort of touched

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Speaker 1: upon them and I'm really tantalized by them. So what

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Speaker 1: is a little greater detail about some of the technologies

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Speaker 1: that you think are promising now and then the frontier

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Speaker 1: stuff that you know

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Speaker 1: almost sounds like science fiction, but we'd like it to happen.

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Speaker 2: Well let's not call it science

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Speaker 1: fiction, It

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Speaker 2: happen, it's a matter of time, it will happen. So

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Speaker 2: we don't want to call that science fiction. Right? So

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Speaker 2: we can talk about the near term solutions first. I

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Speaker 2: mean near term solutions are things that are currently available

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Speaker 2: today that when install you can shave emissions by, I

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Speaker 2: don't know anywhere from 1 to 10%. Okay, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: get you all the way there, but

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Speaker 2: you can start shaving emissions. So those are things like

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Speaker 2: wind sales that you can put on board. Um in

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Speaker 2: fact just a couple days ago I saw, so my

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Speaker 2: office is at, so I look I I overlooked the

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Speaker 2: Panjang terminal ports. Um and I saw one of our partnership,

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Speaker 2: so this is an ocean network express container ship that

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Speaker 2: had this white thing at its bow, so at the

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Speaker 2: front of the ship and I couldn't quite figure out

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Speaker 2: what it was. So I

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Speaker 2: Ask your friends at, oh any and they basically said

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Speaker 2: Oh it's a wind deflector and so I looked it

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Speaker 2: up and it turns out that this wind deflector is

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Speaker 2: essentially like a visor on trucks or even on motorcycles.

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Speaker 2: And it basically reduces drag and by reducing drag as

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Speaker 2: it sails, you can reduce fuel consumption and it reduces

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Speaker 2: fuel consumption by about 2%. Right? So these are the

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Speaker 2: kinds of things one can do in the interim.

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Speaker 1: This was a large container ship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so these are the kinds of

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Speaker 2: things one can do right? Um there are operational measures

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Speaker 2: one can also do. So for example, this idea of

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Speaker 2: just in time. So basically you can sail more slowly

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Speaker 2: and when you sail more slowly, you use less fuel

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Speaker 2: so that you get to the ports just in time

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Speaker 2: as opposed to going fast and then getting to the

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Speaker 2: ports and then having to wait at the court for

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Speaker 2: a berth space or whatnot. Right? So these are the

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Speaker 2: kinds of things one can do again. It shapes um

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Speaker 2: fuel consumption and so it nets out carbon emissions by

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Speaker 2: between 1 to 10% depending on what we're talking about

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Speaker 2: in terms of fuel. Uh current fuels, low carbon fuels

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Speaker 2: are available are things like biofuels. Now, biofuels are not

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Speaker 2: at scale. So we understand that, but you know, if

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Speaker 2: you can deploy some of it, you can reduce your

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Speaker 2: carbon footprint. So the concept of drop in um is important.

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Speaker 2: So that's the idea of taking some

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Speaker 2: biofuels and dropping it into marine fuel so that you

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Speaker 2: can reduce your carbon footprint some now of course it's

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Speaker 2: important to know where your biofuel comes from because its

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Speaker 2: origination um would affect its carbon footprint reduction. Right? And

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Speaker 2: then it's important to know how much you have in

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Speaker 2: there so that you can properly calculate your g emissions abatement.

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Speaker 2: Um you can use liquefied natural gas um provided that

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Speaker 2: there's no methane slip upstream, provided you're not leaking methane

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Speaker 2: because methane is an even more potent greenhouse gas um

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Speaker 2: you can reduce carbon emissions by about 20%. So these

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Speaker 2: are things that we need to think about. I don't

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Speaker 2: think we should a priority cross anything out at this

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Speaker 2: moment because we need to do whatever we can with

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Speaker 2: whatever we have now

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Speaker 2: to really bend the curve on carbon emissions. So these

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Speaker 2: are the kinds of things we can do sort of now,

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Speaker 1: just a second on the biofuel one, is that concept

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Speaker 1: or is it actually happening in the world?

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Speaker 2: It's actually happening. So I mean there are there have

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Speaker 2: been lots of trials that have been done and you

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Speaker 2: can commercially purchase biofuels, there's a green fuel premium associated

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Speaker 2: with using biofuels and so then you need to justify

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Speaker 2: this green fuel

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Speaker 2: premium or you need your customers to be able to

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Speaker 2: pay for the green fuel premium. So in fact what

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Speaker 2: we've done um earlier in the years, we've spoken to

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Speaker 2: our stakeholders, this is typical of how we scope our pilots.

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Speaker 2: So we spoke to about 200 stakeholders across the supply

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Speaker 2: chain and we asked them, why aren't you using biofuels?

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Speaker 2: Biofuels are available today? Why aren't you using more biofuels?

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Speaker 2: And repeatedly, the pain point that has come up is, well,

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Speaker 2: the supply chain is actually quite

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Speaker 2: opaque. So we don't quite know what we're getting, we

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Speaker 2: don't know what we're paying for. So what we've done

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Speaker 2: is we've basically scoped a pilot with 13 vessels bunkering,

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Speaker 2: meaning refueling at three different ports on three different continents.

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Speaker 2: So Singapore Rotterdam and Houston with different kinds of biofuels

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Speaker 2: with the goal of bolstering the supply chain integrity. So

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Speaker 2: we're gonna use a tracer technology, we're gonna go all

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Speaker 2: the way up stream

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Speaker 2: to the biofuel producer and we're gonna put that into

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Speaker 2: the biofuel, it's a tag and flag so you know

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Speaker 2: where it originates from. So you know, its carbon footprint

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Speaker 2: at the beginning and then you follow it down the

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Speaker 2: supply chain. And so then you can have assurance on

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Speaker 2: the quality on the quantity on the abatement potential and

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Speaker 2: that should give confidence to the purchaser um to justice

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Speaker 2: by the green fuel premium that 11 is purchasing, Right? So,

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Speaker 2: so that's sort of the idea to bolster the integrity

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Speaker 2: of the supply chain and we're doing this for biofuels

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Speaker 2: for now because biofuels are, is available today, but looking

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Speaker 2: forward when green fuels become available, they're not going to

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Speaker 2: be available at scale immediately. So again, this drop in

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Speaker 2: concept of mixing green with gray is going to be important.

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Speaker 2: And again, there you want to know how much of

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Speaker 2: the green is.

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Speaker 2: They're the quality of the green, the carbon footprint of

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Speaker 2: the green fuel um so that you can justify the

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Speaker 2: green fuel premium. So we think this framework is going

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Speaker 2: to be extensible to future green fuels as well.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting. So now on the lng part you

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Speaker 1: talked about the risk of methane leakage and so on.

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Speaker 1: So walk us through a little bit about the potential

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Speaker 1: actual practice and what kind of solutions do you have

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Speaker 1: in mind to deal with the leakage issue?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think um so the leakage, of

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Speaker 2: course the engine um leakages something within the sector and

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Speaker 2: that's something that engine manufacturers are working hard to address.

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Speaker 2: And in fact I think um done right. Um um

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Speaker 2: the engines actually have very very little slip or leaks

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Speaker 2: and so the the large portion of the leeks actually

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Speaker 2: happened upstream right at the wellhead etcetera etcetera. Um

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Speaker 2: so there, I think you need constant monitoring technologies to

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Speaker 2: know that you're not leaking methane um and and I

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Speaker 2: know there are satellite companies etcetera that are looking at this. Again,

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Speaker 2: this is out of this is out of our sectorial scope.

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Speaker 2: So um we haven't kept track too much except to

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Speaker 2: say that it's important um for upstream to manage the

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Speaker 2: leak and manage the slip along the way.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting. Okay, so I'm not going to use the

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Speaker 1: word science fiction anymore. Frontier technology. So these are the

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Speaker 1: intermediate solutions. Where do you see the most exciting? The

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Speaker 1: biggest potential on the frontier side is

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, so these would be the zero

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Speaker 2: carbon fuels. Right. And and so these would be um,

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Speaker 2: they're also called E fuels because E stands for, you know,

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Speaker 2: from electrons. And so the the implications, you have enough

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Speaker 2: renewable electrons to generate green hydrogen and use that green

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Speaker 2: hydrogen as a feedstock to produce either ammonia. So that's

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Speaker 2: called the green pneumonia

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Speaker 2: or e methanol, ethanol has one added step of complexity

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Speaker 2: in its production in that methanol still has a carbon.

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Speaker 2: So in order for the methanol to be zero carbon,

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Speaker 2: you need either a biogenic source of captured carbon or

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Speaker 2: you need direct air captured carbon to make that methanol

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Speaker 2: in order for the methanol to be zero carbon. Okay,

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Speaker 2: um or it could be any kind of synthetic fuel,

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Speaker 2: like a synthetic diesel etcetera, etcetera. So the idea is

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Speaker 2: it originates from renewable electrons. So those are the fuels

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Speaker 2: of the future. And those are the fuels that would um,

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Speaker 2: in the long run allow shipping to completely de carbonized.

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Speaker 2: But these fuels aren't available, like, I mean take ammonia

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Speaker 2: for for for a second.

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Speaker 2: Um, there's very little green ammonia to be to be

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Speaker 2: spoken off today. Right. Um and so so we need

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Speaker 2: time for the infrastructure to scale. We need time to

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Speaker 2: build up that supply chain. We need time for the

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Speaker 2: production to scale up so that these fuels are available

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Speaker 2: um to the shipping community. But I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are lots of end uses for ammonia. I mean

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Speaker 2: like fertilizer to Right? And so um yeah, so, so

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Speaker 2: so I think um time we need time. And so

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Speaker 2: that's why in the interim one needs to think about

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Speaker 2: the near term solution as well as the mid term solution,

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Speaker 2: which is carbon capture, which I understand will come back

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Speaker 2: and talk about in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: You wanted to go right there? Yes, I wanna I've

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Speaker 1: heard you in other forum talk about carbon capture and

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Speaker 1: I've heard some challenges to the notion of carbon capture

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Speaker 1: as well. So I went up and read a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So there are certain climate activists who argue that, you know,

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Speaker 1: carbon capture is expensive. It's energy intensive. It's risky to

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Speaker 1: store and risky to dispose um walk us through the

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Speaker 1: potential as well as the risks around carbon capture.

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Speaker 2: I mean,

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Speaker 2: the short answer is what you said is all true.

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Speaker 2: But then again,

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Speaker 2: what technology doesn't have a drawback, right? I mean, even

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Speaker 2: the fossil fuel that we use today has a major drawback.

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Speaker 2: And that's uh that's that's it's used basically has caused

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Speaker 2: irreparable damage to our environment and yet we use it. Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, so I think we need to go in

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Speaker 2: with

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Speaker 2: eyes wide open, understand the pros and cons and then

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Speaker 2: try to accentuate the pros and then eliminate or mitigate

375
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Speaker 2: the cons. Right? And so so I think that's how

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Speaker 2: I think about all technologies and carbon capture and sequestration

377
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Speaker 2: in particular.

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Speaker 2: So the idea of carbon capture is um you're going

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Speaker 2: to take um C. 02 emissions out. Um And so

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Speaker 2: there's point source carbon capture and that's basically carbon capture

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Speaker 2: of flue gasses. Um um and so they're the sio

382
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Speaker 2: two is is more concentrated because it comes from flue gas,

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Speaker 2: whether it's, you know, a power plant or you know,

384
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Speaker 2: a cement

385
00:21:00,850 --> 00:21:02,950
Speaker 2: plan or a steel plant. So this is on land,

386
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Speaker 2: let's talk about on land first. Um and um while

387
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Speaker 2: the technology um overall is still sort of in the

388
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Speaker 2: demonstration stage, these point source carbon capture technologies would be

389
00:21:14,130 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 2: the most mature amongst them. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean depending on which report you need, it's about

391
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Speaker 2: $100 a ton for you to break even okay for

392
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Speaker 2: such technology. So yes, it's expensive.

393
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 2: Um the other technology that's sort of not as far

394
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 2: along is something called direct air capture and that's you'd

395
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Speaker 2: have to capture carbon and and basically separate carbon dioxide

396
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Speaker 2: out from atmosphere. And because it's less concentrated, it's just

397
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Speaker 2: gonna be more energy intensive and it's just gonna cost

398
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Speaker 2: more And they're, the cost is between I mean I've

399
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:51,350
Speaker 2: heard numbers between $250 a ton to upward $1000 a ton. Okay.

400
00:21:51,580 --> 00:21:55,889
Speaker 2: Um um For shipping we're thinking about carbon capture on

401
00:21:55,890 --> 00:22:00,790
Speaker 2: ships because you know as you burn fuels you're generating

402
00:22:00,790 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 2: carbon dioxide and it comes out of the funnel if

403
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 2: there's an opportunity to capture that carbon dioxide um then

404
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: you're really releasing less into the atmosphere.

405
00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:14,669
Speaker 2: Um We understand that there's no economies of scale. I

406
00:22:14,670 --> 00:22:17,670
Speaker 2: mean essentially we're putting a small chemical factory on individual

407
00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:22,310
Speaker 2: ships right? Nonetheless as long as we're thinking about sectorial

408
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:27,350
Speaker 2: emissions and we want to reduce sectorial emissions. This is

409
00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 2: something I think shipping needs to think about. Um So

410
00:22:31,130 --> 00:22:31,710
Speaker 2: um

411
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,490
Speaker 2: um what are what what is involved in the process?

412
00:22:35,490 --> 00:22:39,030
Speaker 2: Well it involves capturing carbon dioxide first and then once

413
00:22:39,030 --> 00:22:41,750
Speaker 2: you've captured that C. 02 you need to store it

414
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:45,030
Speaker 2: on board ships. So you need to liquefy it and

415
00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:47,730
Speaker 2: then store it on board shifts and then you need

416
00:22:47,730 --> 00:22:49,740
Speaker 2: to get rid of it. Um And so there is

417
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Speaker 2: a reverse bunkering process or an offloading process that one

418
00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:55,710
Speaker 2: needs to think about and then one needs to think

419
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Speaker 2: about off takers, what do you do with that carbon

420
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Speaker 2: dioxide

421
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: once you've captured and you've offloaded it. The last thing

422
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,700
Speaker 2: you want to do is to release it back into

423
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:08,830
Speaker 2: the atmosphere. And so we think this is sufficiently interesting

424
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,910
Speaker 2: and important to the sector that we've actually two weeks

425
00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:15,950
Speaker 2: ago just launched another pilot um looking at ship world

426
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 2: carbon capture, and here this is going to be the

427
00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: largest carbon capture a pilot to date. It adds

428
00:23:24,970 --> 00:23:28,030
Speaker 2: Scale because we want to do everything to the extent

429
00:23:28,030 --> 00:23:33,570
Speaker 2: possible um under real world conditions, under commercial and operational conditions.

430
00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:38,310
Speaker 2: Um so we've identified standard bulks um medium range tanker,

431
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: and we've identified the medium range tanker because um similar

432
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,850
Speaker 2: sized vessels contribute about 17% of shipping emissions. So it's

433
00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:48,170
Speaker 2: a big sector that we can influence if we can

434
00:23:48,170 --> 00:23:51,490
Speaker 2: demonstrate this technology to be done correctly.

435
00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:55,310
Speaker 2: And so the idea is to capture carbon dioxide at

436
00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:59,420
Speaker 2: a 30% capture rate on this medium range tanker um

437
00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:03,450
Speaker 2: over 500 hours of operations. And then to liquefy it

438
00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:06,820
Speaker 2: on board. So there's a lot of energy demand associated

439
00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:08,390
Speaker 2: with liquefying it. And so the

440
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,930
Speaker 2: part of the pilot is to address the energy demand

441
00:24:11,930 --> 00:24:15,710
Speaker 2: side of things. Um And so we're looking at waste

442
00:24:15,710 --> 00:24:19,060
Speaker 2: heat um we're looking at d tuning the engine perhaps

443
00:24:19,060 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: to generate a little more waste heat, so that net net,

444
00:24:22,210 --> 00:24:25,379
Speaker 2: you know, while the engine is suboptimal, maybe net net

445
00:24:25,390 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: when you consider the energy system on the vessel itself,

446
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:32,650
Speaker 2: that it would be more productive use of waste heat

447
00:24:32,650 --> 00:24:34,949
Speaker 2: to use the waste heat to run the scrubber for

448
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:36,050
Speaker 2: carbon capture

449
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,530
Speaker 2: and then um and then we need to demonstrate offloading

450
00:24:39,530 --> 00:24:41,250
Speaker 2: that carbon dioxide. Um

451
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:43,910
Speaker 2: and then and then we've identified an off taker to

452
00:24:43,910 --> 00:24:46,379
Speaker 2: take that carbon dioxide. So it's an end to end

453
00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: pilot um from capture to um to in this case

454
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,750
Speaker 2: it's a utilization as opposed to storage. Um but I

455
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:58,730
Speaker 2: don't want to poo poo. The challenges beyond beyond capture

456
00:24:58,730 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: and storage. Um I think the challenges that you had

457
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,780
Speaker 2: referred to um when you hear about the activist talk,

458
00:25:05,780 --> 00:25:09,340
Speaker 2: it's about storage and disposal, right? And so sequestration is

459
00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:10,379
Speaker 2: really important

460
00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:13,770
Speaker 2: and um as long as carbon capture is going to

461
00:25:13,770 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 2: be part of the portfolio of solutions, one really needs

462
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,290
Speaker 2: to think about trans boundary handling of C. 02 because

463
00:25:22,290 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 2: where you collect, even on land where you collect is

464
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,950
Speaker 2: not necessarily going to be where you store simply because

465
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:31,490
Speaker 2: the reservoirs aren't there? Um So one needs to think

466
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:34,449
Speaker 2: about trans boundary issues. And currently trans boundary issues are

467
00:25:34,450 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: very challenging because who wants to take

468
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:40,930
Speaker 2: your weight, Nobody really wants to take. There are risks

469
00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:45,179
Speaker 2: and liability and loss and damages that are associated with

470
00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:48,540
Speaker 2: um with taking somebody else's C. 02, right? So an

471
00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 2: international framework needs to be in place to be able

472
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: to help move this along. Um But I take I

473
00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:00,070
Speaker 2: take inspiration and I'm encouraged by a couple of commercial

474
00:26:00,070 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: contracts that have been announced. So there is a commercial

475
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,379
Speaker 2: contract between

476
00:26:04,550 --> 00:26:07,930
Speaker 2: uh Norway and the Netherlands where it's going to be

477
00:26:07,930 --> 00:26:11,050
Speaker 2: captured in one country and it's sequestered in another country

478
00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: and this commercial contract is backed by the relevant ministries

479
00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:19,780
Speaker 2: of both countries. There's another commercial contract between Denmark and Belgium.

480
00:26:19,790 --> 00:26:21,850
Speaker 2: So I mean I think we need to look at

481
00:26:21,850 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: these kinds of examples and learn from these kinds of

482
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,929
Speaker 2: examples and see how we can extend this on a

483
00:26:28,930 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: global basis so that you can actually capture in one

484
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,030
Speaker 2: region and then store in another region. Right.

485
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:38,750
Speaker 1: Very interesting. Lynn can you help me sort of visualize

486
00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:40,890
Speaker 1: the process? So there's a tanker like the way you

487
00:26:40,890 --> 00:26:44,899
Speaker 1: made me help me visualize the drag sail in the

488
00:26:44,910 --> 00:26:48,130
Speaker 1: tanker that you saw in. So there are these big

489
00:26:48,130 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: funnels and a big maritime

490
00:26:50,850 --> 00:26:54,860
Speaker 1: vessel and there will be little filters in front of

491
00:26:54,869 --> 00:26:56,230
Speaker 1: the nozzle of the

492
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,730
Speaker 2: no no no. So so there will be funnels and

493
00:26:59,730 --> 00:27:06,390
Speaker 2: then basically the the emissions are then channeled into

494
00:27:06,570 --> 00:27:11,010
Speaker 2: another scrubber. And this is essentially a small chemical factory.

495
00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:14,290
Speaker 2: It has a mean solution. So it's a basic solution

496
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:17,990
Speaker 2: and when the basic solution meets carbon dioxide which is

497
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,950
Speaker 2: acidic nature, it's going to absorb the carbon dioxide into

498
00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: the amine solution. And so then now you have a

499
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,750
Speaker 2: solution amine solution that has the carbon dioxide in it,

500
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: it then has to go somewhere else where it gets

501
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:32,449
Speaker 2: really

502
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:35,859
Speaker 2: and this separation is very energy intensive. And then once

503
00:27:35,859 --> 00:27:39,020
Speaker 2: it's separated, the amine solution is recycled and it can

504
00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:43,590
Speaker 2: capture more carbon dioxide. The captured carbon dioxide is isolated

505
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,129
Speaker 2: and then it can be either liquefied into C. 02

506
00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:51,860
Speaker 2: tanks or there are technologies that are being explored to

507
00:27:51,869 --> 00:27:56,630
Speaker 2: actually um solidify it into calcium carbonate for example, then

508
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: it's easier to transport. Um

509
00:27:58,609 --> 00:28:03,260
Speaker 2: So basically it's a recycled loop of solution that absorbs

510
00:28:03,260 --> 00:28:05,410
Speaker 2: on the one end and then D's orbs the C.

511
00:28:05,410 --> 00:28:07,530
Speaker 2: 02 on the other side, if you will.

512
00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:11,790
Speaker 1: Sure, and tankers are large. So I'm assuming space is

513
00:28:11,790 --> 00:28:14,189
Speaker 1: not going to be a huge issue, even if we

514
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:17,350
Speaker 1: were to set up these little chemical factories on top.

515
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,619
Speaker 2: Well to the contrary, space is always going to be

516
00:28:20,619 --> 00:28:23,780
Speaker 2: an issue. So in fact, I am. So this tanker

517
00:28:23,780 --> 00:28:24,619
Speaker 2: that we've identified,

518
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,370
Speaker 2: it's a standard imperil what happened to be bunkering in

519
00:28:28,369 --> 00:28:30,869
Speaker 2: the waters of Singapore. So we had a chance and

520
00:28:30,869 --> 00:28:33,390
Speaker 2: so we boarded it to look at where we would

521
00:28:33,390 --> 00:28:36,300
Speaker 2: put the C. 02 tank because we um you know,

522
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:39,620
Speaker 2: we're in the engineering design phase right now. But preliminarily

523
00:28:39,620 --> 00:28:43,140
Speaker 2: I think we've identified that we need to 300 cubic

524
00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:46,300
Speaker 2: meter C. 02 tanks to hold the C. 02 because

525
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: for every ton of fuel you burn you generate three

526
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,650
Speaker 2: tons of C. 02.

527
00:28:50,940 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: Um So there's a lot of C. 02 that needs

528
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,870
Speaker 2: to be stored onboard. And so we were looking for

529
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: space to store this and we've identified sort of space

530
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,420
Speaker 2: to be able to store this and and part of

531
00:29:00,430 --> 00:29:04,170
Speaker 2: um I mean, the tanker, so so the different ships

532
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:08,010
Speaker 2: have different space constraints. Right? I mean, so tankers still

533
00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:10,780
Speaker 2: have deck space where you can put tanks, but a

534
00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:13,950
Speaker 2: container ship, for example, does not have deck space. And

535
00:29:13,950 --> 00:29:15,510
Speaker 2: so one would have to think hard about where you

536
00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:18,570
Speaker 2: would put the tank, right? Um so I think different

537
00:29:18,570 --> 00:29:19,170
Speaker 2: segments

538
00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:24,140
Speaker 2: are going to have different challenges and therefore different solutions.

539
00:29:24,150 --> 00:29:27,330
Speaker 2: So shipping is very interesting in that way, because it's

540
00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:30,890
Speaker 2: very heterogeneous and so the solutions by nature is going

541
00:29:30,890 --> 00:29:33,130
Speaker 2: to be very heterogeneous as well, you

542
00:29:33,130 --> 00:29:35,890
Speaker 1: know, I'm just hoping and praying that among the various

543
00:29:35,890 --> 00:29:38,670
Speaker 1: listeners of this podcast, there are some budding engineers out

544
00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:41,190
Speaker 1: there who will be sort of riveted and inspired by

545
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,630
Speaker 1: all the unsolved problems in this industry and we want

546
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: to put their minds to it because this is getting

547
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,740
Speaker 1: me very excited for. Sure.

548
00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:49,500
Speaker 1: Yeah,

549
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:52,700
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm excited to, you know, I mean, maybe

550
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,140
Speaker 2: I shouldn't say this, but I will anyway, I feel

551
00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:59,770
Speaker 2: like I'm I'm I'm using more of what I learned

552
00:29:59,780 --> 00:30:03,620
Speaker 2: as a chemical engineer now than I have when I

553
00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: when I when I was teaching. Um because when I

554
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,990
Speaker 2: was teaching and doing research, I was very focused on.

555
00:30:09,150 --> 00:30:12,510
Speaker 2: Um and and my team is still currently working at Princeton, right?

556
00:30:12,510 --> 00:30:16,430
Speaker 2: We we developed solar cells and so we're very focused

557
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,050
Speaker 2: on specific fundamental questions that we're trying to answer. And

558
00:30:21,050 --> 00:30:26,100
Speaker 2: so um um it's it's not these engineering principles per se. Right?

559
00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:28,780
Speaker 2: And so so it's sort of the kinds of things

560
00:30:28,780 --> 00:30:32,090
Speaker 2: I learned as an undergrad that I'm applying um to

561
00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: to the kinds of problems that I'm seeing today in shipping.

562
00:30:35,410 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so since you mentioned solar cells and your own research,

563
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,260
Speaker 1: I have to go on a tangent and ask you,

564
00:30:40,260 --> 00:30:43,060
Speaker 1: why don't we see solar cells on top of ships?

565
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:47,670
Speaker 2: Uh Well, I mean, I think you can, and in fact,

566
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: um there was a demonstration ship called The Energy Observer

567
00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:56,790
Speaker 2: um that was here that docked here and it's basically

568
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,270
Speaker 2: a catamaran

569
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:01,790
Speaker 2: um that is zero carbon. Right? So it's got solar panels,

570
00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:05,300
Speaker 2: it's got wind sails, it's got basically an electrolyzer that

571
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:08,420
Speaker 2: produces hydrogen for at night when the wind doesn't blow in,

572
00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:10,380
Speaker 2: the solar panel can't generate

573
00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:11,430
Speaker 1: electricity.

574
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,820
Speaker 2: Um it's a catamaran, but you know, it's it's for experiments.

575
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:19,670
Speaker 2: Um and for demonstration that you can actually sail without

576
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: without

577
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,030
Speaker 2: without without fossil fuels. That said, I mean, that's a

578
00:31:25,030 --> 00:31:29,470
Speaker 2: small catamaran. Right? And so for these deep deep sea

579
00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: going ships, it's it's just very challenging. You may be

580
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,830
Speaker 2: able to put solar panels to provide some auxiliary power.

581
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,510
Speaker 2: The question is always going to be the trade off, right,

582
00:31:40,510 --> 00:31:42,070
Speaker 2: what space? And so

583
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,900
Speaker 2: surface area are you sacrificing and how much power are

584
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,380
Speaker 2: you generating? And so when you do that equation, I

585
00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:54,170
Speaker 2: think um frequently you'll find that it doesn't quite make

586
00:31:54,170 --> 00:31:58,330
Speaker 2: sense or shipping for these big ships to think about

587
00:31:58,330 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: solar panels. Um

588
00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:03,310
Speaker 1: I wanna switch the discussion a bit toward

589
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,830
Speaker 1: the taxes and levies around carbon. So what are your

590
00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:10,950
Speaker 1: thoughts on carbon taxes? Especially in Singapore is a big issue.

591
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,340
Speaker 1: You know, recent budgets have talked about progressively raising carbon

592
00:32:14,340 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: taxes in this country. We're discussing issues related to border

593
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,750
Speaker 1: adjustment tax coming out of european union. Um so in

594
00:32:20,750 --> 00:32:23,260
Speaker 1: the context of maritime and in general, where do you

595
00:32:23,260 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: stand on carbon taxes?

596
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,250
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, um at the so I should say at

597
00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:30,940
Speaker 2: the outset that, you know, G Cmd were not a

598
00:32:30,940 --> 00:32:34,570
Speaker 2: policy think tank. Right? And we we try, I mean,

599
00:32:34,580 --> 00:32:38,030
Speaker 2: um so we are technologists, so we we try to

600
00:32:38,030 --> 00:32:42,510
Speaker 2: look at solutions that said, I mean, I think it's really, really,

601
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,820
Speaker 2: really and I'll add two more really, really, really important

602
00:32:46,820 --> 00:32:48,950
Speaker 2: to have a price on carbon. Um

603
00:32:49,140 --> 00:32:52,850
Speaker 2: and and and I think the specific market based measures

604
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:57,580
Speaker 2: with which we apply a price on carbon um were

605
00:32:57,590 --> 00:33:00,810
Speaker 2: um sort of we have less of an opinion about

606
00:33:00,810 --> 00:33:03,770
Speaker 2: if you will, I think what we have an opinion

607
00:33:03,770 --> 00:33:05,700
Speaker 2: about is that it needs to be fair.

608
00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:10,010
Speaker 2: Okay. And I think um shipping has a tremendous opportunity

609
00:33:10,010 --> 00:33:14,220
Speaker 2: in this regard. Um so I join shipping because, you know,

610
00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:17,530
Speaker 2: shipping is a global industry and so it's regulated by

611
00:33:17,530 --> 00:33:21,550
Speaker 2: a single body, which means that if we can agree

612
00:33:21,550 --> 00:33:24,270
Speaker 2: on a single market based measure or if we can

613
00:33:24,270 --> 00:33:27,650
Speaker 2: agree on a set of market based measures, it can

614
00:33:27,650 --> 00:33:28,660
Speaker 2: be applied through

615
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:34,380
Speaker 2: globally. So then this doesn't create any um any distortion

616
00:33:34,380 --> 00:33:38,230
Speaker 2: to the market. It doesn't create any unlevel playing field, right?

617
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,530
Speaker 2: As opposed to electrification. And the power sector where I

618
00:33:41,530 --> 00:33:45,570
Speaker 2: came from, when I was looking at energy systems there,

619
00:33:45,580 --> 00:33:49,870
Speaker 2: it's very fragmented. Um forget about talking across state boundaries.

620
00:33:49,870 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: I mean, even regionally, you have

621
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: different um different commissioners that are working and different regulators.

622
00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: And so they're to pass a carbon policy becomes a

623
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,890
Speaker 2: little more challenging right here. I think there's a tremendous

624
00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: opportunity because shipping is a global industry. So we should

625
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,830
Speaker 2: definitely think about um um market based measure. And there's

626
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 2: tremendous conversations that are happening at the I. M. O.

627
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:14,290
Speaker 2: Now

628
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:17,589
Speaker 2: and just yesterday um in one of our trade journals,

629
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,180
Speaker 2: uh you wouldn't know this because you probably don't read

630
00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:24,890
Speaker 2: our trade journal. Um The International uh Chamber of Shipping

631
00:34:24,890 --> 00:34:29,450
Speaker 2: had announced that it submitted a proposal to to the I. M. O.

632
00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:32,790
Speaker 2: Um called the Fund and reward scheme. And so the

633
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: idea is that, you know, um ship owners are going

634
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,130
Speaker 2: to contribute

635
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:41,130
Speaker 2: um a flat amount based on the carbon emissions, their

636
00:34:41,130 --> 00:34:45,899
Speaker 2: annual carbon emissions. And this amount then gets pulled together.

637
00:34:45,910 --> 00:34:50,930
Speaker 2: And this amount can be used to incentivize first movers

638
00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:55,569
Speaker 2: by paying for the uh paying for the green fuel premium,

639
00:34:55,580 --> 00:34:59,029
Speaker 2: right? And so so I think these kinds of things

640
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,140
Speaker 2: I think can work. Um we just need to make

641
00:35:02,140 --> 00:35:05,930
Speaker 2: sure that it works across the sector, i. E globally

642
00:35:05,930 --> 00:35:09,710
Speaker 2: for shipping as opposed to sort of regionally because I

643
00:35:09,710 --> 00:35:15,010
Speaker 2: think regional patchwork type policy can really hurt the industry

644
00:35:15,010 --> 00:35:17,460
Speaker 2: because it can create unlevel playing field.

645
00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Um, Lynn earlier, several times you mentioned certain pilots

646
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,290
Speaker 1: that GCM D is doing, you know, initiatives and partnerships.

647
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:32,590
Speaker 1: Um so I think we talked a little bit about

648
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,969
Speaker 1: the ammonia bunkering study. Um and you also talked about

649
00:35:35,969 --> 00:35:39,270
Speaker 1: the sailor, wind assisted propulsion. Anything else that you know

650
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: that is taking a lot of your time these days

651
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,250
Speaker 1: in terms of initiatives and partnerships?

652
00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:47,450
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean, so we talked about the biofuels, right?

653
00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: The framework for, for supply chain integrity. We talked a

654
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,419
Speaker 2: little bit about the shipboard carbon capture. Maybe I'll take

655
00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: this opportunity to tell you about the ammonia bunkering study

656
00:35:56,090 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 2: that was done. Um I'll start by, I mean that

657
00:35:59,160 --> 00:35:59,310
Speaker 2: was

658
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: our first that was our first study. And so we

659
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,450
Speaker 2: actually commissioned that study two months into our founding, that

660
00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: was how important the study was. And we knew we

661
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,540
Speaker 2: needed to do this. And again, I mean, this is

662
00:36:11,540 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 2: with an eye on future fuel. Right? So ammonia is

663
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:20,229
Speaker 2: a future fuel. Um, ammonia is super toxic, right? It kills.

664
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,250
Speaker 2: Um and so if we were gonna use it as

665
00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:25,989
Speaker 2: a marine fuel, we need to have a good handle

666
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,310
Speaker 2: On how to manage and handle it safely. Um so

667
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:34,110
Speaker 2: if you look across the value chain for ammonia, certainly

668
00:36:34,110 --> 00:36:37,069
Speaker 2: there are people who are trying to produce ammonia at

669
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:40,770
Speaker 2: scale and that cause um and within the sector, you know,

670
00:36:40,770 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: the first engine will be built 2020 for 20, time

671
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,930
Speaker 2: frame and then the first ship will be available. And

672
00:36:46,930 --> 00:36:49,380
Speaker 2: so we asked ourselves, well, where's the gap? How can

673
00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: we

674
00:36:49,450 --> 00:36:51,730
Speaker 2: plugging the gap and what can we do to kind

675
00:36:51,730 --> 00:36:55,470
Speaker 2: of accelerate the eventual adoption of ammonia? And we identified

676
00:36:55,469 --> 00:36:58,850
Speaker 2: safety as being one of them. How do you safely bunker,

677
00:36:58,860 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: ammonia bunkers and refueling ammonia. So the idea of moving

678
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: molecules around safely um and so we said, we said

679
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: we were going to do an ammonia bunkering pilot um

680
00:37:10,050 --> 00:37:13,010
Speaker 2: and then we quickly realized, oh we can't actually do

681
00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: an ammonia bunkering pilot because there are no safety guidelines.

682
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 2: And if there are no safety guidelines we can't

683
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,450
Speaker 2: generate a regulatory sandbox to do the ammonia bunkering pilot.

684
00:37:22,450 --> 00:37:24,710
Speaker 2: So we took a step back and we said, okay,

685
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: we'll do what commission a safety study and so that's

686
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,310
Speaker 2: what the safety studies about its to identify the, you know,

687
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,060
Speaker 2: um and define the envelopes, the safety envelope, the operational

688
00:37:35,070 --> 00:37:39,370
Speaker 2: envelopes um so that we can do a bunkering pilot

689
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:43,780
Speaker 2: um buried in there is also a competency framework development

690
00:37:43,790 --> 00:37:45,129
Speaker 2: because um

691
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:48,170
Speaker 2: it's not enough to just come up with the safety guidelines.

692
00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:51,150
Speaker 2: Um you need to train the seafarers so that they

693
00:37:51,150 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: can handle ammonia safely. And so the competency framework is

694
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: buried in there as well. Um so I'm happy to

695
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,150
Speaker 2: report the study is on track, so it will be

696
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:04,390
Speaker 2: done by the end of the year and then we

697
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:05,730
Speaker 2: would be ready to share

698
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:08,470
Speaker 2: beginning of next year and so we're in the process

699
00:38:08,469 --> 00:38:11,870
Speaker 2: of scoping what that pilot would look like and how

700
00:38:11,870 --> 00:38:15,410
Speaker 2: we can use these guidelines um with the help of

701
00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:18,450
Speaker 2: the regulatory authorities of course and they would have to

702
00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:23,670
Speaker 2: eventually approve and ultimately approve uh the guidelines and then

703
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,170
Speaker 2: approve a sandbox for us to do this pilot.

704
00:38:26,330 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: Um so so again, it's it's it's demonstrating how we

705
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,430
Speaker 2: can safely move the molecules around because um it's with that,

706
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,330
Speaker 2: that I think bunkering can happen. Right. Um so

707
00:38:38,340 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: great stuff. Well, good luck with that. Well, we'll look

708
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,790
Speaker 1: forward to the announcement toward the end of this year,

709
00:38:43,790 --> 00:38:49,629
Speaker 1: early next year. Yeah, absolutely. Um you mentioned earlier about

710
00:38:49,630 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: Scandinavian countries being fairly progressive in some of the frontier

711
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,420
Speaker 1: issues really to carbon capture and

712
00:38:55,620 --> 00:39:01,530
Speaker 1: sequestration beyond that. I mean, which countries are the leading

713
00:39:01,530 --> 00:39:04,230
Speaker 1: beacons right now in maritime de conversation?

714
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,260
Speaker 2: Um Well, I mean, I think I'd be remiss if

715
00:39:07,260 --> 00:39:10,180
Speaker 2: I didn't mention Singapore. Right? I think, look, I mean

716
00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:13,620
Speaker 2: we were set up in record time from the time

717
00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:17,029
Speaker 2: that we were, you know that the recommendation was put

718
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:19,020
Speaker 2: forth to the Singapore government to the time we were

719
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:21,390
Speaker 2: set up was a matter of four months, right? I

720
00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:22,940
Speaker 2: mean it's incredible how so

721
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:29,250
Speaker 2: supportive the ecosystem here is and how um how focused

722
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:32,980
Speaker 2: we are on the decarbonization agenda and and I mean

723
00:39:32,980 --> 00:39:37,170
Speaker 2: I think um this is to be expected because Singapore

724
00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:41,219
Speaker 2: is such an important maritime hub, so um

725
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: I'll give you a couple of stats, I bet you

726
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,210
Speaker 2: didn't know this. So Singapore is a bunkering hub, bunkered

727
00:39:47,219 --> 00:39:51,180
Speaker 2: more than 50 million tons of fuel last year and

728
00:39:51,180 --> 00:39:57,140
Speaker 2: global bunkering is about 250 million tons. Yeah, it's bunkering

729
00:39:57,140 --> 00:40:01,190
Speaker 2: volume in. Singapore is greater than the bunkering volumes of

730
00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:04,290
Speaker 2: the next nine largest bunkering hubs combined,

731
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,330
Speaker 2: That's how much Singapore bunkers and um ships today, um

732
00:40:09,340 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: irrespective of where they go, they generally bunker at more

733
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,300
Speaker 2: than 50% of the ship's bunker only at one port.

734
00:40:17,310 --> 00:40:20,890
Speaker 2: So Singapore sees lots of ships, meaning that if Singapore

735
00:40:20,890 --> 00:40:25,090
Speaker 2: can figure out how to decarbonization shipping here, it's gonna

736
00:40:25,090 --> 00:40:26,790
Speaker 2: have a huge impact

737
00:40:26,930 --> 00:40:30,780
Speaker 2: on the maritime sector. Right? And that's why Singapore is

738
00:40:30,780 --> 00:40:35,580
Speaker 2: looking at a multi fuel future, it needs to be

739
00:40:35,580 --> 00:40:39,669
Speaker 2: ready with different kinds of fuels because we've just said that,

740
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,660
Speaker 2: you know with different ships and different segments of ship,

741
00:40:41,660 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: different size of ships, they're gonna need different kinds of fuels,

742
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,620
Speaker 2: they have different solutions. So, so, so I think it's

743
00:40:47,620 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: important um to to sort of look ahead that way. So,

744
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 2: so I think, I mean Singapore is very, very progressive

745
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: in that sense. And of course

746
00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:58,150
Speaker 2: the M. P. A. Had just launched the maritime blueprint.

747
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,420
Speaker 2: Um and so it talks about different measures of how

748
00:41:01,430 --> 00:41:04,410
Speaker 2: it's gonna dick carbonized both on the portside on the

749
00:41:04,420 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: infrastructure side and and then of course on the ship's

750
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: side of things. Um so we mentioned Norway, um you know,

751
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 2: it's got green coastal shipping programs, it's got lots of

752
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,390
Speaker 2: pilots going. Um they are a very good partner of

753
00:41:17,390 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: ours in terms of, you know, looking at shipping and decarbonization, shipping.

754
00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:25,930
Speaker 2: Um uh the M. P. A. Here had just signed

755
00:41:25,930 --> 00:41:29,590
Speaker 2: a green corridor agreement with the port of Rotterdam. So

756
00:41:29,590 --> 00:41:32,810
Speaker 2: Netherlands is another place to look to a port of

757
00:41:32,810 --> 00:41:35,660
Speaker 2: Rotterdam is another big and important ports. And so this

758
00:41:35,660 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: green corridors idea is again to to harmonize standards at

759
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,670
Speaker 2: both ports to be able to incentivize and and kind

760
00:41:44,670 --> 00:41:44,850
Speaker 2: of

761
00:41:44,860 --> 00:41:50,270
Speaker 2: accelerate decarbonization between for for ships that sail between these

762
00:41:50,270 --> 00:41:53,210
Speaker 2: two ports. Right? And then finally I would say Japan,

763
00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:55,250
Speaker 2: I think Japan, you know, has done a lot of

764
00:41:55,250 --> 00:41:59,250
Speaker 2: trials to look at different bringing in different hydrogen carriers,

765
00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:02,169
Speaker 2: both for their power sector and for the shipping sector.

766
00:42:02,180 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 2: Um and so they are very progressive in that sense

767
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,430
Speaker 2: as well. And um there are

768
00:42:07,540 --> 00:42:09,419
Speaker 2: my opinion, there are lots of learnings to be had

769
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:12,620
Speaker 2: um and sharing to be had with Singapore because like

770
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 2: with Japan, sorry, because like Singapore, Japan has very little

771
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,750
Speaker 2: natural resources. Right. Um so if we, as we move

772
00:42:20,750 --> 00:42:25,170
Speaker 2: to a renewable energy economy, like we need to import

773
00:42:25,180 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: our energy. And so how do we think about this?

774
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,430
Speaker 2: So there are lots of, I think exchanges that can

775
00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:31,270
Speaker 2: be had, you

776
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,030
Speaker 1: did not mention the U. S. Or china?

777
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: Um Well, I mean um the U. S. Is not

778
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,730
Speaker 2: a big player in shipping. Um um and so I

779
00:42:41,730 --> 00:42:44,910
Speaker 2: think from a from a sectorial perspective, I didn't mention

780
00:42:44,910 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: us because it's not a friend shipping.

781
00:42:47,290 --> 00:42:52,790
Speaker 2: Um and and um china certainly has uh is building

782
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:55,420
Speaker 2: its fair share of ships. And so I think in

783
00:42:55,420 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: that sense, I think um working with the shipyards is

784
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,580
Speaker 2: very important because they are the ones that are gonna

785
00:43:01,580 --> 00:43:07,950
Speaker 2: be responsible for putting on retrofit, uh technologies hardware on

786
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: on the ships, they're gonna be the ones that are

787
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,629
Speaker 2: going to install new engines on the ships. Right? And

788
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: so I think in that sense they're important too

789
00:43:16,130 --> 00:43:18,730
Speaker 1: Sure because you know, at the very beginning of the podcast,

790
00:43:18,730 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: you said that, you know, 90% of global trade is

791
00:43:21,969 --> 00:43:25,779
Speaker 1: on on the waters and I think of China, you know,

792
00:43:25,790 --> 00:43:28,330
Speaker 1: the largest exporter in the world, but I suppose it

793
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:30,860
Speaker 1: also depends on, you know, who actually owns that shipping

794
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:33,860
Speaker 1: line and where the sort of the responsibility of the

795
00:43:33,860 --> 00:43:37,540
Speaker 1: regulatory uh sort of the window goes in.

796
00:43:37,739 --> 00:43:41,370
Speaker 1: Um so, so yeah, I suppose, you know, countries like Singapore,

797
00:43:41,370 --> 00:43:42,980
Speaker 1: you know, which are big entre ports, you know, it

798
00:43:42,980 --> 00:43:45,570
Speaker 1: makes sense for them to take the lead into, so

799
00:43:45,570 --> 00:43:49,860
Speaker 1: to speak. Um Lynn in a recent interview, you were

800
00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 1: talking about the CMD and you said something to the

801
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,260
Speaker 1: extent that you know, you've got a role to play

802
00:43:54,260 --> 00:43:56,420
Speaker 1: but not just in providing funds but also in providing

803
00:43:56,420 --> 00:44:00,589
Speaker 1: value adds. So curious about this this role of G. C. M. D.

804
00:44:00,590 --> 00:44:03,100
Speaker 1: As a neutral convener of sorts.

805
00:44:03,110 --> 00:44:06,810
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean um

806
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:13,420
Speaker 2: yes. So I'll come back to the ammonia bunkering study

807
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: um to illustrate this. So with the ammonia bunkering study

808
00:44:17,969 --> 00:44:20,509
Speaker 2: um Typically when one does a study like this, it

809
00:44:20,510 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: takes a couple of years to get a safety study done.

810
00:44:23,530 --> 00:44:28,299
Speaker 2: Um because one typically does it serially meaning that one

811
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:32,890
Speaker 2: does the study then consults with industry to kind of

812
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:35,980
Speaker 2: refine the study. When the study is done, you submitted

813
00:44:35,980 --> 00:44:38,989
Speaker 2: to the regulatory authorities who then kind of say, well

814
00:44:38,989 --> 00:44:41,890
Speaker 2: you're deficient in this, this this and this go back

815
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:43,259
Speaker 2: and do more

816
00:44:43,450 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: And that iterated process takes a couple of years. We

817
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: didn't want to wait a couple of years because we

818
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,219
Speaker 2: don't have time to wait. And frankly, I'm impatient. Um

819
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:55,310
Speaker 2: so what we did was we were pretty heavy handed

820
00:44:55,310 --> 00:45:00,370
Speaker 2: about this study, we assembled at the get go 22

821
00:45:00,370 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: industry partners across the supply chain.

822
00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:09,350
Speaker 2: And we when we um selected after technical evaluation D.

823
00:45:09,350 --> 00:45:13,050
Speaker 2: N VSERv wrong and Singapore Maritime Academy to do the study,

824
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:17,089
Speaker 2: we told the trio that they needed to work with

825
00:45:17,090 --> 00:45:20,850
Speaker 2: these 22 partners that these 22 partners have experience dealing

826
00:45:20,850 --> 00:45:24,069
Speaker 2: with ammonia, They have knowledge they need to work with them.

827
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,549
Speaker 2: And then alongside, we worked with M. P. A. And

828
00:45:27,550 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: had mph help us set up a regulatory working group.

829
00:45:32,110 --> 00:45:35,750
Speaker 2: Um and so these discussions are happening in parallel and

830
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:39,030
Speaker 2: the consultations are happening in parallel so everybody has kept

831
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:42,940
Speaker 2: abreast of the progress. Okay? So that if there's anything

832
00:45:42,940 --> 00:45:45,670
Speaker 2: deficient that we need to address or there's any concerns

833
00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: from a regulatory standpoint, we address it at the get go.

834
00:45:49,090 --> 00:45:51,540
Speaker 2: And so by doing so we've been able to kind

835
00:45:51,540 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: of shorten the study down to about eight months. Um

836
00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:57,230
Speaker 2: and we're hopeful, I mean at the end of the

837
00:45:57,230 --> 00:45:59,380
Speaker 2: day it still needs to be approved but we're hopeful

838
00:45:59,380 --> 00:46:01,540
Speaker 2: that it would be approved relatively quickly

839
00:46:01,820 --> 00:46:04,509
Speaker 2: um for that reason. Right. And so this is sort

840
00:46:04,510 --> 00:46:07,270
Speaker 2: of how we can value add as a neutral convener,

841
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,260
Speaker 2: we can bring people um both from the private sector

842
00:46:11,260 --> 00:46:14,890
Speaker 2: and then the public sector together um we can convene

843
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:18,490
Speaker 2: um we can bring nominally competitors together to work together

844
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: um in another example. So um so in in in

845
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,590
Speaker 2: the biofuels trial, I mean we brought

846
00:46:24,820 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: 13 vessel owners and charters together to work together on

847
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: this pilot. Right? Um so so again, I think where

848
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:37,310
Speaker 2: we value add is where there's tremendous complexity when it's

849
00:46:37,310 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 2: simply to pilot a single solution by putting it on

850
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,610
Speaker 2: board ship and it's sort of a one player, one solution,

851
00:46:45,610 --> 00:46:48,820
Speaker 2: one solution provider, one player type thing. I think

852
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,150
Speaker 2: there are lots of other players that can add value

853
00:46:52,150 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 2: that way, but we can add value where there's tremendous

854
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,910
Speaker 2: complexity and where there's a lot of stakeholders because we

855
00:46:59,910 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: can bring people together and we can provide the transparency

856
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,770
Speaker 2: where the transparency is needed uh to move,

857
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:08,430
Speaker 2: does that make sense?

858
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,330
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think this is an important role for you

859
00:47:11,330 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: to play in addition to just, you know, funding pilots,

860
00:47:14,380 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: but it helps, you know, results on these complexities and

861
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,810
Speaker 1: knotty issues around that. But Lynne the other big constraint

862
00:47:22,820 --> 00:47:23,930
Speaker 1: is funding

863
00:47:24,260 --> 00:47:27,430
Speaker 1: uh you know, green financing. So as you know, we

864
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: have dbs are, you know, very big champions of green

865
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,089
Speaker 1: financing and green loans um but I don't think, you know,

866
00:47:34,090 --> 00:47:37,460
Speaker 1: the financial system has solved this issue yet. So tell

867
00:47:37,460 --> 00:47:39,850
Speaker 1: me a little bit about your experience and sourcing green

868
00:47:39,850 --> 00:47:42,580
Speaker 1: financing from both the bank and non bank sectors.

869
00:47:42,910 --> 00:47:46,710
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well just to put things in perspective to

870
00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:49,790
Speaker 2: Dick carbonized shipping, the number that's been thrown around is

871
00:47:49,790 --> 00:47:53,670
Speaker 2: you need $3 trillion.80 percent of the $3 trillion is

872
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:56,250
Speaker 2: going to be spent on land infrastructure. Right. So, so

873
00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: think about it to Dick carbonized shipping, you need to

874
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: spend money on land infrastructure right there in itself is

875
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,730
Speaker 2: already a hard problem because the money actually flows out

876
00:48:06,730 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 2: of the sector.

877
00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 2: Um, and then of course this land infrastructure, well, what

878
00:48:10,930 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: are they, they would be storage terminals for new fuels,

879
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,390
Speaker 2: they would be, you know, bunker facilities for new fuel, etcetera, etcetera. Um,

880
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,620
Speaker 2: and so these are first of a kind projects and

881
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:25,609
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've heard plenty because I've certainly heard plenty.

882
00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: These are not bankable. These are not bankable. So there's

883
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,089
Speaker 2: plenty of climate action money out there, but they're really

884
00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:36,219
Speaker 2: for things like solar projects, wind projects. But these first

885
00:48:36,219 --> 00:48:39,540
Speaker 2: of a kind projects, it's really hard because they are

886
00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:45,290
Speaker 2: not bankable. So, um, we're thinking hard about how, you know, um,

887
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:46,620
Speaker 2: we can distribute risk

888
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,830
Speaker 2: with organizations that can best tolerate these different kinds of risks. Right?

889
00:48:50,830 --> 00:48:52,870
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, GCM B has a special

890
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: role to play here because we can help the risk technology,

891
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,170
Speaker 2: we can help lower the risk on the operations side

892
00:49:00,170 --> 00:49:02,969
Speaker 2: of things. We can even open dialogue with regulators. So

893
00:49:02,969 --> 00:49:07,270
Speaker 2: to lower regulatory or policy risk to, um, and then

894
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,690
Speaker 2: is there an opportunity to crowd in monies from different

895
00:49:10,690 --> 00:49:14,660
Speaker 2: sources with different tolerance of risk to,

896
00:49:14,670 --> 00:49:17,739
Speaker 2: to be able to start moving on these kinds of projects. Right.

897
00:49:17,739 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 2: And G CMd is fortunate in that we have a

898
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 2: small war chest that we can also put money in,

899
00:49:22,890 --> 00:49:26,190
Speaker 2: but let's face it compared to these numbers that we're

900
00:49:26,190 --> 00:49:29,390
Speaker 2: talking about GCM these money is chump change, Right? And

901
00:49:29,390 --> 00:49:32,009
Speaker 2: so we need to see how we can crowd in

902
00:49:32,010 --> 00:49:34,770
Speaker 2: this money and and what it means again to do

903
00:49:34,770 --> 00:49:37,340
Speaker 2: things in the 30 years that we want to do

904
00:49:37,340 --> 00:49:41,170
Speaker 2: things in. It's really, we can't afford to wait to

905
00:49:41,170 --> 00:49:42,689
Speaker 2: do things sequentially. We need,

906
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:46,589
Speaker 2: we need to be able to invest in fuel production

907
00:49:46,590 --> 00:49:50,339
Speaker 2: facility before they're off takers. We need to invest in

908
00:49:50,340 --> 00:49:54,109
Speaker 2: zero carbon emission ship before fuel production is at scale.

909
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,529
Speaker 2: I mean, these things just need to happen in parallel.

910
00:49:56,530 --> 00:49:59,770
Speaker 2: And so um folks like you need to help us

911
00:49:59,770 --> 00:50:01,959
Speaker 2: think about how to do this. I mean, I know

912
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: nothing about finance. I just know that we need to

913
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,090
Speaker 2: kind of mobilize these so that we can crowd in

914
00:50:08,090 --> 00:50:10,750
Speaker 2: the resources to be able to get going quickly.

915
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, I don't think finance has solved

916
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,990
Speaker 1: this yet. It's another of those, you know, big issues

917
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,029
Speaker 1: and in terms of risk underwriting or public private partnership,

918
00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:25,380
Speaker 1: uh and the cost of capital associated with these things

919
00:50:25,380 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: as well as the risk mitigation, it's, it's a big area,

920
00:50:27,890 --> 00:50:30,500
Speaker 1: we will have to revisit this in a couple of

921
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:32,989
Speaker 1: years timeline to see, you know, whether my part of

922
00:50:32,989 --> 00:50:35,780
Speaker 1: the industry is being a good partner to your part

923
00:50:35,780 --> 00:50:39,450
Speaker 1: of the industry in pushing this forward um lin you

924
00:50:39,450 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: used the phrase multi fuel future earlier.

925
00:50:43,540 --> 00:50:46,250
Speaker 1: Um I think having talked about a bunch of, you know,

926
00:50:46,250 --> 00:50:50,469
Speaker 1: sort of narrowly defined points earlier, maybe as a final

927
00:50:50,469 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: question for this podcast you just lay out for me,

928
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,700
Speaker 1: let's say the 2030 vision that you have for a

929
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:56,890
Speaker 1: multi-fuel future.

930
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: 2030 is hard man because I think a lot of

931
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,989
Speaker 2: these um I think a lot of these green fuels

932
00:51:06,989 --> 00:51:10,740
Speaker 2: aren't going to be available at scale to us until

933
00:51:10,739 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: about mid 20 thirties. So I suspect um there's still

934
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: gonna be a lot of um a lot of ships

935
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,460
Speaker 2: running on fossil. Um And I think to the extent

936
00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:23,419
Speaker 2: possible we should look at um

937
00:51:23,590 --> 00:51:27,690
Speaker 2: you know um where we can do biofuels um where

938
00:51:27,690 --> 00:51:31,460
Speaker 2: we can again do L. N. G. Responsibly. One of

939
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:34,629
Speaker 2: the things we're looking at is L. P. G. Um

940
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,469
Speaker 2: um and that lowers carbon emissions too and doesn't deal

941
00:51:38,469 --> 00:51:41,830
Speaker 2: with methane slip. So could that be an opportunity? So

942
00:51:41,830 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: that's something that we're still kind of trying to understand

943
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:45,540
Speaker 2: and wrap our heads around.

944
00:51:45,810 --> 00:51:49,830
Speaker 2: Um and then um to the extent that green fuels

945
00:51:49,830 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: are available, I mean if you look at these reports

946
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 2: they basically say in order for us to hit Paris targets.

947
00:51:55,370 --> 00:51:59,070
Speaker 2: So net zero by 2050 you need to have 5%

948
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,750
Speaker 2: of the fuels being green fuels by 2030. And so

949
00:52:02,750 --> 00:52:06,070
Speaker 2: we need to crowd in that 5% green fuels uh

950
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,859
Speaker 2: to get going on this. So um yeah um it's challenging.

951
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,350
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you are sort of you know

952
00:52:14,350 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 1: waited in reality that you see that, you know, just

953
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,350
Speaker 1: because I gave you this eight year, you know, window

954
00:52:20,350 --> 00:52:23,230
Speaker 1: to sort of expand the vision that everything's gonna work out,

955
00:52:23,230 --> 00:52:25,219
Speaker 1: but you're being very, very realistic and I appreciate that

956
00:52:25,219 --> 00:52:29,670
Speaker 1: very much these are, you know, generational existential issues, but

957
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,859
Speaker 1: we have so much work to do in in cracking

958
00:52:32,860 --> 00:52:35,660
Speaker 1: the code. Um, lin liu thank you so much for

959
00:52:35,660 --> 00:52:36,779
Speaker 1: your time and insights,

960
00:52:38,710 --> 00:52:41,169
Speaker 2: thank you for having me again. I mean I think I'll,

961
00:52:41,170 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 2: and by saying that you know, it's, it's really important

962
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: to be grounded and understand what what is happening on

963
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,940
Speaker 2: the ground and how fast we can move. But that's

964
00:52:49,940 --> 00:52:52,060
Speaker 2: not to be despondent. Right? I think we need to

965
00:52:52,060 --> 00:52:54,730
Speaker 2: roll up our sleeves and get going and we need

966
00:52:54,730 --> 00:52:56,739
Speaker 2: to double down is what it comes down to.

967
00:52:56,989 --> 00:52:59,020
Speaker 2: Thanks again, absolutely

968
00:52:59,020 --> 00:53:02,219
Speaker 1: appreciate your call to action. I also thank our listeners

969
00:53:02,219 --> 00:53:04,819
Speaker 1: for listening to this very interesting episode of copy time

970
00:53:04,830 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 1: podcast was produced by Kendall bridge from Spice studios, Jz

971
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: Sharma and violently provided additional production assistance, copay time is

972
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,330
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973
00:53:14,350 --> 00:53:18,330
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974
00:53:18,330 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: are available on Youtube and on all major podcast platforms

975
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,670
Speaker 1: including apple google and Spotify as for our research publications,

976
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:27,790
Speaker 1: webinars and live streams, you can find them all by

977
00:53:27,790 --> 00:53:31,720
Speaker 1: googling DBS research library, have a great day