1 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,070 Speaker 1: Hello. You're listening to Kobe time, a podcast series on 2 00:00:10,070 --> 00:00:13,010 Speaker 1: markets and economies from devious group research. I'm Tamera Beck 3 00:00:13,010 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: chief economist. Welcome to our 82nd episode. 4 00:00:17,230 --> 00:00:20,099 Speaker 1: Today I'll start on a personal note. My friend as 5 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: motif does policy advocacy work for SDG two. Now you 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: may wonder what that entails. Well, S. D. G two 7 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:30,990 Speaker 1: is number two on the U. N. Sustainable development goals 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,810 Speaker 1: simply stated it is zero hunger end hunger, achieve food 9 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:40,099 Speaker 1: security and improved nutrition and promote sustainable agriculture. Well easier 10 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:42,420 Speaker 1: said than done as we have seen over the last 11 00:00:42,433 --> 00:00:47,003 Speaker 1: year or so, that what was considered a topic largely 12 00:00:47,003 --> 00:00:50,213 Speaker 1: confined to very poor countries now is becoming a source 13 00:00:50,213 --> 00:00:53,633 Speaker 1: of global concern both from a short and long term perspective. 14 00:00:53,643 --> 00:00:55,603 Speaker 1: So I've been asking my friend Asthma that you know, 15 00:00:55,613 --> 00:00:57,183 Speaker 1: who should I talk to if I want to get 16 00:00:57,183 --> 00:01:01,413 Speaker 1: a global sweep of of this issue. Somebody who's comfortable 17 00:01:01,413 --> 00:01:04,543 Speaker 1: talking about the science as well as the politics and 18 00:01:04,543 --> 00:01:07,619 Speaker 1: economics of food insecurity and he should suggest that 19 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:10,166 Speaker 1: today's guests. So I'm very pleased to have with us. 20 00:01:10,176 --> 00:01:13,786 Speaker 1: Karen smaller. She is the executive director of the Schomburg 21 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:17,556 Speaker 1: Center for Food and Climate. Karen was co director and 22 00:01:17,556 --> 00:01:21,766 Speaker 1: co author of Serious to 2030 a major initiative that 23 00:01:21,766 --> 00:01:24,466 Speaker 1: we'll talk about in detail during the podcast. She is 24 00:01:24,465 --> 00:01:27,216 Speaker 1: also the author of the guide to negotiating investment contracts 25 00:01:27,215 --> 00:01:30,796 Speaker 1: for farmland and water published by the International Institute for 26 00:01:30,796 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: Sustainable Development or I I. S. D. 27 00:01:33,020 --> 00:01:36,420 Speaker 1: And this guide sort of marks the first attempt at 28 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:40,250 Speaker 1: a model contract for developing countries to attract foreign investment 29 00:01:40,250 --> 00:01:44,490 Speaker 1: for agriculture while reducing poverty and protecting the environment. And 30 00:01:44,490 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: that's one issue that I want to pick Karen's brain, 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,070 Speaker 1: both the intersection or the intersection of climate change and 32 00:01:51,070 --> 00:01:52,090 Speaker 1: food insecurity. 33 00:01:52,250 --> 00:01:56,270 Speaker 1: Karen in her past professional engagement was the Director of Agriculture, 34 00:01:56,270 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: Trade and Investment at I. S. D. As well as 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,010 Speaker 1: director of the Trade Information project at the Institute of 36 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:06,380 Speaker 1: Agriculture and Trade Policy I 80 p. Karen smaller. Welcome 37 00:02:06,380 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: to Covid Time. 38 00:02:07,470 --> 00:02:09,690 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. 39 00:02:10,050 --> 00:02:12,590 Speaker 1: It's great to have you. I want to start with 40 00:02:12,590 --> 00:02:15,690 Speaker 1: the very latest on your side. You're the executive director 41 00:02:15,690 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: of the Schomburg Center for Food and Climate. What is 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: the center's mission objective and what is your role in it? 43 00:02:22,150 --> 00:02:26,900 Speaker 2: Thank you. So um our vision at the samba center 44 00:02:26,910 --> 00:02:32,100 Speaker 2: is quite simple but ambitious. It's a world without hunger 45 00:02:32,110 --> 00:02:34,540 Speaker 2: achieved sustainably 46 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:43,220 Speaker 2: and through empowering poor producers, informal traders and small businesses. 47 00:02:44,590 --> 00:02:47,769 Speaker 2: How do we do this? We do this by basically 48 00:02:47,770 --> 00:02:52,060 Speaker 2: influencing those with power to do more and to do 49 00:02:52,060 --> 00:02:52,780 Speaker 2: it better. 50 00:02:53,820 --> 00:02:57,329 Speaker 2: So we try to convince world leaders, business leaders and 51 00:02:57,330 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: philanthropists to act and I'm actually one of three co 52 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: founders of the samba center. And as you as you 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: articulated my role is as the executive director 54 00:03:09,930 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: and when you say that you engage philanthropists and governments. 55 00:03:14,570 --> 00:03:18,230 Speaker 1: Um so give us a few ideas of you know 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: how you want to pursue this or I'm sure you've 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,389 Speaker 1: done this in your previous jobs as well. But just 58 00:03:23,389 --> 00:03:24,669 Speaker 1: give us a sense of, you know, how does an 59 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,579 Speaker 1: advocate running a center like this engage on a day 60 00:03:27,580 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: to day basis? 61 00:03:29,530 --> 00:03:33,820 Speaker 2: So we try and reach those with the most power, 62 00:03:33,830 --> 00:03:38,750 Speaker 2: which means we're trying to aim for ministers, politicians were 63 00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:40,860 Speaker 2: trying to aim for C. E. O. S and we're 64 00:03:40,860 --> 00:03:43,980 Speaker 2: telling them this is what needs to happen to achieve 65 00:03:43,980 --> 00:03:47,070 Speaker 2: world hunger and to do it sustainably. This is how 66 00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:49,330 Speaker 2: you can do it. So I'm going to maybe tell 67 00:03:49,330 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: you a bit about it later but we have a 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 2: great initiative called the zero hunger private sector pledge 69 00:03:55,980 --> 00:04:01,340 Speaker 2: where we ask companies to make financial commitments to end hunger. 70 00:04:01,970 --> 00:04:05,270 Speaker 2: And we have a menu of 10 high impact areas 71 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: that have been defined by science through this Sara's 2030 72 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,090 Speaker 2: project that you mentioned at the introduction 73 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,460 Speaker 2: and we asked them to make investments in those 10 74 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:18,890 Speaker 2: areas that are backed by the scientific evidence and in 75 00:04:18,890 --> 00:04:22,940 Speaker 2: the 90 odd countries that we've identified are the highest 76 00:04:22,940 --> 00:04:27,270 Speaker 2: priority countries to try and solve this issue of world hunger. 77 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:31,030 Speaker 1: Great. So yeah, we will talk in great detail about 78 00:04:31,029 --> 00:04:33,890 Speaker 1: the science that's sort of trying to come up with 79 00:04:33,890 --> 00:04:36,610 Speaker 1: solutions as well as diagnosing the problem and the issue 80 00:04:36,610 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: of costing and I've seen some of your YouTube presentation. 81 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,710 Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to talk about that. But first, 82 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,089 Speaker 1: Karen the here and now let's talk about the state 83 00:04:46,089 --> 00:04:49,100 Speaker 1: of food security and security world war right now, how 84 00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:51,700 Speaker 1: worried should we be about the rest of this year? 85 00:04:51,710 --> 00:04:55,140 Speaker 1: As well as 2023, we both respected the price of 86 00:04:55,140 --> 00:04:57,060 Speaker 1: food and availability of food. 87 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: So unfortunately we have to we should be worried. We 88 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,469 Speaker 2: should be very worried. So whilst you may have seen 89 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:11,850 Speaker 2: prices for wheat and corn easing off a bit in 90 00:05:11,850 --> 00:05:15,810 Speaker 2: the last few weeks and this was definitely helped by 91 00:05:15,810 --> 00:05:20,969 Speaker 2: the Ukraine Russia grain agreement that Turkey and the U. N. Brokered. 92 00:05:20,980 --> 00:05:25,140 Speaker 2: So whilst definitely we see prices easing off compared to 93 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:27,670 Speaker 2: what we were seeing in March and april, 94 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,820 Speaker 2: we're not out of the dark, we're not out of 95 00:05:30,820 --> 00:05:36,490 Speaker 2: the woods. This crisis is not just about grain prices 96 00:05:36,490 --> 00:05:42,059 Speaker 2: and availability of grains and it predates the war in Ukraine. 97 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: This crisis, this food security crisis that we currently have 98 00:05:47,089 --> 00:05:53,370 Speaker 2: is also about fertilizers, fertilizer prices, and fertilizer availability. It's 99 00:05:53,370 --> 00:05:57,770 Speaker 2: very much about energy prices and energy availability and it's 100 00:05:57,770 --> 00:06:03,210 Speaker 2: about access to finance. So all these things, food fertilizers, 101 00:06:03,220 --> 00:06:05,130 Speaker 2: energy and finance 102 00:06:05,870 --> 00:06:11,450 Speaker 2: are currently too expensive for poor countries and poor producers 103 00:06:11,450 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: to afford. 104 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 2: So that basically means that fertilizers are either not being 105 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: applied on farms or being applied sparingly. 106 00:06:20,890 --> 00:06:23,690 Speaker 2: And that means that the next harvest there's not gonna 107 00:06:23,690 --> 00:06:26,890 Speaker 2: be as much food produced as the last harvest. 108 00:06:28,029 --> 00:06:31,540 Speaker 2: The high energy prices means that even where food is 109 00:06:31,540 --> 00:06:35,650 Speaker 2: being produced, they're less likely to leave the farm because 110 00:06:35,650 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: the farmers not willing to pay the high energy prices 111 00:06:38,730 --> 00:06:42,779 Speaker 2: and the traders, the informal traders and the smes who 112 00:06:42,779 --> 00:06:48,350 Speaker 2: are transporting these, this produce to market can't afford to 113 00:06:48,350 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: do it at the same price. 114 00:06:51,140 --> 00:06:54,110 Speaker 2: Um So this issue of transport means we're gonna have 115 00:06:54,110 --> 00:06:57,090 Speaker 2: food not leaving the farm or less food leaving the 116 00:06:57,089 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: farm and less transport, 117 00:06:59,550 --> 00:07:02,450 Speaker 2: this is going to mean higher chance for the food 118 00:07:02,450 --> 00:07:05,890 Speaker 2: to be wasted or rotting or just not leaving at all. 119 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,750 Speaker 2: And then there's this finance crisis. Um and I mean, 120 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,610 Speaker 2: we obviously see it most starkly in the case of 121 00:07:14,610 --> 00:07:18,310 Speaker 2: sri Lanka with the debt crisis, but it's not just 122 00:07:18,310 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: about sri Lanka and countries, it's about farmers being in debt, 123 00:07:21,690 --> 00:07:23,500 Speaker 2: it's about countries being in debt, 124 00:07:23,710 --> 00:07:26,740 Speaker 2: It's about debt levels all over the world out of 125 00:07:26,740 --> 00:07:31,790 Speaker 2: control in so many low and middle-income countries and it's 126 00:07:31,790 --> 00:07:35,410 Speaker 2: this vicious circle, that means we have to be really, 127 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:40,820 Speaker 2: really worried for now. And into 2030, just a small example, 128 00:07:40,830 --> 00:07:43,420 Speaker 2: the farmers that are currently in debt and we see 129 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: a lot of those Ukrainian farmers who've been trying to 130 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,710 Speaker 2: get their grains shipped out of Ukraine, heavily indebted 131 00:07:50,270 --> 00:07:54,390 Speaker 2: if they can't get those grains out either through land 132 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: or through the Black Sea, 133 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,390 Speaker 2: They're not going to be able to plant next harvest 134 00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:02,710 Speaker 2: next season, and then this crisis is going to go 135 00:08:02,710 --> 00:08:04,410 Speaker 2: through into 2023. 136 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:09,350 Speaker 1: Alright, that's a, you know sobering set of thoughts and 137 00:08:09,350 --> 00:08:10,980 Speaker 1: I have a few follow ups on that care. And 138 00:08:10,980 --> 00:08:15,350 Speaker 1: so before we go into the low and low income countries, 139 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:17,310 Speaker 1: I want to talk about at least one middle income 140 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:20,290 Speaker 1: country which is china and the other is the other 141 00:08:20,290 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: big chunk of population in the world is India. So 142 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:24,730 Speaker 1: India of course plays a role in both 143 00:08:24,745 --> 00:08:29,715 Speaker 1: Exporting and to some extent importing food material, China hugely 144 00:08:29,715 --> 00:08:32,755 Speaker 1: reliant on the US for Soybean. And also I guess 145 00:08:32,765 --> 00:08:35,775 Speaker 1: Latin America. So let's start with China and India, what's 146 00:08:35,775 --> 00:08:38,475 Speaker 1: your sense of these two countries? Both with respect to 147 00:08:38,485 --> 00:08:43,464 Speaker 1: harvest and stockpile and and the outlook for 2022 and 2023. 148 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,150 Speaker 2: So we don't have a great visibility on the chinese stocks. 149 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,179 Speaker 2: It looks like china has quite good stocks. So there's 150 00:08:51,179 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: a lot of calls to try and get more information 151 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,370 Speaker 2: about what china's stock levels are because china's stocks look 152 00:08:57,370 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: like they're pretty good. 153 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,209 Speaker 2: Whereas global stocks are pretty low. So the low stock 154 00:09:04,210 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: levels is another sort of sign for me that we 155 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,150 Speaker 2: should be worried not just now, but in the future. 156 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,670 Speaker 2: So we seem to feel to hear that there are 157 00:09:12,670 --> 00:09:15,230 Speaker 2: quite good stock levels in china, but china is also 158 00:09:15,230 --> 00:09:19,650 Speaker 2: pretty dependent on Ukraine and Russia for imports. So china 159 00:09:19,650 --> 00:09:23,050 Speaker 2: is actually potentially one of the beneficiaries of this new 160 00:09:23,059 --> 00:09:25,010 Speaker 2: Ukraine Russia grain deal. 161 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:29,569 Speaker 2: But again, china can do more to help ease the 162 00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: global market crisis by releasing some of their stocks onto 163 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,099 Speaker 2: global markets and making those more available. 164 00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:42,310 Speaker 2: India has not been the best ally of the poor 165 00:09:42,309 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: world recently. You know, they put in place this ban 166 00:09:45,370 --> 00:09:50,070 Speaker 2: on on grain exports, on wheat exports. Um and this 167 00:09:50,070 --> 00:09:53,750 Speaker 2: was really disruptive to markets and to those countries that were, 168 00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:57,980 Speaker 2: you know, depending on India not banning their exports, but 169 00:09:57,980 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: allowing exports to come out. So that India could then 170 00:10:01,090 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: replace some of the Ukrainian and Russian grain exports. But 171 00:10:08,010 --> 00:10:10,110 Speaker 2: India put in place these export bans 172 00:10:10,135 --> 00:10:14,425 Speaker 2: that was really very badly received by the world. I 173 00:10:14,425 --> 00:10:19,465 Speaker 2: think India is now agreed to lift them. But again, 174 00:10:19,475 --> 00:10:22,905 Speaker 2: India and china are also going to be struggling with 175 00:10:22,915 --> 00:10:26,525 Speaker 2: not just the food prices, but again, this sort of 176 00:10:26,535 --> 00:10:31,975 Speaker 2: multiple crisis of fertilizer energy finance. So on the energy front, 177 00:10:31,985 --> 00:10:38,215 Speaker 2: everybody suffering um on the fertilizer front, everybody's suffering. 178 00:10:38,429 --> 00:10:43,420 Speaker 2: And on the finance side, there's also, you know, huge problems. 179 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:46,530 Speaker 1: No, indeed, you know, with this secular rising interest rates 180 00:10:46,530 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: around the world, your your point on financing, you know, 181 00:10:49,210 --> 00:10:52,140 Speaker 1: really resonates. And we think of food in terms of 182 00:10:52,140 --> 00:10:55,870 Speaker 1: harvest and distribution, perhaps don't pay enough attention to this 183 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,010 Speaker 1: financial angle, which of course, is closer to our heart 184 00:10:59,010 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: in the banking sector. And you sort of, you know, 185 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,150 Speaker 1: starkly pointed out that the linkages and the risks that 186 00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: come with it. 187 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,790 Speaker 1: Now, Karen, you said that, you know, India's, you know, 188 00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:11,020 Speaker 1: sort of ad hoc decision to restrict exports of grain 189 00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:13,470 Speaker 1: met with criticism and there's been some back and forth 190 00:11:13,470 --> 00:11:15,990 Speaker 1: and some easing here and there and perhaps china is 191 00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: also on the table in some global forum around this now, 192 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:21,850 Speaker 1: 2.5 years ago, 193 00:11:21,875 --> 00:11:24,665 Speaker 1: wh o found itself in a very difficult position around 194 00:11:24,665 --> 00:11:28,975 Speaker 1: the pandemic where people were questioning its effectiveness of leadership, 195 00:11:28,975 --> 00:11:30,875 Speaker 1: whether it was biased here or there and that kind 196 00:11:30,875 --> 00:11:36,015 Speaker 1: of stuff. Does the W FB stand on sounder grounds? 197 00:11:36,025 --> 00:11:37,965 Speaker 1: Is it bringing together all the key actors of the 198 00:11:37,965 --> 00:11:39,750 Speaker 1: world in this critical time? 199 00:11:40,510 --> 00:11:43,930 Speaker 2: So, we actually just had a great victory for the 200 00:11:43,929 --> 00:11:49,090 Speaker 2: World Food Program recently in of all unlikely places, the 201 00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 2: World Trade Organization, the W. T. O. 202 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:58,530 Speaker 2: So up until a few weeks ago, countries like India 203 00:11:58,530 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: would have been able to ban exports even for the 204 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,179 Speaker 2: World Food Program. 205 00:12:04,750 --> 00:12:09,329 Speaker 2: And luckily all countries including India and china voted to 206 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:12,540 Speaker 2: agree on what they called the W. F. P. Waver, 207 00:12:13,270 --> 00:12:17,330 Speaker 2: which meant that basically countries agreed at the World Trade 208 00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:24,170 Speaker 2: Organization to not allow export bans or export restrictions on 209 00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:27,730 Speaker 2: food stuffs that was being purchased by the W. F. P. 210 00:12:27,730 --> 00:12:29,460 Speaker 2: For its operations. 211 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,260 Speaker 2: So the WFP is actually in a great situation now 212 00:12:33,260 --> 00:12:36,290 Speaker 2: in terms of countries agreeing that they will not do 213 00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: anything to restrict W. F. P. S ability to do 214 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,180 Speaker 2: its jobs to source food and to get it to 215 00:12:42,179 --> 00:12:43,370 Speaker 2: the people who need it 216 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: where the W. F. P. Is struggling is the numbers 217 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: of hungry people are so out of control that unless 218 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,610 Speaker 2: they get much more funding to finance their food distribution 219 00:12:56,610 --> 00:12:59,540 Speaker 2: or cash distribution programs, they're not going to be able 220 00:12:59,540 --> 00:13:02,820 Speaker 2: to actually get to all the hungry people. And you 221 00:13:02,820 --> 00:13:06,310 Speaker 2: have this dreadful situation where they're having to choose one 222 00:13:06,309 --> 00:13:08,230 Speaker 2: hungry person over another 223 00:13:08,630 --> 00:13:11,750 Speaker 2: or basically target those who are on the verge of 224 00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 2: starvation and not get to the usual um people that 225 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,030 Speaker 2: they're trying to help. So WFP's problem is less about 226 00:13:20,030 --> 00:13:23,310 Speaker 2: sourcing the food and more about getting the money they 227 00:13:23,309 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: need or the support they need to finance their food. 228 00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: But again here, I think W FPs in an okay situation, 229 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: you had a huge announcement by the biden administration in 230 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,939 Speaker 2: this Ukraine bill that was adopted by Congress where a 231 00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:42,660 Speaker 2: huge chunk of that Ukraine bill was a few billion 232 00:13:42,660 --> 00:13:46,900 Speaker 2: dollars allocated to emergency food assistance for the W. F. P. 233 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: Um you've seen Germany announced additional money. Um part of 234 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,699 Speaker 2: which will go for emergency food aid assistance and a 235 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:57,230 Speaker 2: number of other countries. 236 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,850 Speaker 1: Um Karen earlier, you were saying that uh you know, 237 00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: this 238 00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: concern 239 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,420 Speaker 1: about food insecurity even in the near term ones did 240 00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: not begin with this war in Ukraine. We actually saw 241 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,630 Speaker 1: food prices go up even last year. And and even 242 00:14:13,630 --> 00:14:15,590 Speaker 1: before the pandemic and this was an issue, otherwise it 243 00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: would not be, you know, number two on U. N. 244 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,380 Speaker 1: Sustainable goals. So I wanted to engage you about the 245 00:14:22,390 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: structural aspects of food insecurity if I'm not mistaken. I 246 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,100 Speaker 1: mean I think there are human document 247 00:14:28,110 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: Which showed that through the 70s and 80s, even in 248 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,250 Speaker 1: the 90s, the worldwide, you know, hunger rate was going 249 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: down and then over the last decade or so it's 250 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,910 Speaker 1: been going up again, which I find very troubling given 251 00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: that world is much more prosperous today than it was 252 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: 10 or 20 years ago. So why are we becoming 253 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,170 Speaker 1: gradually more food insecure and you know, walk us through 254 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: the you know, all these various structural drivers. 255 00:14:52,770 --> 00:14:58,310 Speaker 2: So indeed um as you rightly mentioned this food insecurity 256 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: situation predates both the COVID pandemic and the war in Ukraine. 257 00:15:03,290 --> 00:15:06,770 Speaker 2: And as you said, I mean we were seeing progress 258 00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:09,870 Speaker 2: including in the 90s. I mean we sort of had 259 00:15:09,870 --> 00:15:14,340 Speaker 2: three decades of great progress where we saw hunger levels 260 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:20,250 Speaker 2: declining up until about a level of 8% of the 261 00:15:20,250 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: global population. 262 00:15:22,250 --> 00:15:25,010 Speaker 2: But for the past and I think it's less than 263 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:28,150 Speaker 2: a decade, I think it's only about five or six years, 264 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,750 Speaker 2: we suddenly see this rise in food insecurity again after 265 00:15:33,370 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: getting so close to wiping out hunger. 266 00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:41,330 Speaker 2: Um so five or six years we've seen an increase. 267 00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:45,850 Speaker 2: The pandemic was by far the biggest setback to global 268 00:15:45,850 --> 00:15:50,390 Speaker 2: food security with more than 100 million people with an 269 00:15:50,390 --> 00:15:54,350 Speaker 2: additional 100 million people going into hunger as a result 270 00:15:54,350 --> 00:15:58,090 Speaker 2: of the pandemic. And now with Ukraine a further, we 271 00:15:58,090 --> 00:16:02,430 Speaker 2: don't know exactly how many but 50-80 million more people 272 00:16:02,430 --> 00:16:04,490 Speaker 2: again being pushed into hunger. 273 00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:10,260 Speaker 2: Why is this happening? Um so I think there are 274 00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 2: three main factors. 275 00:16:13,190 --> 00:16:16,470 Speaker 2: The first is in the last five or six years 276 00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:20,710 Speaker 2: we have experienced more economic slowdowns. I mean today we're 277 00:16:20,710 --> 00:16:25,290 Speaker 2: talking about recessions as well, but many more economic slowdowns 278 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:29,490 Speaker 2: in the low and middle income countries for various reasons. 279 00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:33,620 Speaker 2: In some cases, it's because of low commodity prices, low 280 00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:38,650 Speaker 2: oil prices, low, low low mineral prices. Um 281 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,670 Speaker 2: in other cases it's for other reasons, but we've seen 282 00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: these economic slowdowns and they always put a negative dent 283 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: into food security 284 00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: the second and the more I think more serious problem 285 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,220 Speaker 2: that's with us for the future are the climate shocks, droughts, 286 00:16:57,230 --> 00:16:59,260 Speaker 2: floods and cyclones. 287 00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:05,100 Speaker 2: Climate change has now become one of the main drivers 288 00:17:05,109 --> 00:17:06,690 Speaker 2: of food insecurity 289 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: and this is with us to stay as we know, 290 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:12,820 Speaker 2: we are not going to meet the 1.5 degree target. 291 00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:16,669 Speaker 2: Climate change will be a reality is already a reality. 292 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,250 Speaker 2: It is just going to get worse. And so these 293 00:17:19,250 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 2: shocks are going to continue and I mean, we've seen 294 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,350 Speaker 2: it already, you know, we're seeing it now, the droughts, 295 00:17:24,350 --> 00:17:26,570 Speaker 2: the floods undermining harvests 296 00:17:27,859 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: and then the third driver, which has always been a 297 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: driver and always will be. And I think is probably 298 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,260 Speaker 2: the hardest one to eradicate in our lifetimes is conflict 299 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:40,250 Speaker 2: whenever you see conflict, you see hunger rising. 300 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:46,129 Speaker 2: So for me there's these three factors that are really 301 00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:47,969 Speaker 2: undermining food security 302 00:17:48,570 --> 00:17:52,940 Speaker 2: with the pandemic. The main problem was access not availability 303 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:56,330 Speaker 2: access basically meaning there was a lot of food in 304 00:17:56,330 --> 00:17:59,740 Speaker 2: the market but people lost their incomes. So while those 305 00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 2: people sitting in the rich world got safety nets and 306 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,169 Speaker 2: got all support from their government, those sitting in the 307 00:18:07,170 --> 00:18:10,860 Speaker 2: poor world, their governments couldn't afford to help them. And 308 00:18:10,859 --> 00:18:13,219 Speaker 2: so they lost their with the lockdowns, they lost their 309 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:16,620 Speaker 2: jobs from one day to the next no job, no income, 310 00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:17,429 Speaker 2: no food. 311 00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:22,710 Speaker 2: Um That was really the shock of the covid for 312 00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:26,660 Speaker 2: so many people in low and middle income countries with you, 313 00:18:26,660 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: the Ukraine issue as we've discussed, there's an availability issue, 314 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,990 Speaker 2: there's an access issue. There's these disruptions to grain markets 315 00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:37,939 Speaker 2: with the ports being stopped with countries putting in export bands, 316 00:18:37,950 --> 00:18:41,340 Speaker 2: there's low global stocks, but there's also the fertilizer and 317 00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 2: the energy issue. 318 00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:46,750 Speaker 2: So what do we need to do to fix this 319 00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:52,100 Speaker 2: to stop this horrible reversal of otherwise decades of progress. 320 00:18:52,109 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: So I think immediately people need cash 321 00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:58,670 Speaker 2: to basically get them over the crisis to be able 322 00:18:58,670 --> 00:19:05,129 Speaker 2: to be able to afford food, um healthcare etcetera. So 323 00:19:05,140 --> 00:19:11,340 Speaker 2: I think we need a massive global social safety net program. 324 00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:14,310 Speaker 2: I think the U. N. Needs to oversee it. But 325 00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:17,730 Speaker 2: I think we need a social safety net program on 326 00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:20,750 Speaker 2: the scale we've never seen before that's going to be 327 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,850 Speaker 2: the key factor to help us get over this current crisis. 328 00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: But but Karen when you say a social safety net 329 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,170 Speaker 1: program only for the short term or you would like 330 00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: to see this for the long term to 331 00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:37,260 Speaker 2: we need it for the short term. Getting it for 332 00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:40,020 Speaker 2: the long term is much more political. And there we 333 00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:44,369 Speaker 2: start getting into these discussions about minimum basic incomes who's 334 00:19:44,369 --> 00:19:47,940 Speaker 2: entitled to safety nets, how they should get them. And 335 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:52,709 Speaker 2: this becomes political. And we see in many countries politicians 336 00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:57,330 Speaker 2: now advocating for these basic minimum income. 337 00:19:57,619 --> 00:20:00,310 Speaker 2: But I think this is a bigger discussion to have. 338 00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: What I'm talking about is short term to get us 339 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: over the crisis. Even though if we start getting into 340 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,430 Speaker 2: the discussion, I think there starts being a more and 341 00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: more persuasive argument in favor of a basic minimum income 342 00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:19,660 Speaker 2: for everyone if we accept that the new norm is 343 00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:20,410 Speaker 2: shocks 344 00:20:20,910 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: and I think the new norm is shocks, whether they're 345 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,590 Speaker 2: climate shocks, pandemic shocks, conflict shocks. I think this is 346 00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:32,340 Speaker 2: the new norm at least for the coming decades. 347 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,790 Speaker 1: Um Karen just want to pivot this discussion for a 348 00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:40,420 Speaker 1: second just to go back to the point that 349 00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:44,169 Speaker 1: level of global hunger sort of improved for a while 350 00:20:44,180 --> 00:20:47,540 Speaker 1: and then it exacerbated you've pointed out cogently a bunch 351 00:20:47,540 --> 00:20:51,900 Speaker 1: of factors. I wonder what you think of this notion 352 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:54,869 Speaker 1: that even in terms of crop yield that with the 353 00:20:54,869 --> 00:20:58,369 Speaker 1: Green revolution in the sixties and seventies and as developing 354 00:20:58,369 --> 00:21:01,390 Speaker 1: countries adopted, you know, high yielding fertilizer and so on. 355 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,860 Speaker 1: Um we we saw an improvement in agricultural productivity and 356 00:21:04,869 --> 00:21:07,950 Speaker 1: that's also sort of flattened out, which I find personally 357 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,409 Speaker 1: rather striking given you know, so many 358 00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:14,390 Speaker 1: high tech solutions out there these days from satellite imaging 359 00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:16,939 Speaker 1: and smart irrigation and so on. Um first of all, 360 00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:18,629 Speaker 1: do you agree that, you know, we have sort of 361 00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:21,850 Speaker 1: flattened out in terms of popular around the world or 362 00:21:21,859 --> 00:21:23,970 Speaker 1: is it the case that we still have a lot 363 00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:26,660 Speaker 1: of low hanging fruits in terms of improving agriculture technology 364 00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:29,710 Speaker 1: around the world and improving our food productivity. 365 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: So now we get controversial and we get to this 366 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: link also with our environmental crisis that we currently have. 367 00:21:36,570 --> 00:21:39,909 Speaker 2: So there's no doubt, I think everyone agrees even the 368 00:21:39,910 --> 00:21:44,060 Speaker 2: harshest critics of the Green Revolution agree that the Green 369 00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 2: Revolution is one of the major drivers in having eradicated 370 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: hunger and poverty because of this improvements in yields and 371 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: ability of farmers to go beyond subsistence and to start 372 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,820 Speaker 2: becoming commercial. 373 00:21:59,790 --> 00:22:05,950 Speaker 2: It has created untold environmental problems, not just climate change, 374 00:22:05,950 --> 00:22:11,300 Speaker 2: but biodiversity, loss, pollution. And we are paying for that 375 00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: today so that it's now come back to bite us 376 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,570 Speaker 2: and now environmental problems are one of the main drivers 377 00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:20,490 Speaker 2: of food insecurity and poverty, so 378 00:22:21,050 --> 00:22:25,429 Speaker 2: we've got to deal with the consequences of that success, 379 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 2: I would say it was not only about yield improvements 380 00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:33,540 Speaker 2: and productivity gains and green revolutionary technology. I think there's 381 00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: a lot of other factors that were in play. A 382 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,369 Speaker 2: lot of countries like china succeeded not because they improve 383 00:22:41,369 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: productivity in agriculture, but because they improved productivity productivity in 384 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,290 Speaker 2: non agricultural sectors, manufacturing services, infrastructure, 385 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:56,270 Speaker 2: china moved people out of agriculture as a way to develop. 386 00:22:57,010 --> 00:22:59,219 Speaker 2: That's quite different to what you see some of the 387 00:22:59,220 --> 00:23:03,620 Speaker 2: latin american countries having achieved where they really pushed agriculture 388 00:23:03,630 --> 00:23:08,780 Speaker 2: as the engine of growth and their engine of economic development, Brazil, 389 00:23:08,790 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: Argentina Uruguay, all these countries, Costa rica, you know, agriculture 390 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,730 Speaker 2: was the way that they got out of hunger and poverty, 391 00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:22,350 Speaker 2: but it's not a universal story. There's a lot of 392 00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:26,500 Speaker 2: other countries that, you know, Vietnam China pursued a different 393 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:31,030 Speaker 2: model that's been arguably more successful because they've now got 394 00:23:31,030 --> 00:23:33,020 Speaker 2: very diversified economies. 395 00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 2: Um 396 00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: technology has been a huge factor, but not just crop technologies, 397 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: not just technologies that improved yields, technologies that improved access 398 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,060 Speaker 2: to energy or improved mobility or made it easier to 399 00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:53,970 Speaker 2: apply machinery technology. All of these other factors have also 400 00:23:53,970 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: played a role. 401 00:23:55,619 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: And I do think that as we find solutions for our, 402 00:23:59,890 --> 00:24:03,619 Speaker 2: for our current and future problems, we can no longer 403 00:24:03,619 --> 00:24:07,020 Speaker 2: just rely on the old way we did things. Um 404 00:24:07,030 --> 00:24:10,850 Speaker 2: even those who are huge supporters of the Green Revolution 405 00:24:10,859 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: um realize that we can't keep doing it this way 406 00:24:14,609 --> 00:24:17,900 Speaker 2: that as you said, we've reached in some places, we've 407 00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:20,340 Speaker 2: reached the limit of our yield potential? 408 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:26,490 Speaker 2: We haven't everywhere, there's still massive productivity gaps in agriculture 409 00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:31,980 Speaker 2: in africa, so there's still a huge yield gap to 410 00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:34,350 Speaker 2: fill in african agriculture, 411 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: but if we do it in the same way as 412 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,180 Speaker 2: we did it in Asia and latin America, we will 413 00:24:40,260 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: keep exacerbating these environmental problems that are 414 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:48,050 Speaker 2: undermining our ability to solve these problems for good. 415 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,910 Speaker 1: Um Karen, I want to go back to the earlier point, 416 00:24:52,910 --> 00:24:55,230 Speaker 1: you were talking about this notion of a short term 417 00:24:55,230 --> 00:25:00,370 Speaker 1: global food Safety net. Now their trust funds and financing 418 00:25:00,369 --> 00:25:03,770 Speaker 1: facilities in the multilateral world out there. So, for example, 419 00:25:03,770 --> 00:25:06,990 Speaker 1: the I. M. F. Has this resilience and sustainability trust fund, 420 00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: I believe Bangladesh has reached out to the I. M. 421 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,700 Speaker 1: F to seek a trance from that um as part of, 422 00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:14,130 Speaker 1: you know, sort of building up buffers 423 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,370 Speaker 1: against, you know, future shocks, not in history, really insecurity, 424 00:25:17,369 --> 00:25:21,770 Speaker 1: but balance of payments. Now, I want to sort of, 425 00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: you know, segue into serious 2030 in in a in 426 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,790 Speaker 1: a sort of, you know, cumbersome manner because these sort 427 00:25:28,790 --> 00:25:33,070 Speaker 1: of issues that, you know, how to fund gaps in 428 00:25:33,070 --> 00:25:35,770 Speaker 1: food security in the short term as well as set 429 00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:38,230 Speaker 1: basis for the longer term, required 430 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,550 Speaker 1: Serious analysis, serious costing exercise things that are very credible to, 431 00:25:43,550 --> 00:25:46,139 Speaker 1: as you were saying earlier, not just ministers that you 432 00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:49,820 Speaker 1: engage with, but also extremely wealthy philanthropists who want to 433 00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:55,550 Speaker 1: see convincing science-based numbers. So who's running these exercises? What 434 00:25:55,550 --> 00:25:58,750 Speaker 1: are the, you know, costing estimates for the near and 435 00:25:58,750 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: medium term? So walk us through serious 2030. 436 00:26:03,310 --> 00:26:09,300 Speaker 2: Thank you. So Sarah's 2030 was this three year research effort? 437 00:26:09,310 --> 00:26:14,510 Speaker 2: We were we were almost 90 researchers from 23 different 438 00:26:14,510 --> 00:26:18,300 Speaker 2: countries and 53 different research organizations. 439 00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:22,210 Speaker 2: Um We were financed by the Bill and Melinda Gates 440 00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:25,330 Speaker 2: Foundation and the german government. So that gets back to 441 00:26:25,330 --> 00:26:28,530 Speaker 2: our trying to convince the most powerful. So it was 442 00:26:28,530 --> 00:26:31,500 Speaker 2: a study commissioned by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation 443 00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:35,149 Speaker 2: and the german government to try and answer this question, 444 00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:39,820 Speaker 2: how much is it going to cost to end hunger 445 00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 2: and what are the most effective ways of doing it? 446 00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 2: And we really use that S. T. G. Two framework 447 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,020 Speaker 2: as our 448 00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:52,090 Speaker 2: framework for defining what are our targets and indicators. You 449 00:26:52,090 --> 00:26:54,379 Speaker 2: mentioned it in the in the introduction today. 450 00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: So what we did was we reviewed half a million 451 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,810 Speaker 2: articles from the past 20 years of agricultural development literature 452 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: and then we used a global economic model to estimate 453 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 2: how it would cost. So what the literature told us, well, 454 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,980 Speaker 2: what were the most effective ways to end hunger and 455 00:27:14,980 --> 00:27:16,750 Speaker 2: what the model told us was how much it was 456 00:27:16,750 --> 00:27:17,750 Speaker 2: going to cost. 457 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,220 Speaker 2: And we were all very surprised with the results 458 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,510 Speaker 2: Because what we found was that it really is possible 459 00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:30,030 Speaker 2: to end world hunger and it's possible to do it 460 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 2: by 2030 and it's possible to do it in a 461 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,780 Speaker 2: sustainable way. 462 00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:38,940 Speaker 2: So what we found is basically that the price tag 463 00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:43,860 Speaker 2: is an extra $33 billion 2030. 464 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,710 Speaker 2: And that with that what we could do was end hunger, 465 00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:52,850 Speaker 2: we could double the incomes and the productivity of about 466 00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:55,460 Speaker 2: half a billion poor producers, 467 00:27:56,530 --> 00:27:58,899 Speaker 2: and we could do it in a way that maintained 468 00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:03,790 Speaker 2: greenhouse gas emissions in agriculture, to the commitments that countries 469 00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: made in the paris climate agreement. 470 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,170 Speaker 2: So we have a hunger target, a producer productivity target, 471 00:28:12,250 --> 00:28:13,940 Speaker 2: and we have a climate target 472 00:28:15,410 --> 00:28:18,220 Speaker 2: And of this sort of total package of an additional 473 00:28:18,220 --> 00:28:22,490 Speaker 2: 33 billion a year, 19 out of the 33 billion 474 00:28:22,490 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 2: has to come from the countries themselves, the low and 475 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:31,369 Speaker 2: middle-income countries themselves through their own public resource, mobilization. 476 00:28:32,270 --> 00:28:35,270 Speaker 2: So that only 14 out of the 33 billion a 477 00:28:35,270 --> 00:28:37,430 Speaker 2: year has to come from outside help 478 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:43,730 Speaker 2: from donors, from philanthropists, etcetera. 479 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,420 Speaker 2: And this is in many ways why we founded the 480 00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:50,490 Speaker 2: Schomburg Center for Food and Climate, because once we saw 481 00:28:50,490 --> 00:28:52,650 Speaker 2: this evidence based 482 00:28:53,310 --> 00:28:56,140 Speaker 2: um report come out and we were convinced that it 483 00:28:56,140 --> 00:28:59,820 Speaker 2: was so possible to end hunger, we decided, okay, we 484 00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: need to establish an organization with a vision to end 485 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,780 Speaker 2: world hunger sustainably and to do it by empowering those 486 00:29:07,780 --> 00:29:11,900 Speaker 2: producers and those businesses that are the sort of key 487 00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:16,050 Speaker 2: to unleashing that um that goal. 488 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,690 Speaker 2: So in Sarah's 2030 just coming back um and then 489 00:29:20,690 --> 00:29:23,100 Speaker 2: I will hand over back to you for other questions. 490 00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: So we basically found that 90 countries need to be 491 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,650 Speaker 2: prioritized for this investment 492 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,530 Speaker 2: And that there's 10 high impact areas where we need 493 00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:35,770 Speaker 2: more investment. 494 00:29:36,780 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 2: So we have these 10 high impact areas and we 495 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,270 Speaker 2: group them into three big buckets if you like. So 496 00:29:44,270 --> 00:29:47,140 Speaker 2: the first bucket and probably the most important is all 497 00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:51,370 Speaker 2: the on farm investments and these are investments like investments 498 00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:57,070 Speaker 2: in research and development in technology, in mechanization in assets 499 00:29:57,070 --> 00:30:02,430 Speaker 2: that basically help farmers to improve their productivity and their incomes. 500 00:30:03,890 --> 00:30:06,260 Speaker 2: The second is investments 501 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:10,860 Speaker 2: to move food from the farm to the market and 502 00:30:10,860 --> 00:30:14,610 Speaker 2: it's basically things that improve storage is improved business services 503 00:30:14,610 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: that farmers need. And the third is this bucket called 504 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: empowering the excluded and this is all our social safety 505 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,860 Speaker 2: nets but it's also our education and vocational training and 506 00:30:27,860 --> 00:30:33,350 Speaker 2: it's basically the things that allow people to be at 507 00:30:34,410 --> 00:30:38,030 Speaker 2: a level needed so that they can benefit from everything else. 508 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,010 Speaker 2: So it's making sure that you have an education, a 509 00:30:41,010 --> 00:30:44,350 Speaker 2: decent livelihood and a political voice so that when all 510 00:30:44,350 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: these other help comes technology inputs, R and D. Business 511 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,590 Speaker 2: services that you can benefit from it. 512 00:30:53,170 --> 00:30:56,770 Speaker 1: All right, lots of follow up questions. So firstly the 513 00:30:56,780 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: 90 countries that you're talking about are the majority of 514 00:31:01,330 --> 00:31:02,950 Speaker 1: them in Africa. 515 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,330 Speaker 2: Yes and the highest so far 90. We have low priority, 516 00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:11,090 Speaker 2: medium priority and high priority by far most of the 517 00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:13,690 Speaker 2: higher priority countries are in Africa. And most of the 518 00:31:13,690 --> 00:31:16,860 Speaker 2: priority countries that are in Africa. But there are pockets 519 00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: in Southeast Asia, South Asia and in Central America 520 00:31:22,150 --> 00:31:25,020 Speaker 1: including Central America. Okay. Which is sandwiched between two very 521 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:27,290 Speaker 1: large food producing regions of the world. North America and 522 00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:28,930 Speaker 1: South America. Yeah, it's ironic. 523 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: Um second question is you know, you earlier talked about 524 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,500 Speaker 1: you know the U. S. Philanthropist being very engaged, particularly 525 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:37,620 Speaker 1: the Gates Foundation. And we also talked about how the 526 00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: latest bill coming out of the U. S. Congress will 527 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,790 Speaker 1: also channel you know critical resources toward uh this issue. 528 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,140 Speaker 1: But what about european union? What about the rest of Asia? 529 00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: What kind of leadership are we seeing both in terms 530 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,670 Speaker 1: of commitment to finance at the public and private sector 531 00:31:53,670 --> 00:31:56,410 Speaker 1: level as well as actual action? 532 00:31:57,690 --> 00:32:02,930 Speaker 2: I mean I think probably where where ASIA is going 533 00:32:02,930 --> 00:32:06,900 Speaker 2: to be contributing the most is in all the infrastructure development. 534 00:32:06,910 --> 00:32:11,100 Speaker 2: I mean china leading the one belt um initiative, a 535 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:16,470 Speaker 2: huge infrastructure project, China financing a lot of the infrastructure 536 00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:20,770 Speaker 2: development in Africa today and in South Asia, I think 537 00:32:20,770 --> 00:32:23,700 Speaker 2: china is going to be hugely important in the infrastructure, 538 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,270 Speaker 2: the way china provides its aid though, can sometimes make 539 00:32:29,270 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: countries more vulnerable and we've seen this with a lot 540 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,780 Speaker 2: of these very attractive loans for infrastructure development and then 541 00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:40,890 Speaker 2: when the country can't pay it back the chinese government 542 00:32:40,890 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: or the chinese state owned enterprise that is responsible for 543 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: it takes over these assets. And we see a number 544 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,650 Speaker 2: of ports, roads and bridges where the country has been 545 00:32:50,660 --> 00:32:54,020 Speaker 2: unable to repay the loan back, where 546 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,010 Speaker 2: china has gone in and over, taken over or the 547 00:32:57,020 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 2: state owned enterprises has gone and taken over these assets. 548 00:33:00,130 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: Now I think china could do more to make the 549 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,020 Speaker 2: countries that they're providing these loans to not as vulnerable 550 00:33:07,030 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: um to going into debt and being unable to repay 551 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,340 Speaker 2: those loans. But I think china, the ASIA Development Bank, 552 00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:19,290 Speaker 2: the the new asian infrastructure and investment banks are going 553 00:33:19,290 --> 00:33:23,500 Speaker 2: to be a huge source of additional investment um 554 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,729 Speaker 2: in the coming decades. 555 00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: Um The european Union's the european union and the european 556 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,990 Speaker 2: Member States definitely have stepped up. We've seen France and 557 00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:38,060 Speaker 2: Germany in particular add more resources. We've seen the european 558 00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:40,050 Speaker 2: commission add more resources. 559 00:33:40,850 --> 00:33:43,500 Speaker 2: There is a lot of attention right now on Ukraine 560 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:46,370 Speaker 2: because it is the biggest threat to the european Union 561 00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: since World War Two. Um and so they are quite 562 00:33:49,810 --> 00:33:53,450 Speaker 2: focused there, but there is additional money being made available, 563 00:33:55,210 --> 00:33:57,850 Speaker 2: but we have, I mean, you have to acknowledge that 564 00:33:57,850 --> 00:34:01,330 Speaker 2: we have seen leadership from the U. S. In terms 565 00:34:01,330 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: of additional support and additional resources, not just for Ukraine 566 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,060 Speaker 2: but also globally um that we hadn't seen under the 567 00:34:09,070 --> 00:34:10,530 Speaker 2: previous administration, 568 00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: right uh that is certainly a major departure, I want 569 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,770 Speaker 1: to talk about about Asia. So you again talked about 570 00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:22,250 Speaker 1: private capital uh you know, being channeled out of the U. S. 571 00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: Now huge amount of wealth has been created in Asia 572 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,250 Speaker 1: in recent years. We have some of the richest men 573 00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:30,060 Speaker 1: in the world and they're mostly men uh in in 574 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:34,250 Speaker 1: china and India. What kind of philanthropy capital are we 575 00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:36,750 Speaker 1: seeing devoted towards this issue out of Asia? 576 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:43,009 Speaker 2: So this is not something that I follow quite a lot. 577 00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:46,410 Speaker 2: So I think I probably wouldn't be able to answer you. 578 00:34:46,420 --> 00:34:49,870 Speaker 2: I mean certainly at a global level we're not seeing 579 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,790 Speaker 2: asian philanthropists stepping up, but 580 00:34:53,380 --> 00:34:56,260 Speaker 2: but I do, I mean I do here 581 00:34:57,180 --> 00:35:00,650 Speaker 2: I do hear a lot about asian philanthropy in Asia. 582 00:35:00,660 --> 00:35:03,780 Speaker 2: But again, I think I'm probably not the best person 583 00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:05,210 Speaker 2: to answer this question. 584 00:35:05,219 --> 00:35:08,390 Speaker 1: You're being very diplomatic. I think there isn't a lot, 585 00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:10,189 Speaker 1: I mean if there was some chunky stuff I think 586 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,300 Speaker 1: would have seen in the news, Karen, I think there's 587 00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: more work to be done there and perhaps you can, 588 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,390 Speaker 1: you know, lead that way in, you know, encouraging controlling 589 00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:21,230 Speaker 1: the wealthy of Asia. 590 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: Um Karen, the issue about global policy coordination. So is 591 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,830 Speaker 1: the W. F. P. And as you said earlier that, 592 00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, with the issues of W. T. O. That's 593 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,250 Speaker 1: where the coordination is taking place, not at the Washington 594 00:35:35,340 --> 00:35:37,990 Speaker 1: think tanks like the World Bank, I m f they're 595 00:35:37,989 --> 00:35:40,589 Speaker 1: sort of supporting as opposed to taking the lead. 596 00:35:41,370 --> 00:35:45,820 Speaker 2: So the main um the main and I think rightly 597 00:35:45,820 --> 00:35:50,660 Speaker 2: so the main group coordinating this effort is the UN's 598 00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:55,710 Speaker 2: crisis group on they call it the US crisis group 599 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,130 Speaker 2: on Food Finance 600 00:36:00,370 --> 00:36:01,410 Speaker 2: and 601 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:04,410 Speaker 2: I can't remember the 602 00:36:04,410 --> 00:36:05,819 Speaker 1: third 603 00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 2: but Food energy and finance Food 604 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:10,710 Speaker 1: energy. 605 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,630 Speaker 2: So there's so the U. N. Is the main body 606 00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:18,430 Speaker 2: coordinating this global response. But we've seen a multitude of 607 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,029 Speaker 2: other initiatives emerge right? So we've seen an initiative sort 608 00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: of supporting this U. N. Coordination mechanism um from the 609 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,670 Speaker 2: G seven and the World Bank 610 00:36:29,890 --> 00:36:34,050 Speaker 2: with this Global Alliance for Food Security that was announced 611 00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:38,670 Speaker 2: at the World Bank spring meetings last year. Um And 612 00:36:38,670 --> 00:36:42,250 Speaker 2: then followed by this big conference called Global Uniting for 613 00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:46,190 Speaker 2: Global Food Security which was a gathering of Foreign ministers, 614 00:36:46,190 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 2: Finance ministers, um Agriculture ministers and Environment Ministers to try 615 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,900 Speaker 2: and unite again led by the G seven. 616 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,980 Speaker 2: And then for me, the best news was the G. 617 00:36:58,980 --> 00:37:03,069 Speaker 2: Seven summit that took place in Germany this year, where 618 00:37:03,070 --> 00:37:08,069 Speaker 2: the G seven leaders announced an additional $4.5 billion this 619 00:37:08,070 --> 00:37:12,259 Speaker 2: year to help respond to the global food Security crisis. 620 00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:15,250 Speaker 2: So I think there's been quite good leadership coming out 621 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:16,290 Speaker 2: of the G seven. 622 00:37:17,370 --> 00:37:20,770 Speaker 2: There's also been important leadership coming out of the G-20 623 00:37:20,770 --> 00:37:24,250 Speaker 2: with the Indonesian government currently holding the presidency. And there 624 00:37:24,250 --> 00:37:27,300 Speaker 2: there was a major finance ministers meeting a few weeks 625 00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:32,570 Speaker 2: ago on food security. I mean seeing finance ministers gathering 626 00:37:32,570 --> 00:37:37,020 Speaker 2: to address the global food security crisis is unheard of. 627 00:37:37,710 --> 00:37:41,149 Speaker 2: Um it just shows you how important this issue is 628 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,810 Speaker 2: and how important governments at all levels are taking this 629 00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:48,450 Speaker 2: the leadership, the Finance Ministry's. Um 630 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:57,060 Speaker 2: so we're seeing that we saw the european commission currently 631 00:37:57,060 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 2: led by the french government launching a farm initiative, a 632 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: food and Agriculture resilience mission initiative where they've pledged additional 633 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: money 634 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,660 Speaker 2: and we've seen the italian government taking the lead in 635 00:38:11,660 --> 00:38:15,740 Speaker 2: setting up a mediterranean initiative. So, so everywhere a bit 636 00:38:15,739 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 2: we're seeing initiatives emerging, I would say the main the 637 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,330 Speaker 2: leading coordinating body is the U. N. But there are 638 00:38:23,330 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 2: these sort of other groups that are emerging to help 639 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 2: accelerate that progress or work on specific areas or issues 640 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:30,620 Speaker 2: of need. 641 00:38:31,070 --> 00:38:34,310 Speaker 1: Okay, you know, we we started this conversation with rather 642 00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:38,140 Speaker 1: dour and sobering reality. I'm glad that you're injecting a 643 00:38:38,140 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: much needed dose of optimism and and constructive, you know, 644 00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:49,380 Speaker 1: observations Karen here in Singapore, we have this government orchestrated 645 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:52,370 Speaker 1: 2030 goal 30 by 30 that 30% of 646 00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:56,460 Speaker 1: Singapore's basic food would be grown in the urban vertical 647 00:38:56,460 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 1: farming infrastructure of Singapore. So we talked a lot about 648 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: farms which is by definition not urban and we talk 649 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,710 Speaker 1: about farmers, which I think, you know, largely speaking, we 650 00:39:07,710 --> 00:39:10,710 Speaker 1: talk about rural farmers, what's your sense of what's happening 651 00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:13,690 Speaker 1: in this new, exciting field of urban farming. 652 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,390 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, um 653 00:39:16,989 --> 00:39:19,650 Speaker 2: I've actually looked a little bit at what's going on 654 00:39:19,650 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 2: in Singapore and I think this is the future, I 655 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: think given the current reality, I think our future food 656 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,830 Speaker 2: supplies are going to be grown in vertical farms and 657 00:39:31,830 --> 00:39:34,820 Speaker 2: as we see like Singapore is taking the lead because 658 00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:38,110 Speaker 2: there is no farmland in Singapore is taking the lead 659 00:39:38,110 --> 00:39:39,730 Speaker 2: in developing the technology. 660 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,259 Speaker 2: It is currently way too energy intensive to really be 661 00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:49,900 Speaker 2: a sustainable alternative to the current model. It uses far 662 00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,310 Speaker 2: too much energy to produce the food. 663 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,529 Speaker 2: But if and when we solve the energy problem and 664 00:39:56,530 --> 00:40:00,230 Speaker 2: we can source these vertical farms with renewable energy, 665 00:40:00,489 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 2: truly sustainable energy. I think they are a very viable 666 00:40:04,810 --> 00:40:12,090 Speaker 2: alternative to our currently highly polluting high emissions intensive, highly 667 00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:16,930 Speaker 2: like unsecure because of the climate shocks model of agriculture 668 00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 2: that we're currently engaged in. So I definitely think this 669 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,710 Speaker 2: vertical farming is one of the is one of the 670 00:40:23,710 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: areas we should be looking into. 671 00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:28,420 Speaker 2: It's never going to be the only way we can 672 00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:32,890 Speaker 2: grow food. And so whilst we pursue these vertical farms 673 00:40:32,890 --> 00:40:35,420 Speaker 2: we also need to pursue a whole lot of other 674 00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: ways of producing in a more environmentally friendly way. And 675 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,529 Speaker 2: I think one of the easy to really easy things 676 00:40:42,530 --> 00:40:43,259 Speaker 2: we can do 677 00:40:43,489 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 2: one is being much more efficient and effective at applying 678 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 2: the inputs we apply. Let's be much more precise about 679 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: where we apply fertilizer and where we apply pesticide and 680 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,259 Speaker 2: let's apply it where it's needed rather than just across 681 00:41:00,260 --> 00:41:04,049 Speaker 2: a whole farm or across thousands of hectares. So everything 682 00:41:04,050 --> 00:41:06,169 Speaker 2: that's happening in precision agriculture, 683 00:41:06,830 --> 00:41:09,810 Speaker 2: let's be more efficient at how we use water. Let's 684 00:41:09,810 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 2: stop using flood irrigation and rotational irrigation and let's massively 685 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,270 Speaker 2: input like drip irrigation. 686 00:41:18,370 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 2: Um so being much more efficient at how we use 687 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,800 Speaker 2: the inputs we need for producing food. And the second 688 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,740 Speaker 2: big thing, which is an easy victory to have is 689 00:41:30,739 --> 00:41:32,739 Speaker 2: dealing with the waste. 690 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,469 Speaker 2: The waste at the farm level, the waste at the 691 00:41:37,469 --> 00:41:40,890 Speaker 2: storage level and the waste at the consumer level. It's 692 00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:43,130 Speaker 2: not just about the waste we do in our fridge 693 00:41:43,130 --> 00:41:46,570 Speaker 2: is where we throw out half our fridge because the food, 694 00:41:46,580 --> 00:41:48,589 Speaker 2: you know, got expired, 695 00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:51,860 Speaker 2: it's about all the waste that's happening along the value 696 00:41:51,860 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 2: chain where we're losing a huge percentage. We don't exactly 697 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,290 Speaker 2: know how much, we think it's somewhere between a quarter 698 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:02,650 Speaker 2: and a third, but where we're wasting huge amounts of 699 00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:07,739 Speaker 2: food because we don't have proper storage facilities, cold storage 700 00:42:07,739 --> 00:42:12,830 Speaker 2: facilities proper. Um yeah, 701 00:42:13,550 --> 00:42:16,250 Speaker 1: okay. I want to assure all the listeners that this 702 00:42:16,250 --> 00:42:18,710 Speaker 1: was not a planted question, Karen, the reason I say 703 00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:21,310 Speaker 1: this because food waste related work is very close to 704 00:42:21,310 --> 00:42:23,779 Speaker 1: dBS heart and we have launched a lot of campaigns 705 00:42:23,780 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: about it. So people might think that, you know, I 706 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: told you to talk about this, but this was completely unsolicited, 707 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,970 Speaker 1: this is totally from our own brain, Karen, it's 708 00:42:31,969 --> 00:42:34,910 Speaker 2: great to hear that because seriously this is our lowest 709 00:42:34,910 --> 00:42:35,989 Speaker 2: hanging fruit. 710 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,700 Speaker 1: Indeed, Absolutely. And it's so visible, so visible that the 711 00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: waste part, 712 00:42:42,750 --> 00:42:47,300 Speaker 1: um so, Karen, a this has been very illuminating. I 713 00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:49,420 Speaker 1: really thank you for this. I want to sort of 714 00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:52,290 Speaker 1: conclude the conversation with you sort of flagging 715 00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: The biggest risk and perhaps on the positive side, you know, 716 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,780 Speaker 1: biggest opportunity for the remainder of the decade. Like when 717 00:42:58,780 --> 00:43:01,980 Speaker 1: you did your series 2030, we still didn't have this 718 00:43:01,989 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: cloud of the war over us. Have those estimates become 719 00:43:06,890 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: more challenging? Are you actually more hopeful? Because the crisis 720 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,530 Speaker 1: has galvanized, like you said, the finance ministers, which was 721 00:43:14,530 --> 00:43:16,570 Speaker 1: not necessarily the case in the past. So where do 722 00:43:16,570 --> 00:43:19,029 Speaker 1: we stand in this juncture of 723 00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:21,660 Speaker 1: things looking a bit dodgy? But at the same time 724 00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:24,259 Speaker 1: we are hearing the clarion call of action. 725 00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:28,910 Speaker 2: So I think my risk and my opportunity are very linked. 726 00:43:29,070 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: The risk is people feeling like there's nothing they can 727 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,500 Speaker 2: do about this problem, that it's too big 728 00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:39,649 Speaker 2: ending. World hunger is a whole of society effort. We're 729 00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 2: not going to achieve it unless the whole of society acts. 730 00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:47,250 Speaker 2: And so for me, the opportunity is for everybody to 731 00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:48,240 Speaker 2: do their bit. 732 00:43:49,260 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 2: And, you know, I mentioned in the beginning this zero 733 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 2: hunger private sector pledge, which for me is one of the, 734 00:43:55,250 --> 00:43:57,330 Speaker 2: one of one of the most 735 00:43:58,530 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 2: innovative mechanisms we have for everybody to act, any company, 736 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 2: no matter how big or how small can make a 737 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:12,049 Speaker 2: financial commitment to invest in one of these 10 areas 738 00:44:12,050 --> 00:44:15,570 Speaker 2: that was identified through the science of Sara's 2030 and 739 00:44:15,570 --> 00:44:17,850 Speaker 2: in one of the 90 priority countries 740 00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:20,969 Speaker 2: to contribute to ending world hunger. 741 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,750 Speaker 2: So if you're a company or if you're part of 742 00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:26,190 Speaker 2: the private sector, no matter how big or how small 743 00:44:26,190 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 2: we've had companies pledge $100, we've had companies pledge $160 million. 744 00:44:33,130 --> 00:44:35,850 Speaker 2: This is not about charity. We're not asking for anybody 745 00:44:35,850 --> 00:44:40,020 Speaker 2: to donate money. We're asking companies to say we will 746 00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:43,989 Speaker 2: invest in areas that will contribute to food security and 747 00:44:43,989 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 2: you don't even have to be a food business, you 748 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,750 Speaker 2: can be an airline, you can be a tech company, 749 00:44:48,969 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 2: do something that helps the food system get better at 750 00:44:55,130 --> 00:44:56,350 Speaker 2: ending world hunger. 751 00:44:57,430 --> 00:45:00,890 Speaker 2: So anybody who's listening, who's part of a company get 752 00:45:00,890 --> 00:45:02,430 Speaker 2: your company to pledge, 753 00:45:04,070 --> 00:45:08,530 Speaker 2: if you're a government provide more money to these 10 areas, 754 00:45:08,540 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 2: we've we've, you know, there's alongside the Zero hunger private 755 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 2: sector pledge, there's a huge coalition that was launched called 756 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 2: the Zero Hunger Coalition that allows governments, international organizations, companies, 757 00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:27,819 Speaker 2: civil society, farmers organizations, all to act to make commitments 758 00:45:27,820 --> 00:45:28,790 Speaker 2: and to act. 759 00:45:29,469 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 2: And I think that the risk is this not happening 760 00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:35,700 Speaker 2: because people feel like the problem is too big or 761 00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 2: it's not theirs and the opportunity is for everybody to 762 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 2: get together and to make these very concrete practical commitments 763 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 2: to act to try and achieve this goal by 2030. 764 00:45:49,630 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: Well, we sort of, you know, not only is keep 765 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,089 Speaker 1: our fingers crossed, but to your point that, you know, 766 00:45:55,100 --> 00:46:00,870 Speaker 1: action and and practical are absolutely key. Karen smaller. Thank 767 00:46:00,870 --> 00:46:02,470 Speaker 1: you so much for your time and in science. 768 00:46:03,310 --> 00:46:06,339 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's been great talking to you today. 769 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,180 Speaker 1: Thanks to our listeners as well. Kobe time was produced 770 00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:13,370 Speaker 1: by ken Dell Bridge from Split Studios, daisy Sharma and 771 00:46:13,370 --> 00:46:17,550 Speaker 1: violently provided additional production assistance. Kobe time is for information 772 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,450 Speaker 1: only and does not present any tree. 773 00:46:19,469 --> 00:46:22,950 Speaker 1: Great recommendations. All 82 episodes of the podcast are available 774 00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:26,280 Speaker 1: on Youtube as well as on all major podcast platforms 775 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,219 Speaker 1: including Apple, google and Spotify. As for our research publications, 776 00:46:30,219 --> 00:46:32,310 Speaker 1: webinars and live streams. You can find them all by 777 00:46:32,310 --> 00:46:35,629 Speaker 1: googling Devious Research Library. Have a great day.