1 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:09,220 Speaker 1: Welcome to Kobe Time, a podcast series on Markets and 2 00:00:09,228 --> 00:00:13,140 Speaker 1: Economies from DVS Group Research. I'm Ta Wei, chief economist, 3 00:00:13,148 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: welcoming you to our 111th episode 4 00:00:17,489 --> 00:00:21,020 Speaker 1: these days. Uh There is such an overload of near 5 00:00:21,069 --> 00:00:25,350 Speaker 1: term developments that we often lack the bandwidth to absorb 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,579 Speaker 1: and appreciate our medium term challenges and imperatives, kilometers wars 7 00:00:30,590 --> 00:00:34,189 Speaker 1: and spiking interest rates and great power rivalry. These things 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,259 Speaker 1: have not obviated the challenges and need to think about 9 00:00:38,270 --> 00:00:41,990 Speaker 1: climate change and sustainability and yet our attention these days 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,430 Speaker 1: is largely focused on the former and not sufficient in 11 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:46,708 Speaker 1: my view on the latter. 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,419 Speaker 1: So let's take a step back today and look at 13 00:00:49,430 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: our challenges around sustainable food and all sorts of issues 14 00:00:53,090 --> 00:00:56,310 Speaker 1: and offshoots mind that we'll, we'll talk about why we 15 00:00:56,319 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: met offshoot later around it. We have two entrepreneurs with us, 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,970 Speaker 1: Dirk and Leia Ekel Burger. Dirk is the CEO of 17 00:01:04,980 --> 00:01:09,110 Speaker 1: Singapore aquaculture technologies. In other words, he runs a fish 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,179 Speaker 1: farm right here in Singapore. Um And more on that 19 00:01:13,449 --> 00:01:15,660 Speaker 1: including the tech that goes around it later. 20 00:01:16,139 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: Lia is one of the forces behind streets market and 21 00:01:19,169 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: alchemy in Singapore street market is an Ecommerce platform for 22 00:01:23,410 --> 00:01:27,300 Speaker 1: home delivery of organic produce. She is now spending a 23 00:01:27,309 --> 00:01:31,339 Speaker 1: lot of time to launch alchemy, a skincare product range 24 00:01:31,349 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: that offers a proprietary ingredient while emphasizing clean green and 25 00:01:36,129 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 1: blue beauty. 26 00:01:37,809 --> 00:01:40,649 Speaker 1: Dirk and Lilia. Welcome to Kobe Time. Thank you. 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:41,669 Speaker 2: Pleasure being here. 28 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,268 Speaker 1: Great to have you. We've had very casual conversations about 29 00:01:44,279 --> 00:01:45,809 Speaker 1: what you guys do and I think it will be 30 00:01:45,819 --> 00:01:48,959 Speaker 1: just fantastic for our listeners to talk about your journey 31 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:52,250 Speaker 1: and the challenges that you face in your journey. So 32 00:01:52,260 --> 00:01:55,269 Speaker 1: let's start with Dirk Dirk. Um Let's go back, 33 00:01:55,574 --> 00:01:59,775 Speaker 1: refer to your company as S a Singapore. A technology sat. 34 00:02:00,014 --> 00:02:03,434 Speaker 1: So you and Michael Weyman started this way back in 2012, 35 00:02:03,444 --> 00:02:05,555 Speaker 1: but not initially to do fish farming. Am 36 00:02:05,565 --> 00:02:08,274 Speaker 2: I correct? That's right. We had a kind of a 37 00:02:08,285 --> 00:02:11,634 Speaker 2: sabbatical break in our careers and we were looking, what's 38 00:02:11,645 --> 00:02:14,954 Speaker 2: the next big thing to do? And food and energy 39 00:02:14,964 --> 00:02:19,543 Speaker 2: were big topics. So food as in protein and energy 40 00:02:19,554 --> 00:02:22,125 Speaker 2: as in oil and with micro algae, we found a 41 00:02:22,133 --> 00:02:23,714 Speaker 2: renewable source for both. 42 00:02:24,089 --> 00:02:27,929 Speaker 2: So we started to grow microalgae and we did that 43 00:02:27,940 --> 00:02:31,899 Speaker 2: on a traditional Geelong or a fish farm in Singapore. 44 00:02:32,779 --> 00:02:35,250 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about your background that you know, 45 00:02:35,258 --> 00:02:37,509 Speaker 1: how come you're an expert on micro algae or anything 46 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:37,779 Speaker 1: around 47 00:02:37,788 --> 00:02:41,470 Speaker 2: that? Well, actually, I'm not, I'm an economist by training. Um, 48 00:02:41,529 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 2: but Michael is a chemist and he knows a bit 49 00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: more about that. He also is good in biology. 50 00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:49,529 Speaker 2: But we were intrigued by the potential uh that was 51 00:02:49,538 --> 00:02:53,038 Speaker 2: around micro Arga. We also had an additional founder of that, 52 00:02:53,050 --> 00:02:59,350 Speaker 2: of that concept at the time, who was uh very scientifically, 53 00:03:00,149 --> 00:03:03,940 Speaker 2: properly educated in in the potential of micro Arga. So 54 00:03:03,949 --> 00:03:06,250 Speaker 2: we jumped on it and gave it a try. So 55 00:03:06,258 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: jumping is the right word. I mean, this is a 56 00:03:07,889 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: decade ago, you know, sustainability and environmental issues were there 57 00:03:11,929 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: but not as fashionable as it is today. 58 00:03:14,949 --> 00:03:17,198 Speaker 1: So you you took the jump. Tell me about those 59 00:03:17,210 --> 00:03:19,660 Speaker 1: early days. What kind of challenges did you face? What 60 00:03:19,669 --> 00:03:20,710 Speaker 1: kind of learning curve did you 61 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,168 Speaker 2: have? Well, we started with a very simple set up. 62 00:03:25,179 --> 00:03:27,538 Speaker 2: We were a very small team on that Kong. We 63 00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:28,690 Speaker 2: had simple tools. 64 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:33,619 Speaker 2: The biggest challenge initially for any micro agriculture is to 65 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:38,229 Speaker 2: keep the culture alive. Those cultures tend to crash, there 66 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,130 Speaker 2: are lots of contaminants in the air. And in particular, 67 00:03:41,139 --> 00:03:43,149 Speaker 2: if you want to work with an open concept with 68 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: an open process and not a closed one, which is 69 00:03:45,729 --> 00:03:49,220 Speaker 2: a much more expensive, then that's the major challenge, keep 70 00:03:49,229 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: the algae alive. 71 00:03:50,570 --> 00:03:54,169 Speaker 2: And the other challenge was the environment at the time, 72 00:03:54,179 --> 00:03:57,369 Speaker 2: you remember fracking became very strong in the US, oil 73 00:03:57,380 --> 00:04:00,649 Speaker 2: prices went down. So the idea to have biofuels from 74 00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:06,330 Speaker 2: microalgae was commercially not really viable. And I must admit 75 00:04:06,339 --> 00:04:10,130 Speaker 2: we also missed the connection to the big players in 76 00:04:10,139 --> 00:04:10,929 Speaker 2: the industry. 77 00:04:11,339 --> 00:04:14,750 Speaker 2: So concurrently with that challenge. S fa the Singapore Food 78 00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:16,928 Speaker 2: Agency came to us and said, look guys, it's great 79 00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: what you're doing here with your micro on a fish farm. 80 00:04:19,510 --> 00:04:22,950 Speaker 2: But in order to keep the fish farm license alive, 81 00:04:22,959 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 2: you have to produce fish. And that was the start 82 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:29,940 Speaker 2: in the next endeavor. That again, we jumped in and 83 00:04:29,950 --> 00:04:34,950 Speaker 2: we were kind of in the same in the same spot. Uh, 84 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: a source for protein, 85 00:04:37,269 --> 00:04:40,570 Speaker 2: not energy, but at least a source of protein. And 86 00:04:40,579 --> 00:04:43,190 Speaker 2: we were keen to do it. But from the beginning, 87 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,089 Speaker 2: we knew we wanted to do it differently, 88 00:04:45,869 --> 00:04:48,618 Speaker 2: at least differently how it's been done in Singapore, the 89 00:04:48,630 --> 00:04:52,220 Speaker 2: traditional farming, we knew that that was probably not the 90 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:55,659 Speaker 2: way to be successful in the long run. 91 00:04:56,350 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 1: So tell me about those learnings around sort of the 92 00:04:58,809 --> 00:05:01,929 Speaker 1: pivot toward fish farming. Ok? You get a nudge from 93 00:05:01,940 --> 00:05:04,989 Speaker 1: the public sector. Uh and it's sort of necessary that 94 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,089 Speaker 1: you have to do it to maintain the license. But still, 95 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:10,380 Speaker 1: I mean, what do you guys know about fish farming 96 00:05:10,390 --> 00:05:13,170 Speaker 2: at that time? Well, we didn't know much but we had, 97 00:05:13,178 --> 00:05:15,929 Speaker 2: we had gen sets on that Kong, we had pumps, 98 00:05:15,940 --> 00:05:19,850 Speaker 2: we had filters, we had also floating containers for those algae. 99 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:23,089 Speaker 2: And we thought initially it cannot be that difficult now 100 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:25,390 Speaker 2: to put lots of fish. In addition in there. 101 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,659 Speaker 2: And very early, actually, in 2013, we developed that concept, 102 00:05:30,750 --> 00:05:34,420 Speaker 2: we didn't develop it, but we propagated it in Singapore, 103 00:05:34,428 --> 00:05:38,809 Speaker 2: that concept of closed containment systems, meaning you have a 104 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:43,700 Speaker 2: tank or any vessel, so to speak for the fish 105 00:05:43,750 --> 00:05:46,700 Speaker 2: where you define the conditions of the water and you 106 00:05:46,709 --> 00:05:49,589 Speaker 2: don't rely on the outside water. And that was something 107 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,339 Speaker 2: that our algae and our fish processes had in common. 108 00:05:54,670 --> 00:05:58,329 Speaker 2: So basically, we tried to keep, argue on the back burner, 109 00:05:58,420 --> 00:06:03,369 Speaker 2: but continue with fish. And then of course, fish became 110 00:06:03,380 --> 00:06:08,209 Speaker 2: something you could immediately sell and you had income. So 111 00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: we continued doing both. But I guess the fish part 112 00:06:12,769 --> 00:06:13,850 Speaker 2: was more promising 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,690 Speaker 1: lots to talk about on the fish side. But I 114 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:18,959 Speaker 1: just want to ask Lydia even before we talk about 115 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:22,309 Speaker 1: your brand. So you were watching this thing happen and 116 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: all this discussion on micro algae and so on, what 117 00:06:25,170 --> 00:06:27,130 Speaker 1: was your take? I mean, did you think that this 118 00:06:27,140 --> 00:06:29,959 Speaker 1: had promises just in the context of fish or there 119 00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:33,909 Speaker 1: were other potential? Well, we started with just algae. So 120 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: the the 121 00:06:36,109 --> 00:06:42,250 Speaker 1: pivoting to fish was uh was something new for me and, 122 00:06:42,260 --> 00:06:45,119 Speaker 1: and we had, we had no background in fish whatsoever. 123 00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:48,969 Speaker 1: But I, I um I felt, I felt that the 124 00:06:48,980 --> 00:06:52,690 Speaker 1: Michael Fey man and Derek could handle the situation because 125 00:06:54,450 --> 00:06:56,829 Speaker 1: how hard is it to rear some bitch? This is 126 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,709 Speaker 1: what we thought. Can it be that difficult? So I 127 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,649 Speaker 1: thought I was gung ho about it. And also at 128 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:05,589 Speaker 1: this point in time, the reason also for the pivot is, um, 129 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,149 Speaker 1: there was an algae bloom 130 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:10,450 Speaker 1: um, in those years and we were the only one 131 00:07:10,459 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: left with fish alive. Many of the farmers in that 132 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,260 Speaker 1: in the surrounding area had lost their stock. So the 133 00:07:17,269 --> 00:07:19,559 Speaker 1: government was then knocking on our door and saying, well, 134 00:07:19,570 --> 00:07:22,750 Speaker 1: how could it be that you guys still have live 135 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:28,380 Speaker 1: fish given the circumstances? So, um I was uh so 136 00:07:28,390 --> 00:07:30,839 Speaker 1: when it comes to the fish, III I had no 137 00:07:30,850 --> 00:07:33,670 Speaker 1: qualms that they would be able to create something in that, 138 00:07:33,679 --> 00:07:36,230 Speaker 1: in that environment, in that space. And during this period, 139 00:07:36,309 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: you were busy with face market. 140 00:07:37,850 --> 00:07:38,899 Speaker 1: Exactly. Well, 141 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,329 Speaker 1: it all slightly later straits market happened because of the 142 00:07:44,339 --> 00:07:47,510 Speaker 1: fish because I was sick and tired of having everybody 143 00:07:47,519 --> 00:07:51,230 Speaker 1: come over for coffee to pick up the fish because 144 00:07:51,239 --> 00:07:52,029 Speaker 1: I became 145 00:07:52,380 --> 00:07:55,290 Speaker 1: the fish farmer's wife. So they would come over to 146 00:07:55,299 --> 00:07:58,799 Speaker 1: the house, either I had to offer wine or coffee. 147 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:00,549 Speaker 1: And I said, you know what, I can't do this 148 00:08:00,559 --> 00:08:02,709 Speaker 1: every day. So I set up an Ecommerce site. I 149 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: was used to selling anyway, I said this is a 150 00:08:04,489 --> 00:08:06,589 Speaker 1: new venue. And at that time in 215, there weren't 151 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,279 Speaker 1: that many on in that space as well. So I said, let's, 152 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: I'll try, I'll, I'll take a dab at, at Ecommerce 153 00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:16,859 Speaker 1: and I, I started the Ecommerce site and then it 154 00:08:16,869 --> 00:08:19,029 Speaker 1: just grew from there because others didn't just want to 155 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: buy fish. They also wanted 156 00:08:21,089 --> 00:08:25,380 Speaker 1: in one in one basket have some vegetables included, some meats, 157 00:08:25,390 --> 00:08:27,429 Speaker 1: included some chicken and everything. Had to be in the 158 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,549 Speaker 1: same ethos. Um, um, and mission as our fish, which 159 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: was no hormones. No, um, no growth hormones, no antibiotics. 160 00:08:38,450 --> 00:08:40,819 Speaker 1: And we thought we would try to be as organic 161 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:44,020 Speaker 1: as possible. So, um, it should have, it should reflect 162 00:08:44,030 --> 00:08:45,619 Speaker 1: the same ethos that 163 00:08:45,729 --> 00:08:49,609 Speaker 1: we were working on with our uh fish farm. Ok. Yeah. 164 00:08:49,669 --> 00:08:52,030 Speaker 1: So these guys are running a fish farm. You were 165 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:57,030 Speaker 1: running your Ecommerce platform and now seems like a few 166 00:08:57,039 --> 00:08:59,069 Speaker 1: years later you make this pivot and now you're working 167 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: on this new concept called alchemy. So let's talk about 168 00:09:02,690 --> 00:09:06,699 Speaker 1: that journey. So it started with um a friend of mine, 169 00:09:06,710 --> 00:09:09,650 Speaker 1: a dear friend and also a serial entrepreneur. Her name 170 00:09:09,659 --> 00:09:14,099 Speaker 1: is Koi and she and I were looking at this 171 00:09:14,109 --> 00:09:14,710 Speaker 1: algae 172 00:09:16,169 --> 00:09:18,609 Speaker 1: at first. Um and thinking it would be great to 173 00:09:18,619 --> 00:09:20,530 Speaker 1: make a bath out of the algae. 174 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,659 Speaker 1: But of course, you can't just slather algae on you. 175 00:09:24,669 --> 00:09:26,530 Speaker 1: You have to extract the algae, 176 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:30,239 Speaker 1: get the, the richness of the omegas that are in 177 00:09:30,250 --> 00:09:34,130 Speaker 1: the algae and then be able to use it. Um 178 00:09:34,460 --> 00:09:35,130 Speaker 1: So 179 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:40,358 Speaker 1: she comes from the point that she always wanted effective 180 00:09:40,369 --> 00:09:41,039 Speaker 1: clean 181 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,539 Speaker 1: um beauty creams and 182 00:09:45,369 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: that's why she was interested in the algae. I come 183 00:09:48,010 --> 00:09:51,789 Speaker 1: from the point from the angle where I wanted to 184 00:09:51,799 --> 00:09:56,229 Speaker 1: find a use for our algae since it's going into 185 00:09:56,369 --> 00:10:00,250 Speaker 1: uh they're pivoting into fish farming. It's a shame to 186 00:10:00,260 --> 00:10:03,059 Speaker 1: have gone so far with the algae and not do 187 00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:06,570 Speaker 1: anything with it, especially if there's so much interest in my, 188 00:10:06,580 --> 00:10:10,919 Speaker 1: my girlfriend um who already expressed interest. And then also 189 00:10:10,929 --> 00:10:13,590 Speaker 1: we had a third angle coming in which was the 190 00:10:13,599 --> 00:10:14,700 Speaker 1: scientist Dr Sergei. 191 00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:20,829 Speaker 1: And he through sat, who was working with SAT, he 192 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:27,219 Speaker 1: had an encapsulating technology which was innovative and um I 193 00:10:27,229 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: would say it's the only one in, in that sense 194 00:10:30,090 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: of what he had achieved. Um And so we thought 195 00:10:33,729 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: my girlfriend and I would this be a great opportunity, 196 00:10:36,969 --> 00:10:39,429 Speaker 1: a fortuitous opportunity for all three of us to come 197 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,590 Speaker 1: together and do something with the algae that can be 198 00:10:42,599 --> 00:10:43,750 Speaker 1: encapsulated 199 00:10:44,090 --> 00:10:46,919 Speaker 1: into a stable form to later be put into a 200 00:10:46,929 --> 00:10:48,468 Speaker 1: cream that we can use. 201 00:10:49,119 --> 00:10:51,260 Speaker 1: Um And so that's how 202 00:10:52,489 --> 00:10:55,829 Speaker 1: our, our, the three of us came together to create 203 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,069 Speaker 1: this Almy. And, but this is a work in progress. 204 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,190 Speaker 1: When I go to your website, some products are available 205 00:11:02,429 --> 00:11:02,669 Speaker 1: in the pipeline. 206 00:11:05,359 --> 00:11:07,329 Speaker 1: Uh I'll be straightforward with you. 207 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,409 Speaker 1: This is a completely new ingredient. There is nothing on 208 00:11:11,419 --> 00:11:15,459 Speaker 1: this planet like it. We are the first to have 209 00:11:15,469 --> 00:11:18,700 Speaker 1: been able to encapsulate the omega three 210 00:11:19,429 --> 00:11:21,459 Speaker 1: and make it into 211 00:11:22,210 --> 00:11:25,650 Speaker 1: an ingredient. And now we've been struggling for the last 212 00:11:25,659 --> 00:11:29,030 Speaker 1: four years even through COVID to make sure that it's 213 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:34,539 Speaker 1: a stable product and we've been tweaking and tweaking and therefore, 214 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: um we have the products coming on board, but we're 215 00:11:39,090 --> 00:11:42,580 Speaker 1: also doing trials and making sure that it stays stable 216 00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:46,299 Speaker 1: and that it can be um rolled out to, to 217 00:11:46,309 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: the bigger consumer. I, I remember talking to you about 218 00:11:49,890 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: this the first time and you said that, well, you know, 219 00:11:52,090 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 1: people take omega three as a fish protein or a 220 00:11:55,609 --> 00:11:59,739 Speaker 1: fish byproduct's but the fish eat the algae to create 221 00:11:59,750 --> 00:12:00,780 Speaker 1: the proteins. 222 00:12:00,869 --> 00:12:03,010 Speaker 1: Why don't we just go to the source? I like 223 00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:06,849 Speaker 1: your characterization very much. I think our listeners have picked 224 00:12:06,859 --> 00:12:08,809 Speaker 1: up the fact that when I was talking about this 225 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:11,859 Speaker 1: with Dirk, we were using the word algae and when 226 00:12:11,869 --> 00:12:14,210 Speaker 1: we talked to Lia, we were saying algae, I think 227 00:12:14,219 --> 00:12:17,530 Speaker 1: it's interchangeable. We can use both. So don't change Dirk. 228 00:12:17,539 --> 00:12:21,969 Speaker 1: Stay with Algi. Thank you. So let's talk a little 229 00:12:21,979 --> 00:12:24,530 Speaker 1: bit about the point that I sort of picked up 230 00:12:24,539 --> 00:12:26,390 Speaker 1: on lilia. But I would like a little more elaboration 231 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:26,770 Speaker 1: which is 232 00:12:27,460 --> 00:12:30,830 Speaker 1: looking at micro algae or creating a fish farm or 233 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,409 Speaker 1: even the cosmetics part. You are all coming from this 234 00:12:33,419 --> 00:12:36,119 Speaker 1: angle of the E part of the ESG that you 235 00:12:36,130 --> 00:12:39,530 Speaker 1: want things that are more sustainable or organic or better 236 00:12:39,539 --> 00:12:41,539 Speaker 1: for us. So let's talk a little bit about the 237 00:12:41,549 --> 00:12:43,359 Speaker 1: fish farming aspect in the ESG side. 238 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,450 Speaker 2: Well, eg of course is everywhere now. And if you 239 00:12:47,460 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 2: look at the environment in fish farming, you think of pollution, 240 00:12:50,450 --> 00:12:53,929 Speaker 2: you think of discharge, you think of carbon footprint, but 241 00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:56,299 Speaker 2: you also think of fresh water use and land use. 242 00:12:56,309 --> 00:12:58,900 Speaker 2: So from the beginning, we wanted to do something without 243 00:12:58,909 --> 00:13:02,419 Speaker 2: fresh water. We wanted to use seawater. It's infinitely available 244 00:13:02,429 --> 00:13:05,569 Speaker 2: on this planet. And we also wanted to avoid land 245 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:09,069 Speaker 2: use because in particular, in Singapore, it's pretty expensive. So 246 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:10,179 Speaker 2: that was not an option. 247 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:16,349 Speaker 2: So these issues are everywhere. And if you, if you have, 248 00:13:16,630 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: if you want to be successful, you have to master them. 249 00:13:19,210 --> 00:13:22,429 Speaker 2: And the most important aspect for us right now is 250 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,510 Speaker 2: zero waste farming. We have to avoid discharge into the 251 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,169 Speaker 2: surrounding water. We are a near shore operator. We have 252 00:13:29,179 --> 00:13:33,250 Speaker 2: floating fish farms in a closed containment, closed containment means 253 00:13:33,260 --> 00:13:37,059 Speaker 2: the fish are in tanks where we control the water quality, 254 00:13:37,119 --> 00:13:40,549 Speaker 2: but we want to avoid any discharge in the surrounding waters. 255 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,119 Speaker 2: And the other aspect, we want to be carbon neutral, 256 00:13:45,130 --> 00:13:49,650 Speaker 2: carbon neutral aquaculture is possible if you combine solar power 257 00:13:49,659 --> 00:13:54,859 Speaker 2: generation with fish farming, both solar power generation and fish 258 00:13:54,869 --> 00:13:59,978 Speaker 2: farming need huge horizontal spaces. The space on buildings is 259 00:13:59,989 --> 00:14:03,869 Speaker 2: not enough for solar farming. You want big spaces. And 260 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,260 Speaker 2: therefore if we have a connection to the power grid, 261 00:14:06,539 --> 00:14:08,848 Speaker 2: we can use on sunny days, 262 00:14:09,340 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: the additional energy that we generate to feed into the 263 00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: grid and during the night and rainy days, we can, 264 00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:21,929 Speaker 2: we can get power from the grid. And obviously that 265 00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: way we avoid burning fossil fuels and we avoid storage, 266 00:14:26,090 --> 00:14:29,859 Speaker 2: which is possible but costly. And I mean fish farming 267 00:14:29,869 --> 00:14:32,940 Speaker 2: or farming in general is not a business where high 268 00:14:32,950 --> 00:14:35,299 Speaker 2: margins are the norm. So you have to be very, 269 00:14:35,309 --> 00:14:38,030 Speaker 2: very careful with your costs. And that's why this is 270 00:14:38,039 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: an important factor. 271 00:14:39,859 --> 00:14:42,559 Speaker 2: But let me also add the SS and the G 272 00:14:42,570 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: to the question from a social point of view. All 273 00:14:45,650 --> 00:14:48,940 Speaker 2: the farms here in Singapore have foreign workers from Myanmar 274 00:14:48,950 --> 00:14:52,030 Speaker 2: or other countries. They leave families and kids behind, they 275 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:54,229 Speaker 2: work here for years. One of our workers is here 276 00:14:54,239 --> 00:14:58,239 Speaker 2: for 10 years now, uninterrupted, so to speak, it's very 277 00:14:58,250 --> 00:15:00,500 Speaker 2: difficult for them to go back to Myanmar due to 278 00:15:00,510 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: the political situation. 279 00:15:02,219 --> 00:15:04,330 Speaker 2: So in the long run, we have to ask ourselves 280 00:15:04,340 --> 00:15:07,020 Speaker 2: if that is a sustainable component. So what we are 281 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:09,789 Speaker 2: trying to do is we are trying to have much 282 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,340 Speaker 2: more interesting jobs in aqua culture, not the traditional view 283 00:15:13,349 --> 00:15:17,859 Speaker 2: of a fish farm worker. And therefore we attract other people, 284 00:15:18,260 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: younger people with 285 00:15:19,849 --> 00:15:23,789 Speaker 2: education, aquaculture that bring different skills. We do a lot 286 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:28,049 Speaker 2: with data, computers, et cetera. So we are also changing 287 00:15:28,059 --> 00:15:31,429 Speaker 2: the face of of of the jobs that we can 288 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 2: offer in that sector. And that is clearly a social component. 289 00:15:35,419 --> 00:15:39,909 Speaker 2: And finally, if you look at farming, compared with its alternatives, 290 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,229 Speaker 2: of course, farming can be better regulated and monitored than 291 00:15:43,239 --> 00:15:44,659 Speaker 2: for example, fisheries 292 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,099 Speaker 2: that go and over fish, the oceans with all the 293 00:15:48,109 --> 00:15:51,849 Speaker 2: side effects actually also socially for the people working there. 294 00:15:51,859 --> 00:15:53,380 Speaker 2: It's often no fun 295 00:15:54,179 --> 00:15:58,020 Speaker 2: and therefore from a governance point of view. We believe 296 00:15:58,030 --> 00:16:01,820 Speaker 2: that farming has also advantages and needs to be properly 297 00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:05,159 Speaker 2: handled the regulation and the monitoring. Of course, during the 298 00:16:05,169 --> 00:16:06,630 Speaker 1: last time we met, I told you that I had 299 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,210 Speaker 1: watched CSPI on Netflix and I 300 00:16:09,309 --> 00:16:12,130 Speaker 1: feel like not eating fish ever again. And you told me, well, 301 00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:14,359 Speaker 1: I'm solving that for you through my fish farm. 302 00:16:14,469 --> 00:16:16,950 Speaker 2: That's true. And I'm also not a great fan of, 303 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,059 Speaker 2: of uh, of that show actually because uh it's, it's 304 00:16:21,070 --> 00:16:25,450 Speaker 2: rather superficial in its approach to the problems. But I mean, 305 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:27,359 Speaker 2: it's out there and some of the concerns of course, 306 00:16:27,369 --> 00:16:30,130 Speaker 2: are valid, but some are exaggerated. And I think we 307 00:16:30,140 --> 00:16:31,479 Speaker 2: need a little bit more 308 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:34,919 Speaker 2: in depth discussion about these aspects to to come to 309 00:16:34,929 --> 00:16:35,630 Speaker 2: grips with them. 310 00:16:36,190 --> 00:16:38,140 Speaker 1: Um I want to follow up on something that you 311 00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:40,179 Speaker 1: discussed earlier. I haven't had the pleasure of visiting your 312 00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:43,169 Speaker 1: farm yet, but since you mentioned that you have solar 313 00:16:43,179 --> 00:16:45,789 Speaker 1: cells producing electricity and a fish farm. So will I 314 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:48,460 Speaker 1: see a body of water that is covered by solar cells? 315 00:16:48,469 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: Is that what I will 316 00:16:48,969 --> 00:16:52,169 Speaker 2: see? You see a roof? Actually, you see four roofs 317 00:16:52,179 --> 00:16:55,039 Speaker 2: of our four farms that are completely covered with solar 318 00:16:55,049 --> 00:17:00,349 Speaker 2: panels and we have around 0.8 megawatt peak capacity. 319 00:17:00,650 --> 00:17:04,949 Speaker 2: So that's, that's already quite something. But unfortunately, we can 320 00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:08,709 Speaker 2: only afford storage, battery storage that gives us around two 321 00:17:08,719 --> 00:17:15,889 Speaker 2: hours without sun of running our energy intensive processes. And 322 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:19,420 Speaker 2: and and therefore we are very keen to get that 323 00:17:19,430 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: connection to the, to the grid. 324 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,650 Speaker 1: I, I can't wait to go come for a visit. 325 00:17:24,660 --> 00:17:25,420 Speaker 1: One of these days, 326 00:17:25,709 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: any time, you're more than welcome. Right 327 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,819 Speaker 1: now, your 10 year journey also had 2.5 years of 328 00:17:30,829 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: very peculiar phase, which is the pandemic. How do you 329 00:17:33,650 --> 00:17:35,419 Speaker 1: manage during that time? Actually, 330 00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:39,219 Speaker 2: we were doing well because uh people shifted from going 331 00:17:39,229 --> 00:17:42,430 Speaker 2: out for dinner to ordering online and we had both 332 00:17:42,439 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: to offer as we, as we just discussed. And 333 00:17:45,530 --> 00:17:49,319 Speaker 2: uh we, we, we had actually a good time and 334 00:17:49,329 --> 00:17:52,270 Speaker 2: we were also an essential service. So our work continued. 335 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,669 Speaker 2: We hardly noticed that there was a pandemic except that 336 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,899 Speaker 2: the roads were always empty when we went to work, 337 00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: which was, which was quite eerie. But, but we had 338 00:17:59,930 --> 00:18:03,449 Speaker 2: a good time. Uh What we did learn is um 339 00:18:03,459 --> 00:18:05,630 Speaker 2: two things I would say, um 340 00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:10,780 Speaker 2: the last mile delivery is critical from a point of cost. 341 00:18:10,859 --> 00:18:14,420 Speaker 2: And also, especially when you have, when you have perishable goods, 342 00:18:14,430 --> 00:18:19,609 Speaker 2: you need refrigerated trucks, et cetera. So, route planning and 343 00:18:19,619 --> 00:18:22,849 Speaker 2: also sizable orders. That's why we didn't only sell fish 344 00:18:22,859 --> 00:18:25,688 Speaker 2: but also other things to make the basket bigger and 345 00:18:25,699 --> 00:18:29,750 Speaker 2: more valuable that's critical. And the other thing that was 346 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,489 Speaker 2: clear to all and affected us immediately indirectly uh showed 347 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:36,089 Speaker 2: how 348 00:18:36,719 --> 00:18:42,500 Speaker 2: vulnerable Singapore a country which imports 98% of its food 349 00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:46,300 Speaker 2: from overseas becomes in a pandemic. And now think about 350 00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: political issue or even a military escalation. So it became 351 00:18:51,369 --> 00:18:55,339 Speaker 2: clear that the supply of food cannot be always taken 352 00:18:55,349 --> 00:18:56,129 Speaker 2: for granted. 353 00:18:56,369 --> 00:18:59,430 Speaker 2: And I may go a step further. The supply of 354 00:18:59,439 --> 00:19:03,649 Speaker 2: cheap food from our neighboring countries in the case of 355 00:19:03,660 --> 00:19:07,429 Speaker 2: fish can also not be taken for granted. Will it 356 00:19:07,439 --> 00:19:10,619 Speaker 2: always be delivered? Will it always be that cheap? Is 357 00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:14,790 Speaker 2: it always available? So the issue of food security, 358 00:19:15,089 --> 00:19:19,729 Speaker 2: it's not a luxury, it's mandatory from a safety point 359 00:19:19,739 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: of view. And that's what's what's happening now. And I 360 00:19:22,369 --> 00:19:24,849 Speaker 2: think that's a lesson we all learned. I'm not speaking 361 00:19:24,859 --> 00:19:27,890 Speaker 2: for the government, but I think it's, it's common sense now. Yeah, 362 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,909 Speaker 1: absolutely. Let's put some numbers. Give me a sense of 363 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:31,989 Speaker 1: the 364 00:19:32,099 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: scale of your operation. What is your production like? And 365 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: what are your targets in the coming years? So 366 00:19:37,170 --> 00:19:41,859 Speaker 2: we are currently having a capacity for 752,000 tons per 367 00:19:41,869 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: year of fish. We mainly produce Barramundi and hybrid grouper, 368 00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:49,810 Speaker 2: but we are also venturing into other species. But our 369 00:19:49,819 --> 00:19:53,188 Speaker 2: real target is something else. We want to create scale 370 00:19:53,199 --> 00:19:56,438 Speaker 2: that really makes us competitive in Singapore. Because fish farming 371 00:19:56,449 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 2: at that scale is not competitive, 372 00:19:58,829 --> 00:20:03,729 Speaker 2: competitive scale is starting in a couple of 1000 tons 373 00:20:03,739 --> 00:20:07,699 Speaker 2: tons per year output. You have economies of scale, you 374 00:20:07,709 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: have shared services and you also justify the connection to 375 00:20:12,689 --> 00:20:15,909 Speaker 2: the power grid, which is of course an investment. So 376 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: we are promoting that concept of a scale up farm 377 00:20:20,689 --> 00:20:23,619 Speaker 2: like ours, which is not only there for us, but 378 00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:29,430 Speaker 2: which would also offer operators as tenants that can come 379 00:20:29,439 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: in and, and rent a farm unit. But we would 380 00:20:32,130 --> 00:20:35,660 Speaker 2: make sure that the processes, the set up is proper 381 00:20:35,670 --> 00:20:38,938 Speaker 2: and they can operate and produce the fish there so 382 00:20:38,949 --> 00:20:41,849 Speaker 2: that we are not on our own with, for example, 383 00:20:41,859 --> 00:20:43,379 Speaker 2: that infrastructure investment. 384 00:20:43,849 --> 00:20:46,949 Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, our plan is to 385 00:20:47,050 --> 00:20:49,379 Speaker 2: and then that's also happening. There's a lot of money 386 00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:55,469 Speaker 2: right now that is given to science and research around aquaculture. 387 00:20:55,770 --> 00:21:00,140 Speaker 2: And we want to have focused research that really benefits 388 00:21:00,150 --> 00:21:04,390 Speaker 2: what we are doing in nutrition, in vaccination, in the 389 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,829 Speaker 2: analytic analytics of the water microbiome of the water, also 390 00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:11,420 Speaker 2: of the fish. And we want, we want to take 391 00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:13,109 Speaker 2: advantage of that. And with that, 392 00:21:13,550 --> 00:21:19,810 Speaker 2: we want to create solutions that are scalable and sellable. 393 00:21:19,989 --> 00:21:22,780 Speaker 2: So we are not actually a fish farm only. Of course, 394 00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:25,109 Speaker 2: we produce fish. But what we want to do is 395 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,109 Speaker 2: we want to sell plug and play farms, the complete 396 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,770 Speaker 2: concept including the combination of fish farming and solar farming 397 00:21:32,780 --> 00:21:33,569 Speaker 2: as a package. 398 00:21:33,890 --> 00:21:36,300 Speaker 2: And that is interesting in the Middle East that is 399 00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: interesting in the region and the start should be in 400 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,899 Speaker 2: Singapore and that's what we are working on. That's our 401 00:21:41,910 --> 00:21:42,750 Speaker 2: real target. 402 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,420 Speaker 1: That's awesome, very ambitious but not a bunch of follow 403 00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:49,010 Speaker 1: ups because I have so many questions on what you said. Firstly, 404 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:52,050 Speaker 1: when you were talking about the 700 tons or so 405 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:55,109 Speaker 1: annual production, give me a sense in terms of relative 406 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,729 Speaker 1: to Singapore's total consumption a 407 00:21:56,739 --> 00:21:57,869 Speaker 2: year. So 408 00:21:58,380 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: Singapore is importing in total seafood, fresh and frozen. About 409 00:22:04,689 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: 130,000 tons 410 00:22:07,310 --> 00:22:11,770 Speaker 2: of that fish, I would assume is about 60,000 tons 411 00:22:12,530 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: that is split to a degree into fresh and frozen 412 00:22:17,089 --> 00:22:20,349 Speaker 2: of that produced in Singapore at the moment is something 413 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,430 Speaker 2: like 5 to 7000 tons, including some trading where you 414 00:22:24,449 --> 00:22:27,139 Speaker 2: where you bring in uh mid size fish that you 415 00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:29,910 Speaker 2: grow out here later. So part of it is imported. 416 00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:36,849 Speaker 2: So our 1000 compared to the local production are meaningful. 417 00:22:36,859 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 2: But in terms of where we are the total need, 418 00:22:40,729 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: we are nowhere. And if you think 30 by 30 419 00:22:42,569 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: my argument is always 420 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:46,849 Speaker 2: if you want to achieve in the specific conditions of Singapore, 421 00:22:46,859 --> 00:22:50,510 Speaker 2: 30 by 30 fish, the one thing that you can 422 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: really produce here has to be higher than 30%. So 423 00:22:53,810 --> 00:22:57,379 Speaker 2: the average becomes 30. So we are talking as a 424 00:22:57,390 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: as an aspirational target about 30,000 tons per year or something. 425 00:23:02,219 --> 00:23:04,949 Speaker 2: And that scale up that we are currently aiming at 426 00:23:04,959 --> 00:23:09,219 Speaker 2: is to produce 2.5 to 3000 tons as a first step. 427 00:23:09,229 --> 00:23:11,510 Speaker 2: But we are open to do more. We are open 428 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,250 Speaker 2: for business. 429 00:23:13,449 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: You can realistically visualize right now capacity to produce 3000. 430 00:23:18,530 --> 00:23:21,030 Speaker 2: Absolutely. We just have to build the plant and the 431 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,550 Speaker 2: farms and the farm to build, cost you 6 to 432 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 2: 9 months and then it's a bit of a run in, 433 00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:28,849 Speaker 2: but we have done it now four times. So 434 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:33,419 Speaker 2: it's, it's only money and time that is required. 435 00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:37,129 Speaker 1: But 30,000 would that require a complete reorientation of Singapore? 436 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:41,780 Speaker 2: Not necessarily, you just need over time, much more of 437 00:23:41,790 --> 00:23:45,579 Speaker 2: what we call these parks. So one park can produce 438 00:23:45,589 --> 00:23:48,780 Speaker 2: 2.5 1000 tons. It's a concept that is completely drawn 439 00:23:48,790 --> 00:23:51,810 Speaker 2: out with all the drawings, with all the connections of 440 00:23:51,819 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: whatever you need, not only for energy, also for feed, 441 00:23:55,290 --> 00:23:57,379 Speaker 2: for oxygen, for water, for whatever. 442 00:23:57,869 --> 00:24:01,609 Speaker 2: So you, you if you want to produce 30,000 tons, 443 00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:03,209 Speaker 2: you need a couple of those and it will take 444 00:24:03,219 --> 00:24:06,369 Speaker 2: some time, but it is possible if we want that. 445 00:24:06,819 --> 00:24:10,290 Speaker 1: OK. Now, you mentioned also that you would like to 446 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:12,938 Speaker 1: make your technology and your system available for others to 447 00:24:12,949 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: come and work and produce fish as well. Is it 448 00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 1: almost like a franchise 449 00:24:16,729 --> 00:24:18,569 Speaker 2: model? Is that something like that? Yes, we want to 450 00:24:18,579 --> 00:24:22,060 Speaker 2: separate the ownership of the asset, so to speak and 451 00:24:22,069 --> 00:24:23,459 Speaker 2: also the operator and we don't 452 00:24:23,555 --> 00:24:26,055 Speaker 2: want to be the only operator. We want to, we want, 453 00:24:26,064 --> 00:24:31,333 Speaker 2: we offer a farming solution for Singapore in this context 454 00:24:31,545 --> 00:24:34,094 Speaker 2: where we want others to participate in or have the 455 00:24:34,104 --> 00:24:37,405 Speaker 2: ability to participate in. And there's a lot of transformation 456 00:24:37,415 --> 00:24:41,035 Speaker 2: in the industry, traditional farmers leaving their farms, uh uh 457 00:24:41,045 --> 00:24:45,055 Speaker 2: you know, given the license back but they understand fish. 458 00:24:45,515 --> 00:24:48,694 Speaker 2: Uh and, and they, they, they, they have, you know, 459 00:24:48,704 --> 00:24:51,614 Speaker 2: they have an to the industry. 460 00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:55,629 Speaker 2: So maybe we can help them, we can train them, 461 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,390 Speaker 2: we can give a helping hand in running that. But 462 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,688 Speaker 2: we make them responsible for one farm unit which can produce, 463 00:25:01,699 --> 00:25:05,429 Speaker 2: let's say 250,000 tons per year. That would be their baby. 464 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,089 Speaker 2: We are helping them that it runs. We do, we 465 00:25:08,099 --> 00:25:12,540 Speaker 2: do the back up. We do whatever is required, but 466 00:25:12,550 --> 00:25:16,989 Speaker 2: it's their responsibility. What species the husband is under their control, 467 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,619 Speaker 2: they feed the fish, they harvest the fish, they do 468 00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:22,260 Speaker 2: all this around, whatever is required around the fish and 469 00:25:22,270 --> 00:25:24,900 Speaker 2: we make sure we do everything around the technology. 470 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: Well, good luck with that. I mean, I think that 471 00:25:26,930 --> 00:25:29,540 Speaker 1: could be a very good galvanizing factor for a wider 472 00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:33,170 Speaker 1: community instead of just one group of people pursuing the 473 00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:33,819 Speaker 1: same model 474 00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:38,410 Speaker 1: Derek. Once I read somewhere, uh Michael, we saying that 475 00:25:38,729 --> 00:25:41,670 Speaker 1: uh SAT is not just a fish farming place, but 476 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,459 Speaker 1: it's also a data farming place. So explain to me 477 00:25:44,469 --> 00:25:45,989 Speaker 1: what that means. Well, 478 00:25:46,329 --> 00:25:49,149 Speaker 2: fish farming is very complex. It sounds easy and we 479 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,069 Speaker 2: thought it was easy, but actually, it's a little bit 480 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:52,069 Speaker 2: more complicated. 481 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: Um It's, you need deep knowledge of chemistry, biology and 482 00:25:57,530 --> 00:26:00,449 Speaker 2: the interplay and you also need to know exactly what's 483 00:26:00,459 --> 00:26:03,069 Speaker 2: happening in your water because fish are in water and 484 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: water carries the parasites, the pathogens, bacteria, viruses, et cetera. So, 485 00:26:08,530 --> 00:26:10,659 Speaker 2: what we're trying to do is we collect as many 486 00:26:10,670 --> 00:26:14,250 Speaker 2: data as possible. We have our IOT data from our 487 00:26:14,260 --> 00:26:17,489 Speaker 2: automation and and what we call a smart farm. Uh 488 00:26:17,510 --> 00:26:20,739 Speaker 2: We have many recordings, the water chemistry, 489 00:26:21,550 --> 00:26:26,130 Speaker 2: health observations and then we have oxygen levels, we have 490 00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 2: all kinds of environmental data from the point of the fish. 491 00:26:29,650 --> 00:26:32,930 Speaker 2: What is he surrounded with? And we also have of course, 492 00:26:32,939 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 2: the performance data which are mainly survival rate, growth rate 493 00:26:36,510 --> 00:26:39,229 Speaker 2: and feed conversion rate. And we put all this in 494 00:26:39,239 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 2: a data lake. 495 00:26:40,709 --> 00:26:42,810 Speaker 2: And first of all, we use the data lake which 496 00:26:42,819 --> 00:26:46,169 Speaker 2: is cloud based of course and and make the visualization 497 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 2: of our uh of of certain graphs and of certain 498 00:26:50,170 --> 00:26:54,099 Speaker 2: effects possible, right? So we have all our graphs. What 499 00:26:54,109 --> 00:26:57,329 Speaker 2: is our growth rate? What is our survival rate? What 500 00:26:57,339 --> 00:26:59,989 Speaker 2: is our feed conversion rate and all these things? But 501 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 2: more interestingly than that, we are looking at the what 502 00:27:04,209 --> 00:27:09,930 Speaker 2: if or why that? So the multifactorial outcome 503 00:27:10,199 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 2: that we have in a fish farm that's caused by 504 00:27:12,369 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 2: many factors. That is what we try to understand. So 505 00:27:15,969 --> 00:27:16,619 Speaker 2: we are doing, 506 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,699 Speaker 2: we put the data in the data lake to do 507 00:27:19,709 --> 00:27:23,050 Speaker 2: modern data analytics, of course, machine learning and all these 508 00:27:23,060 --> 00:27:26,449 Speaker 2: things supported and find patterns 509 00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:31,438 Speaker 2: that determine a certain outcome. And we do this in 510 00:27:31,449 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: order to be more productive and to be more successful. 511 00:27:35,369 --> 00:27:37,650 Speaker 2: And that is part of what we call, why we 512 00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 2: are an aquaculture platform and not only a fish farm 513 00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:44,790 Speaker 2: because we, we develop these software as a service products 514 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,500 Speaker 2: if you want that are an income stream and a 515 00:27:48,510 --> 00:27:51,420 Speaker 2: revenue potential in its own, right? But they are also 516 00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:55,149 Speaker 2: part of our platform that come together with the plug 517 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: and play farms and 518 00:27:58,180 --> 00:28:01,890 Speaker 2: bring the promise with it to be more successful. But 519 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: it's not, it's, it's not a tool where you press 520 00:28:05,010 --> 00:28:06,929 Speaker 2: the button and you get the output, you have to 521 00:28:06,939 --> 00:28:09,819 Speaker 2: work with it, you have to use it over time 522 00:28:09,829 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: and you have to learn together with it to understand 523 00:28:12,810 --> 00:28:15,510 Speaker 2: what's really happening. And that's what Michael meant when I 524 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,969 Speaker 2: said we are also data farmers and big data is 525 00:28:19,979 --> 00:28:23,530 Speaker 2: in everybody's. But you can, you get the idea that 526 00:28:23,540 --> 00:28:24,089 Speaker 2: we want to 527 00:28:24,569 --> 00:28:28,300 Speaker 2: develop into industry knowledge by finding out more and more 528 00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:30,969 Speaker 2: and more in particular if we are working at scale 529 00:28:30,979 --> 00:28:34,208 Speaker 2: and if others would buy our farms and we would 530 00:28:34,219 --> 00:28:37,790 Speaker 2: share the data from all those farms. We get smarter 531 00:28:38,199 --> 00:28:39,390 Speaker 2: as we speak. 532 00:28:39,550 --> 00:28:42,459 Speaker 1: I appreciate what you're saying. Data on its own is 533 00:28:42,469 --> 00:28:45,869 Speaker 1: not a panacea, but it can be very helpful if 534 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: it is collected on a systematic basis. I mean, we 535 00:28:47,770 --> 00:28:51,060 Speaker 1: see this in large scale industrial farming in the US. 536 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: You've got, you know, drone technology mapping fields and collecting 537 00:28:54,650 --> 00:28:57,500 Speaker 1: a lot of data and very advanced weather forecasting coming 538 00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:59,900 Speaker 1: in to figure out how much water the land needs. 539 00:29:00,030 --> 00:29:04,060 Speaker 1: But that is not 100% the solution. Even after all that, 540 00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 1: the farmer on the ground has to make certain adjustments 541 00:29:06,489 --> 00:29:09,020 Speaker 1: and that's what causes the farm to succeed. 542 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,670 Speaker 1: So I, I sort of appreciate that new one. So 543 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,109 Speaker 1: thank you for that. Um I've got a lot more 544 00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:15,780 Speaker 1: follows for you, but you gotta wait for a second 545 00:29:15,790 --> 00:29:17,599 Speaker 1: because I want to ask Lily a couple of questions 546 00:29:17,670 --> 00:29:22,180 Speaker 1: earlier from algae to skin care and the complexities associated 547 00:29:22,189 --> 00:29:23,420 Speaker 1: with that. You were talking about it. 548 00:29:24,079 --> 00:29:27,619 Speaker 1: What's the big deal with skincare? We, why is that 549 00:29:27,630 --> 00:29:31,349 Speaker 1: such a big industry? And why are you so interested 550 00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:31,829 Speaker 1: in that? 551 00:29:33,650 --> 00:29:38,270 Speaker 1: So skin care has always been important for women cosmetics, 552 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: skincare in general, but we're coming from an angle that 553 00:29:41,650 --> 00:29:45,670 Speaker 1: we want effective clean skin care. So I would say 554 00:29:45,729 --> 00:29:49,410 Speaker 1: we're looking for um which is also a trend lately 555 00:29:49,489 --> 00:29:53,510 Speaker 1: for green, clean skin care. And what does that mean? 556 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,849 Speaker 1: It means? Uh there's a ewg category that they, they 557 00:29:59,859 --> 00:30:02,689 Speaker 1: put you into and if you can score, 558 00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:05,790 Speaker 1: it's a score from 1 to 5, I think. And 559 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,810 Speaker 1: we try to be one in all the categories for 560 00:30:08,819 --> 00:30:11,619 Speaker 1: the types of chemicals we use and we try to 561 00:30:11,989 --> 00:30:17,219 Speaker 1: minimize as much as possible. So no phosphates, parabens, um 562 00:30:17,239 --> 00:30:20,670 Speaker 1: uh paraffin. So we try to be as clean as 563 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,060 Speaker 1: possible and 564 00:30:23,140 --> 00:30:27,750 Speaker 1: algae using algae using the omegas. It's, it's already a, 565 00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:29,359 Speaker 1: a green 566 00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: and, and natural ingredient that 567 00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 2: vegan 568 00:30:35,969 --> 00:30:40,239 Speaker 1: uh vegan blue. What does that mean? Ok, blue is marine. 569 00:30:40,709 --> 00:30:43,609 Speaker 1: At first we wanted to focus on something that's green 570 00:30:43,619 --> 00:30:47,670 Speaker 1: and clean. But the, but the blue is uh is 571 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,189 Speaker 1: now being used a lot this term. And we believe 572 00:30:51,199 --> 00:30:53,349 Speaker 1: that we can, we are also part of this blue 573 00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:56,599 Speaker 1: movement just because we're using algae. But there's even more, 574 00:30:57,265 --> 00:31:00,015 Speaker 1: but there's even more about this algae. That, that, that 575 00:31:00,025 --> 00:31:04,614 Speaker 1: is uh the blue movement means it means protecting the 576 00:31:04,625 --> 00:31:10,295 Speaker 1: marine life. Um Marine biology, the, the, the oceans, but 577 00:31:10,305 --> 00:31:13,175 Speaker 1: we're not necessarily there. We are sustainable. Our company is 578 00:31:13,185 --> 00:31:17,974 Speaker 1: sustainable but we're not there to protect marine life. Uh We, 579 00:31:17,984 --> 00:31:19,604 Speaker 1: we are using marine 580 00:31:20,670 --> 00:31:24,930 Speaker 1: allergies and then a chops is to be exact and 581 00:31:24,939 --> 00:31:27,900 Speaker 1: just coming back to the point of skin care for women. 582 00:31:28,459 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 1: No, it's, it's uh it's for everyone. It's for male, 583 00:31:33,250 --> 00:31:37,020 Speaker 1: female Children, elderly. It's for everyone. We have three different 584 00:31:37,030 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: versions of the skin care. Um uh Actually we only 585 00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 1: have about six SQ US. There's a cleaner cleanser as 586 00:31:44,969 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: well as um a sunblock, but the main products will 587 00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: most likely be only three and it depends on um 588 00:31:54,439 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: the f for example, the first one is a bit 589 00:31:57,290 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: lighter for lighter skin, for youthful skin. The second one 590 00:32:00,890 --> 00:32:02,939 Speaker 1: is for day and night for somebody who wants a 591 00:32:02,949 --> 00:32:05,979 Speaker 1: little bit more hydration and support and a third version 592 00:32:05,989 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 1: is extremely rich and it's for um a very dry 593 00:32:09,969 --> 00:32:10,420 Speaker 1: cold 594 00:32:10,574 --> 00:32:12,555 Speaker 1: climates that you could go. For example, when you go 595 00:32:12,564 --> 00:32:15,084 Speaker 1: skiing or if you go hiking in the Himalayas, I mean, 596 00:32:15,094 --> 00:32:17,155 Speaker 1: I won't go hiking in the Himalayas, but something a 597 00:32:17,165 --> 00:32:20,755 Speaker 1: bit stronger. So it will be those not many skis 598 00:32:20,765 --> 00:32:24,484 Speaker 1: because we want it to be no fuss either. Just clean, effective, 599 00:32:24,494 --> 00:32:26,484 Speaker 1: no fuss skin care. 600 00:32:27,069 --> 00:32:30,329 Speaker 1: I don't hear your thoughts on branding a little bit. 601 00:32:30,410 --> 00:32:33,329 Speaker 1: So when we talk about skin care, we always associate 602 00:32:33,339 --> 00:32:35,500 Speaker 1: that with Korea in the last decade or so, Korea 603 00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:38,939 Speaker 1: has have become very good at marketing products that are 604 00:32:38,949 --> 00:32:42,540 Speaker 1: associated with excellence. And Korean skincare products seem to be 605 00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:45,719 Speaker 1: the thing to have with Japan. We can think of 606 00:32:45,729 --> 00:32:47,729 Speaker 1: back in the days it was electronics now, like when 607 00:32:47,739 --> 00:32:49,660 Speaker 1: we think of a fine fruits, you know, a melon 608 00:32:49,670 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: that cost $100 the Japanese are very good at making it. 609 00:32:52,989 --> 00:32:54,569 Speaker 1: You are producing this 610 00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:59,739 Speaker 1: from Singapore. How do you plan to brand Singapore? So 611 00:32:59,750 --> 00:33:06,079 Speaker 1: we had categorically decided to produce uh compound everything here 612 00:33:06,089 --> 00:33:10,530 Speaker 1: in Singapore and also use Singapore as the launching pad. 613 00:33:10,619 --> 00:33:15,959 Speaker 1: We believe Singapore has that credibility and that respect on 614 00:33:15,969 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: the international stage. And we feel that being here, 615 00:33:21,170 --> 00:33:23,949 Speaker 1: it's, it's the right time to have that stamp from 616 00:33:23,959 --> 00:33:28,180 Speaker 1: Singapore because it has that respect and it has that credibility. 617 00:33:28,369 --> 00:33:31,060 Speaker 1: Um We are also the fact that we have a 618 00:33:31,069 --> 00:33:33,930 Speaker 1: very uh not very, but we have an innovative 619 00:33:34,689 --> 00:33:38,319 Speaker 1: use of the technology that Dr S Sergei created here 620 00:33:38,329 --> 00:33:42,150 Speaker 1: in Singapore. And Singapore is also high tech. So that, 621 00:33:42,569 --> 00:33:46,079 Speaker 1: that makes sense. It reflects what Singapore has to offer 622 00:33:46,089 --> 00:33:49,439 Speaker 1: and our product reflects Singapore. So it's a, it's a, 623 00:33:49,449 --> 00:33:52,660 Speaker 1: it's a, I think it's a good marriage between the 624 00:33:52,670 --> 00:33:57,469 Speaker 1: two that the imagery. Um Our, our products are clean 625 00:33:57,479 --> 00:34:00,130 Speaker 1: and green. Singapore is clean and green. So it all 626 00:34:00,140 --> 00:34:02,810 Speaker 1: it makes sense all different angles, right? 627 00:34:03,209 --> 00:34:05,939 Speaker 1: Um So, well, I just, when I was writing this question, 628 00:34:05,949 --> 00:34:07,790 Speaker 1: I was just thinking in my head as well that 629 00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:10,770 Speaker 1: what are the other ways it can happen? Right? So I, 630 00:34:10,780 --> 00:34:12,810 Speaker 1: I take all your point. That's fantastic. But I really 631 00:34:12,820 --> 00:34:14,810 Speaker 1: want to stretch stress on that high tech part that 632 00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:17,610 Speaker 1: you mentioned because in the last couple of years, you 633 00:34:17,620 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: can see that in the global semiconductor space, all of 634 00:34:20,129 --> 00:34:22,739 Speaker 1: a sudden attention has come back to Singapore that the 635 00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:26,299 Speaker 1: super high tech companies see Singapore as a Mecca if 636 00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:27,909 Speaker 1: you will for high tech innovation. 637 00:34:28,168 --> 00:34:31,438 Speaker 1: So somehow intersecting your products with that high tech branding, 638 00:34:31,448 --> 00:34:33,599 Speaker 1: I think makes a lot of sense. Um And I 639 00:34:33,608 --> 00:34:37,349 Speaker 1: think that I'm so surprised that Singapore branding hasn't gone farther. 640 00:34:37,489 --> 00:34:39,498 Speaker 1: Uh We think of Singapore Airlines as you know, number 641 00:34:39,509 --> 00:34:41,448 Speaker 1: one airline in the world and its brands very, very 642 00:34:41,458 --> 00:34:43,989 Speaker 1: well in terms of the quality of services it offers 643 00:34:44,158 --> 00:34:46,898 Speaker 1: uh beyond that, there are not that many global brands. 644 00:34:46,908 --> 00:34:48,638 Speaker 1: So I hope that, you know, Almi becomes one of 645 00:34:48,648 --> 00:34:51,688 Speaker 1: those brands, which is synonymous with Singapore's clean and green 646 00:34:51,698 --> 00:34:54,099 Speaker 1: and excellent and high tech aspects. And you also mentioned 647 00:34:54,108 --> 00:34:55,329 Speaker 1: before about COVID 648 00:34:55,879 --> 00:35:00,379 Speaker 1: and that that was um convenient for us to be to, 649 00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:03,689 Speaker 1: to have decided to compound here in Singapore because many 650 00:35:03,699 --> 00:35:07,569 Speaker 1: people compound outside of Singapore and produce in Switzerland or 651 00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: in Korea. And by having us decide on Singapore, we 652 00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:15,300 Speaker 1: were able to still formulate and work during COVID. 653 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: Fantastic. 654 00:35:16,830 --> 00:35:20,010 Speaker 2: I might make one small comment. Um I mean, Singapore 655 00:35:20,020 --> 00:35:25,049 Speaker 2: was always more trading and services uh uh economy than 656 00:35:25,060 --> 00:35:29,540 Speaker 2: it was uh a product branding or product creation or, 657 00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:32,339 Speaker 2: or even, I mean, it's more a component supply when 658 00:35:32,350 --> 00:35:36,830 Speaker 2: it comes to products. Uh So uh that's also maybe 659 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,139 Speaker 2: a little bit what, what's in the background of this 660 00:35:39,149 --> 00:35:40,729 Speaker 2: that we have such rare, 661 00:35:41,459 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 2: relatively success stories of, of something produced and, and, and 662 00:35:46,449 --> 00:35:49,159 Speaker 2: then globally branded coming from Singapore. 663 00:35:49,689 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: So hopefully we can both with ay and with our 664 00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:56,260 Speaker 2: plug and play farms which we call Res park get 665 00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:57,870 Speaker 2: there in the future. 666 00:35:57,879 --> 00:36:00,189 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really interested in the plug and play aspect. 667 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:02,780 Speaker 1: I remember a few years ago reading about how sort 668 00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:05,300 Speaker 1: of changi airport wants to make its operation a bit 669 00:36:05,310 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: of a plug and play for airports around the world 670 00:36:07,739 --> 00:36:10,590 Speaker 1: that look at our operation manual, look at our sort of, 671 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,629 Speaker 1: you know, adherence to safety and product delivery standards 672 00:36:14,709 --> 00:36:17,409 Speaker 1: and, and we can help you replicate that elsewhere. So yeah, 673 00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:19,469 Speaker 1: do that. I mean, ii I think it's just a 674 00:36:19,479 --> 00:36:21,549 Speaker 1: matter of time before that sort of catches on. We 675 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,639 Speaker 2: look at the Middle East, we look at the region 676 00:36:23,649 --> 00:36:25,948 Speaker 2: and we look also at the time and people understand 677 00:36:25,959 --> 00:36:29,549 Speaker 2: that traditional fish farming methods are not the answer for 678 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,270 Speaker 2: the future. We need more resilient, more robust systems. 679 00:36:32,659 --> 00:36:36,370 Speaker 1: Ok. Interesting that you said that. So traditional fish farming methods. 680 00:36:36,379 --> 00:36:38,659 Speaker 1: So you are doing something which is create your marrying 681 00:36:38,669 --> 00:36:42,290 Speaker 1: technology and ESG practices and you're producing, but you're still 682 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: producing real fish. 683 00:36:43,989 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: Seems like the future of food production is also going 684 00:36:46,370 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: in the direction of synthetic or lab grown meat and 685 00:36:49,129 --> 00:36:52,029 Speaker 1: lab grows fish and all that. What's your view on that? 686 00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:56,659 Speaker 2: Well, of course, it's a controversial topic. Um We are 687 00:36:56,679 --> 00:37:02,010 Speaker 2: farming an animal that was developed by the evolution over 688 00:37:02,020 --> 00:37:05,529 Speaker 2: millions of years. It's a very efficient animal if you 689 00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:09,729 Speaker 2: think of feed conversion rates, uh protein production in itself. 690 00:37:10,530 --> 00:37:15,060 Speaker 2: Um And we compare that now with scientists and uh 691 00:37:15,590 --> 00:37:19,020 Speaker 2: that want to create something in lab that replaces that 692 00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:25,790 Speaker 2: evolutionary process and they're using clean, clean room environment, they 693 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 2: using the most expensive ingredients. Um they're using energy and 694 00:37:30,810 --> 00:37:34,330 Speaker 2: equipment that is expensive and they can create something out 695 00:37:34,340 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 2: of that. So if we compare that, we have to 696 00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:40,179 Speaker 2: compare it holistically and 697 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:45,860 Speaker 2: I'm personally not convinced that lab grown proteins are the 698 00:37:45,870 --> 00:37:50,060 Speaker 2: answer to feed the world or are competitive. At least 699 00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:54,310 Speaker 2: not now compared with at least fish farming. On the 700 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: other hand, this is a science endeavor that might lead 701 00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 2: to some progress and you don't know what it's good for. 702 00:38:01,399 --> 00:38:06,409 Speaker 2: It can, it can have benefits in health, nutrition, medicine, in, in, 703 00:38:06,419 --> 00:38:07,610 Speaker 2: in all kinds of ways 704 00:38:08,189 --> 00:38:12,138 Speaker 2: that lab grown protein approach. So we have to stay 705 00:38:12,149 --> 00:38:16,479 Speaker 2: open minded, but speaking for SI T and Michael and I, we, 706 00:38:16,489 --> 00:38:20,469 Speaker 2: we stay with the natural processes and the, the real product, 707 00:38:20,479 --> 00:38:23,370 Speaker 2: which is the fish. And our motto is teaming up 708 00:38:23,379 --> 00:38:24,009 Speaker 2: with nature. 709 00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:26,810 Speaker 1: And also, I think one of the major arguments in 710 00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:30,138 Speaker 1: favor of lab grown protein is that naturally grown protein 711 00:38:30,149 --> 00:38:33,770 Speaker 1: is very carbon intensive and especially with respect to cattle 712 00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:35,810 Speaker 1: farming creates a huge amount of greenhouse emission. 713 00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:38,540 Speaker 1: But at the onset, you pointed out that you think 714 00:38:38,550 --> 00:38:40,959 Speaker 1: that your fish farming model can be carbon neutral. 715 00:38:41,489 --> 00:38:44,330 Speaker 2: Yes. And in in defense of the cows, I know 716 00:38:44,340 --> 00:38:47,129 Speaker 2: that we employ the emission but they also eat the 717 00:38:47,139 --> 00:38:49,639 Speaker 2: grass and, and who else would eat the grass. So 718 00:38:49,649 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 2: they have a also evolutionary if you come from evolution 719 00:38:52,969 --> 00:38:55,790 Speaker 2: that there's a reason because we don't eat the grass. 720 00:38:55,979 --> 00:38:58,310 Speaker 2: So the grass needs to be eaten by the cows 721 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,290 Speaker 2: and we have to deal with is is the emissions 722 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 2: of the cow, for example, by adding seaweed components or others. 723 00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:09,330 Speaker 2: Um But anyway, this is, this is more we stay 724 00:39:09,340 --> 00:39:11,580 Speaker 2: to where we are and we want to be carbon 725 00:39:11,590 --> 00:39:15,639 Speaker 2: neutral in the sense that we marry solar farming with 726 00:39:15,649 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 2: fish farming. That's the big, that's the big thing. We 727 00:39:18,250 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 2: are connected to the green plan of Singapore. If we 728 00:39:21,929 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 2: have this, what I call that re park, that scaled 729 00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:26,638 Speaker 2: up version of what we're doing, we can create 4 730 00:39:26,649 --> 00:39:29,609 Speaker 2: to 5 megawatt peak of, of, of energy 731 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,419 Speaker 2: and we only need a quarter of that. But of course, 732 00:39:33,429 --> 00:39:35,860 Speaker 2: over the year since you have day and night and 733 00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:39,899 Speaker 2: rainy days and sunshine, it's carbon neutral. We wouldn't be 734 00:39:39,909 --> 00:39:43,939 Speaker 2: a net producer yet. But then if you look at 735 00:39:43,949 --> 00:39:46,709 Speaker 2: the sea space is still available for sea farming in 736 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,500 Speaker 2: Singapore where we are off the coast of Pasir Ris, 737 00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:52,550 Speaker 2: we have 100 hectare. So those 100 hectares are not 738 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,939 Speaker 2: utilized completely. Why not put a complete solar farm in 739 00:39:55,949 --> 00:39:56,260 Speaker 2: there 740 00:39:56,580 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: that is lifted up on a rooftop and underneath over time, 741 00:40:01,250 --> 00:40:03,469 Speaker 2: you add all the fish farming that you need. You 742 00:40:03,479 --> 00:40:06,100 Speaker 2: might not start with 100 hectare, of course not, but 743 00:40:06,110 --> 00:40:09,009 Speaker 2: that space isn't available and show me somewhere else in 744 00:40:09,020 --> 00:40:11,330 Speaker 2: Singapore where you have 100 hectare where you could put 745 00:40:11,340 --> 00:40:14,679 Speaker 2: solar farming on. It's not happening. So it's a great, 746 00:40:14,699 --> 00:40:19,779 Speaker 2: it's a great synergy that we now have to. 747 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,860 Speaker 2: Well, we have to make it happen. So we need 748 00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:25,850 Speaker 2: E we need SPG, we need the approvals for it. 749 00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:28,509 Speaker 2: NP has to play a role but it's the technology 750 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,109 Speaker 2: is there. We have floating solar farms on reservoirs and 751 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,339 Speaker 2: in the causeway, the next step is only lift them 752 00:40:35,350 --> 00:40:38,489 Speaker 2: up and put fish farming underneath. Then you, then you 753 00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:40,620 Speaker 2: have a wonderful combination, right? 754 00:40:40,689 --> 00:40:43,629 Speaker 1: I wanna drive around open air parking lots. I always 755 00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:45,310 Speaker 1: say to myself, why can there be some solar cells 756 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,479 Speaker 1: on top of this open air parking lot, sort of, 757 00:40:47,489 --> 00:40:50,219 Speaker 1: but of course, yours much, much bigger cross action. 758 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,549 Speaker 1: Um Now we are having this conversation in late October 2023. 759 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,739 Speaker 1: That means we have just about seven years left before 2030. 760 00:40:59,629 --> 00:41:03,219 Speaker 1: It is in your view possible that 3000 tons, 30,000 761 00:41:03,229 --> 00:41:05,729 Speaker 1: tons that you were talking about by 2030 in Singapore, 762 00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:11,129 Speaker 2: it's a very ambitious or as they sometimes say, aspirational target. 763 00:41:11,260 --> 00:41:16,330 Speaker 2: Um It's possible but it takes action now and not later. 764 00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:18,659 Speaker 2: And if I may say that if I look at 765 00:41:18,669 --> 00:41:22,189 Speaker 2: the amount of money that are now spent in research, 766 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:24,330 Speaker 2: which is justified 767 00:41:24,969 --> 00:41:29,739 Speaker 2: in comparison, the amounts for scaling up the infrastructure to 768 00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:37,370 Speaker 2: produce are neglect or negligible. Actually, they are too small. 769 00:41:37,379 --> 00:41:40,919 Speaker 2: We have to scale up. We have to bring ideally 770 00:41:40,929 --> 00:41:45,850 Speaker 2: private and public money together to create the utilities that 771 00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:49,429 Speaker 2: can produce. Because coming back to what we said in 772 00:41:49,439 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 2: the beginning, we are talking also about food security and 773 00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:54,649 Speaker 2: national interest and you don't get that for free 774 00:41:55,129 --> 00:41:58,509 Speaker 2: and you cannot always wait for private money, private money 775 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,370 Speaker 2: and also the banks. If I may say that is 776 00:42:01,379 --> 00:42:07,009 Speaker 2: reluctant to invest in farming, farming is considered not extremely 777 00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:10,550 Speaker 2: margin and, and commercially viable or not, you don't make 778 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,350 Speaker 2: much money in farm. Let's put it this way. 779 00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:15,469 Speaker 2: And I remember one of your banker colleagues years ago 780 00:42:15,479 --> 00:42:17,550 Speaker 2: said to me, Dirk, whatever you're telling me is great, 781 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,530 Speaker 2: but you have to, you have to remember one thing, 782 00:42:20,620 --> 00:42:24,709 Speaker 2: fish can die, which is of course true. What he 783 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,590 Speaker 2: meant is prematurely die. What of course, what he meant 784 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,830 Speaker 2: is the risk in farming in particular when you have livestock. 785 00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:36,589 Speaker 2: And therefore you see the reluctance in, in, in, in 786 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,290 Speaker 2: doing the next step, meaning financing this scale up and 787 00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:42,010 Speaker 2: believing that we can make it. 788 00:42:42,250 --> 00:42:47,919 Speaker 2: But if we continue to, to delay the the required 789 00:42:47,929 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 2: build up in capacities, we can't make it. And if 790 00:42:51,729 --> 00:42:54,979 Speaker 2: I may also say that we had some setbacks recently, 791 00:42:54,989 --> 00:42:58,489 Speaker 2: also farms leaving Singapore with their production and that was 792 00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 2: linked to outbreaks that we had from a viral disease 793 00:43:01,370 --> 00:43:06,069 Speaker 2: or whatever this is actually not correct. Those viruses, bacteria 794 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,709 Speaker 2: and pathogens are out for the last 1020 years. 795 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,620 Speaker 2: The question is, were these farms using the methods that 796 00:43:13,629 --> 00:43:17,909 Speaker 2: are suitable to deal with the local environment? And we 797 00:43:17,919 --> 00:43:21,020 Speaker 2: have to draw the con we are in competing approaches. 798 00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:25,100 Speaker 2: It's not a and nobody else. We need competing research, 799 00:43:25,149 --> 00:43:28,129 Speaker 2: we need competing farms, but we also have to look 800 00:43:28,139 --> 00:43:31,100 Speaker 2: at them carefully. What approach makes more sense and is 801 00:43:31,110 --> 00:43:34,739 Speaker 2: more successful. And in our growth, if I may say 802 00:43:34,750 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 2: that we have 1% mortality per month 803 00:43:38,330 --> 00:43:41,100 Speaker 2: in our entire farm, the challenge is more in the 804 00:43:41,110 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 2: stage until 100 g. That's typically also as the Norwegians 805 00:43:45,370 --> 00:43:49,919 Speaker 2: do it, doing it separated between land based farming and 806 00:43:49,929 --> 00:43:52,830 Speaker 2: sea based farming. We can talk about that, but we 807 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,709 Speaker 2: are successful in that. We have that under control. And 808 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,820 Speaker 2: now we need to convince the different players, private money, 809 00:44:00,830 --> 00:44:04,500 Speaker 2: venture capital, private equity. And also in my view, public 810 00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:04,899 Speaker 2: money 811 00:44:05,570 --> 00:44:10,169 Speaker 2: to create the utility that can produce as long as 812 00:44:10,179 --> 00:44:13,509 Speaker 2: we believe in the process in the operators and in 813 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,949 Speaker 2: have a backup. And for Singapore, the backup is us 814 00:44:17,189 --> 00:44:21,060 Speaker 2: whoever as a tenant and operator fails in our setup, 815 00:44:21,070 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 2: we take over, you're not sitting there with a collateral 816 00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:28,750 Speaker 2: or whatever you call it and, and you, you're left alone. 817 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,030 Speaker 2: We take over 818 00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:33,540 Speaker 2: and over time, we will have others that that can 819 00:44:33,550 --> 00:44:35,939 Speaker 2: be trained in an academy or whatever they can do 820 00:44:35,949 --> 00:44:37,090 Speaker 2: it as well as we can do it. 821 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: There is highly commendable and your, your sense of urgency 822 00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:44,010 Speaker 1: I think is just a po di just from a 823 00:44:44,020 --> 00:44:46,479 Speaker 1: zoomed out macro perspective globally. 824 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,459 Speaker 1: Where do we stand with fish farming? I mean, Singapore 825 00:44:49,469 --> 00:44:52,219 Speaker 1: has super high levels of urgency but are other countries 826 00:44:52,229 --> 00:44:53,620 Speaker 1: a little more blase? Well, the 827 00:44:53,629 --> 00:44:56,959 Speaker 2: question is, what are the alternatives we spoke about overfishing? 828 00:44:56,969 --> 00:45:00,860 Speaker 2: We have a constant output of wild caught fish over 829 00:45:00,870 --> 00:45:03,929 Speaker 2: the last years. Although the fleets go further and further 830 00:45:03,939 --> 00:45:09,679 Speaker 2: do more damage than ever. The stocks are not everywhere depleting, 831 00:45:09,689 --> 00:45:12,379 Speaker 2: but we won't get more out of the oceans and 832 00:45:12,389 --> 00:45:15,689 Speaker 2: from all the other aspects, etc, that's not the alternative. 833 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,149 Speaker 2: Um If we look at fish compared with cattle or with, 834 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 2: with other animals and not all of us want to 835 00:45:24,250 --> 00:45:27,429 Speaker 2: become vegan or vegetarian. that's also a fact it's that 836 00:45:27,439 --> 00:45:31,629 Speaker 2: animals are a protein source, then fish is a great alternative. 837 00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:34,699 Speaker 2: So the investment in aquaculture is huge and it will 838 00:45:34,709 --> 00:45:37,029 Speaker 2: continue to be huge all over the world 839 00:45:37,449 --> 00:45:40,290 Speaker 2: and there will be setbacks. It's not easy. We see 840 00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:42,489 Speaker 2: that not only in Singapore, look at what's happening in 841 00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:46,270 Speaker 2: America with the people who try farming of salmon, Atlantic 842 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,500 Speaker 2: Sapphire or even though the big players, there are severe setbacks, 843 00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:53,949 Speaker 2: but that will not break the trend. It will continue. 844 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,709 Speaker 2: There will be a lot of money invested in aquaculture 845 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,709 Speaker 2: and aquaculture. Fish farming will continue to grow. I'm totally 846 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:02,629 Speaker 2: convinced of that. 847 00:46:02,889 --> 00:46:05,449 Speaker 2: And then it's a question, who does it best? And 848 00:46:05,459 --> 00:46:08,350 Speaker 2: he who is successful commercially? And that's of course, is 849 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,689 Speaker 2: what the markets decide, 850 00:46:09,699 --> 00:46:13,780 Speaker 1: right? I originally come from Bangladesh and it's a country 851 00:46:13,790 --> 00:46:16,189 Speaker 1: of 100 and 70 million people on a land mass 852 00:46:16,199 --> 00:46:19,820 Speaker 1: the size of Wisconsin. But somehow some miraculous reason because 853 00:46:19,830 --> 00:46:23,319 Speaker 1: of aquaculture, there is still sufficiency in fish. Of course, 854 00:46:23,330 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: the country is full of rivers and therefore it's easy 855 00:46:25,090 --> 00:46:26,888 Speaker 1: to do aquaculture, but it shows you that you don't 856 00:46:26,899 --> 00:46:31,100 Speaker 1: need massive land masses to provide a fish protein to 857 00:46:31,110 --> 00:46:32,109 Speaker 1: a large population. 858 00:46:32,399 --> 00:46:35,280 Speaker 1: So super inspired by both of you. Thank you so 859 00:46:35,290 --> 00:46:37,549 Speaker 1: much for coming to Kobe Time and I wish both 860 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,659 Speaker 1: of your ventures, you know, all the success. Thank you 861 00:46:39,729 --> 00:46:42,639 Speaker 1: very much would be great to have you and thanks 862 00:46:42,649 --> 00:46:45,639 Speaker 1: to our listeners as well. Kobe Time was produced by 863 00:46:45,649 --> 00:46:49,479 Speaker 1: Ken Delbridge Violet, Lee and Daisy Sharma provided additional assistance. 864 00:46:49,729 --> 00:46:50,820 Speaker 1: This podcast is for 865 00:46:50,895 --> 00:46:54,875 Speaker 1: information only and does not constitute any investment advice. All 866 00:46:54,885 --> 00:46:58,145 Speaker 1: 111 episodes of copy time are available on youtube as 867 00:46:58,155 --> 00:47:02,304 Speaker 1: well as on all podcast platforms including Apple, Google and Spotify. 868 00:47:02,485 --> 00:47:05,685 Speaker 1: As for our research publications and webinars, you can find 869 00:47:05,695 --> 00:47:09,274 Speaker 1: them all by Googling DB Research Library. Have a great day.