1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Hello, you're listening to Kobie Time, a podcast series on 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,470 Speaker 1: markets and economies from DBS group research. I'm Tamera big 3 00:00:13,470 --> 00:00:17,230 Speaker 1: chief economist welcoming you to our 75th episode, which is 4 00:00:17,230 --> 00:00:19,060 Speaker 1: also our diamond anniversary 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,270 Speaker 1: to commemorate that event we have with us. A very 6 00:00:22,270 --> 00:00:25,340 Speaker 1: special guest Tan solution is the group head of institutional 7 00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: banking at DBS Bank. 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: Prior to leading the IBD business solution was responsible for 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,950 Speaker 1: leading DBS. S consumer banking and wealth management business for 10 00:00:33,950 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: close to a decade. From 2012 to 14, she served 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,650 Speaker 1: as nominated member of the parliament of Singapore 12 00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:42,690 Speaker 1: before DBS. She was morgan Stanley's head of private wealth 13 00:00:42,690 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: management for Southeast Asia. She has also worked at Citibank 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,710 Speaker 1: and part of that at engine bearings in London, Tokyo 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: and Hong kong cancelation. Welcome to Coffee Time. 16 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: Thank you to more. In fact, you know, when I 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,430 Speaker 2: looked at my coffee this morning I thought oh I 18 00:00:57,430 --> 00:01:01,690 Speaker 2: should be having with as a play on your name, 19 00:01:01,690 --> 00:01:04,380 Speaker 2: but thank you for the coffee and I'm looking forward 20 00:01:04,380 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 2: to a, 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,430 Speaker 1: a pleasure indeed. Um Sushi in front and center in 22 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:11,750 Speaker 1: the headlines these days is the crisis in Ukraine. 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,490 Speaker 1: It ought to be a bit esoteric for us. We 24 00:01:14,490 --> 00:01:17,230 Speaker 1: are a solicitation bank, tens of thousands of miles away 25 00:01:17,230 --> 00:01:20,110 Speaker 1: from the epicenter of the crisis but still seems to 26 00:01:20,110 --> 00:01:22,540 Speaker 1: me that DBS has been busy around the crisis the 27 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: last couple of months. Tell us why and how 28 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,340 Speaker 2: well I think you've got to look at it both 29 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:31,420 Speaker 2: from a big macro picture and how the world order 30 00:01:31,430 --> 00:01:35,250 Speaker 2: is changing has changed with this war and then you 31 00:01:35,250 --> 00:01:36,830 Speaker 2: have to look at it from a sort of bottom 32 00:01:36,830 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: up regional perspective. 33 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:41,429 Speaker 2: Um, and then even more bottom up on a sort 34 00:01:41,430 --> 00:01:44,050 Speaker 2: of industry sectoral perspective, 35 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,790 Speaker 2: when the war happened, you know, it did catch a 36 00:01:47,790 --> 00:01:51,100 Speaker 2: lot of people by surprise and we immediately huddled together 37 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: and we said, look, three areas of stress that we 38 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,300 Speaker 2: have to look out for the first is which one 39 00:01:57,310 --> 00:02:00,250 Speaker 2: of our clients have direct assets in Ukraine, Russia? 40 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,590 Speaker 2: What's the right down there, what's going to be hit then? 41 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: The second supply chains, Right, With war comes supply chain issues, 42 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,860 Speaker 2: Ukraine is the breadbasket of the world. Russia exports a 43 00:02:11,860 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: lot of diesel energy to the world. 44 00:02:14,139 --> 00:02:17,010 Speaker 2: How would the stoppage of that affect us? How would 45 00:02:17,010 --> 00:02:21,570 Speaker 2: the ports, you know, merrily, paul Odessa, all these ports 46 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:27,550 Speaker 2: were great import export channels between Eastern europe west and Asia? 47 00:02:27,940 --> 00:02:30,579 Speaker 2: Well, how would that affect the world and and our clients? 48 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: And then the subsequent sort of massive inflation that we're 49 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,050 Speaker 2: now seeing, How does that affect costs for smes? You know, how, 50 00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: how would that translate to higher interest rates, higher costs, 51 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: structural inflation, cyclical inflation and the survival of our smes. 52 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,790 Speaker 2: So there are many folds. And as you unpeeled these 53 00:02:50,790 --> 00:02:51,860 Speaker 2: different folds, 54 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,589 Speaker 2: you realize that, you know, everyone is impacted to some degree. 55 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,500 Speaker 2: It's just a matter of how much, um, and so 56 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:02,460 Speaker 2: with the direct hit, we looked at our assets, you 57 00:03:02,460 --> 00:03:05,230 Speaker 2: know clients with assets, be it plain stuck in airports 58 00:03:05,230 --> 00:03:06,060 Speaker 2: in Russia, 59 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,460 Speaker 2: um, you know, sanctioned first degree sanctioned assets, which we, we, we, we, 60 00:03:11,460 --> 00:03:15,940 Speaker 2: we didn't have thankfully, but also, um, um, you know, 61 00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:20,559 Speaker 2: companies that had bought, you know, oil assets in Russia 62 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,550 Speaker 2: or Ukraine or Kazakhstan around the area, um, and 63 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:27,459 Speaker 2: you know, what was the right down, what was the 64 00:03:27,470 --> 00:03:29,650 Speaker 2: navy right down there? And we had to stress test that. 65 00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:33,389 Speaker 2: Um, and most came out, okay, we didn't have that many, 66 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,060 Speaker 2: but most came out okay from a liquidity standpoint, it 67 00:03:37,060 --> 00:03:39,500 Speaker 2: was a supply chain issues that, that, that I think 68 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:42,950 Speaker 2: people suffered for because suddenly, you know, goods weren't moving 69 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,390 Speaker 2: or if they were, they were massively inflated in pricing. Um, 70 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,350 Speaker 2: and so food, um, 71 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,100 Speaker 2: inflation, oil, inflation 72 00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:56,390 Speaker 2: and then the kind of downstream social revolutionary impact that 73 00:03:56,390 --> 00:04:00,180 Speaker 2: it could have. Um, you know, some clients of us said, 74 00:04:00,190 --> 00:04:02,750 Speaker 2: you know, if you have the cost of food 75 00:04:03,140 --> 00:04:06,460 Speaker 2: Go up to more than 50% of net household income 76 00:04:06,460 --> 00:04:11,150 Speaker 2: in certain emerging, markets that's the tipping point of social revolution, 77 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: then what, Right, what is the implication of that? You know, 78 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:20,010 Speaker 2: changing governments or massive social strife you're seeing it now 79 00:04:20,020 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: in the world, the geopolitics is sort of, you know, 80 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,010 Speaker 2: getting hotter and, and, and more dynamic and, and, and, and, and, 81 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:31,830 Speaker 2: and a lot more polarized society is polarized today, right? 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,260 Speaker 2: And what's the impact of that. 83 00:04:33,339 --> 00:04:36,979 Speaker 2: And then obviously closer to home, our smes, you know in, 84 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:41,099 Speaker 2: in the region coupled with this covid zero Covid lockdown 85 00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:43,490 Speaker 2: that we're having now in china, you know, much closer 86 00:04:43,490 --> 00:04:44,050 Speaker 2: to home. 87 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,530 Speaker 2: Um, we're seeing different kinds of stresses with Ukraine. It 88 00:04:48,529 --> 00:04:53,010 Speaker 2: was supply side stresses, stresses with covid demand destruction. So 89 00:04:53,010 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: you've got supply issues now, demand issues before and also 90 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,860 Speaker 2: demand issues now in china with the covid lockdown. 91 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: Susan staying with Ukraine for a little longer. One thing 92 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:03,850 Speaker 1: that I was worried about that since we saw these 93 00:05:03,850 --> 00:05:05,250 Speaker 1: big spikes and energy 94 00:05:05,339 --> 00:05:08,420 Speaker 1: that whenever you have very large volatility in the asset prices, 95 00:05:08,430 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: trading firms, investment houses could be subject to margin calls 96 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,900 Speaker 1: and that could lead to some degree of stress on 97 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: the bank balance sheet. How did DBS deal with that? 98 00:05:19,339 --> 00:05:24,390 Speaker 2: Well, I tell you, we realize, you know what normally 99 00:05:24,390 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: takes years to happen 100 00:05:26,339 --> 00:05:29,090 Speaker 2: can now take place in literally hours. You know, when 101 00:05:29,089 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: we saw what happened to nickel on the LME and 102 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,419 Speaker 2: in the end they had to suspend the market for 103 00:05:34,420 --> 00:05:35,550 Speaker 2: for several days. 104 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,550 Speaker 2: The massive volatility is, you know, without the circuit breaker 105 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,170 Speaker 2: That could kill you. You know, you could be dealing 106 00:05:43,170 --> 00:05:47,110 Speaker 2: with the world's largest nickel supplier. But if they're just 107 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,529 Speaker 2: in a normal market, they would be, they would be 108 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:53,409 Speaker 2: hedging 20%, that's normal. But when you suddenly have your 109 00:05:53,410 --> 00:05:56,660 Speaker 2: mark to market swing up by several 1000%. 110 00:05:57,339 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: If you don't have the liquidity or you can't produce 111 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: it fast enough. You can't supply it fast enough. 112 00:06:02,339 --> 00:06:06,380 Speaker 2: That lack of liquidity, That basis risk could kill you, right? 113 00:06:06,390 --> 00:06:10,140 Speaker 2: And then it's also kind of measuring the functionality between 114 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:15,029 Speaker 2: the listed market and the Otc market post 2000 and eight. Um, 115 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,070 Speaker 2: you know, with the financial crisis, everybody wanted to pivot 116 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: to the listed transparent market. 117 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,140 Speaker 2: But it seems now that some of our traders are 118 00:06:23,140 --> 00:06:26,969 Speaker 2: commodity traders or traders, Nicole traders, metals traders are saying 119 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:30,300 Speaker 2: I would rather trade Otc with the trusted counter party 120 00:06:30,310 --> 00:06:33,580 Speaker 2: than be subject to the massive wild swings on the 121 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:34,950 Speaker 2: listed market. Right? 122 00:06:35,339 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: And then we realized in the listed market, sometimes you 123 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,250 Speaker 2: have real buyers and sellers, sometimes you have hedge funds 124 00:06:40,250 --> 00:06:42,990 Speaker 2: who are trying to allow creating a short squeeze, who knows? 125 00:06:42,990 --> 00:06:46,130 Speaker 2: But the fact is we had wild swings in the 126 00:06:46,130 --> 00:06:49,780 Speaker 2: listed market, you had counter party risk on the Otc 127 00:06:49,779 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: market and and and and and two sides still had 128 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,260 Speaker 2: to dovetail and we had to deal with it 129 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:55,250 Speaker 2: constantly. 130 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,020 Speaker 2: So constant mark to market, constant interaction between the exchange, 131 00:07:00,020 --> 00:07:03,470 Speaker 2: our traders, us and I also realized that the best 132 00:07:03,470 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 2: way to get information on these things is to talk 133 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,169 Speaker 2: to the clients who are in it. I actually don't 134 00:07:09,170 --> 00:07:11,950 Speaker 2: think the market players are that 135 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,450 Speaker 2: up to date with the supply demand dynamics with the 136 00:07:14,450 --> 00:07:16,550 Speaker 2: who and the what and the how but if you 137 00:07:16,550 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: talk to the reel and users and buyers and you 138 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,370 Speaker 2: talk to their competitors and you really have that in 139 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: depth conversation, take them out and find out who's buying, 140 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,770 Speaker 2: who's who's selling, what's going on. That's where you get 141 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:32,260 Speaker 2: the real insights 142 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: Now. Unlike say, 2008 when the market gap and we 143 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: saw large scale failures, we really didn't see anything. There 144 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,030 Speaker 1: was a lot of fear for a couple of weeks 145 00:07:42,030 --> 00:07:44,220 Speaker 1: that we might see some failures and but we didn't. 146 00:07:44,230 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: And the reason for that is liquidity is ample. Or 147 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:47,980 Speaker 1: the banks, 148 00:07:48,220 --> 00:07:51,750 Speaker 2: I think timor, we've all been so stressed tested by 149 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,340 Speaker 2: Lack of liquidity right after 08 after 97 in the 150 00:07:55,340 --> 00:07:58,650 Speaker 2: Asian crisis and 0809 with the global financial crisis, 151 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: everyone has been prepared to show up liquidity when you 152 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,570 Speaker 2: suddenly need it. So our CS were called, you know, 153 00:08:05,580 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: rates did go up in the short term, as you know, 154 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:11,690 Speaker 2: but people were prepared from a liquidity point of view. 155 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:15,380 Speaker 2: They were less prepared from a massive cultural market volatility 156 00:08:15,380 --> 00:08:17,500 Speaker 2: point of view because as we said, you know, those 157 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:20,230 Speaker 2: volatility was unprecedented. By the way, I haven't heard the 158 00:08:20,230 --> 00:08:23,610 Speaker 2: word unprecedented, used as much as I have in the 159 00:08:23,610 --> 00:08:28,250 Speaker 2: last 12 months, right? But we have had unprecedented volatility 160 00:08:28,250 --> 00:08:32,730 Speaker 2: in everything from prices to interest rates, to market swings, 161 00:08:32,730 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: you name it, we've had it. 162 00:08:34,340 --> 00:08:37,150 Speaker 2: Um, and so we are living in the vocal world, right? 163 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,910 Speaker 2: You know, and the volatile uncertain world. And, and, and, 164 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,569 Speaker 2: and we're getting used to in a way, stress testing 165 00:08:44,570 --> 00:08:48,179 Speaker 2: and then becoming kind of agile and being able to 166 00:08:48,179 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: pivot quickly. 167 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: Well the stresses that was even bigger than this was 168 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,830 Speaker 1: two years ago, exactly two years ago. In fact the 169 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,510 Speaker 1: COVID crisis. So take us back to March April of 170 00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:00,530 Speaker 1: 2020 solution. How did you deal 171 00:09:00,530 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: with that? Well, I tell you we didn't know what 172 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:05,710 Speaker 2: we didn't know at the time, we didn't know how 173 00:09:05,710 --> 00:09:07,650 Speaker 2: long it's going to last. It was kind of scary. 174 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: And so we said, look, we have to create a frame, right? 175 00:09:11,140 --> 00:09:15,610 Speaker 2: Ah And um I learned this from, from a friend 176 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:19,620 Speaker 2: of mine who runs a logistics company and he calls 177 00:09:19,620 --> 00:09:25,410 Speaker 2: it or or D. A. Which is observe orient, decide 178 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:27,660 Speaker 2: and act right? And and and the people who can 179 00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 2: do this quite quickly 180 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:33,060 Speaker 2: in a high velocity way in differences, circumstances will come 181 00:09:33,059 --> 00:09:33,660 Speaker 2: out stronger 182 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:34,460 Speaker 2: and we'll win. 183 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,050 Speaker 2: And so for us it was what's going on, 184 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: okay, is this unknown disease that's going to cause a 185 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,630 Speaker 2: lot of demand, destruction, demand destruction. Who is going to 186 00:09:45,630 --> 00:09:50,250 Speaker 2: be hit by this massive demand destruction, obviously aviation, hospitality, tourism, 187 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: you know, food and beverage, possibly logistics. So we had 188 00:09:54,450 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: this bucket of direct demand destruction, hits, 189 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,660 Speaker 2: what does it do to your top line, 190 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: What does it do to your bottom line? How long 191 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,050 Speaker 2: can they survive? What do they need? This was financially 192 00:10:05,059 --> 00:10:08,700 Speaker 2: super stressed in the streets, right? So we put this 193 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:09,850 Speaker 2: our bucket one 194 00:10:10,340 --> 00:10:12,780 Speaker 2: and figured out how do we help these clients through? 195 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:14,260 Speaker 2: We have to decide 196 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,380 Speaker 2: who we had to help. How are we going to 197 00:10:16,380 --> 00:10:17,459 Speaker 2: help and 198 00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:20,750 Speaker 2: how long for? Right we didn't know. 199 00:10:21,140 --> 00:10:23,849 Speaker 2: And the second bucket was okay these are going to 200 00:10:23,850 --> 00:10:28,270 Speaker 2: be financially stress, not direct but there will be financial stress. 201 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:29,890 Speaker 2: And how long do we help them? You know, do 202 00:10:29,890 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: we have a principal moratorium? Uh Lower rates. I mean 203 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:35,690 Speaker 2: rates were already very low to be honest at the 204 00:10:35,690 --> 00:10:38,780 Speaker 2: time but how do we stretch out their principal repayments 205 00:10:38,780 --> 00:10:41,660 Speaker 2: for example. And then the third was sort of 206 00:10:41,940 --> 00:10:46,230 Speaker 2: ah the smes and the ones that had to pivot, 207 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,590 Speaker 2: you know we realized that at the time honestly a 208 00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:53,089 Speaker 2: lot of smes were not as digitally savvy as they 209 00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:54,150 Speaker 2: are now today 210 00:10:54,540 --> 00:10:58,410 Speaker 2: but that's sort of digital acceleration happened overnight right? With Covid, 211 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:00,870 Speaker 2: you had no choice, you were not selling online, you 212 00:11:00,870 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: have to sell online 213 00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:04,830 Speaker 2: and we had to figure out okay all our smes 214 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:07,300 Speaker 2: were not online. How do you help them digitize their offerings? 215 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:09,010 Speaker 2: How do you help them digitize them menus? How do 216 00:11:09,010 --> 00:11:11,850 Speaker 2: you get logistics services? So we kind of put the 217 00:11:11,860 --> 00:11:15,179 Speaker 2: digital sme in the box service, right, give them the loans, 218 00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:18,830 Speaker 2: give them the low, you know give them the es 219 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: we call them the 220 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,349 Speaker 2: you know the government support loans, E. S. G. Loans, 221 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,290 Speaker 2: low interest rates you know very little pay down and 222 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:30,050 Speaker 2: initially give them the digital package. Find them the logistics 223 00:11:30,050 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: suppliers etcetera. Kind of digital digital financial help in the box. Right? 224 00:11:34,890 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: And overnight we gave some 14,000 smes this help 225 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:44,010 Speaker 2: um the financial package some digital packaging um And training, 226 00:11:44,010 --> 00:11:46,809 Speaker 2: you know really quick overnight you have to let the 227 00:11:46,809 --> 00:11:50,020 Speaker 2: UX design friendly, you had to learn how to to 228 00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: to to to to price offerings online etcetera. So digital 229 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,050 Speaker 2: and to him. Um And we also because of Covid 230 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: digitize our trade offering trade, Taymor suppose 231 00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: physical analog business, inter inter inter country trade. Um And 232 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,510 Speaker 2: overnight because the Covid we had to digitize our offering, 233 00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:12,500 Speaker 2: we came up with digital dots for doctorate digital 0 234 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: 84 open account trade, you know biometrics digital and to 235 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: infiltrate that you know in a way really saved us 236 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,750 Speaker 2: saved our clients and and so this digital acceleration, 237 00:12:23,940 --> 00:12:27,430 Speaker 2: the financial package that we came up with. Um And 238 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,740 Speaker 2: and the different stress tests we had with the you 239 00:12:29,740 --> 00:12:32,830 Speaker 2: know big stress industries, the ones that were suffering from 240 00:12:32,830 --> 00:12:35,410 Speaker 2: demand destruction and the ones that had to digitize the 241 00:12:35,420 --> 00:12:39,929 Speaker 2: offering or pivot they're offering um all hands on deck 242 00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:42,900 Speaker 2: and and to to cope with it. Everyone working from 243 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 2: home right? 244 00:12:44,340 --> 00:12:48,460 Speaker 1: Um so at that point at least through 2020 and 245 00:12:48,460 --> 00:12:52,380 Speaker 1: 2021 the banks were also finding an environment which was 246 00:12:52,390 --> 00:12:55,410 Speaker 1: heavily supported by the government. So whether it's in Singapore 247 00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: or the US or elsewhere. Um some of these loan moratorium, 248 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: the cash transfer to the population certainly helped 249 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:03,530 Speaker 2: absolutely 250 00:13:03,530 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: Surface with the pandemic. Now we're in 2022 and a 251 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: lot of these measures are expiring. Do you feel confident 252 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,250 Speaker 1: that the credit risk that we're sort of underwritten by 253 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: government intervention can still be okay? 254 00:13:15,770 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: Well obviously we have to do our stress test based 255 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,580 Speaker 2: on what's happening with Ukraine and where, I think the 256 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:23,150 Speaker 2: worry spot is Tamar, 257 00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:27,690 Speaker 2: it's the structural inflation upon us and whether it's utility bills, 258 00:13:27,690 --> 00:13:30,950 Speaker 2: manpower bills, commodity bills, 259 00:13:31,340 --> 00:13:35,069 Speaker 2: all your bills have gone up, interest rates. Um and 260 00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:37,689 Speaker 2: that's not trivial. And if you're an sme already on 261 00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:39,050 Speaker 2: wafer thin margins, 262 00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: this could tip you over and and so this is 263 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: where we need to figure out when, when all this 264 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: help goes. You know, the job support schemes, the financial schemes, 265 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:49,350 Speaker 2: when all this support goals, 266 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,340 Speaker 2: our sme is still robust enough to survive and thrive, right? 267 00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: And if they're not, how do we help them pivot 268 00:13:56,809 --> 00:13:58,699 Speaker 2: the good, the good, the good thing is, you know, 269 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:01,570 Speaker 2: I do think a lot of them pivoted during covid, right? 270 00:14:01,570 --> 00:14:04,150 Speaker 2: They realized that business as usual wasn't gonna cut it. 271 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: Um And so old business models that were outdated have 272 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,660 Speaker 2: pivoted um the way you pay and receive, you know, 273 00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:16,390 Speaker 2: everyone now using their mobile phones, mobile devices, real time, 274 00:14:16,390 --> 00:14:19,980 Speaker 2: real time, you know, interbank rails, et cetera, I think 275 00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:23,530 Speaker 2: that pivot has already happened in most countries in in 276 00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:24,460 Speaker 2: our markets 277 00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:26,460 Speaker 2: and will continue to accelerate 278 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,970 Speaker 2: um and coupled with that also this constant view on 279 00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:32,260 Speaker 2: what I think we'll go to that in a minute, 280 00:14:32,260 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: but it's constant pivot to more sustainable solutions, more sustainable 281 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,550 Speaker 2: products and services. I think that also will not change, right? 282 00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:45,060 Speaker 2: So digitalization, sustainability, these two mega trends will not change. 283 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,260 Speaker 2: Um and and I think smes now know that they 284 00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:49,050 Speaker 2: have to pivot 285 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,820 Speaker 2: from the old ways of doing business and if they're 286 00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:55,940 Speaker 2: old businesses were kind of marginal at best, then you know, 287 00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:58,370 Speaker 2: you're gonna have to change your business model 288 00:14:58,380 --> 00:14:58,860 Speaker 1: right 289 00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:04,180 Speaker 1: now. The smes have been forced to pivot how profoundly 290 00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:06,630 Speaker 1: has the banking system. I just don't mean dBS but 291 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,390 Speaker 1: overall the banking system and finance has pivoted in the 292 00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:10,350 Speaker 1: last two years. 293 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: I think the realization that, you know, you had to 294 00:15:14,690 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: digitize everything and to end whether it's using the current 295 00:15:18,450 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: real time payment rails 296 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,210 Speaker 2: um and also cross border, you know, now now with 297 00:15:24,220 --> 00:15:26,650 Speaker 2: what we're doing with patio, which is our Blockchain based 298 00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:31,650 Speaker 2: cross border real time digital payments platform 299 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,420 Speaker 2: um for well for for payments for payments for, for 300 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: cross currency payments. But 301 00:15:37,940 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: but cross border trade as well right, When, when you, 302 00:15:40,290 --> 00:15:42,150 Speaker 2: you know, in the past it was still very paper based, 303 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:44,980 Speaker 2: I'm afraid we're still quite paper based in the world, 304 00:15:44,980 --> 00:15:48,260 Speaker 2: but the corridors that are becoming a lot more digital. 305 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,670 Speaker 2: Um I think, you know, big companies realized that we 306 00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:54,770 Speaker 2: have to work together, no one big company can do 307 00:15:54,770 --> 00:15:58,110 Speaker 2: this on their own and countries and industries and governments 308 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,550 Speaker 2: have to work together to help enable this digitalization of trade. 309 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: The use of Blockchain as a source of verification, as 310 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,020 Speaker 2: a source of obligation, as a source, as a proof 311 00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:08,260 Speaker 2: of 312 00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:11,250 Speaker 2: transaction obligation verification, identity etcetera. 313 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,610 Speaker 2: The digital tools are here to solve a lot of 314 00:16:14,610 --> 00:16:20,050 Speaker 2: problems but we can't do this singular singularity. Everybody has 315 00:16:20,050 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: to get into to create this ecosystem of digital use 316 00:16:24,090 --> 00:16:28,260 Speaker 2: this ecosystem where you have trusted source of data. Um 317 00:16:28,270 --> 00:16:29,850 Speaker 2: there's no fraud, 318 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,990 Speaker 2: right? And and and and and that we're all here 319 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: to make the digital end to end work for everyone. 320 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,460 Speaker 2: Um 321 00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: It's it's been happening I think what covid did was 322 00:16:40,370 --> 00:16:42,660 Speaker 2: accelerated to need for this to happen. 323 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: I think banks around the world embraced this digital payments 324 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,530 Speaker 2: and offerings and trade. Uh Singapore came up with S. G. 325 00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:54,900 Speaker 2: Trade acts, which is also our way of engaging all 326 00:16:54,900 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: the ecosystem partners and trade being overseas governments um big 327 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:01,660 Speaker 2: traders etcetera 328 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,689 Speaker 2: to help us to to to to get governments to 329 00:17:04,690 --> 00:17:05,460 Speaker 2: recognize that 330 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,630 Speaker 2: digital E dots was the way forward. And and you know, 331 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:12,169 Speaker 2: it's far to our case of using paper, paper is 332 00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: prone to fraud. Let's move everything to digital usage. Let's 333 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,270 Speaker 2: use the Blockchain when we can. 334 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 2: Um and so this this movement has started and I 335 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,990 Speaker 2: don't think we're going back this movement has started and 336 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:29,310 Speaker 2: accelerated by Covid, it's not moving back anytime. Um and 337 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,649 Speaker 2: and as I said, I also think that the realization that, 338 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:35,610 Speaker 2: you know, I mean we had clean air when nobody 339 00:17:35,609 --> 00:17:36,859 Speaker 2: was flying, we had, 340 00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:43,610 Speaker 2: You know, a period of lower pollution et cetera. People realize, Gosh, 341 00:17:43,609 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 2: we do need to uh you know, we do need 342 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,210 Speaker 2: to to embrace sustainability and the cop 26 with some 343 00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 2: big rallying cry now with the next cop et cetera. 344 00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:57,350 Speaker 2: I think companies governments all realized there's no turning back 345 00:17:57,350 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: on sustainability as well and that's a journey to embrace. 346 00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:04,450 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I want to go deeper into that momentarily, 347 00:18:04,450 --> 00:18:07,230 Speaker 1: but I just want to stay with the digital team 348 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,660 Speaker 1: a little longer. So you went through several digital transformation 349 00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:15,609 Speaker 1: initiatives that the banking system has been part of, especially dbs, 350 00:18:15,619 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: which one excites you the most. 351 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,379 Speaker 2: Gosh, wow! I I mean from our days of starting 352 00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: our first digital bank digit bank in India which was 353 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:30,310 Speaker 2: no humans, no branch, no paper that was open your 354 00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:34,169 Speaker 2: account in 90 seconds. Um you know, I think 355 00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: we all know banks know that you know, 356 00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:40,389 Speaker 2: fin techs are there to take our lunch right, whether 357 00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:45,169 Speaker 2: it's crap or and all these guys make fantastic 358 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,500 Speaker 2: customer experience for our customers in, in certain parts of banking, 359 00:18:50,510 --> 00:18:55,050 Speaker 2: be it payments or loans, microloans or or being embedded 360 00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:58,690 Speaker 2: in our customer journey, whether it's everyday journey, episodic journey 361 00:18:58,690 --> 00:18:59,949 Speaker 2: sme journey whatever 362 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,170 Speaker 2: and I think the realization was, you know, in order 363 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:06,730 Speaker 2: to win in the digital game, you have to embed 364 00:19:06,730 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: yourself through truly deeply into the customer journey. Um and 365 00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:13,140 Speaker 2: and that's what we did and I think that's what 366 00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:15,169 Speaker 2: excites me, it's that kind of 367 00:19:16,340 --> 00:19:19,980 Speaker 2: the complete change in our mindset now as a bank, 368 00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: you know, in the past, it was all about products, campaigns, 369 00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: sell, cross, sell right now, it's 370 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 2: customer journey. What do they want, what do they see? 371 00:19:31,690 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 2: Journey focused digital UX the four D. S. Right? You know, 372 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: you discover and then you define, you discover, you develop 373 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:39,670 Speaker 2: and you deliver. 374 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,540 Speaker 2: That's kind of now melted into our culture. That's what 375 00:19:44,540 --> 00:19:47,369 Speaker 2: excites me the fact that we're not talking about, we're 376 00:19:47,369 --> 00:19:50,330 Speaker 2: not talking about selling stuff, we're talking about cross by 377 00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:53,899 Speaker 2: right customers knowing knowing what customers need before they even 378 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,710 Speaker 2: know it and having the product at the right time, 379 00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:59,949 Speaker 2: the right place and the right price. That's what excites me. 380 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,540 Speaker 1: Okay, you've been part of the digital transformation process, both 381 00:20:02,540 --> 00:20:04,730 Speaker 1: in the consumer banking side as well as the institutional 382 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:05,460 Speaker 1: banking side. 383 00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:07,060 Speaker 1: Which one is more challenging 384 00:20:07,150 --> 00:20:11,750 Speaker 2: by far the institutional side. And I'll tell you why, 385 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,750 Speaker 2: I mean with the with the consumer side it's one client, 386 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,570 Speaker 2: it's you know, one identity and the products are more 387 00:20:18,570 --> 00:20:20,860 Speaker 2: or less, you know uniform, right? 388 00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:24,970 Speaker 2: But with the corporate client, it's multiple segments from very 389 00:20:24,970 --> 00:20:29,050 Speaker 2: large courts with many, many different, you know economic groups, 390 00:20:29,050 --> 00:20:31,060 Speaker 2: you've got subsidiaries, you know, 391 00:20:31,540 --> 00:20:35,770 Speaker 2: fully owned subsidiaries, you know associate companies, you know, one 392 00:20:35,770 --> 00:20:38,710 Speaker 2: client can have 1000 different accounts with different 1000 different 393 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:42,930 Speaker 2: signing families, right? With 1000 different LPO eight. So how 394 00:20:42,930 --> 00:20:45,620 Speaker 2: do you design for that together with the complexity of 395 00:20:45,630 --> 00:20:47,169 Speaker 2: inter country trades, 396 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,220 Speaker 2: you know, our CS blah blah blah and drawn drawn 397 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 2: committed term loans, 398 00:20:52,540 --> 00:20:57,379 Speaker 2: trade lines, documentary trade, the pC limits where you're trading 399 00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: with with with with financial products, mark to market losses etcetera. 400 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,209 Speaker 2: So fairly fairly complex on the large cops. And then 401 00:21:04,220 --> 00:21:06,550 Speaker 2: each industry has different needs 402 00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: to smes where it's a little bit more uniform but 403 00:21:09,490 --> 00:21:13,070 Speaker 2: even then, you know different industries in the smes are 404 00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:15,530 Speaker 2: part of different ecosystems. So you need to plan for 405 00:21:15,530 --> 00:21:19,210 Speaker 2: their ecosystem, the building and contractors are in one ecosystem, 406 00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:22,190 Speaker 2: the food and agree on a different ecosystem, the textile 407 00:21:22,190 --> 00:21:25,020 Speaker 2: companies and different ecosystems, healthcare companies different because this is 408 00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:25,659 Speaker 2: how do you 409 00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:30,090 Speaker 2: design and plan for these different ecosystems from big caps 410 00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: to sme that's pretty complex. 411 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,710 Speaker 1: And then how do you do on a daily basis 412 00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:37,950 Speaker 1: sort of run your business if you have to deal 413 00:21:37,950 --> 00:21:39,290 Speaker 1: with so many different buckets 414 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: cuDA. So you you know you you observe and the 415 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,850 Speaker 2: orient and the orientation part is important. So for me, 416 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,850 Speaker 2: um it's finding the best people 417 00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: to make the right decisions and to act right? So 418 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,700 Speaker 2: the UDA so we have to observe, we all observe 419 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:58,460 Speaker 2: collectively what's going on in the markets and then when 420 00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:00,050 Speaker 2: the orientation is okay, 421 00:22:00,540 --> 00:22:05,070 Speaker 2: this crisis needs help. I need people who know about geopolitics, 422 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,180 Speaker 2: I need, you know, we pulled you in so many 423 00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:09,550 Speaker 2: times to some of our huddles, but you know, we 424 00:22:09,550 --> 00:22:12,060 Speaker 2: need to pull in people with subject matter expertise, right? 425 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,500 Speaker 2: Geopolitics, supply chain, industry, knowledge, country knowledge, credit knowledge, whatever, 426 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:22,210 Speaker 2: pull the people in, have it all out right, All 427 00:22:22,210 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: of us kind of battle in the room in the 428 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: little war room and battle in the huddle and go, 429 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,100 Speaker 2: this could happen, this could happen. What's the stress is 50% 100% 80% 430 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:30,859 Speaker 2: whatever it is 431 00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:32,670 Speaker 2: and then reach a decision 432 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 2: and an act, right? And and and that's important. So 433 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,940 Speaker 2: I can't do it all myself. No way. But I 434 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:43,010 Speaker 2: surround myself with people whom I think bring a lot 435 00:22:43,010 --> 00:22:46,610 Speaker 2: of diverse expertise on the table. Are not shy to 436 00:22:46,619 --> 00:22:50,470 Speaker 2: say it as it is. Built the trust between our teams, 437 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,669 Speaker 2: built open communication between our teams. 438 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,109 Speaker 2: Um, and enable kind of the bad stuff. The hard 439 00:22:57,109 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: stuff to come up and discuss robustly and then depends 440 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: on everyone to work as a team to execute, 441 00:23:03,940 --> 00:23:05,780 Speaker 1: I want to stay on that for a moment. Maybe 442 00:23:05,780 --> 00:23:07,389 Speaker 1: this is more of an HR question. But when you 443 00:23:07,390 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: talk about debate things out and look at the views 444 00:23:11,050 --> 00:23:14,710 Speaker 1: how much often important to your scientists are diversity of 445 00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:17,900 Speaker 1: opinions and diversity of personalities when these sort of challenging 446 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,050 Speaker 1: situations are being handled. 447 00:23:20,060 --> 00:23:24,550 Speaker 2: So, you know, that's not easy, but it's making it 448 00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 2: okay to surround yourself, all of us to have people 449 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,139 Speaker 2: around us that don't think like us and have a 450 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:34,170 Speaker 2: different perspective of the world from us. 451 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,310 Speaker 2: I think a lot of maybe more traditional old boys 452 00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: network don't like that. They like to have kind of 453 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,410 Speaker 2: groupthink right? You see them in some governments, you see 454 00:23:46,410 --> 00:23:49,310 Speaker 2: them in some old style businesses where there's group think, 455 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,300 Speaker 2: you know, and there's trust, of course there's trust because 456 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 2: you're all alike. 457 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,890 Speaker 2: The difficulty you have, we have today is how do 458 00:23:55,890 --> 00:23:57,060 Speaker 2: you build trust 459 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,050 Speaker 2: in an organization that's so unlike 460 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,210 Speaker 2: right you and I think differently these people all think 461 00:24:03,210 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: differently from me. They look different from me. They see 462 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,100 Speaker 2: things differently from me. How do you build that trust 463 00:24:09,109 --> 00:24:13,540 Speaker 2: quite quickly, Right? And break some of the unconscious biases 464 00:24:13,540 --> 00:24:14,449 Speaker 2: that we have, 465 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:16,260 Speaker 2: that's the tough part 466 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,969 Speaker 2: and that's when I think that, you know, thanks to 467 00:24:18,970 --> 00:24:21,510 Speaker 2: our HR colleagues who have come in and done that 468 00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: sort of breaking down of barriers and unconscious bias. The 469 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,830 Speaker 2: T sprints that we've had. I mean our T sprints 470 00:24:26,830 --> 00:24:29,980 Speaker 2: have been robust, they've been filled with tears, they've been 471 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:33,830 Speaker 2: filled with laughter, but we throw out all the hard 472 00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:35,450 Speaker 2: stuff and put it on the table 473 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,380 Speaker 2: and have it all out and and when you can 474 00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:39,100 Speaker 2: do that 475 00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:42,540 Speaker 2: and you reach a common understanding ah now I get 476 00:24:42,540 --> 00:24:44,550 Speaker 2: it now I get it now I get why you're 477 00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:46,190 Speaker 2: so different from me now I get why you see 478 00:24:46,190 --> 00:24:48,620 Speaker 2: the world is different from me kind of knowing your history, 479 00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: knowing each other's histories, knowing each other's Proclivities and being 480 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,030 Speaker 2: able to say I accept that of you and I 481 00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: know that you know when you get angry or when 482 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,859 Speaker 2: you're happy and what are your triggers 483 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,139 Speaker 2: then having that mutual understanding of each person's personalities Proclivities 484 00:25:03,140 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 2: and potentially biased business 485 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,830 Speaker 2: and then bring it all out. Being honest with each other. 486 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,129 Speaker 2: Being really blatantly honest with each other. Having those uncomfortable 487 00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:14,459 Speaker 2: conversations upfront. 488 00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:17,180 Speaker 2: Breaking the borders in the barriers. 489 00:25:18,540 --> 00:25:21,270 Speaker 2: That's when the magic happens and that's when 490 00:25:21,740 --> 00:25:24,770 Speaker 2: crisis hits hands on deck. Come on guys 491 00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:27,980 Speaker 2: bring it up. You know how do we solve for this? 492 00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:32,170 Speaker 2: And that's why I think that's the kind of cultural 493 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,070 Speaker 2: ah defining moments that we've had now and we've had 494 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,060 Speaker 2: at our ceo level at at the board level with 495 00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:43,270 Speaker 2: with our chairman and the board. 496 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,070 Speaker 2: We've had that at the exco at at the the 497 00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:50,830 Speaker 2: management committee. We're having that now at my M. C. 498 00:25:50,830 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: Level And hopefully my you know my one and two 499 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: downs and and we want that to trickle down. It 500 00:25:56,369 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: hasn't fully trickled down to be honest table because we've 501 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,169 Speaker 2: been so busy managing crisis after another. 502 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,060 Speaker 2: Managing Covid managing war etcetera. But my hope is that 503 00:26:07,070 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 2: it can transcend because don't forget we are also doing 504 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,869 Speaker 2: massive transformation, massive change management at the time of of 505 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,550 Speaker 2: of of of stress. And that can't be easy and 506 00:26:18,550 --> 00:26:21,730 Speaker 2: and throwing covid and and working from home and it's 507 00:26:21,730 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: not easy. 508 00:26:22,570 --> 00:26:27,870 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Okay. So there are ways to have challenging conversations 509 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,460 Speaker 1: internally and at the board level. 510 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: How about externally you have a wide spectrum of clients 511 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,740 Speaker 1: and I'm approaching this from the climate change angle, some 512 00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: are looking at climate change mitigation seriously, some are not. 513 00:26:40,570 --> 00:26:43,030 Speaker 1: What kind of conversations are you having with your clients 514 00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:43,590 Speaker 1: on this? 515 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,510 Speaker 2: So, you know, the first generation or the older generation 516 00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 2: of client business owners 517 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,690 Speaker 2: um are now seeing that their second generation are intolerant 518 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:57,350 Speaker 2: of what the first generation has had done. 519 00:26:57,940 --> 00:27:01,100 Speaker 2: Um and so the next generation of business leaders are 520 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:04,670 Speaker 2: helping us with this course, right? Which which is which 521 00:27:04,670 --> 00:27:07,910 Speaker 2: is great. And the other is we tell our clients look, 522 00:27:07,910 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 2: we're not here to to to tell you not to 523 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: do business. We are here to help you to transit 524 00:27:14,970 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 2: from what is a brown business to a light brown 525 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:19,290 Speaker 2: business 526 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: to a light green olive e color. Then you can 527 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,870 Speaker 2: go to dark green, right? We acknowledge it's a journey 528 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: and that's why we have something called the transition framework. 529 00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:33,490 Speaker 2: We know it's a journey but guess what? We'll walk 530 00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:35,570 Speaker 2: this journey with you. We will help you with the 531 00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: financing will 532 00:27:36,540 --> 00:27:39,699 Speaker 2: heck we'll even help you to measure track and trace 533 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 2: one of your emissions. We will show you the glide 534 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,370 Speaker 2: path and we will help you along this glide path 535 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:50,330 Speaker 2: with the right financing tools to write structural advice um 536 00:27:50,340 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: and the best practices of your industry. So having that 537 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,530 Speaker 2: sort of conversation upfront, knowing that we know telling the customer. No, no, no, 538 00:27:57,530 --> 00:27:58,860 Speaker 2: it's not that we're not going to, 539 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,630 Speaker 2: you know, lend to you of course for some assets 540 00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: like coal and all that thermal coal, we don't but 541 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,739 Speaker 2: we don't land. But you know, as we guide our 542 00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:09,860 Speaker 2: clients through this path, they know that we know it's 543 00:28:09,859 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: a journey and I think that's a differentiator. They know 544 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: that we know that, you know, it will take time, 545 00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:19,619 Speaker 2: it will take some investments. But we're willing to walk 546 00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:22,179 Speaker 2: this journey with them were willing to finance these investments 547 00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:25,060 Speaker 2: because they make sense for your ultimate survival ship. 548 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: If your clients ain't gonna buy stuff that's brown, you 549 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,830 Speaker 2: ain't gonna sell, you don't sell, you don't get liquidity, 550 00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:32,700 Speaker 2: you don't get liquidity, you don't get paid, you don't 551 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:35,070 Speaker 2: get paid. I also don't get paid. So we're in 552 00:28:35,070 --> 00:28:38,300 Speaker 2: this together. So I think it's it's it's walking that 553 00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:42,060 Speaker 2: transition journey. It's helping them to identify the glide path 554 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,270 Speaker 2: and and and and and offering solutions solutions along the way. 555 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,750 Speaker 1: What kind of expertise have you built within the institutional 556 00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:51,510 Speaker 1: banking group to help clients along this 557 00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: journey. So we've identified the top nine industries together with 558 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,130 Speaker 2: the third party consultant. My industry heads Country head segment 559 00:29:00,130 --> 00:29:03,860 Speaker 2: sets are all heavily embedded in the industry best practice? 560 00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:06,290 Speaker 2: How do you track one of the measurements of tracking, 561 00:29:06,290 --> 00:29:08,470 Speaker 2: tracking and tracing and measuring is the first thing you 562 00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:12,150 Speaker 2: need to do? How much, you know, per per dollar 563 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: per per million dollars of revenue? Are you admitting how 564 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,690 Speaker 2: much per kilowatt hour, whatever whatever the measurement is in 565 00:29:17,690 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 2: your industry? We are now helping you right, because this 566 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,300 Speaker 2: is part of our whole scope three measurements. So once 567 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:25,270 Speaker 2: we start to track 568 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,670 Speaker 2: and measure then we can start having this conversation. Okay 569 00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: Look, Mr Client, you know, by 2025, where do you 570 00:29:32,130 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: think you could be? And by 2030 where do you 571 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,770 Speaker 2: think you want to be? 572 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: Um and what's acceptable? What kind of costs? What kind 573 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,510 Speaker 2: of investments we need to do? We need as a 574 00:29:40,510 --> 00:29:42,650 Speaker 2: shipping companies need to invest in more scrubbers. Do we 575 00:29:42,650 --> 00:29:45,510 Speaker 2: need to or in fuel? Do we need to pivot 576 00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:49,140 Speaker 2: to different kind of fuel? What about investing in hydrogen? 577 00:29:49,140 --> 00:29:50,270 Speaker 2: What about, you know, 578 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: reducing our utility bills? What about, you know, greening your buildings, 579 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,590 Speaker 2: whatever it is. The conversations have already started in earnest. 580 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: A lot of our companies are walking this journey with us. 581 00:30:01,570 --> 00:30:05,350 Speaker 2: So we've been pleasantly surprised by the fact that most companies, 582 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,670 Speaker 2: most boards or boards I hope 583 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,890 Speaker 2: recognize that this imperative is here, It's here to stay. 584 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:16,030 Speaker 2: You can't ignore it because if you do, your stakeholders 585 00:30:16,030 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 2: will not accept this. 586 00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:23,930 Speaker 1: What about the intersection of climate mitigation related work and digital, 587 00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:27,380 Speaker 1: um is there like scope for those two things? To me? 588 00:30:27,380 --> 00:30:31,430 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm excited about that tomorrow because I think that's putting, 589 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,460 Speaker 2: I hope to of dBS expertise 590 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,130 Speaker 2: on the table and melding them together to create a 591 00:30:37,130 --> 00:30:38,270 Speaker 2: holistic solution, 592 00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:41,020 Speaker 2: Right? I think there is, I mean, first of all, 593 00:30:41,030 --> 00:30:44,930 Speaker 2: digitizing um your journey and to end means you're taking 594 00:30:44,930 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: out a lot of operational slack, administrative slack and paper, 595 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:52,930 Speaker 2: Right? And it's also if you use the Blockchain, you 596 00:30:52,930 --> 00:30:56,060 Speaker 2: can track and trace the provenance of your trade supply chain. 597 00:30:56,070 --> 00:30:58,830 Speaker 2: That's exciting for us, right. You know, being able to 598 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,450 Speaker 2: track and trace whether it's, you know, carbon credits, your 599 00:31:03,450 --> 00:31:07,810 Speaker 2: supply chain of goods, textiles, et cetera. There are a 600 00:31:07,810 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 2: lot of exciting platforms, you know, 601 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,970 Speaker 2: that we're working with that can help us also to 602 00:31:12,970 --> 00:31:15,050 Speaker 2: do this. We can't do everything ourselves. But finding the 603 00:31:15,050 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 2: right ecosystem partners that can help us along the way 604 00:31:17,370 --> 00:31:18,670 Speaker 2: for each industry, 605 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,870 Speaker 2: that's what's exciting. And then, you know, when you have 606 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,670 Speaker 2: the data, 607 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,260 Speaker 2: you're tracking, 608 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 2: you know, what you need to do, 609 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,540 Speaker 2: that's that's that's that's that's the that's the foundation of 610 00:31:30,550 --> 00:31:33,310 Speaker 2: of what we're going to build our sustainability solutions on, 611 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,630 Speaker 2: you know, being able to track what you do, track 612 00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:39,870 Speaker 2: your admissions figure out, set a target and use digital 613 00:31:39,870 --> 00:31:41,670 Speaker 2: solutions to help you to get that, 614 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,090 Speaker 2: That's what's exciting. 615 00:31:43,740 --> 00:31:47,060 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I also think about the C. I. X. Climate 616 00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:50,900 Speaker 1: impact exchange where hopefully there will be, there's this meeting 617 00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:53,850 Speaker 1: of the minds that will be Hfts or tokens that 618 00:31:53,860 --> 00:31:55,310 Speaker 1: will capture carbon credit and that can be 619 00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: there you go. You know, you've got N. F. T. 620 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,070 Speaker 2: S with carbon credits today, we have a carbon exchange 621 00:32:00,070 --> 00:32:04,170 Speaker 2: that we're, you know, we're excited to start business on, 622 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: we're starting to finance carbon credits as well, new Zealand 623 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,270 Speaker 2: carbon credits etcetera. So 624 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: it's it's it's all happening now um and and it's 625 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: exciting and it's happening fast and and and both, you know, 626 00:32:16,930 --> 00:32:19,650 Speaker 2: banks and and customers are embracing this. 627 00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So there are banks, their customers, they're also what 628 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: we call stakeholders in general. So in the west there's 629 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,170 Speaker 1: a lot of talk about this stakeholder accountability 630 00:32:28,540 --> 00:32:31,770 Speaker 1: sitting here in Asia are we begin to see that 631 00:32:31,780 --> 00:32:32,370 Speaker 1: take place as 632 00:32:32,370 --> 00:32:35,810 Speaker 2: well. I think we are, I think governments are helping. 633 00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:39,430 Speaker 2: It's heartening to see many governments are no longer just 634 00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:41,740 Speaker 2: paying lip service to it. I mean here in Singapore, 635 00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:46,270 Speaker 2: for example, the green bond project that that's been announced many, 636 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,910 Speaker 2: many green initiatives from the M. A. S. You know, 637 00:32:48,910 --> 00:32:50,050 Speaker 2: green prints etcetera. 638 00:32:50,540 --> 00:32:53,570 Speaker 2: I think it's no longer a lip service. It's it's 639 00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:57,140 Speaker 2: now how and what right, what should we do? Should 640 00:32:57,140 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 2: we issue more infrastructure, green bonds? We invest, we invest, 641 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,690 Speaker 2: we're putting real money into build reel green infrastructure, whether 642 00:33:04,690 --> 00:33:09,350 Speaker 2: it's charging stations for E. V. S. You know, ah 643 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 2: better better infrastructure for countries that needed pivoting to hydrogen. 644 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,650 Speaker 2: There's massive amount of hydrogen investments down emerging in some 645 00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:23,180 Speaker 2: emerging markets that are exciting including India for example. Um 646 00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:26,750 Speaker 2: there's a lot of investments in wind farms in Taiwan etcetera. 647 00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: So I think 648 00:33:27,740 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: there's a lot of real money now going into these 649 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,450 Speaker 2: programs um and real energy and real support going into 650 00:33:35,450 --> 00:33:39,580 Speaker 2: these programs and and and and and that will that 651 00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:39,950 Speaker 2: will 652 00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: I guess spur and incentivize a lot more trickled down 653 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,930 Speaker 2: from from from you know big caps to mid caps 654 00:33:46,930 --> 00:33:47,770 Speaker 2: and small caps. 655 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,580 Speaker 1: And when we talk about climate change related opportunities for 656 00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:54,390 Speaker 1: banks of course in Singapore, we are seeing as you 657 00:33:54,390 --> 00:33:57,570 Speaker 1: rightly said that whether it's the government's nudges or more 658 00:33:57,580 --> 00:33:59,690 Speaker 1: aware corporate, you know, we're seeing a lot of movement 659 00:33:59,690 --> 00:34:01,900 Speaker 1: in the right direction but dBS is not just in 660 00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: Singapore in our regional core markets. 661 00:34:04,740 --> 00:34:07,010 Speaker 1: Do you see a fairly decent momentum? 662 00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. I mean we see a lot of momentum 663 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,969 Speaker 2: in India, I talked about, you know, the various 664 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,779 Speaker 2: um renewable companies that that are springing out of traditional 665 00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:17,170 Speaker 2: companies are pivoting 666 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,950 Speaker 2: um you know, we see in china a lot of focus. 667 00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:25,370 Speaker 2: I mean china has embraced the sustainability journey had you know, 668 00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:28,509 Speaker 2: head on and a lot of our whether it's solar 669 00:34:28,510 --> 00:34:33,180 Speaker 2: panels or ah you know agriculture etcetera. There's a lot 670 00:34:33,180 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 2: of investments now happening 671 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: China India Indonesia to Indonesia is so rich and mangrove, 672 00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:40,260 Speaker 2: pete 673 00:34:40,620 --> 00:34:43,469 Speaker 2: the government for a start is trying to monetize it. 674 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,220 Speaker 2: You know palm oil producers are all and mostly embracing 675 00:34:48,219 --> 00:34:51,779 Speaker 2: this journey um and being compliant to to to to 676 00:34:51,780 --> 00:34:55,910 Speaker 2: what the industry benchmarks are. Um so I think our 677 00:34:55,910 --> 00:34:58,860 Speaker 2: biggest markets around here including Vietnam 678 00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:02,529 Speaker 2: ah so it's not just a western story tomorrow. It's 679 00:35:02,530 --> 00:35:06,590 Speaker 2: definitely an asian story and it's it's it's here, it's jermaine. 680 00:35:06,590 --> 00:35:07,469 Speaker 2: It's it's happening. 681 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,750 Speaker 1: No, it's absolutely germane. I'm pretty sure that in our 682 00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:12,950 Speaker 1: lifetime we will see negative impact on climate change really 683 00:35:12,950 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: affect our personal lives unless we get serious about it. 684 00:35:15,610 --> 00:35:18,970 Speaker 1: And without green financing and the bank's being in the middle. 685 00:35:18,969 --> 00:35:21,140 Speaker 1: I really don't see how that can happen. So it's 686 00:35:21,140 --> 00:35:24,860 Speaker 1: absolutely worthy juncture. Um Suzanne 687 00:35:24,940 --> 00:35:27,950 Speaker 1: at the very beginning of our conversation, you talked about 688 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,580 Speaker 1: inflation related issues. So you know we had covid inflation 689 00:35:31,590 --> 00:35:33,700 Speaker 1: as you said demand destruction but at the same time 690 00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:37,610 Speaker 1: supply chain got disrupted and certain product prices, demand went 691 00:35:37,610 --> 00:35:41,629 Speaker 1: through and therefore the prices rose auto uh used auto 692 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,689 Speaker 1: for example. Now we have conflict inflation with this conflict 693 00:35:45,690 --> 00:35:46,170 Speaker 1: and so on. 694 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,299 Speaker 1: So your sense of the macro environment and and how 695 00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:52,810 Speaker 1: does a bank sort of stay on the safe side 696 00:35:52,820 --> 00:35:55,860 Speaker 1: through this volatility of prices and interest rates. 697 00:35:56,340 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: So UDA. And so I think a lot of this 698 00:36:01,969 --> 00:36:06,510 Speaker 2: is being on top of what's going on. You know, 699 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 2: I mean thanks to our mobile phones and constant 24 700 00:36:09,890 --> 00:36:12,750 Speaker 2: 7 news, most people are today 701 00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:15,050 Speaker 2: um and being 702 00:36:15,630 --> 00:36:17,550 Speaker 2: able to have those open 703 00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 2: honest conversations with clients, especially big clients. 704 00:36:21,230 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 2: 24/7 I think that's important. So that's how we're, you know, 705 00:36:24,650 --> 00:36:27,569 Speaker 2: it's it's kind of divide and conquer, right, industries, countries 706 00:36:27,570 --> 00:36:31,830 Speaker 2: divide and conquer, but the central kind of regional hub, 707 00:36:31,830 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 2: if you will, it's here to support to give all 708 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: kinds of support that you need from digitalization, sustainable, you know, 709 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,650 Speaker 2: stress testing, etc, etc. 710 00:36:39,930 --> 00:36:42,220 Speaker 2: We're here to give support, but if you are in 711 00:36:42,219 --> 00:36:46,250 Speaker 2: country you're the industry had worked together, not heads together, 712 00:36:46,260 --> 00:36:49,550 Speaker 2: get what's going on, find the bad stuff surface the 713 00:36:49,550 --> 00:36:53,810 Speaker 2: bad stuff early create solutions, you know, and if it's 714 00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:57,650 Speaker 2: too late to create solutions then have those tough conversations, 715 00:36:57,660 --> 00:37:00,540 Speaker 2: get some help from from the restructuring team 716 00:37:00,730 --> 00:37:02,350 Speaker 2: restructure early, 717 00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:02,750 Speaker 2: okay. 718 00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:05,150 Speaker 2: If you can restructure early, 719 00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: provide liquidity such situations early and work with other banks, 720 00:37:09,610 --> 00:37:12,340 Speaker 2: there is a good, you know, if the company is 721 00:37:12,350 --> 00:37:15,950 Speaker 2: actually structurally sound, there is a chance of resurgence, we've 722 00:37:15,950 --> 00:37:19,379 Speaker 2: done some very good restructuring work in the last two 723 00:37:19,380 --> 00:37:22,510 Speaker 2: years where we've helped companies kind of go through the 724 00:37:22,510 --> 00:37:25,540 Speaker 2: stress together and come out stronger, better 725 00:37:25,730 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 2: and fundamentally stronger. 726 00:37:27,830 --> 00:37:31,030 Speaker 2: Um and and that speaks to the dbs kind of 727 00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 2: long term relationship ethos, right? We're not there for the 728 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,210 Speaker 2: good times only were there for the bad times and 729 00:37:37,210 --> 00:37:39,450 Speaker 2: we've gone through a few bad times in the last 730 00:37:39,450 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 2: three years and we've been there for them, 731 00:37:42,330 --> 00:37:45,029 Speaker 2: right? And we've been there early and we've been honest 732 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 2: with our clients and we hope that our clients are 733 00:37:46,969 --> 00:37:49,330 Speaker 2: honest with us and, and surface that the tough issues 734 00:37:49,330 --> 00:37:49,739 Speaker 2: early 735 00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:54,770 Speaker 1: 10 year rates well over 2%, perhaps even going towards 3% 736 00:37:54,770 --> 00:37:57,509 Speaker 1: at some point this year or next. Does that create 737 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,149 Speaker 1: serious headwind for the property sector? 738 00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:04,850 Speaker 2: Well, I think the property sector has suffered less from 739 00:38:04,850 --> 00:38:09,110 Speaker 2: rates and more from structural policy, you know, dictates from 740 00:38:09,110 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 2: their governments. You know, it could be, you know, china 741 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,189 Speaker 2: with the three red lines Singapore with the TDS are 742 00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 2: or the various, you know, a BSD taxes that are sticky. 743 00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:23,530 Speaker 2: Um I think no government wants to see rampant asset 744 00:38:23,530 --> 00:38:28,270 Speaker 2: price inflation from property speculation or bubbles forming because it 745 00:38:28,270 --> 00:38:31,460 Speaker 2: does create social issues where only the rich get richer, 746 00:38:31,469 --> 00:38:34,650 Speaker 2: very low interest rates means the rich can borrow more 747 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,590 Speaker 2: to then speculate more and then they make more wealth. 748 00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:40,610 Speaker 2: And then you get you get this massive bifurcation of 749 00:38:40,620 --> 00:38:42,730 Speaker 2: the rich get richer and the poor can never afford 750 00:38:42,730 --> 00:38:43,450 Speaker 2: their property. 751 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,330 Speaker 2: Actually, something that I'm very interested in this. There were 752 00:38:46,330 --> 00:38:48,550 Speaker 2: speeches that I made in Parliament when I was a 753 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: member when I was nominated Member of Parliament, where I 754 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,570 Speaker 2: felt that actually low interest rates, if, if not coupled 755 00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:59,450 Speaker 2: with macro prudential policies will lead to this exacerbation of 756 00:38:59,460 --> 00:39:00,340 Speaker 2: the rich and poor 757 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,529 Speaker 2: precisely because property bubbles get bigger and bigger until they 758 00:39:03,530 --> 00:39:04,529 Speaker 2: pop right. 759 00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: And and I think governments have gotten onto, you know, 760 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,370 Speaker 2: using macroprudential policies to to to dampen the feet of 761 00:39:13,370 --> 00:39:17,530 Speaker 2: the fervor and property asset prices. Um, so I think, 762 00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:22,430 Speaker 2: you know, rising rates are just a mechanism to to 763 00:39:22,430 --> 00:39:24,590 Speaker 2: to re price the price of money. I think the 764 00:39:24,590 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: price of money has been too low for too long, 765 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 2: and we're now finally getting to a point where they're 766 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,250 Speaker 2: no longer too low, the reflecting real asset prices and 767 00:39:34,250 --> 00:39:38,290 Speaker 2: real inflation, and that's not wrong. So I actually don't 768 00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 2: think that that that higher interest rates, of course, they're 769 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 2: going to hurt if you are very leveraged, which hopefully 770 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 2: by now you're not because of all the macro prudential 771 00:39:46,210 --> 00:39:48,029 Speaker 2: policies that have been upon, you 772 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,540 Speaker 2: Reads, you know, have a 45% cap on them, 773 00:39:51,219 --> 00:39:58,089 Speaker 2: scaring, you know, many, many, many, many big cap developers 774 00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:00,240 Speaker 2: have been pretty 775 00:40:00,610 --> 00:40:02,530 Speaker 2: pretty conservative with their gearing, 776 00:40:02,910 --> 00:40:05,390 Speaker 2: maybe the building and construction guys, but they won't be 777 00:40:05,390 --> 00:40:09,210 Speaker 2: affected as much by high rates as high prices of labor, 778 00:40:09,210 --> 00:40:13,100 Speaker 2: high prices of commodities, supply chain issues, that kind of thing, 779 00:40:13,110 --> 00:40:15,029 Speaker 2: I think is really more of an issue. 780 00:40:15,810 --> 00:40:19,049 Speaker 1: Absolutely spot on solution. Just to underscore one point. So, 781 00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:21,660 Speaker 1: your argument that, you know, low interest rates are bad 782 00:40:21,660 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: for inequality, I I heard Nobel laureate paul Krugman echoed 783 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: that argument just last week, where he felt that higher 784 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,629 Speaker 1: rates are actually very progressive way of pursuing policy, because 785 00:40:31,210 --> 00:40:33,950 Speaker 1: clearly the gearing is bigger at the higher end of 786 00:40:33,950 --> 00:40:37,060 Speaker 1: the income spectrum and their interest sensitivity is greater at 787 00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: the low end a little bit of interest rate generation, 788 00:40:39,290 --> 00:40:40,790 Speaker 1: the kind of credit that they have access to. It 789 00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: doesn't really change. So yeah. Point very well taken a 790 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: simpleton would look at the banking sector and should say 791 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,750 Speaker 1: the bank share prices should rally when interest rates go 792 00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:52,180 Speaker 1: up because yield curves are steep and names are going 793 00:40:52,180 --> 00:40:52,930 Speaker 1: to expand, 794 00:40:53,090 --> 00:40:53,820 Speaker 1: is that correct? 795 00:40:54,210 --> 00:40:57,390 Speaker 2: Well, on the one hand it is because, you know, 796 00:40:57,390 --> 00:41:00,340 Speaker 2: our names are expanding. But on the other hand, with 797 00:41:00,340 --> 00:41:03,220 Speaker 2: every crisis comes to credit credit issues, right? We just 798 00:41:03,219 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 2: saw Jpmorgan's numbers a couple of days back and that 799 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,210 Speaker 2: suggested there was some credit stresses. Um And and so 800 00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:11,430 Speaker 2: we can't be complacent. 801 00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 2: I mean we'll take the high rate. Thank you very much. 802 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 2: We suffered for lower rates for long enough, 803 00:41:15,310 --> 00:41:18,760 Speaker 2: but now is the time to look at our sme portfolio, 804 00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 2: look at some of the more badly affected industries and 805 00:41:21,930 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 2: and really stressed system and make sure that they do 806 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,739 Speaker 2: survive this inflation stagflation problem that's upon us. 807 00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:34,130 Speaker 1: And overall 22 23 Outlook, you think is going to 808 00:41:34,130 --> 00:41:36,770 Speaker 1: be as challenging as the last couple of years. 809 00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:39,060 Speaker 2: I think it's going to be tiring. I think we're 810 00:41:39,060 --> 00:41:41,490 Speaker 2: used to the challenges. I'm really proud of my team. 811 00:41:41,489 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 2: I think we've you know assembled a good team um 812 00:41:46,810 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: you know, and I. B. G. In an institutional banking 813 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:49,830 Speaker 2: group 814 00:41:50,210 --> 00:41:54,430 Speaker 2: that um has has has banded together through ups and downs. 815 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,630 Speaker 2: Um and I think it's just being agile. You know, 816 00:41:58,630 --> 00:42:01,209 Speaker 2: people talk about EQ and EQ, but I talk about 817 00:42:01,219 --> 00:42:04,110 Speaker 2: a cue, the adaptability quotient is being agile and being 818 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:05,930 Speaker 2: able to adapt quickly to different, 819 00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 2: you know, we'll take whatever the world gives us because 820 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,620 Speaker 2: we're so used to living in a book a world, 821 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 2: but also then working with our customers to help them 822 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,700 Speaker 2: adapt and help them be flexible, be it right, housing rates, 823 00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 2: you know, rising rates or high commodity prices or whatever 824 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,050 Speaker 2: policy changes there are. Um But I do think that 825 00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:28,090 Speaker 2: people do recognize the world is a different place today 826 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:30,510 Speaker 2: than it was say 23 years ago. Very very different. 827 00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:33,990 Speaker 2: Um and there will be new winners and losers. And 828 00:42:33,989 --> 00:42:37,660 Speaker 2: it's our job to kind of identify the winners early. 829 00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:41,219 Speaker 2: Which is why we've also started this digital um in 830 00:42:41,230 --> 00:42:43,919 Speaker 2: economic group, the D. G. Or the new economy group 831 00:42:43,930 --> 00:42:47,060 Speaker 2: because we recognize that through these crisis is that will 832 00:42:47,060 --> 00:42:51,479 Speaker 2: emerge new champions right and true to our culture of 833 00:42:51,489 --> 00:42:52,020 Speaker 2: you know, 834 00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:56,020 Speaker 2: lifelong banking and lifelong relationships. We start when you're small. 835 00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:59,340 Speaker 2: Well, we'll start nursing you when you're a startup and 836 00:42:59,340 --> 00:43:01,760 Speaker 2: will grow with you as you become less of a startup, 837 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,850 Speaker 2: more of a mid cap and from a mid cap 838 00:43:03,850 --> 00:43:06,310 Speaker 2: to a unicorn or a Sunni corn as we call them. 839 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: We will walk this journey of growth with you 840 00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 2: So I am both optimistic but also you know being 841 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,700 Speaker 2: a bit ambidextrous. So you call this empty black leadership. 842 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:19,660 Speaker 2: You're looking at the long term you know trying to 843 00:43:19,660 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 2: find new winners and you're looking at the short term 844 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,209 Speaker 2: to make sure you know what's happening now doesn't kill 845 00:43:24,210 --> 00:43:26,850 Speaker 2: you or kill our clients. Right? So kind of being 846 00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:28,820 Speaker 2: ambidextrous and being agile. 847 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,069 Speaker 2: So it's this kind of pivot ambidextrous and and and 848 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,930 Speaker 2: agility that I think dbs has in our culture 849 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,510 Speaker 2: and that's why I think we will prevail. I know 850 00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:43,260 Speaker 2: we will prevail. Sorry I don't think I know we 851 00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 2: will provide confident that with with with the strong leadership 852 00:43:46,330 --> 00:43:48,830 Speaker 2: we have infused with a strong leadership we have in 853 00:43:48,830 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 2: the in the group M. C. And the exco and 854 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,739 Speaker 2: the people that the commitment of our people to what 855 00:43:53,739 --> 00:43:56,260 Speaker 2: we're doing the common purpose that drives us. I think 856 00:43:56,260 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 2: that's what's gonna keep us ahead 857 00:43:58,650 --> 00:44:00,670 Speaker 1: and that's a great note to end on. Thank you 858 00:44:00,670 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: so much for your time and insight. 859 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,540 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you for my copy. See you next time. 860 00:44:04,540 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And thanks to our listeners as well copy time 861 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: was produced by ken Del Ridge of Spy Studios daisy 862 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: Sharma and validly provided additional assistance. All 75 episodes of 863 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,010 Speaker 1: copy time are now available on youtube 864 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: google. Spotify 865 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,050 Speaker 1: and apple. Thank you very much for your time and 866 00:44:22,050 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: insights and as for 867 00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:25,430 Speaker 1: okay I'm gonna do that part. One more time. Okay. 868 00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: Thanks to our listeners to Kobe time was produced by 869 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,049 Speaker 1: ken Del Ridge from Spy Studios, daisy Sharma and violently 870 00:44:32,050 --> 00:44:35,810 Speaker 1: provided additional assistance. Kobe time is for information only and 871 00:44:35,810 --> 00:44:39,370 Speaker 1: does not represent any trade recommendations. All 75 episodes of 872 00:44:39,370 --> 00:44:42,210 Speaker 1: Kobe time are available now on Youtube and all major 873 00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: podcast platforms, including Apple, google and Spotify. 874 00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: As for our research publications, webinars and live streams. 875 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,210 Speaker 1: You can find them all by googling Devious Research Library. 876 00:44:51,420 --> 00:44:52,250 Speaker 1: Have a great day. 877 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,010 Speaker 1: Okay.