WEBVTT - Kopi Time E066: Danny Quah’s trampoline metaphor 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:07.650 Mhm. 0:00:09.539 --> 0:00:12.690 You're listening to Kobe time, a podcast series on markets 0:00:12.690 --> 0:00:16.390 and economies from DBS group research. I'm tomorrow. Big chief economist, 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.659 Welcome to our 66th episode. 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.900 I first saw Danny Quah in action as a sharp 0:00:22.910 --> 0:00:25.610 and rigorous professor at the London School of Economics Way 0:00:25.610 --> 0:00:27.160 Back in 1993. 0:00:27.740 --> 0:00:32.240 Well through various career advancement since then, Professor Quan now 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.620 is the leak gushing professor in economics and dean at 0:00:35.620 --> 0:00:38.500 the lee Kwan Yew School of Public Policy, which resides 0:00:38.510 --> 0:00:40.550 in the National University of Singapore 0:00:40.940 --> 0:00:46.059 these days. His research focuses on inequality, income mobility, international 0:00:46.060 --> 0:00:50.130 systems of Trade and Finance and war order among superpowers. 0:00:50.140 --> 0:00:53.540 Professor who is also a commissioner on the Spence Stiglitz 0:00:53.540 --> 0:00:57.210 Commission on Global Economic transformation and serves on the executive 0:00:57.210 --> 0:00:59.960 committee of the International Economic Association or I. E. A. 0:01:00.340 --> 0:01:03.330 He is also at the advisory board of LSE ideas 0:01:03.340 --> 0:01:07.290 is an in the imminent advisory council of the UNDP 0:01:07.290 --> 0:01:10.949 Bureau of Asia for Asia pacific and the World Economic 0:01:10.950 --> 0:01:15.720 Forum's Global Future Council for Geopolitics. Professor Danica, Welcome to 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:16.260 Kobe time. 0:01:17.340 --> 0:01:18.260 Hello, how are you 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.539 Create? It's been a long time coming. I'm so pleased 0:01:21.540 --> 0:01:24.570 that we have you on Kofi time today uh squad 0:01:24.580 --> 0:01:28.240 if I may, let's begin with the immediate juncture the 0:01:28.250 --> 0:01:32.170 global economy and the pandemic. A few of your thoughts 0:01:32.170 --> 0:01:34.560 please on how 2022 is shaping up. 0:01:35.540 --> 0:01:37.819 Okay first it's a great honor to be part of 0:01:37.819 --> 0:01:40.100 your code. But yeah, you know, I followed the series 0:01:40.100 --> 0:01:42.459 and I'm glad that I managed to start in and 0:01:42.459 --> 0:01:47.360 number 66. Actually, it's great fun. Um 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:52.660 Thinking about the global economy or the regional economy for 2022, 0:01:53.340 --> 0:01:56.060 I think that we are still at a point where 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.750 we might be described as a situation of tentative 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:02.850 contingency. 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:08.240 There's lots of uncertainties, the stages that we've got to 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.080 look like there might be bright ways ahead, but there's 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.450 still a long way to go before we're out of 0:02:13.450 --> 0:02:14.460 the woods. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.260 I think if I had to put my finger on 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.059 three on a number of things or any number of things, 0:02:21.540 --> 0:02:24.300 I would say three things that are gonna matter that 0:02:24.300 --> 0:02:25.459 we need to watch. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:27.760 The first of these 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.060 is great power rivalry 0:02:30.940 --> 0:02:32.760 china and the United States 0:02:33.139 --> 0:02:36.050 Russia entering the free in europe, 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:41.709 the european union continuing to settle in as a global 0:02:41.710 --> 0:02:44.760 force to be reckoned with. Great power rivalry 0:02:45.139 --> 0:02:49.329 hugely impactful for our part of the world, where so 0:02:49.330 --> 0:02:51.980 much of our livelihood, so much of our well being 0:02:51.990 --> 0:02:53.360 hinges 0:02:53.740 --> 0:02:58.200 on a stable international system, on international system with rules 0:02:58.210 --> 0:03:03.220 that benefit our economy. So first thing great power rivalry 0:03:03.220 --> 0:03:04.750 for us to look at and that 0:03:05.139 --> 0:03:08.060 as you and I and all, all your listeners know 0:03:08.070 --> 0:03:10.720 is in a state of turmoil. Every now and then 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:15.220 we see a bright spot but still lots of things unsettled. 0:03:15.230 --> 0:03:16.860 So that's the first part 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.460 of the tentative contingency. 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.960 The second I might say is the pandemic 0:03:25.340 --> 0:03:27.650 after vaccines came online. 0:03:28.139 --> 0:03:30.400 The world looked like it was also in a good place. 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.660 There was a clear trajectory forwards. 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.900 We were hit then by delta and now the only 0:03:35.900 --> 0:03:37.660 grown white variants. 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.360 It's not at all clear 0:03:40.740 --> 0:03:43.520 where we're gonna go with this because the evidence is 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:48.750 not in yet on how the vaccines will manage relative 0:03:48.750 --> 0:03:53.140 to the omicron variant. And the only crown variant itself, 0:03:53.150 --> 0:03:54.960 it's not clear yet 0:03:55.540 --> 0:04:01.920 its impact on the things that matter serious illness, mortality. 0:04:01.930 --> 0:04:05.260 I see you take uptick 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:06.960 hospital bed 0:04:07.340 --> 0:04:11.360 usage. None of these things is yet clear. But we 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.740 do know it is a highly infectious variant and it's 0:04:14.740 --> 0:04:17.260 already in many, many parts of the world. 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.290 And I suppose the last of the three legs that 0:04:20.290 --> 0:04:22.909 I am keeping an eye on as we look ahead 0:04:22.910 --> 0:04:24.150 to 2022 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.150 is what's happening to trade. The globalization system. 0:04:29.540 --> 0:04:30.160 No, 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.539 The 1990s that you were just harking back to a 0:04:34.540 --> 0:04:38.349 and I think myself to with great nostalgia and fondness 0:04:38.740 --> 0:04:41.950 Running into the 2000s was a period of 0:04:42.339 --> 0:04:46.450 rising hyper globalization. 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.059 The ideal there was that very soon we could see 0:04:51.070 --> 0:04:52.360 for all of us 0:04:52.940 --> 0:04:54.050 that anything 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:55.849 me anywhere 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:57.250 on the planet 0:04:58.140 --> 0:05:02.960 would be available to everyone everywhere else on earth. 0:05:03.540 --> 0:05:06.740 There was an exciting time to be alive to think 0:05:06.740 --> 0:05:11.050 about how ideas, goods and services would disseminate across the world, 0:05:11.050 --> 0:05:14.760 bringing prosperity to everyone on the planet. 0:05:15.140 --> 0:05:17.450 We're not in that situation. Now, 0:05:17.940 --> 0:05:22.339 Trade might be described as an attenuated trade Yes. Access 0:05:22.339 --> 0:05:23.460 abated by 0:05:23.940 --> 0:05:29.630 great power rivalry shaken by pandemic, but long before this, 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:34.440 there were forces in play that would profoundly change the 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.750 way we view trade among others. 0:05:37.339 --> 0:05:41.180 The impact of trade on the distribution of well being 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.250 within all of our societies. 0:05:44.339 --> 0:05:48.440 The impact of train as it continued to change in 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.150 character from a situation where, 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:53.860 you know, pretty much everything 0:05:55.140 --> 0:05:58.440 that you wanted to buy, you could see your new 0:05:58.440 --> 0:05:59.550 way it was made 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.390 in one place on earth and from there it was 0:06:02.390 --> 0:06:07.310 then consumed everywhere else. Now there's practically nothing that's made 0:06:07.310 --> 0:06:13.330 in one single place. International trade is mostly about minimizing 0:06:13.339 --> 0:06:18.310 inventory holdings and maximizing the flow of value in intermediate 0:06:18.310 --> 0:06:19.060 inputs 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.060 across our planet. The great 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.350 evolution of the global supply chain and pandemic 0:06:26.540 --> 0:06:30.820 fears of populism and nationalism and great power rivalry of 0:06:30.820 --> 0:06:32.060 all conspiring 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.300 to make us worry about whether this system of globalized 0:06:36.310 --> 0:06:39.250 production and exchange can be sustained 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.660 and where we go from here with that system we 0:06:42.660 --> 0:06:45.400 don't really know yet. So I come back to these 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.960 three great forces, great power rivalry, 0:06:49.339 --> 0:06:50.150 pandemic 0:06:50.540 --> 0:06:53.050 and the new nature of a can you waited trade 0:06:53.050 --> 0:06:55.460 that we don't have a really good handle on. 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.310 So that's where I see 2022 and and the years 0:06:59.310 --> 0:06:59.750 to come. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.320 So it seems like you see a convergence between the 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.359 long term structural changes and the very near term. There 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.180 isn't that much of a difference between these two now 0:07:07.180 --> 0:07:07.560 and more. 0:07:07.940 --> 0:07:11.680 Absolutely. I think that is now, you know, the art 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.280 going forward is a seamless narrative. One thing is going 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.550 to lead to another and the things that are very 0:07:16.550 --> 0:07:17.360 far out 0:07:17.940 --> 0:07:22.400 Where, you know, our leaders, where our governments where international 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.750 system sees as a convergence point way out in the future. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.560 They will have impacted in for 2022. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.690 Right uh protocol. I was traveling last week and was 0:07:32.700 --> 0:07:35.850 in the in a discussion and a large companies boardroom 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.020 and they were outside advisers were speaking and some of 0:07:40.020 --> 0:07:43.540 their view, I mean, mostly Western observers. However, the view 0:07:43.540 --> 0:07:46.160 is that if things progress the way they are, the 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.870 way the dominant are falling, it will inevitably lead to war. 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:54.100 And therefore we need course corrections because we can let 0:07:54.100 --> 0:07:55.460 the status quo, sort of, you know, 0:07:55.740 --> 0:07:58.950 take us to that unfortunate or you know, very, very 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:03.510 undesirable situation. I want to talk to you about some 0:08:03.510 --> 0:08:06.800 of your recent writings uh and I know that you 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:08.360 are very concerned about 0:08:08.740 --> 0:08:13.270 worker welfare inequality among the haves and between the haves 0:08:13.270 --> 0:08:15.720 and the have nots and so on. Um and so 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.750 I want to start with the one narrow area which 0:08:17.750 --> 0:08:18.360 is sort of 0:08:18.940 --> 0:08:19.750 the 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.990 The the rights and the privileges enjoyed or not by 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.120 workers in the gig economy. So this trend began well 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.640 before the pandemic, but of course has accelerated substantially since 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.000 then in the us we keep hearing about the great resignation, 0:08:34.010 --> 0:08:35.780 but I think what we don't appreciate is that some 0:08:35.780 --> 0:08:39.340 of the great resignation is manifesting into people leaving formal 0:08:39.340 --> 0:08:41.260 9-5 jobs into becoming 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.580 a contractor for amazon or just doing things out of 0:08:44.580 --> 0:08:49.410 home operating in the economy. So you are the vice 0:08:49.410 --> 0:08:52.310 chair of a committee in Singapore, tasked to look into 0:08:52.309 --> 0:08:55.490 the protections for Cape workers here. So, your thoughts on 0:08:55.490 --> 0:08:56.050 this place. 0:08:56.740 --> 0:09:00.460 Okay. Um, thank you. Let's dive into that. But if 0:09:00.460 --> 0:09:02.900 I may, can I just take take a minute to 0:09:02.900 --> 0:09:06.100 reflect on on what you described as the views of 0:09:06.100 --> 0:09:07.559 many Western observers. 0:09:07.940 --> 0:09:12.130 The war is inevitable. There's there's been this this hypothesis 0:09:12.140 --> 0:09:15.760 that the world is in the so called facilities trap, 0:09:16.540 --> 0:09:19.710 that the international system that we've had for seven decades, 0:09:19.710 --> 0:09:24.699 if not longer is not capable of managing with the 0:09:24.700 --> 0:09:26.950 rise of a new superpower 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:27.860 china. 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.050 And that the incumbent hegemony of the United States for 0:09:32.050 --> 0:09:35.580 whatever reason, structural reasons or reasons of bragging rights or 0:09:35.580 --> 0:09:39.950 reasons of actual inability to just to deal with the 0:09:39.950 --> 0:09:43.929 competition or really out of the feeling of benevolence towards 0:09:43.929 --> 0:09:45.849 the rest of the world, keep the world safe as 0:09:45.850 --> 0:09:46.350 it were, 0:09:46.540 --> 0:09:49.360 needs to take on this rising challenges the 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.330 whole slew of narratives on this. I think that is 0:09:52.330 --> 0:09:55.740 quite important that, you know, even as the West worries 0:09:55.740 --> 0:09:58.460 about this inevitable drive towards war, 0:09:58.940 --> 0:10:01.630 we have to you and I and and all of 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.189 all of the listeners to your program and everyone around us. 0:10:04.190 --> 0:10:05.560 We need to realize that 0:10:05.940 --> 0:10:06.860 actually 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.560 80% of the world 0:10:10.340 --> 0:10:13.060 lives in neither the United States nor china, 0:10:13.540 --> 0:10:18.660 the overwhelming majority of the world stands outside 0:10:19.340 --> 0:10:22.520 the competition between number one and number two. If indeed, 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.140 that's all it is a great power rivalries between number 0:10:25.140 --> 0:10:26.059 one and number two. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.270 And somehow this 80% of the world, which is the 0:10:29.270 --> 0:10:32.790 democratic majority, we are the ones who need to have 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.250 the legitimate say on how the international system evolves. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.660 We need to convince the great powers 0:10:41.140 --> 0:10:46.910 That heading into heading into a one on one competition 0:10:46.910 --> 0:10:49.480 that will lead to violent conflagration is not good for 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.250 them and it's terrible for the world. It has no 0:10:53.250 --> 0:10:56.439 legitimacy for the rest of us who are just watching 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.010 the 80% of us who are the great democratic majority 0:11:00.020 --> 0:11:01.150 and how that 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.820 needs to unpack is something that I'm sure will occupy 0:11:04.820 --> 0:11:07.059 our conversation for a long time. So I could probably 0:11:07.059 --> 0:11:10.270 take a whole other topic, Let's correct you the word 0:11:10.270 --> 0:11:12.219 you wanted to to ask me about which is the 0:11:12.220 --> 0:11:13.260 gig workers, 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.570 the gig economy on the platform workers. And like you said, 0:11:16.580 --> 0:11:21.060 I'm lucky enough to to serve the nation on this committee. 0:11:21.059 --> 0:11:24.140 To look at the well being of the platform workers, 0:11:24.140 --> 0:11:26.059 the platform workers advisory committee 0:11:26.540 --> 0:11:29.150 constituted under the Ministry of manpower. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:31.060 And it seems like 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.210 is it very special isn't very complicated. I'd like to 0:11:35.210 --> 0:11:37.160 remember the following. 0:11:37.540 --> 0:11:40.150 We the will has always had 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.990 in different parts, a gig economy side to it. Well 0:11:44.990 --> 0:11:49.069 as therefore always had platform workers who work in the 0:11:49.070 --> 0:11:50.050 gig economy. 0:11:50.740 --> 0:11:53.949 Uh And it's simply the case that today 0:11:54.540 --> 0:12:02.040 technology, information technology, data networks algorithms have all brought us 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.780 to a point where there will be more and more 0:12:05.790 --> 0:12:09.300 of us involved in the gig economy, involved in in 0:12:09.309 --> 0:12:12.590 platform working. So the issues that we're trying to deal 0:12:12.590 --> 0:12:14.250 with in this committee, 0:12:14.740 --> 0:12:18.880 although for now they reflect on a relatively small part 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.080 of the Singapore workforce, they reflect on a much larger 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:27.650 portion of the global economy's labor force and I suspect 0:12:27.650 --> 0:12:30.550 will become more and more important for all of us. 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:32.650 You know, there's actually 0:12:33.140 --> 0:12:34.760 In the early 20th century 0:12:35.940 --> 0:12:37.650 paul, Erdos sh 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.160 Is one of was one of the world's greatest mathematicians 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.069 worked in the 20th century. And and I don't know 0:12:44.070 --> 0:12:47.260 if you remember this from your days at LSE he 0:12:47.740 --> 0:12:51.370 had no permanent home, he had no permanent contract with 0:12:51.380 --> 0:12:55.079 any university. He would travel around the world living out 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:59.979 of a suitcase working to solve mathematical problems with collaborators everywhere. 0:12:59.980 --> 0:13:01.859 He went around the planet. 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:08.059 He wrote over 1500 mathematical papers. Still a record. 0:13:08.540 --> 0:13:09.950 He was a gig worker. 0:13:10.740 --> 0:13:13.640 He was using a gig economy that worked around the 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.189 production of mathematics that could be chopped up into chunks 0:13:17.220 --> 0:13:22.050 solving mathematical theorems, proving mathematical theorems everywhere he went. 0:13:22.540 --> 0:13:27.380 And what we see today is that information technology, data 0:13:27.380 --> 0:13:28.360 networks 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:33.059 algorithms have made that kind of work 0:13:33.540 --> 0:13:35.250 both available 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.260 and indeed necessary for many of us around the world. 0:13:39.740 --> 0:13:43.630 So where is shown up now? Uh, the platform workers 0:13:43.630 --> 0:13:47.260 that this this committee is looking at, which are 0:13:48.140 --> 0:13:49.660 right hailing drivers, 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.859 taxi drivers, delivery workers, 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:58.390 but included in platform workers in the gig economy. Also, 0:13:58.390 --> 0:14:01.790 software engineers and designers who seek not a permanent contract 0:14:01.790 --> 0:14:04.170 with google, but who want to be like Paula dash 0:14:04.179 --> 0:14:07.010 traveled the world, lived out of a suitcase, pop up 0:14:07.010 --> 0:14:11.760 their notebook, solve a problem. They to our platform workers, 0:14:11.940 --> 0:14:13.650 music teachers in Singapore, 0:14:13.740 --> 0:14:18.370 we're taking on gigs in different places for temporary for 0:14:18.370 --> 0:14:21.360 for short, for short time periods are also 0:14:21.940 --> 0:14:25.100 platform workers in the gig economy. The reason that this 0:14:25.100 --> 0:14:28.450 committee and the Ministry of Manpower is concerned about, 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:29.680 about this 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:31.050 is that 0:14:32.140 --> 0:14:33.760 the workers that were looking at 0:14:34.140 --> 0:14:39.360 uh, on the lower wage end of the income spectrum, 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.180 software designers, engineers make a lot of money, many of 0:14:43.180 --> 0:14:46.720 them doesn't bother the rest of society that they're traveling 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.490 or living out of a suitcase for the platform workers 0:14:49.490 --> 0:14:55.960 that we're looking at again, delivery writers, write hailing taxi drivers, 0:14:55.970 --> 0:14:57.760 delivery writers, 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:00.260 these workers 0:15:00.740 --> 0:15:01.960 loki 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:07.260 They're below the 20th percentile of the Singapore workforce and 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.490 we need to think about their long term well being by, 0:15:10.490 --> 0:15:11.750 we I mean, they 0:15:13.140 --> 0:15:18.130 uh, you know, concerned social observers and the platforms themselves, 0:15:18.130 --> 0:15:19.950 the companies themselves because 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:22.250 that these workers 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:24.760 do okay in the long run 0:15:25.140 --> 0:15:27.660 is important for the sustainability 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.220 of the platforms and ultimately for the well being of 0:15:32.220 --> 0:15:36.680 the Singapore consumer for everybody involved in this, this new 0:15:36.690 --> 0:15:41.870 ever expanding gig economy. So, to come around to how 0:15:41.870 --> 0:15:42.760 we began, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.690 I said that, you know, although it seems like this 0:15:45.690 --> 0:15:49.130 is something terribly new and exciting, it is terribly new 0:15:49.130 --> 0:15:49.950 and exciting 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.640 its roots, the fundamentals were thinking about it our longstanding, 0:15:54.650 --> 0:15:57.900 they go all the way back to when academics travel 0:15:57.900 --> 0:16:00.950 the world solving problems we can think about is like, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.360 it's like a Marie condo decluttering 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.990 of our production process. Instead of having like you and 0:16:07.990 --> 0:16:10.850 me books on our shelves, sitting in one place, working 0:16:10.850 --> 0:16:14.380 on problems, we declutter, we get rid of all of this, 0:16:14.380 --> 0:16:17.890 we focus on essentials and we become platform workers in 0:16:17.890 --> 0:16:22.150 the gig economy, you in a very lucrative financial service industry, 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.060 being the much lesser paid epidemics 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.250 and then all the way through to delivery writers, uh 0:16:29.250 --> 0:16:32.550 and and taxi drivers. So that's the, that's the set 0:16:32.550 --> 0:16:35.290 of issues. You're looking at the well being of all 0:16:35.290 --> 0:16:38.030 of us who are involved in this decluttering of the 0:16:38.030 --> 0:16:40.770 production process and the well being includes 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:45.140 retirement. Now, what happens now with platform workers, once you 0:16:45.150 --> 0:16:47.770 if you and I decided to leave our workplace 0:16:48.340 --> 0:16:51.570 and worked in a platform working kind of way, 0:16:51.940 --> 0:16:55.470 you and I will no longer be considered employees, 0:16:56.540 --> 0:17:00.160 we would be workers, but we don't employees now for economists, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.660 that distinction doesn't make any sense in our models, we 0:17:02.660 --> 0:17:06.190 use these terms interchangeably, but in the law in and 0:17:06.190 --> 0:17:10.460 in reality workers are one category and employees 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:12.170 attract 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.670 coverage and protection under the Employment Act 0:17:16.140 --> 0:17:19.220 variants of that in Singapore and elsewhere in the world. 0:17:19.220 --> 0:17:20.360 And the Employment Act 0:17:20.740 --> 0:17:21.670 looked at 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:27.149 retirement benefits, health care, housing, the protection bargaining power, the 0:17:27.150 --> 0:17:28.959 stress and fragility of work. 0:17:29.540 --> 0:17:32.350 The things that, as economists, we would say the long 0:17:32.350 --> 0:17:32.959 term 0:17:33.340 --> 0:17:36.960 president value considerations that everyone should be mindful of 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.480 and the worry is that in the gig economy platform 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.580 workers were daily on the run from, you know, from 0:17:45.580 --> 0:17:49.440 on on food delivery or goods delivery or going from 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:53.340 one taxi right to another. Haven't had the space to 0:17:53.340 --> 0:17:56.360 think about their long term, longer run welfare 0:17:56.540 --> 0:17:57.859 considerations. 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:02.580 And so this committee attempts to solve that problem of 0:18:02.580 --> 0:18:05.510 externality of where people haven't had time to think about 0:18:05.510 --> 0:18:08.800 these issues will have long run implications for the well 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:09.350 being 0:18:09.740 --> 0:18:11.170 of themselves, 0:18:11.740 --> 0:18:14.560 but also the platforms they work for and for the 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.960 customers that all the rest of society is 0:18:17.740 --> 0:18:21.060 indeed. Uh, the fiscal nerd in me wants to ask 0:18:21.060 --> 0:18:24.660 some follow up questions to that Professor Quad. So we 0:18:24.660 --> 0:18:27.600 are used to paying income taxes in the area we 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.850 reside because the activity we do there seems to be 0:18:29.850 --> 0:18:31.959 economically linked to that geography, 0:18:32.340 --> 0:18:35.060 but my son who is eight years old and takes 0:18:35.060 --> 0:18:38.359 quoting lessons from a service provider in India. 0:18:38.740 --> 0:18:41.340 Uh, this gentleman, we don't know where in India he lives, 0:18:41.340 --> 0:18:43.500 but he's a friend of my son. Now they meet 0:18:43.510 --> 0:18:46.510 each other on zoom twice a week. They share a 0:18:46.510 --> 0:18:51.740 screen and he learned scratch uh uh, through the scratch platform. 0:18:51.740 --> 0:18:52.770 He learns quoting from him. 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.020 The gentleman is providing a service for Singapore. We pay 0:18:56.020 --> 0:18:58.560 him but his earning is in India. 0:18:58.940 --> 0:19:01.190 So is it the responsibility of the government of India 0:19:01.190 --> 0:19:04.560 to charge income tax or as a service provider to 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.179 activity in Singapore. Should there be a way of Singapore 0:19:07.180 --> 0:19:09.900 and government to take a pie? A piece of that pie, 0:19:09.900 --> 0:19:12.260 which is I think impossible in today's day and age. 0:19:12.270 --> 0:19:14.860 But that's sort of challenges we have coming 0:19:15.740 --> 0:19:17.270 Absolutely. You know, 0:19:18.340 --> 0:19:22.690 when we were learning economics, we thought it was complicated 0:19:22.690 --> 0:19:23.260 enough 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.470 to remember the difference between gross national product and gross 0:19:28.470 --> 0:19:32.290 domestic product because you know, was it, was it earnings 0:19:32.290 --> 0:19:35.350 owned by citizens or was it learning by earnings and 0:19:35.350 --> 0:19:39.770 by residents? Where exactly does that transaction occur? That 0:19:40.540 --> 0:19:43.140 Help know that stood us in good stead for decades. 0:19:43.140 --> 0:19:46.760 This distinction between GNP or GDP within the last 10 years, 0:19:46.770 --> 0:19:52.659 the movement of transactions and services into cyberspace 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.970 where there is no physical location to speak of has 0:19:55.970 --> 0:19:58.850 compounded these complications many times over. 0:19:59.540 --> 0:20:02.220 And I think, you know, we, we all need to 0:20:02.220 --> 0:20:04.850 be fiscal nerds. We all need to think about where 0:20:04.859 --> 0:20:09.170 these tax considerations go because ultimately they are what drive 0:20:09.170 --> 0:20:12.530 the way in which our, our policy makers and our 0:20:12.530 --> 0:20:15.419 leaders look after our well being to take care of 0:20:15.420 --> 0:20:17.270 the externalities and the 0:20:17.340 --> 0:20:20.960 the public goods that all our societies will still need. 0:20:21.140 --> 0:20:24.619 It's going to be hugely important. And I hope that, 0:20:24.619 --> 0:20:28.160 you know, the work on platform workers, uh it's small, 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.390 is focused on just a small part of labels for now, 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.590 but we'll give us insights into these larger, more, more, 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.649 more consequential considerations as the global economy continues to evolve. Absolutely, 0:20:39.650 --> 0:20:41.060 I am talking with you 0:20:41.340 --> 0:20:44.490 and earlier this year, we saw after a very long time, 0:20:44.490 --> 0:20:47.479 one tangible progress in global taxation in the form of 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:48.060 the minimum 0:20:48.340 --> 0:20:51.230 corporate income tax and lots of countries which frankly, I 0:20:51.230 --> 0:20:53.560 thought it was unthinkable that would sign up did sign 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.740 up on this initiative. Does it give you a glimmer 0:20:55.740 --> 0:20:58.740 of hope that we could have more progress at the 0:20:58.740 --> 0:21:02.170 multilateral level of taxation of gig workers? 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:07.780 It is a glimmer of hope, because on many other 0:21:07.780 --> 0:21:12.520 multilateral considerations, we have been abysmal getting any kind of 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:19.109 cooperation collaboration, the global pandemic, global climate crisis, international terrorism, 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:20.460 uh you know, 0:21:20.940 --> 0:21:21.260 Yeah. 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:23.959 The way in which 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:29.270 very well off people are able to manipulate the international 0:21:29.270 --> 0:21:32.490