WEBVTT - Kopi Time E076 - Gojek's CL Lien on Running an e-Services Platform 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:01.850 Mhm 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.790 Hello, you're listening to Kobe time, a podcast series from 0:00:10.789 --> 0:00:13.720 markets and economies from DBS group research. I'm camera big 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.640 chief economist. Welcome to our 76 0:00:16.650 --> 0:00:17.250 episodes. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.299 My dear listeners and viewers. Today's guest is not like 0:00:21.310 --> 0:00:23.250 anyone we've had in covid time history 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.850 Cl Ean works for Go Jek as the Singapore general 0:00:26.850 --> 0:00:30.030 manager and also leads the driver operations across all countries. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.870 Go Jek is a southeast asian online platform providing access 0:00:33.870 --> 0:00:37.860 to services including transport, payments, food delivery and logistics. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.879 Before go Jek leon worked at Mckinsey where he was 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.890 based in china and spend time in Sierra Leone helping 0:00:43.890 --> 0:00:47.360 deal with Ebola. Prior to that, leon was a commando 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.350 officer in the Singapore Armed forces where he led a 0:00:50.350 --> 0:00:53.750 battalion and was in East timor as a U. N. Peacekeeper. 0:00:54.140 --> 0:00:57.390 An avid adventure. And this is where the differentiating part 0:00:57.390 --> 0:01:00.030 comes in leon is the first guest in Covid time 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.470 to have climbed the tallest peaks in the world including 0:01:02.470 --> 0:01:05.140 Mount Everest and K. Two. He has done things like 0:01:05.150 --> 0:01:09.170 run 250 kilometers ultramarathon through amazon jungles and the Gobi 0:01:09.170 --> 0:01:11.920 desert and he's done all sorts of expeditions in North 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.760 Pole and South Pole. Now that's 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:15.160 a renaissance man for you. 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:17.260 Cl ean, Welcome to Kobe time. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.060 Hey time, a real pleasure to be here and 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.319 Running podcasts, you know, are really not easy, 76 editions 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.310 is even more impressive. So real, real, real pleasure to 0:01:28.310 --> 0:01:28.760 be here. 0:01:28.770 --> 0:01:33.560 Yeah. Yeah. It's a little easier than running 250 km Leanne. 0:01:33.569 --> 0:01:38.190 Let's start by talking about your motivation. Um you have 0:01:38.190 --> 0:01:41.050 done a lot of physically demanding pursuits in your life 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.470 then of course, you know, you kind of settle down 0:01:43.470 --> 0:01:45.060 and did some desk stuff. 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.290 But how did your journey all the way to go, 0:01:47.290 --> 0:01:48.560 jek transpire. 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.720 Mm hmm. I guess I'll speak a little bit about 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.750 them and adventurous stuff. It's, it's, it's a good story. 0:01:57.140 --> 0:01:57.760 Um, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.170 probably, you know, runs through three stages when you're young. 0:02:02.180 --> 0:02:06.660 You are young, foolhardy, reckless. But you are about to explore. 0:02:06.660 --> 0:02:07.760 You don't know what you don't know. 0:02:08.139 --> 0:02:10.260 And that was my climbing journey. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.220 The first time you climb, it's really to see what, 0:02:13.220 --> 0:02:14.880 it's all, what, what is, what is this all about? 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.230 What is the experience? Somebody asked you and you go 0:02:17.230 --> 0:02:19.570 on a trip and I've got a good story about that. 0:02:19.580 --> 0:02:22.550 But the first, the first, the first trip, 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:24.460 uh, 0:02:24.940 --> 0:02:27.660 which kind of had some good learning lessons 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.790 when it became a second trip and a third trip. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.589 And after a while you want to become a little 0:02:32.590 --> 0:02:34.690 bit better. You want to have a little bit more mastery. 0:02:34.690 --> 0:02:36.859 You want to challenge yourself a little bit more. You 0:02:36.860 --> 0:02:38.150 want to see a little bit more of the 0:02:38.540 --> 0:02:41.740 uh, the bigger names that people have been talking about 0:02:41.750 --> 0:02:46.780 the story, uh, peaks and mountains and trips and places 0:02:46.780 --> 0:02:49.710 that have been written about and that probably is the 0:02:49.710 --> 0:02:50.560 second arc. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.350 And then as you sort of get into the 0:02:53.740 --> 0:02:57.260 later stages, you do it because you really enjoy doing it. Uh, I'm, 0:02:57.270 --> 0:02:59.440 you know, probably still somewhere between the second and the 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.450 third stage, I try to do a trip, 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.710 you know, every year. So that's on the, on the 0:03:04.710 --> 0:03:05.460 personal side 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.640 in terms of adventure, I'll tell a very short story though, 0:03:08.650 --> 0:03:09.350 which is 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.070 this foolhardy uh you don't know what, you don't know 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:18.049 and that's why there's a survivor sort of statistic that 0:03:18.050 --> 0:03:19.740 if you make it past the first few months of 0:03:19.740 --> 0:03:23.460 any product or company, then you're probably okay. The first 0:03:23.460 --> 0:03:26.169 time I went to climb a mountain I had with 0:03:26.169 --> 0:03:27.049 me on my 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:28.660 climb towards the summit, 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.290 I was wondering why everyone was moving much faster than 0:03:31.290 --> 0:03:33.870 I was. It was in California is a one thing 0:03:33.870 --> 0:03:36.530 called Shasta and I realized that, you know, they all 0:03:36.530 --> 0:03:39.780 have very light packs and I noted to myself that 0:03:39.780 --> 0:03:41.360 in my pack I had 0:03:41.740 --> 0:03:44.590 this really heavy book called the Freedom of the Hills 0:03:44.590 --> 0:03:46.950 and anyone who's familiar with it knows that it is 0:03:46.950 --> 0:03:49.410 the bible of climbing, which also means that it is 0:03:49.410 --> 0:03:51.760 a good, you know, several kilo tomes 0:03:52.140 --> 0:03:54.150 and I had, you know, things like my, 0:03:54.540 --> 0:03:55.950 my my heavy 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.250 torchlight talking about men like they're just huge metal contraption. 0:04:00.740 --> 0:04:03.390 So anyway, long story short is I ditched all my 0:04:03.390 --> 0:04:05.930 stuff and managed to make it into the peak at 0:04:05.930 --> 0:04:07.480 the cut off time, the very last person to be 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:08.260 allowed on that day. 0:04:08.740 --> 0:04:13.780 So from those rather inauspicious beginnings became this pretty much 0:04:13.780 --> 0:04:17.740 a lifelong love affair with climbing and the outdoors. So 0:04:17.750 --> 0:04:18.060 uh 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.020 if you survive the first few times and you kind 0:04:21.020 --> 0:04:23.140 of enjoy it, then hopefully you'll carry on doing it 0:04:23.150 --> 0:04:24.659 whatever endeavor it is 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.170 leon we'll we'll talk about the transition into, go check 0:04:29.170 --> 0:04:30.839 in a second, but I just want to ask one 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:34.660 specific question okay, going up the mountain is one thing, 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.130 But running across a desert for 206 km seems like 0:04:38.130 --> 0:04:40.560 a absolutely insane order of pain. 0:04:40.940 --> 0:04:42.860 Why would you subject yourself to that? 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:45.850 Ah 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:47.380 It's good 0:04:47.380 --> 0:04:50.560 scenery. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.420 There are a bunch of ultramarathons now and people can 0:04:54.420 --> 0:04:59.030 talk about uh the meditative aspects of it, the terrain. 0:04:59.029 --> 0:05:00.940 I mean it is beautiful. First, I'll start off with, 0:05:00.950 --> 0:05:03.900 it is really beautiful when you're running across the desert. 0:05:03.910 --> 0:05:06.350 And some are really, I've got some nice pictures on 0:05:06.350 --> 0:05:09.150 my blog adventures with Leanne dot com, 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:10.450 but 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.260 if you are out in the desert and the sand 0:05:13.260 --> 0:05:16.650 dunes like full, full on desserts, it's really amazing. And 0:05:16.650 --> 0:05:19.090 some of the desserts are massive, like the ones in Namibia. 0:05:19.100 --> 0:05:21.779 And then you can actually see for each each dune 0:05:21.790 --> 0:05:24.800 and in between each sand dune, these are parallel sand 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.390 dunes are so big, they can actually see it on 0:05:26.390 --> 0:05:28.800 a satellite map. We're talking about a kilometer or two. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.460 So you can kind of see one 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:31.450 kilometer away 0:05:31.740 --> 0:05:33.730 if you're in the sand dunes in the Gobi, you're 0:05:33.730 --> 0:05:36.700 literally seeing one hump away and then you're just doing 0:05:36.700 --> 0:05:38.740 that for hours and hours on end and you really 0:05:38.740 --> 0:05:40.560 can't tell what's beyond. Except that, you know, 0:05:40.940 --> 0:05:44.160 uh 50 m from from now, I've got another sand 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.080 dune to deal with. So even sand dunes are different. 0:05:47.089 --> 0:05:50.890 Even deserts are different. If you're in the Atacama desert, 0:05:50.900 --> 0:05:53.000 it is just a flat expense. And then you can 0:05:53.010 --> 0:05:55.339 kind of see people from really far away. So the 0:05:55.339 --> 0:05:58.219 first point is sand is different. Sand dunes are different. 0:05:58.220 --> 0:05:59.860 The geography is different 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.420 if you're in the amazon jungle, 40 plus degrees Celsius, 0:06:03.430 --> 0:06:04.950 90 over percent humidity. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.159 Kind of sounds like Singapore, but even even warmer. 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.760 It's a it's a different type of heat, a different 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:12.860 type of discomfort, 0:06:13.339 --> 0:06:15.160 but a different type of beauty as well. 0:06:16.339 --> 0:06:18.260 All right. The ability to appreciate 0:06:18.940 --> 0:06:23.030 the diversity of our amazing world. Alright, so the journey 0:06:23.029 --> 0:06:23.560 to go check, 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.960 journey to go Jack started off in the military 0:06:27.339 --> 0:06:29.260 and then subsequently 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:33.210 it became a, you know, left left after battalion command 0:06:33.210 --> 0:06:35.460 and became a management consultant. 0:06:35.940 --> 0:06:39.260 And I think, you know, these two experiences kind of. 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.099 I learned I learned a lot from them, but I 0:06:42.100 --> 0:06:43.539 always knew that I want to be back in an 0:06:43.550 --> 0:06:45.560 operating role in a 0:06:45.940 --> 0:06:47.760 in a commercial environment. 0:06:48.140 --> 0:06:50.930 And that pretty pretty much brought me to go check 0:06:50.940 --> 0:06:53.560 the trajectory has always been something china 0:06:54.540 --> 0:06:59.420 southeast asia along that vector. So, uh you know, go 0:06:59.420 --> 0:07:02.120 Jack spoke to me, I really, really, really liked what 0:07:02.130 --> 0:07:03.060 what we were doing. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.570 And I said, you know, it really makes sense. So 0:07:05.570 --> 0:07:06.650 that's how I joined. Go jek 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.710 so leeanne, given the physically demanding pursuits of your past 0:07:11.710 --> 0:07:12.150 life 0:07:12.150 --> 0:07:12.720 and I'm 0:07:12.730 --> 0:07:13.990 here that you know, you're not 0:07:13.990 --> 0:07:15.200 actually completely 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.420 devoid of doing that. You're still squeezing in a couple 0:07:17.420 --> 0:07:19.640 of trips or at least one trip a year. Um, 0:07:19.650 --> 0:07:22.429 so you talked a little bit about your appreciation for 0:07:22.430 --> 0:07:25.380 the geo diversity in the world or you know, the 0:07:25.380 --> 0:07:27.650 meditative aspect and so on. So 0:07:27.740 --> 0:07:31.880 what are the values and practices from your, you know, 0:07:31.890 --> 0:07:34.320 physical world that you're bringing to the world of technical 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:35.060 e commerce? 0:07:35.940 --> 0:07:36.860 Mm hmm. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.120 All of it is a piece. Whether I mean you 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.080 come to the table with everything that you are and 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:48.590 you can kind of pull out pieces. But I say 0:07:48.590 --> 0:07:50.970 you come to the table with everything that you are 0:07:50.970 --> 0:07:53.030 that has shaped you to be the person that you are. 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:54.460 I'll probably try to 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:55.890 pull out of fuel 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.350 as much as you can. Ascribe to single instances. 0:07:59.740 --> 0:08:02.580 The military is very much about leadership. But again, the 0:08:02.580 --> 0:08:05.590 leadership in the military is very different at different levels. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.360 If you're a young 0:08:08.140 --> 0:08:10.900 platoon commander in the special forces, it's about direct leadership. 0:08:10.900 --> 0:08:12.880 It is about looking your men and men and for 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.320 me it's just men by looking at men in the eyes, 0:08:15.330 --> 0:08:17.260 being the first to jump out of the plane, 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:19.900 leading the run from the front as you move up 0:08:19.900 --> 0:08:22.700 the ranks, then you start being a leader of leaders 0:08:22.710 --> 0:08:25.090 and even though you you can have direct line of 0:08:25.090 --> 0:08:28.470 sight of the people that you lied but you primarily 0:08:28.470 --> 0:08:31.370 interact with managing your commanders and making sure that you 0:08:31.370 --> 0:08:33.359 provide very good intent, very good direction 0:08:33.740 --> 0:08:35.870 and then when you move even up further then you 0:08:35.870 --> 0:08:37.910 don't even have line of sight with the with the 0:08:37.910 --> 0:08:40.600 people that you lied and it's very much around organizational 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.120 change and that I think transitions or segments very well 0:08:44.130 --> 0:08:45.560 into my time as a consultant, 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.020 I would say a large part of my projects involved 0:08:49.030 --> 0:08:51.460 a significant proportion of organizational change 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.160 and you know that 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:54.059 but 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.550 you know that the speed of ground execution is actually 0:08:57.550 --> 0:09:00.020 much slower. I can draw a power point and move 0:09:00.020 --> 0:09:01.550 an Akhtar around in, 0:09:02.340 --> 0:09:04.160 you know, in in an hour. 0:09:04.540 --> 0:09:06.559 But for that to actually flow through the system and 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:12.510 for the ramifications of the skills capabilities, raising the teams. 0:09:12.510 --> 0:09:16.700 I mean those time cycles and the time cycles of years, months, months, 0:09:16.700 --> 0:09:20.230 if not years. So let's say skills things I learned right, 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.720 what does leadership mean at the personal level, what does 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:24.360 leadership mean at 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:26.860 organizational level or leading through leaders? 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:28.059 So that's really from 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.359 both military and Mckinsey. 0:09:30.740 --> 0:09:33.660 Uh as a management consultant, I think the second one 0:09:33.660 --> 0:09:34.959 is learning 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.240 or just being very, very clear what your objective is 0:09:38.250 --> 0:09:42.980 asking the right questions and creating an environment where the people, 0:09:42.980 --> 0:09:46.960 the team and yourself can come up with the right answers. 0:09:46.970 --> 0:09:49.260 So probably just leave with these these two things or 0:09:49.260 --> 0:09:49.959 maybe a third one 0:09:50.340 --> 0:09:52.650 is and always being being very calm. 0:09:53.340 --> 0:09:54.360 Um 0:09:54.940 --> 0:09:58.260 frequently I'm asked you know your greater strength and when 0:09:58.260 --> 0:10:00.350 I was younger be or how smart I am, how 0:10:00.350 --> 0:10:02.720 strong I am, how fit I am, how aggressive I am, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.140 how much I get things done now. I just say 0:10:05.140 --> 0:10:09.890 that column is contagious when you come, you deescalate the 0:10:09.900 --> 0:10:13.960 emotions when you're calm, you de escalate the anxiety 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.059 and then everyone can come to a better solution. So 0:10:17.340 --> 0:10:17.960 right now 0:10:18.340 --> 0:10:21.160 com is probably something that I take from 0:10:21.540 --> 0:10:23.250 the different things that I've done in my life. 0:10:23.740 --> 0:10:26.570 That's great. Earlier today I was listening to somebody say 0:10:26.570 --> 0:10:28.160 that you know things are never really as good as 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.150 as they seem and there never really as bad as 0:10:30.150 --> 0:10:32.040 they seem and I think that's gonna erupt into your 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.860 point that don't react too much to what's happening right now. 0:10:35.860 --> 0:10:39.490 This too will pass whether it's good or bad. Um 0:10:39.500 --> 0:10:42.130 leon I'm gonna ask you the question that I normally 0:10:42.130 --> 0:10:44.750 start my podcast with these days, which is how did 0:10:44.750 --> 0:10:46.560 you and your company deal with the pandemic? 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:48.260 Good. 0:10:48.940 --> 0:10:50.860 Well uh 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.939 you know everyone talks about pandemic and pandemic scarring and 0:10:54.950 --> 0:10:58.100 hopefully I won't even say anything about what the future 0:10:58.100 --> 0:11:00.160 looks like. You're not not not using sit 0:11:00.940 --> 0:11:03.859 probably a friend of uh sort of macro observation and 0:11:03.860 --> 0:11:06.160 then some individual things that we did 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.150 micro observation was this early on. People talked about different 0:11:10.150 --> 0:11:12.400 kinds of recovery, L shaped, K shaped or you know, 0:11:12.410 --> 0:11:16.170 whatever particular alphabet that you have in mind. But it 0:11:16.170 --> 0:11:16.750 is true 0:11:17.140 --> 0:11:19.240 there are people who have your frontline staff is still 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:20.160 staying on the front line 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.929 and there are people, so there are people where you 0:11:23.929 --> 0:11:25.660 could do your work virtually, but it's still an hour 0:11:25.660 --> 0:11:26.059 of work 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.829 more or less. So the teachers, teachers during the period 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:31.150 spent an hour 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:33.970 on a zoom classroom rather than an hour in the classroom. 0:11:33.970 --> 0:11:35.190 And I know there's a lot more back end in 0:11:35.190 --> 0:11:38.010 front of work but roughly work is still in our 0:11:38.010 --> 0:11:39.660 except you're delivering it virtually 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.420 there were some people where the work evaporated these were 0:11:43.429 --> 0:11:46.690 you're in early periods whether it's F and B. Whether 0:11:46.690 --> 0:11:52.060 anything frontline where the demand disappeared such as marketing events. 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.819 And unfortunately many of these roles have to Reroll I'd 0:11:55.820 --> 0:12:00.059 say for people in a manageable capacity or managerial roles, 0:12:00.070 --> 0:12:02.630 the work is not proportional to volume. The work is 0:12:02.630 --> 0:12:06.750 proportional to change. So every 20% down 0:12:07.140 --> 0:12:11.929 In terms of volume of traffic volumes meant a significant 0:12:11.929 --> 0:12:15.569 business decision had to make and every 20% recovery was 0:12:15.570 --> 0:12:18.059 again a significant business decision that I had to make. 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.680 And so it's not as if, I mean obviously more 0:12:20.690 --> 0:12:23.250 more traffic better than less but it has changed. That 0:12:23.250 --> 0:12:23.750 actually 0:12:24.140 --> 0:12:26.260 causes a lot of the work. So 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.700 um, I'd say not so much for go jek, but 0:12:28.700 --> 0:12:29.850 for myself personally, I felt 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:34.750 the rapidly changing conditions just meant that we collectively had 0:12:34.750 --> 0:12:36.160 to just 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:37.660 cheap on top of it, 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:40.820 what does it mean for go jek as a business as, 0:12:40.820 --> 0:12:42.550 you know what I mean, if you look at my background, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.360 this is a driver partner 0:12:46.740 --> 0:12:49.840 and we are ultimately here to were ultimately here to 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.010 serve the customers to consumers through the on demand services 0:12:54.020 --> 0:12:56.410 and within the broader group as e commerce and finance 0:12:56.410 --> 0:12:56.959 as well. But 0:12:57.340 --> 0:13:00.559 bingo jacket is about delivering food, delivering people, moving the 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:01.360 parcels around 0:13:01.940 --> 0:13:04.250 um, and that is done by the driver partners, it 0:13:04.250 --> 0:13:07.040 is fulfilled by the driver partners and the driver partners 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:11.810 are the ones who found it very difficult to uh, make, 0:13:11.809 --> 0:13:14.900 make an earnings during that period. So whether it is 0:13:14.910 --> 0:13:18.950 supplementary supplementary, um, you know, 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:21.420 money that we offered to them, whether it was taking 0:13:21.420 --> 0:13:25.099 away the commission's that go check, charged or even more 0:13:25.100 --> 0:13:28.970 recently we added on a fuel surcharge so that they 0:13:28.970 --> 0:13:31.980 could help defray the cost of rising fuel, which is uh, 0:13:31.990 --> 0:13:35.590 one of the largest operating expenses. We've done everything that 0:13:35.590 --> 0:13:38.490 we could to support the driver partners so that they 0:13:38.490 --> 0:13:40.160 could say sustainable 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.840 because ultimately they are the bedrock on which our business 0:13:42.990 --> 0:13:44.650 is operates on. 0:13:46.340 --> 0:13:50.060 So let's talk about this driver partner relationship a little bit, 0:13:50.070 --> 0:13:51.510 I have, you know 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:52.449 seen 0:13:52.460 --> 0:13:57.300 stories and case studies around Uber and other large, you know, 0:13:57.309 --> 0:14:00.590 driving partnership platforms and 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:01.260 each 0:14:01.260 --> 0:14:03.820 founder seems to have, you know, slightly different take on 0:14:03.820 --> 0:14:06.650 this relationship between the company and the driver partners 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:12.560 give us a sense of the responsibility and the, 0:14:12.940 --> 0:14:13.520 I don't know the, 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.760 the burden sharing that that transpires when you have a 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:18.849 model like this. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:20.960 Mm hmm. 0:14:22.530 --> 0:14:26.640 Project started in Indonesia. The name itself is a motorcycle 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:27.160 taxi 0:14:27.940 --> 0:14:29.460 and there was a fragmented 0:14:29.940 --> 0:14:34.290 service that at slightly lower levels of reliability, people were 0:14:34.290 --> 0:14:35.960 uncertain about what they could get 0:14:36.340 --> 0:14:38.840 and uh, and so that's how we start to go 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.350 check at the, at the point in time and 0:14:42.140 --> 0:14:45.600 The social cause and the social mission has been very 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.150 apparent from, from day one. 0:14:47.540 --> 0:14:51.420 Uh, there are many stories of the merchants that have 0:14:51.420 --> 0:14:55.370 been enabled on go check uh, even through the pandemic 0:14:55.380 --> 0:14:58.550 to be able to provide a livelihood for their families. 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.060 Similar similarly for the driver partners 0:15:01.540 --> 0:15:06.310 who have, I think, I think the statistic is that 0:15:06.310 --> 0:15:11.190 accounts for 12% of Indonesia's GDP now transacted through the 0:15:11.190 --> 0:15:14.640 on demand services that go check offers. I may be 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.240 wrong the number, but I think it's roughly in that ballpark. 0:15:17.250 --> 0:15:19.660 So it is a massive, 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.700 it is important. It's massively important to the broader economy 0:15:23.710 --> 0:15:27.320 to the consumers that is unlocked, but even more so 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.300 for the merchants and the driver partners that are on 0:15:30.300 --> 0:15:33.830 the platform and whether it's in Vietnam or even in Singapore, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.660 the social costs, the social impact 0:15:36.140 --> 0:15:38.990 uh, and the social impact because of the commercial impact. 0:15:38.990 --> 0:15:40.860 If you don't scale and you don't have a big 0:15:40.860 --> 0:15:41.860 commercial impact, then 0:15:42.340 --> 0:15:44.700 you know, the social impact also may not be quite 0:15:44.700 --> 0:15:47.270 as large. So I think because of the commercial impact, 0:15:47.270 --> 0:15:50.160 we never forget the social aspect to it as well. 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.730 I'll give you a very, very specific scenario. This happened 0:15:54.730 --> 0:15:57.100 to me yesterday actually I was talking to a driver 0:15:57.100 --> 0:15:59.320 and he said that he used to work for a 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:05.450 different right hailing platform and the right that he had 0:16:05.460 --> 0:16:08.270 somebody vomited in the car and he had a big 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.460 cleaning bill and the right healing 0:16:10.540 --> 0:16:13.460 Company basically told him that that was his problem other 0:16:13.460 --> 0:16:15.770 than like a $30, you know, flat fee they give 0:16:15.770 --> 0:16:19.380 for cleaning, whereas his liability was much larger. So 0:16:19.380 --> 0:16:20.580 that incident 0:16:20.580 --> 0:16:23.290 alone where the company may have had a set of practice, 0:16:23.290 --> 0:16:26.090 which from the company's perspective was good practice. But from 0:16:26.090 --> 0:16:28.240 this driver who had experienced a tail risk if you 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.310 will was that, you know, he was sort of, you know, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.890 let down by the company and he basically stopped working 0:16:34.890 --> 0:16:36.740 for that because you know, there are other companies to 0:16:36.740 --> 0:16:38.850 work for and therefore he just moved on from that platform. 0:16:38.850 --> 0:16:41.550 But that was all it took that one incident. Um, 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.740 so do you find situations like this often that this 0:16:44.740 --> 0:16:49.800 is a very sensitive volatile group of driver partners and 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:51.760 you have to be extremely careful in dealing with them? 0:16:53.540 --> 0:16:56.810 I would say it's not that the request unreasonable, but 0:16:56.820 --> 0:16:58.270 it is uh, 0:16:59.740 --> 0:17:01.780 it is the value of having competition. There's the value 0:17:01.780 --> 0:17:05.950 of having alternatives and the value of having choices. And 0:17:06.540 --> 0:17:09.609 many people talk about ride hailing being a commodity product, 0:17:09.619 --> 0:17:11.870 which in a sense it might be, but there is 0:17:11.869 --> 0:17:14.520 great value to the market and to the market, meaning 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.800 both to the customers as well. As the driver said, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:17.550 there is choice. 0:17:17.940 --> 0:17:20.060 For instance, you have a monopoly 0:17:20.540 --> 0:17:21.460 and I'm not, I'm not 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.490 talking about any specific company, but in all examples, you 0:17:26.490 --> 0:17:29.750 see when you have a monopoly, then you just become 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.280 less sensitive to market signals. You become less sensitive to 0:17:33.290 --> 0:17:37.470 competition signals. You try a little bit less hard if 0:17:37.470 --> 0:17:40.550 you will. And that's true of any monopoly. So, uh, 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.770 we, and, and you know, we operate in the open 0:17:42.770 --> 0:17:44.170 and contestant marketplace 0:17:44.340 --> 0:17:46.860 and that is one of the values of just having 0:17:46.859 --> 0:17:48.859 competitors keep you on your toes 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.560 as a general principle. 0:17:50.940 --> 0:17:53.760 And then more specifically, we always try our best to 0:17:54.140 --> 0:17:56.810 um, take care of forever partners. We can't manage all 0:17:56.810 --> 0:18:00.350 tail and risk. Uh, I mean you're an economist. So, uh, 0:18:01.340 --> 0:18:02.170 there's a, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.619 on the other hand, on the other hand, there may 0:18:04.619 --> 0:18:08.580 be real intentions. Uh, we try to support as best 0:18:08.580 --> 0:18:11.060 as we can and we definitely do listen to 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.050 the concerns of every single driver partner. 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:15.980 The answer may not be yes, but at least I 0:18:15.980 --> 0:18:18.540 guarantee that you'll, you'll have a, you have a year 0:18:18.540 --> 0:18:21.580