1 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:10,350 Speaker 1: Welcome to Covid Time, a podcast series on markets and 2 00:00:10,350 --> 00:00:13,870 Speaker 1: economies from DBS group research. I'm tom Lubeck, chief economist 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,209 Speaker 1: welcoming you to our 79th episode, I'm very pleased to 4 00:00:17,210 --> 00:00:20,230 Speaker 1: have with us Miss Grace fu. Singapore's Minister for Sustainability 5 00:00:20,230 --> 00:00:23,370 Speaker 1: and the Environment. Prior to her current appointment, MS fu 6 00:00:23,370 --> 00:00:25,860 Speaker 1: was the Minister of Culture, Community and Youth. 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: She has also held various positions at the Prime Minister's Office, 8 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:34,020 Speaker 1: Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of National Development. MS 9 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: fu began her career with the Overseas Union Bank and 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: was the chief executive officer of P. S. A. Southeast 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,060 Speaker 1: Asia and Japan before joining the public sector 12 00:00:42,740 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: Minister graceful. An honor to have you on Covid time. 13 00:00:45,250 --> 00:00:45,710 Speaker 1: Thank you 14 00:00:45,710 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: so much for having me. 15 00:00:46,770 --> 00:00:49,270 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure I'd like to begin with the here 16 00:00:49,270 --> 00:00:53,370 Speaker 1: and now. Energy security, soaring energy prices all over the world. 17 00:00:53,370 --> 00:00:53,790 Speaker 1: This is the 18 00:00:53,790 --> 00:00:55,070 Speaker 2: topic in town, isn't it? 19 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,790 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So give us a sense of, you know, a 20 00:00:57,790 --> 00:01:00,230 Speaker 1: place like Singapore, we don't have natural resources but we 21 00:01:00,230 --> 00:01:02,660 Speaker 1: have to deal with this global shock. How do we 22 00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:03,610 Speaker 1: deal with this? 23 00:01:03,620 --> 00:01:06,430 Speaker 2: That's our camera because being a very small country with 24 00:01:06,430 --> 00:01:07,660 Speaker 2: no natural resources, 25 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:11,350 Speaker 2: we will have to deal with, you know, the security 26 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: of energy of water or food. 27 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: We import most of not all of our energy sources 28 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,509 Speaker 2: with some renewable solar energy in Singapore, but other than 29 00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:24,210 Speaker 2: that we have been in a way managing this issue 30 00:01:24,209 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: about energy security for for a long, long, long, long time. 31 00:01:27,740 --> 00:01:31,470 Speaker 2: And I think it's it's sent us a shock. The 32 00:01:31,470 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 2: shock is not just for Singapore, but I think it's 33 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:34,660 Speaker 2: a very global shock. 34 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,950 Speaker 2: Um it has to do with a geopolitical situation, but 35 00:01:38,950 --> 00:01:41,660 Speaker 2: unfortunately because we have been so connected 36 00:01:42,140 --> 00:01:44,950 Speaker 2: the world has been. And so if you want to 37 00:01:44,950 --> 00:01:49,740 Speaker 2: basically extract out an important supplier, I think that's where 38 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:51,260 Speaker 2: the dislocation is happening 39 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: in that one move of invading Ukraine. I think Russia 40 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: basically has slapped a carbon tax 41 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,430 Speaker 2: on everyone because fossil oil and gas has actually just 42 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:07,050 Speaker 2: gone up. It also sharpened our 43 00:02:07,540 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: attention really on this issue issue about energy security. 44 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,740 Speaker 2: Ah and particularly I think in europe where they are 45 00:02:16,740 --> 00:02:19,860 Speaker 2: getting gas oil on pipelines, 46 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,750 Speaker 2: how do you deal with a secure supply 47 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,210 Speaker 2: protecting the countries from political decisions? I think it's now 48 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: top and center of minds of political leaders 49 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,269 Speaker 2: and I think this will be helpful to what's renewable 50 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,950 Speaker 2: because if you are to invest 51 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,450 Speaker 2: in your own energy sources, what would that be 52 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: Bear in mind that there's going to be issue of 53 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: decarbonization over the next 30 years, there's a net zero 54 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: commitment in the next three decades. What kind of energy 55 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,970 Speaker 2: sources which will invest in? And I think the long run, 56 00:02:57,980 --> 00:03:00,110 Speaker 2: I think it's going to do renewable, a lot of 57 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:00,460 Speaker 2: good 58 00:03:01,139 --> 00:03:04,570 Speaker 2: renewable actually, it's the most secure. I think from a 59 00:03:04,570 --> 00:03:06,450 Speaker 2: country perspective because 60 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: um for most countries, um sun is available free of 61 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,250 Speaker 2: charge and it's also most democratic because whether you're a 62 00:03:15,250 --> 00:03:19,090 Speaker 2: rich country or poor country, you get the same sources of. 63 00:03:19,710 --> 00:03:23,380 Speaker 2: So I think it is a good opportunity for countries 64 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: to really look at increasing the mix of their renewable. 65 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:30,030 Speaker 2: Um, and indeed, I think that's what's going to happen. 66 00:03:30,030 --> 00:03:30,850 Speaker 2: That's my prediction. 67 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: But we have sun, but we don't have land, 68 00:03:34,169 --> 00:03:35,690 Speaker 2: we don't have land. So we are one of the 69 00:03:35,690 --> 00:03:38,850 Speaker 2: few maybe city states or small countries that actually do 70 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: not have the land. And for us, there's always be 71 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,140 Speaker 2: a trade off with atlantic because land is scarce. Unlike 72 00:03:45,140 --> 00:03:48,550 Speaker 2: some other countries, land is scarce and therefore we will 73 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: always have to put land as a constraint. 74 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,660 Speaker 2: So whether it is land for 75 00:03:52,940 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: industry, industrial use land for manufacturing, land for defense, land 76 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,350 Speaker 2: for housing, recreation and now solar, 77 00:04:03,740 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: it will always have to be measured against opportunity costs 78 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: and so on. So we have to really work much 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:11,150 Speaker 2: harder 80 00:04:11,540 --> 00:04:14,150 Speaker 2: to look at alternative sources of energy 81 00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: as we move to more renewable. 82 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: Like all countries have to deal with the complexities that 83 00:04:20,410 --> 00:04:21,550 Speaker 2: come with it 84 00:04:21,940 --> 00:04:25,029 Speaker 2: because you're gonna have multiple sources, you're going to have 85 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: intermittent see from weather and climate, 86 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:31,820 Speaker 2: you are going to deal with probably many, many different 87 00:04:31,820 --> 00:04:36,660 Speaker 2: sources because each of the solar is a power generation 88 00:04:36,670 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: and therefore how does the grid going to take in 89 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,490 Speaker 2: multiple sources that could feed and draw at the same time. 90 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: So the grid has to go really smart and we 91 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,870 Speaker 2: have to really look at how can we manage security 92 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:51,060 Speaker 2: at the same time because 93 00:04:51,339 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: there's still climatic conditions for renewables such as solar with 94 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,750 Speaker 2: and we have to look at some stable source that 95 00:04:57,750 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: can be that can buffer us when the climatic conditions 96 00:05:01,850 --> 00:05:02,950 Speaker 2: are not favorable. 97 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,450 Speaker 2: And that really complicates our energy decision. 98 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,890 Speaker 2: We also like to look at other sources such as 99 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:16,660 Speaker 2: importing renewable from the region from a regional grid. 100 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:20,260 Speaker 2: Increasingly, we're looking very interested 101 00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:22,460 Speaker 2: in hydrogen 102 00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:27,409 Speaker 2: because that's receiving a lot of attention from many countries, 103 00:05:27,410 --> 00:05:30,090 Speaker 2: huge amount of investments in R and D have gone 104 00:05:30,089 --> 00:05:30,650 Speaker 2: into it. 105 00:05:31,140 --> 00:05:34,260 Speaker 2: We have put some money into that. We've also started 106 00:05:34,270 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: to participate in trials and so on in the transportation, 107 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:39,660 Speaker 2: the logistic 108 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,220 Speaker 2: chain of hydrogen. We hope that well we will make 109 00:05:44,220 --> 00:05:47,890 Speaker 2: some headway and um it's going to be expensive in 110 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:50,750 Speaker 2: the beginning, like most new technology 111 00:05:51,140 --> 00:05:52,250 Speaker 2: but with scale, 112 00:05:52,740 --> 00:05:57,630 Speaker 2: we will iron out the cost of transportation, will iron 113 00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:00,390 Speaker 2: out the cost of production, We will lower the cost 114 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: of production, unit cost of production if we increase the 115 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,330 Speaker 2: scale and hopefully we'll bring it down to a level 116 00:06:05,330 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: where it's, you know, commercially affordable and competitive. 117 00:06:09,339 --> 00:06:13,340 Speaker 1: Do you foresee Singapore being sort of a price taker 118 00:06:13,339 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: in terms of technological developments or would you like Singapore 119 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,700 Speaker 1: to be an investor in developing frontier technology with respect 120 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: to renewables? 121 00:06:20,450 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: Actually both 122 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: because we are investors, we are investing in R and 123 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,310 Speaker 2: D and we have invested maybe in the last decade 124 00:06:29,310 --> 00:06:33,010 Speaker 2: or so. But we're going to increase our investments in 125 00:06:33,020 --> 00:06:36,150 Speaker 2: urban solutions and services. 126 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: We have also put in some money on energy including 127 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,700 Speaker 2: nuclear energy for example. But as a small country with 128 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:45,250 Speaker 2: a small demand, 129 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:48,849 Speaker 2: we will never be able to drive the unit costs. 130 00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 2: So we need the unit cost of big market that 131 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,060 Speaker 2: can offer us we piggyback 132 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:59,849 Speaker 2: so that we can benefit from a larger market and 133 00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:01,450 Speaker 2: also lower unit costs with that. 134 00:07:01,940 --> 00:07:04,930 Speaker 2: But we like to know we like to be at 135 00:07:04,940 --> 00:07:08,380 Speaker 2: the frontier so that we can be early in the 136 00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: adoption 137 00:07:09,540 --> 00:07:14,060 Speaker 2: because we believe that this transition in energy 138 00:07:14,540 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: is offering us an opportunity of a new growth area 139 00:07:18,530 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: and we like to participate fully in it. 140 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,190 Speaker 1: You talked about the intermittent sea of renewable energy and 141 00:07:24,190 --> 00:07:28,260 Speaker 1: one bottle like there is storage. Are you optimistic that 142 00:07:28,270 --> 00:07:30,780 Speaker 1: technology is evolving fast enough that we can get a 143 00:07:30,790 --> 00:07:32,060 Speaker 1: solution around storage. 144 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: I must say that I have not been intimately involved 145 00:07:37,650 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: in the R. And D. Of battery but I understand 146 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: that the investment that's going in it into this area 147 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: is actually multiplying correct. 148 00:07:48,940 --> 00:07:53,500 Speaker 2: And when there's money there's resources in there, I think 149 00:07:53,500 --> 00:07:57,660 Speaker 2: the human creativity will follow and will attract the best brains. 150 00:07:57,660 --> 00:07:59,460 Speaker 2: And I think I'm hopeful in that sense. 151 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,090 Speaker 1: Yes, I think we need some human ingenuity is to 152 00:08:03,090 --> 00:08:06,330 Speaker 1: solve this issue by all means. Um, mr if I 153 00:08:06,330 --> 00:08:09,730 Speaker 1: may talk about long term strategy. So we've been reading 154 00:08:09,730 --> 00:08:12,010 Speaker 1: about the Singapore green plan for 2030 and so on. 155 00:08:12,010 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: If you could elaborate on that that 156 00:08:14,540 --> 00:08:17,740 Speaker 1: in addition to just the energy and security issue, what 157 00:08:17,740 --> 00:08:18,950 Speaker 1: is the green plan? And where do we go 158 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,930 Speaker 2: Actually, The green plan came about when we put a 159 00:08:21,930 --> 00:08:23,150 Speaker 2: few things together, 160 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:30,890 Speaker 2: we have submitted our national nationally determined contributions to U. N. C. 161 00:08:30,890 --> 00:08:35,060 Speaker 2: About our carbon abatement and emission reduction plan. 162 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,790 Speaker 2: Ah and we have been really thinking about this issue 163 00:08:38,790 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: about decarbonization for a long while, 164 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:44,650 Speaker 2: maybe a few years back, 165 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,250 Speaker 2: the movement momentum wasn't felt and we were not quite 166 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:52,350 Speaker 2: sure whether we had the technologies and the ability to 167 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: do so, 168 00:08:53,540 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: but I think the last few years there's been tremendous 169 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:57,650 Speaker 2: pickup in the momentum 170 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,790 Speaker 2: and we have seen how the financial sector, for example, 171 00:09:00,790 --> 00:09:02,150 Speaker 2: is also coming on board. 172 00:09:02,540 --> 00:09:06,090 Speaker 2: Plus the fact that we have reached very significant milestone 173 00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:09,050 Speaker 2: at cop 26 with carbon credits for example, 174 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:12,660 Speaker 2: this has given us a lot of optimism and hope 175 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: ah and with the momentum, as I mentioned early, we 176 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: think that this is also an area of growth for us. 177 00:09:19,929 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: So with sort of a carbon abatement plan and also 178 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: our own needs for sustainable development. We've put together the 179 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,750 Speaker 2: Singapore Green plan. It is more than just climate action. 180 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:34,459 Speaker 2: It's also about how do we develop 181 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,650 Speaker 2: our economy, how do we develop our society on a 182 00:09:39,650 --> 00:09:43,339 Speaker 2: sustainable manner? So issues such as how do we deal 183 00:09:43,340 --> 00:09:43,750 Speaker 2: with 184 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:48,910 Speaker 2: waste treatment, how do we reduce our way so that 185 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,459 Speaker 2: we will not run out of landfill sites, 186 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: these are all constraints that we have to live with. 187 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,329 Speaker 2: Ah and we want to come get all the ministries 188 00:09:59,330 --> 00:10:02,089 Speaker 2: that involved in this on some in some way that 189 00:10:02,090 --> 00:10:06,219 Speaker 2: has a hand in producing carbon and has a policy 190 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: liver on carbon emission on sustainable development to bring their 191 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:12,060 Speaker 2: plans together. 192 00:10:12,540 --> 00:10:15,660 Speaker 2: The process itself is actually 193 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 2: the most significant part of it. The process of coming 194 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:20,660 Speaker 2: together with that plan 195 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: because there are trade offs. Even if you look at 196 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,540 Speaker 2: the plan, when we talked about long term security on 197 00:10:26,540 --> 00:10:30,860 Speaker 2: food supply, we are bringing in carbon emissions of food 198 00:10:30,860 --> 00:10:34,150 Speaker 2: supply to Singapore. When if we just import 199 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,470 Speaker 2: the carbon is incurred outside Singapore. So when we do that, 200 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,950 Speaker 2: there are actually new sources where carbon emission is expected. 201 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,470 Speaker 2: So these are all trade offs that we need to 202 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: make 203 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:52,290 Speaker 2: within the within the government between the ministries to agree 204 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:55,050 Speaker 2: that this is the common direction that we will take 205 00:10:55,059 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: another example would be 206 00:10:57,540 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 2: um 207 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,410 Speaker 2: on mobility, electric vehicles where we're going to move to E. V. S, 208 00:11:03,420 --> 00:11:05,250 Speaker 2: we need infrastructure, 209 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,550 Speaker 2: we're going to increase the demand on the grid. 210 00:11:09,140 --> 00:11:10,060 Speaker 2: So from 211 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:15,060 Speaker 2: having petrol stations and terminals, we are now 212 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:19,330 Speaker 2: increasing our load on the grid and with charging stations, 213 00:11:19,340 --> 00:11:24,460 Speaker 2: so that's where, you know, between E. M A, between L. T. A. 214 00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 2: Between Ministry of Transport and Trade and Industry, we need 215 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,250 Speaker 2: to harmonize our plan and the green plan actually has 216 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: that purpose and serves that purpose. 217 00:11:35,540 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: So when we speak 218 00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:40,070 Speaker 2: whether to the people, whether to the companies or whether 219 00:11:40,070 --> 00:11:44,050 Speaker 2: to external parties, we speak with one direction. 220 00:11:44,540 --> 00:11:45,059 Speaker 2: And 221 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,650 Speaker 2: I'm reiterating this because very often we find this piece 222 00:11:50,650 --> 00:11:54,210 Speaker 2: to be missing in other countries because you will have 223 00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:57,260 Speaker 2: different ministries sort of looking at their own sort of 224 00:11:57,270 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: carbon admission and that coordination sometimes is what the businesses 225 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:03,459 Speaker 2: are asking. 226 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,430 Speaker 2: Where do we find a coordinated plan? And I think 227 00:12:06,429 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: Singapore has that 228 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,850 Speaker 2: it's a coordinated direction. 229 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,610 Speaker 2: We don't have all the answers. We don't have all 230 00:12:14,610 --> 00:12:16,859 Speaker 2: the targets. It's an evolving plan 231 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,569 Speaker 2: as we have new technology that comes on board that 232 00:12:20,570 --> 00:12:23,550 Speaker 2: looks viable. We will update it, we will increase the 233 00:12:23,550 --> 00:12:26,990 Speaker 2: pace of change and it will also guide us on 234 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,660 Speaker 2: our R and D um 235 00:12:29,140 --> 00:12:29,860 Speaker 2: pathways. 236 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:35,350 Speaker 2: So very interestingly, after the green plant 2030 was announced, 237 00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:39,380 Speaker 2: you'll find organizations sort of taking the green plan and 238 00:12:39,390 --> 00:12:41,349 Speaker 2: implementing that 239 00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:47,230 Speaker 2: In the it's in its own organizational plan. Universities, for example, N. 240 00:12:47,230 --> 00:12:49,060 Speaker 2: Us has a 2030 plan. 241 00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:53,290 Speaker 2: So in order for the country to be 2030 reaching 242 00:12:53,290 --> 00:12:58,830 Speaker 2: certain targets, what would be the pathway of an organization 243 00:12:58,830 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: like us and they want to go ahead of the 244 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:08,459 Speaker 2: National Green Plan. So that has its purpose of mobilizing 245 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:14,110 Speaker 2: the resources and also the the attention and the imagination 246 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:20,020 Speaker 2: of all stakeholders in Singapore, whether you're in academia, whether 247 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:22,820 Speaker 2: you're in research, whether you're a company to look at 248 00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: how you can play a part and how you can 249 00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: take advantage 250 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,300 Speaker 2: of the opportunities that's going to come your way with 251 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:31,260 Speaker 2: Singapore green Plan. 252 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: Right. 253 00:13:32,429 --> 00:13:35,870 Speaker 1: When you talk about coordination among all the government bodies, 254 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,460 Speaker 1: how does it work operationally and by that, I mean, 255 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,059 Speaker 1: do the annual budget processes, do they involve taking into 256 00:13:43,059 --> 00:13:46,180 Speaker 1: account the Green plan? Or is there like an interdepartmental 257 00:13:46,179 --> 00:13:49,150 Speaker 1: or interministerial task force that is looking at the Green 258 00:13:49,150 --> 00:13:50,020 Speaker 1: Plan and updating it? 259 00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:53,059 Speaker 2: Yes, we do have an interministerial committee. 260 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,449 Speaker 2: It's called the National Climate Change Secretariat. 261 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,819 Speaker 2: This is chat by S. M. T. 262 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,900 Speaker 2: Bring together all the relevant ministries. We sort out decisions 263 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: that sort of stretches across ministry 264 00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:16,059 Speaker 2: in a way that's where the hardest negotiation sometimes happen. 265 00:14:16,070 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: But once we decide, and once we negotiated on targets 266 00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:25,310 Speaker 2: on carbon tax trajectory, for example, it fits into the 267 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:26,950 Speaker 2: budget process. So 268 00:14:27,540 --> 00:14:32,010 Speaker 2: ministries that have those targets in mind and need resources 269 00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:35,450 Speaker 2: to reach the targets will then go through the budget 270 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:37,650 Speaker 2: exercise with M. O. F. 271 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,770 Speaker 2: That's clarity because M O. F is involved and aware 272 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: about the decision taken at N. C. S. S and 273 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: therefore I think it sort of reduces 274 00:14:47,340 --> 00:14:52,030 Speaker 2: the need for further coordination, further discussion at. So it's 275 00:14:52,030 --> 00:14:55,620 Speaker 2: a it's a clarity that has been helpful to enable 276 00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:58,460 Speaker 2: ministries to work towards their targets. 277 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,710 Speaker 1: I'd like to get into something that you touched earlier 278 00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:02,970 Speaker 1: and something that is very close to us, our hearts 279 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:05,609 Speaker 1: here at D. B. S, which is climate finance, you 280 00:15:05,610 --> 00:15:08,940 Speaker 1: mentioned that climate finance will play an important role in 281 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:13,220 Speaker 1: the decarbonization strategy and so on. You. Like what's happening 282 00:15:13,220 --> 00:15:17,030 Speaker 1: in the Singapore financial sector on carbon trading and other 283 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,500 Speaker 1: progresses that's taking place. 284 00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:21,070 Speaker 2: I think this is an area that is actually working 285 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: at full speed 286 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,350 Speaker 2: and the pace of change is actually very fast. 287 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:31,650 Speaker 2: Just give you an example on financial reporting taxonomy. 288 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,020 Speaker 2: Um, some things that you can take sometimes, like, you know, 289 00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:40,620 Speaker 2: a decade to get standardized harmonized standards going on across 290 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:44,090 Speaker 2: the world is now taking probably in the, in a 291 00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:47,970 Speaker 2: period in a span of months, if not a year 292 00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:50,660 Speaker 2: or two. So the pace at which 293 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: different regulators, different standard setters are coming together and agreeing on, 294 00:15:57,490 --> 00:16:02,460 Speaker 2: you know, working together towards a harmonized standardized taxonomy definition 295 00:16:02,460 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: and reporting requirements is actually at breakneck speed, I would say. Um, 296 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: there's also, I think a lot of interests 297 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,850 Speaker 2: with the development of green bonds and green loans segment, 298 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,540 Speaker 2: you can see that there's new BTS now being launched, 299 00:16:21,550 --> 00:16:25,060 Speaker 2: really trying to capture the interest of investors 300 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 2: in the area of E. S. G investments. So whether 301 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,300 Speaker 2: it is at the regulatory level with disclosure requirements, we 302 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:40,750 Speaker 2: are already looking at compulsory, you know, non compulsory disclosure 303 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:46,540 Speaker 2: at listed companies, starting with hard to abate sectors. Working 304 00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:47,660 Speaker 2: down to 305 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,970 Speaker 2: having, you know, a database of E. S. G. Data 306 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: that M. A. S and C. D. P. Have come 307 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,570 Speaker 2: together and basically allowing investors 308 00:17:00,940 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: much greater ease 309 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,850 Speaker 2: in extracting data. That is first of all harmonized 310 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,990 Speaker 2: with the same standards and also allowing investors to then 311 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:14,369 Speaker 2: make better decisions and more discerning with which are the 312 00:17:14,369 --> 00:17:17,850 Speaker 2: ones that is, you know, ahead on the E. S. G. Agenda. 313 00:17:17,859 --> 00:17:20,340 Speaker 2: So these are all development that I think are very 314 00:17:20,350 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: important to develop a market that is credible, 315 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: that is trusted 316 00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:29,450 Speaker 2: and that has high standard. 317 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,060 Speaker 2: We must get on a very strong and robust set 318 00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: footing because we have seen how in the past, 319 00:17:37,340 --> 00:17:38,270 Speaker 2: when 320 00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: poor standards or 321 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,260 Speaker 2: fragmented standards have allowed companies to pick and choose 322 00:17:46,940 --> 00:17:48,460 Speaker 2: what they report. 323 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: And as a result, I think in some ways when 324 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,929 Speaker 2: we're one or two bad cases, perfect, actually diminish the 325 00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:58,670 Speaker 2: credibility and the trust 326 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:02,950 Speaker 2: of investors. So we must get the basics right. And 327 00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:04,770 Speaker 2: I think we are moving very quickly 328 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,530 Speaker 2: at a very good pace and at high standards. So 329 00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:12,460 Speaker 2: that's an important part. And I am 330 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:16,859 Speaker 2: full trust that M. A. S. Will carry out their 331 00:18:16,869 --> 00:18:21,669 Speaker 2: plans to develop this market in the ways that they 332 00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:24,590 Speaker 2: have put in their Green finance action plan. 333 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,100 Speaker 1: I sometimes wonder whether we, as economists or private sector 334 00:18:28,109 --> 00:18:30,660 Speaker 1: finance practitioners have sort of failed the world that 335 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,270 Speaker 1: without strong nuts from the public sector, 336 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: we just couldn't make proper progress on emissions trading or 337 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,449 Speaker 1: carbon trading. So do you feel this shift in thinking 338 00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:42,700 Speaker 1: that this is one area, it's too important to be 339 00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:45,210 Speaker 1: left to the private sector that you do need strong over, 340 00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:48,790 Speaker 2: you're not giving yourself credit because I think DBS played 341 00:18:48,790 --> 00:18:51,370 Speaker 2: a very important role, for example, with coming up with 342 00:18:51,369 --> 00:18:52,850 Speaker 2: climate impact exchange, 343 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: this is one of those um A. F. S. Action 344 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,770 Speaker 2: for alliance for Action that came out of Covid, 345 00:19:02,140 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: something good has come out of Covid. We wanted a 346 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,050 Speaker 2: participation of private sector 347 00:19:08,540 --> 00:19:12,990 Speaker 2: in looking at areas that we will we want to 348 00:19:12,990 --> 00:19:17,330 Speaker 2: do during Covid period that allows Singapore to emerge stronger 349 00:19:17,330 --> 00:19:19,670 Speaker 2: as part of the emerging stronger task force 350 00:19:20,140 --> 00:19:25,300 Speaker 2: and in the sustainability area, DBS, Olam Temasek, some other 351 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:29,100 Speaker 2: companies decided to come together and look at this exchange 352 00:19:29,109 --> 00:19:31,660 Speaker 2: for carbon credit in Southeast Asia. 353 00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:36,020 Speaker 2: Well, not Southeast Asia, but having Southeast Asia as, as 354 00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:38,060 Speaker 2: the focus at the start. 355 00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:43,100 Speaker 2: And I think fast forward 12 months, it says make 356 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:44,260 Speaker 2: very good progress 357 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:47,390 Speaker 2: and they're actually taking a lead in creating a market 358 00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:48,669 Speaker 2: for carbon credits 359 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: with high standards. 360 00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 2: Um 361 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,179 Speaker 2: We'd like to think that that's one example of how 362 00:19:55,180 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 2: it's a partnership between private and public sector, 363 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,390 Speaker 2: private sector coming up with ideas with the creativity with 364 00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: the resources to do business development, developed markets at the 365 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,300 Speaker 2: same time, public sector coming in with the regulations with 366 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:17,850 Speaker 2: the right nudges with maybe a trajectory of um 367 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:21,950 Speaker 2: carbon tax is going to increase significantly and therefore giving 368 00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:26,609 Speaker 2: the right conditions to the market development. But actually these 369 00:20:26,609 --> 00:20:27,860 Speaker 2: are a good example 370 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,450 Speaker 2: of how we can use that to develop the carbon credits. 371 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: But if you think about 372 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:35,659 Speaker 2: the impact 373 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,950 Speaker 2: that lenders, 374 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,260 Speaker 2: investors like yourself 375 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,859 Speaker 2: can actually impact 376 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:49,060 Speaker 2: the whole movement towards climate action and a low carbon future. 377 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,350 Speaker 2: You have great influence 378 00:20:51,940 --> 00:20:55,850 Speaker 2: the fact that you have come together for example, under 379 00:20:55,850 --> 00:20:56,770 Speaker 2: defense 380 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,460 Speaker 2: that you're going to put your assets and your lending 381 00:21:00,460 --> 00:21:01,859 Speaker 2: capacity to work. 382 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,270 Speaker 2: You have actually committed 383 00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:07,859 Speaker 2: To moving to Net zero yourself. 384 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,580 Speaker 2: You can do a lot that the government may not 385 00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:15,260 Speaker 2: be able to do because you have that touch point, 386 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,730 Speaker 2: you are able to influence many more of your lenders. 387 00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:21,460 Speaker 2: Your multiplier effect 388 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,060 Speaker 2: is actually huge. 389 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: So my wish is that every lender like dbs 390 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:31,350 Speaker 2: would go on to impact all your customers, 391 00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:33,460 Speaker 2: all your suppliers 392 00:21:33,940 --> 00:21:35,260 Speaker 2: to really move 393 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,060 Speaker 2: in the towards sustainable sustainable development. 394 00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:41,550 Speaker 2: I think that's really powerful. 395 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,460 Speaker 2: Yeah. And you are able to see because you have 396 00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:47,459 Speaker 2: access to balance sheets, 397 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,450 Speaker 2: projections, business plans, 398 00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:55,020 Speaker 2: you have much better information than the government would and 399 00:21:55,020 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: I think your impact in going to the ground in 400 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: multiplying many, many more 401 00:22:01,540 --> 00:22:06,310 Speaker 2: large companies, midsize companies, small companies that sometimes government will 402 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:09,010 Speaker 2: not be able to reach is a lot more powerful 403 00:22:09,010 --> 00:22:11,770 Speaker 2: than you think or you have made up to be 404 00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:14,700 Speaker 1: right. I suppose the reason I sort of sound cynical 405 00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: sometimes I hope you know that cynicism doesn't overtake me 406 00:22:18,130 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: is that 407 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: you hear about companies virtue signaling or looking at is 408 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,890 Speaker 1: she has a box checking exercise and which is where 409 00:22:25,890 --> 00:22:26,609 Speaker 1: I feel that, 410 00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: as you were saying, the taxonomy, the regulatory standards set 411 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: by the government bodies 412 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,730 Speaker 1: have to create sort of strong nudges so that people 413 00:22:34,730 --> 00:22:35,410 Speaker 1: just don't do it as 414 00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:40,689 Speaker 2: it is, it involves regulators, it involves private sector players 415 00:22:40,690 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: like yourself. Actually more importantly, there's also the people that 416 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,330 Speaker 2: supervising this investors, the activists. They are now paying a 417 00:22:49,330 --> 00:22:52,350 Speaker 2: lot more attention on reporting on disclosure 418 00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:55,950 Speaker 2: and I think it is really, um, 419 00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:57,670 Speaker 2: pertinent 420 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: for companies to be mindful of the supervisory effect of 421 00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:05,270 Speaker 2: the investor public. 422 00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:09,650 Speaker 2: And you have seen cases where activists have taken into 423 00:23:09,650 --> 00:23:14,460 Speaker 2: the boardrooms to put management, you know, to take them 424 00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: to task, put them on notice about what's to come 425 00:23:18,490 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: and really driving the change. So it's no longer sufficient 426 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,770 Speaker 2: just to do spiritual signaling 427 00:23:26,140 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: to make commitments in words because your words are going 428 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:30,550 Speaker 2: to be helped 429 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:36,210 Speaker 2: to accountability by the investor public or by activists. They 430 00:23:36,210 --> 00:23:39,410 Speaker 2: will become investors just to send a signal to you. 431 00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:42,430 Speaker 2: And we have seen it in many, many boardrooms, whether 432 00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:45,930 Speaker 2: it's in the US or whether it's a boardroom and 433 00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:49,670 Speaker 2: most recently management of banks. 434 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,050 Speaker 2: I've also been taken to task 435 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,450 Speaker 2: for, you know, 436 00:23:54,940 --> 00:24:01,629 Speaker 2: undermining this whole investment on sustainable development and these are, 437 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to go into specifics, but 438 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 2: I think we're not short of examples of how 439 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: we are now very mindful about the actions of parties 440 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 2: that have made a commitment, it's no longer sufficient to 441 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,660 Speaker 2: just make commitment. We're looking at actions 442 00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:19,649 Speaker 1: Minister actually, that reminds me, I wanted to ask you 443 00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:21,790 Speaker 1: one additional question on the energy side that I forgot 444 00:24:21,790 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: to ask, but this brings me back to that because 445 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: of the activist 446 00:24:24,580 --> 00:24:26,929 Speaker 1: investor issues. So in the last few years, 447 00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:30,100 Speaker 1: um we saw in the US or europe and perhaps 448 00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: elsewhere as well, that because of activism, a lot of 449 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,450 Speaker 1: fossil fuel companies started selling off their or divesting their 450 00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:40,190 Speaker 1: reserves or cut back on their investments. And some would 451 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,310 Speaker 1: argue that as a result we are fragile now that 452 00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:43,060 Speaker 1: we have this 453 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,030 Speaker 1: energy supply crunch and all of a sudden we don't 454 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:47,260 Speaker 1: have enough refining capacity, enough production capacity. 455 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,260 Speaker 1: So did we overreach did we make a mistake, globally speaking? 456 00:24:50,940 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think that a big factor is really, as 457 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,660 Speaker 2: I said, the disruption of the supply or really trying to, 458 00:24:58,670 --> 00:25:02,660 Speaker 2: in a way reduce the influence because of embargo and 459 00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:04,260 Speaker 2: because of um 460 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:07,050 Speaker 2: energy security consideration, 461 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:09,859 Speaker 2: the supply of a significant player. 462 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,980 Speaker 2: I mean if if if you try to reduce the 463 00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: reliance or dependence on Russian oil and gas overnight, 464 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: we're going to be short of capacity anyhow. I think 465 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,060 Speaker 2: it is important for us to look at 466 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,710 Speaker 2: transition carefully. I think this episode with Ukraine war has 467 00:25:29,710 --> 00:25:31,350 Speaker 2: shown us how 468 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,140 Speaker 2: badly things could go if we don't manage the transition 469 00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:38,650 Speaker 2: and it's really a transition that we need to go 470 00:25:38,660 --> 00:25:40,460 Speaker 2: on board, it's not a, 471 00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:45,590 Speaker 2: you know, just a decision to decide to switch overnight 472 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,550 Speaker 2: without a clear transition plan that will not work. 473 00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:52,170 Speaker 2: So we need to think about how to 474 00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: encourage companies to transit, 475 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,270 Speaker 2: so they may have to add on capacity in gas 476 00:25:59,270 --> 00:26:02,859 Speaker 2: for example, while they run down coal fired power plants, 477 00:26:03,340 --> 00:26:06,410 Speaker 2: if you are being too purist about it and say 478 00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:09,030 Speaker 2: that gas is faucet and therefore it's no good, then 479 00:26:09,030 --> 00:26:10,770 Speaker 2: I think we may have transitional problem. 480 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:15,590 Speaker 2: So how do we do this without encouraging just plain 481 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 2: investments and increasing capacity in fossil. But really looking at 482 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,310 Speaker 2: it as a shift, I think that's really where a 483 00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:24,270 Speaker 2: lot of 484 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:31,180 Speaker 2: discussion on plans of transition is needed. Something that, as 485 00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:34,270 Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, maybe the bankers, the lenders, 486 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,270 Speaker 2: the rating agencies will have a hand to play to 487 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: hold companies the large oil majors 488 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 2: to account for their transition plan. 489 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,050 Speaker 1: Among the various sort of long term questions we think 490 00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: about one is something that Singapore has been conveyed to 491 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: the world that, you know, net zero by mid century. 492 00:26:57,450 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: How hard is that to achieve 493 00:27:00,170 --> 00:27:01,270 Speaker 2: extremely hard, 494 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 2: extremely difficult 495 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 2: and full of uncertainties. 496 00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:12,379 Speaker 2: Because we have an outsize carbon footprint because of our 497 00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: industrial makeup. 498 00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:18,449 Speaker 2: We are number one petrochemicals. We have large aviation, we 499 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: have a large maritime sectors, although the carbon footprint doesn't 500 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,060 Speaker 2: count towards Singapore's footprint, 501 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,170 Speaker 2: but we are producing the 502 00:27:29,540 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: patrol, the chemical products to support these sectors. 503 00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: Um, 504 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: so although we have 505 00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:41,780 Speaker 2: um, you know, high carbon footprint per capita, but it's 506 00:27:41,780 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: because we are producing for the rest of the world 507 00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:46,860 Speaker 2: in many of our manufacturing sectors. 508 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,850 Speaker 2: Petrochemical is one, 509 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:55,250 Speaker 2: our advanced manufacturing our chip, for example, sectors export to 510 00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:58,690 Speaker 2: rest of the world as well. But the it's energy 511 00:27:58,690 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: intensive 512 00:27:59,940 --> 00:28:04,230 Speaker 2: and the carbon footprint from these manufacturing activities are counted 513 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:04,949 Speaker 2: towards us 514 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 2: and we don't have renewable 515 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,330 Speaker 2: options, you know, because of land scarcity, solar is very limited. 516 00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 2: We're trying our very best to install solar panels on rooftops, 517 00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 2: on water bodies and we're exploring new areas as well 518 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,270 Speaker 2: to put solar panels, 519 00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:30,060 Speaker 2: but wind will be limited because, you know, just do 520 00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:32,060 Speaker 2: not have the land, have the space 521 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: ah and we'll do our very best 522 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,670 Speaker 2: to look at possibilities. So, we are exploring 523 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:44,580 Speaker 2: Geothermal, we are exploring nuclear, but these are many years 524 00:28:44,590 --> 00:28:47,510 Speaker 2: out there not something that we do in the next 5, 525 00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: 10 years, but maybe 23 decades later. So what do 526 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,410 Speaker 2: we do in the meantime? So the transition pathways is unclear. 527 00:28:55,420 --> 00:28:57,770 Speaker 2: We know that we need to get down, we need to, 528 00:28:57,780 --> 00:29:01,450 Speaker 2: we need to do certain things that will reduce the demand. 529 00:29:01,940 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: So, for example, we will have to 530 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: electrify our mobility, our transportation fleets of cars and busses 531 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: and so on, but it is not going to be enough, 532 00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:18,330 Speaker 2: we need to then look at how do we decarbonization, 533 00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:24,110 Speaker 2: our power electricity grid, That's another big question mark. So 534 00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:24,850 Speaker 2: we're trying 535 00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:26,260 Speaker 2: on all fronts, 536 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:32,010 Speaker 2: important renewables, looking at how to de carbon eyes, looking 537 00:29:32,010 --> 00:29:36,070 Speaker 2: at also hydrogen for example, but these are all not 538 00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:38,060 Speaker 2: quite ready commercially. 539 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,870 Speaker 2: So we are putting in R and D. We're putting, 540 00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:42,550 Speaker 2: we are investing in 541 00:29:42,940 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: pilot sites. We are participating in many sort of trials 542 00:29:47,450 --> 00:29:47,860 Speaker 2: that 543 00:29:48,540 --> 00:29:52,130 Speaker 2: that will put us into a good position, you know, 544 00:29:52,130 --> 00:29:55,260 Speaker 2: to to adopt some of these newer technologies. But it's 545 00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:57,450 Speaker 2: going to be a lot of hard work. 546 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,510 Speaker 2: But we think that ultimately we are confident enough to 547 00:30:02,510 --> 00:30:06,060 Speaker 2: commit to a deadline because there is the possibility of 548 00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: carbon offset. 549 00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:10,770 Speaker 2: Carbon credit offset has given us some buffer, 550 00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:14,290 Speaker 2: sometimes, maybe a few years if you're not able to 551 00:30:14,290 --> 00:30:16,830 Speaker 2: meet it. I think we have at least have some 552 00:30:16,830 --> 00:30:21,330 Speaker 2: way to mitigate those impact. And that's how we intend 553 00:30:21,330 --> 00:30:26,070 Speaker 2: to manage this, really drive down demand, reduce the carbon 554 00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:30,270 Speaker 2: footprint as much as we can through more efficient 555 00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:32,950 Speaker 2: equipment, more efficient power generation, 556 00:30:33,740 --> 00:30:41,170 Speaker 2: greener buildings that takes, you know, less electricity, higher energy efficiency. 557 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,510 Speaker 2: And in the process, then look at how do we 558 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,540 Speaker 2: green and de carbonized our power generation sector, which is, 559 00:30:49,550 --> 00:30:52,850 Speaker 2: which is by far the largest and even for petrochemical 560 00:30:52,850 --> 00:30:54,050 Speaker 2: and our manufacturing 561 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: sector's carbon tax will be a main liver to signal 562 00:30:58,880 --> 00:30:59,860 Speaker 2: what's going to come. 563 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,350 Speaker 2: So that carbon admission now has a cost is no 564 00:31:04,350 --> 00:31:05,450 Speaker 2: longer cost free. 565 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: And that hopefully will also encourage companies to start thinking 566 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:11,060 Speaker 2: about 567 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:12,460 Speaker 2: technology, 568 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,460 Speaker 2: processes, equipment that will reduce their carbon footprint. So if 569 00:31:18,460 --> 00:31:20,450 Speaker 2: you are able to do that sectoral e 570 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,350 Speaker 2: countrywide system wide and at the system level, reduced the energy, 571 00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: have an energy 572 00:31:28,540 --> 00:31:29,110 Speaker 2: mix 573 00:31:29,540 --> 00:31:33,090 Speaker 2: to really be more greener, then I think we can 574 00:31:33,090 --> 00:31:35,270 Speaker 2: move towards a net zero future. 575 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:38,900 Speaker 1: It sounds challenging, but it also sounds so fascinating, right? 576 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:40,650 Speaker 1: I mean, what would you rather do? I mean, this 577 00:31:40,650 --> 00:31:43,700 Speaker 1: is the challenge of our Times Minister, I was at 578 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:47,730 Speaker 1: a conference recently and several smes, Singapore smes state of 579 00:31:47,730 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: the concern that 580 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,230 Speaker 1: carbon transition carbon taxes are fine for large companies. They 581 00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:56,460 Speaker 1: have the world will tell the expertise to deal with 582 00:31:56,460 --> 00:32:00,070 Speaker 1: these things. They're ill equipped and they are petrified of 583 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,330 Speaker 1: things like border adjustment tax that you might be doing 584 00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: or other countries having higher carbon tax and also having 585 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: some sort of an adjustment and and they 586 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:09,570 Speaker 2: seemed 587 00:32:09,570 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: panicky. 588 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: So what is your message to Singaporean smes on carbon taxes? 589 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,730 Speaker 2: Well, I think, first of all, they are absolutely right 590 00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:21,250 Speaker 2: in a sense that cross border adjustments for carbon tax 591 00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:23,450 Speaker 2: is actually on the card is being discussed 592 00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:28,110 Speaker 2: ah and I think some of the regions have seriousness 593 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: about implementation. 594 00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:32,230 Speaker 2: So, it is a risk for us, a political risk 595 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: on some of this decision that's taken outside Singapore, but 596 00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:39,550 Speaker 2: definitely has an impact on Singapore export. 597 00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:43,180 Speaker 2: So I think it's good that our smes are aware 598 00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:45,959 Speaker 2: of what's coming and be prepared 599 00:32:46,540 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: and that's the reason why I think we have a 600 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: carbon tax in Singapore partly 601 00:32:50,940 --> 00:32:55,860 Speaker 2: to cause a change in carbon emission, 602 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: but also at the same time address some of these 603 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,060 Speaker 2: potential risks 604 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,530 Speaker 2: because carbon cross border adjustments will be applied if I 605 00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:08,970 Speaker 2: think if the country does not have a carbon tax 606 00:33:08,980 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: and the fact that we have a carbon tax, I 607 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: think neutralizes some of the risk for us 608 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,140 Speaker 2: For the smaller companies. We do not apply carbon tax 609 00:33:18,140 --> 00:33:20,860 Speaker 2: on them because carbon tax is only applicable for those 610 00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:25,260 Speaker 2: that admit more than 25,000 tons. So we're talking about 611 00:33:25,270 --> 00:33:31,300 Speaker 2: large manufacturing companies in the petrochemicals in power generation and 612 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: also in some of these large manufacturing companies, 613 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,190 Speaker 2: but obviously some effects may fit through utility. And that's 614 00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:44,230 Speaker 2: where I think we also would like companies, small companies 615 00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:46,770 Speaker 2: to look at their energy of take 616 00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:51,660 Speaker 2: how do they reduce their electricity consumption? Can they be 617 00:33:51,660 --> 00:33:55,830 Speaker 2: more efficient? Can they use more energy efficient equipment? Can 618 00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:57,060 Speaker 2: they improve their 619 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,710 Speaker 2: processes to reduce energy for example, or even water? Any 620 00:34:01,710 --> 00:34:06,620 Speaker 2: resource that requires energy will have, you know, has a 621 00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:11,669 Speaker 2: footprint issue. So if they can do that systematically understanding 622 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,950 Speaker 2: where all the consumptions, where all the electricity that is 623 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,350 Speaker 2: being incurred 624 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,250 Speaker 2: and then systematically work through the company to reduce energy 625 00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:24,350 Speaker 2: intake. And I think that's that's the best way for 626 00:34:24,350 --> 00:34:27,540 Speaker 2: companies to mitigate the impact of carbon tax at the 627 00:34:27,540 --> 00:34:30,250 Speaker 2: same time, also to be more 628 00:34:31,790 --> 00:34:32,850 Speaker 2: competitive 629 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: when it comes to, 630 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,469 Speaker 2: you know, selling their products into these markets that require 631 00:34:39,469 --> 00:34:44,230 Speaker 2: high standards on sustainable standards. Increasingly, that's going to be 632 00:34:44,230 --> 00:34:50,150 Speaker 2: the case, not just because of requirements of regulators, but 633 00:34:50,150 --> 00:34:52,669 Speaker 2: also companies themselves in Singapore 634 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 2: when they are committed to net zero, they will look 635 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,370 Speaker 2: at their suppliers, you know, their, their ecosystem and look 636 00:35:00,370 --> 00:35:03,790 Speaker 2: at how the suppliers can supply them with products that 637 00:35:03,790 --> 00:35:07,050 Speaker 2: can help them meet their net zero targets. And so 638 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: I would like the sme to think about this really 639 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,930 Speaker 2: as a offensive measure, how can I be that company 640 00:35:13,930 --> 00:35:14,969 Speaker 2: to supply 641 00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:18,700 Speaker 2: to the increasing demand of sustainable products or products that 642 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:23,570 Speaker 2: meet high sustainability? That will give them a competitive edge 643 00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,549 Speaker 2: over those that do not 644 00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:29,989 Speaker 1: So early on in the conversation, we talked about energy security. 645 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,290 Speaker 1: The other thing that commands headlines these days is food 646 00:35:32,290 --> 00:35:35,149 Speaker 1: security and there is this 30 by 30 plan for 647 00:35:35,150 --> 00:35:38,350 Speaker 1: Singapore and we've seen quite a few initiatives out there, 648 00:35:38,350 --> 00:35:41,270 Speaker 1: both in the private sector and public sector level uh 649 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: farms in Singapore, which was not ubiquitous. And now we're 650 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,250 Speaker 1: hearing more and more about it 651 00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:49,770 Speaker 1: on fish. Same thing off the shores of Singapore, a 652 00:35:49,770 --> 00:35:50,259 Speaker 1: lot of 653 00:35:50,540 --> 00:35:53,990 Speaker 1: aquaculture going on. Are we going to see more development 654 00:35:53,989 --> 00:35:55,860 Speaker 1: and investment in this area in the near term? 655 00:35:55,870 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely! Because we are, we are actually in a very 656 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 2: nascent stage for a long time. We looked at Singapore, 657 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,350 Speaker 2: we have so little land, 658 00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:05,350 Speaker 2: how can we devote 659 00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: the land to agriculture which is intensive, right? Land intensive 660 00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:14,390 Speaker 2: but you know, over the last decade or so, various 661 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:21,060 Speaker 2: episodes in the sort of geopolitical sphere has highlighted us 662 00:36:21,060 --> 00:36:24,550 Speaker 2: the importance of being more self 663 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,660 Speaker 2: secure when it comes to food. 664 00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: But also climate has a big part to play as 665 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: well 666 00:36:31,330 --> 00:36:33,250 Speaker 2: because we are seeing 667 00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:39,730 Speaker 2: you know sort of contemporaneous droughts happening in the region. 668 00:36:39,739 --> 00:36:45,620 Speaker 2: And so even with diversification, climatic impact on food supply 669 00:36:45,630 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 2: is going to be a serious risk for us 670 00:36:48,530 --> 00:36:51,450 Speaker 2: and what do we do then? You know? So besides 671 00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:52,660 Speaker 2: diversification 672 00:36:53,230 --> 00:36:55,660 Speaker 2: we also look at local production 673 00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:57,660 Speaker 2: and um 674 00:36:58,030 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 2: local production is we're just beginning 675 00:37:01,930 --> 00:37:04,450 Speaker 2: and it's such an exciting area 676 00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:09,129 Speaker 2: is first of all it cuts across many different food 677 00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:12,330 Speaker 2: types and each food type has its own sort of 678 00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: farming technology 679 00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:15,250 Speaker 2: and 680 00:37:15,630 --> 00:37:19,740 Speaker 2: along this whole production and supply chain 681 00:37:20,430 --> 00:37:21,149 Speaker 2: each 682 00:37:21,730 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 2: process itself 683 00:37:23,330 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 2: can be improved, can raise productivity and can actually increase ill. 684 00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:29,540 Speaker 2: So from the start of 685 00:37:29,930 --> 00:37:32,350 Speaker 2: the type of seed that you use, can you 686 00:37:32,830 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 2: invest in R. And D. That gives you climatic climate resilience, seed, 687 00:37:38,969 --> 00:37:40,540 Speaker 2: high yielding seed 688 00:37:40,930 --> 00:37:43,350 Speaker 2: seat that is resilient diseases 689 00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:44,589 Speaker 2: for example. 690 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:48,770 Speaker 2: And what kind of products are we able to increase 691 00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:50,660 Speaker 2: the nutritional value 692 00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:54,300 Speaker 2: of the products of the rise that we are planting? 693 00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:57,250 Speaker 2: Are we able to for example, 694 00:37:57,730 --> 00:38:01,660 Speaker 2: increase the yield per plant? Are we able to reduce 695 00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:06,110 Speaker 2: the length of growth period. How do we adjust the 696 00:38:06,110 --> 00:38:10,750 Speaker 2: light so that we give it optimal amount of energy 697 00:38:11,219 --> 00:38:16,529 Speaker 2: and it can grow fastest with lowest energy requirements, 698 00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:21,220 Speaker 2: for example, in the early, early phase of the growth 699 00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:24,620 Speaker 2: of the plants you need very little light but you 700 00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:29,720 Speaker 2: need actually solution with carbohydrates. So actually it's what you 701 00:38:29,730 --> 00:38:31,029 Speaker 2: drip into the plant. 702 00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:32,650 Speaker 2: And as it grows, 703 00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:33,650 Speaker 2: baker 704 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,509 Speaker 2: actually you need more and more light. So actually you 705 00:38:36,510 --> 00:38:38,450 Speaker 2: can adjust the amount of light 706 00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:41,980 Speaker 2: almost to the type of plant, to the face of 707 00:38:41,989 --> 00:38:46,219 Speaker 2: growth and even two different species of the plant. So 708 00:38:46,219 --> 00:38:49,340 Speaker 2: there's a lot of technology in there. How do I 709 00:38:49,350 --> 00:38:51,649 Speaker 2: accumulate enough data? 710 00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:53,339 Speaker 2: How do I capture 711 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:59,390 Speaker 2: the plants at the size that is growing and optimize 712 00:38:59,390 --> 00:39:01,810 Speaker 2: it with the amount of nutrition that I give the 713 00:39:01,810 --> 00:39:03,140 Speaker 2: amount of sunlight that I give 714 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,910 Speaker 2: and what is the best time to harvest so that 715 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,290 Speaker 2: you know the restaurants that need it will get it 716 00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:12,650 Speaker 2: at the optimal freshness. 717 00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:21,780 Speaker 2: So it's logistic arrangement is manufacturing process optimization is digitalization 718 00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:22,150 Speaker 2: with 719 00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:27,580 Speaker 2: you know, ai to mind databases is so fascinating and 720 00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:31,500 Speaker 2: I think this is an area that maybe Singapore is 721 00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:35,980 Speaker 2: most concerned with because most other countries farming is done 722 00:39:35,989 --> 00:39:38,340 Speaker 2: on soil outdoor. 723 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,730 Speaker 2: But because of our land constraints, we have to look 724 00:39:41,730 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: at more intensive farming 725 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:50,100 Speaker 2: and urban Agritel tech, high tech, high intensity, high productivity 726 00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:53,030 Speaker 2: is what we need in order to overcome high cost 727 00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 2: of land, high cost of labor. 728 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,420 Speaker 2: So we do have some unique challenges. But because of 729 00:39:58,420 --> 00:39:59,450 Speaker 2: these challenges, 730 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 2: I think we're looking at very creative and unique solutions 731 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:04,529 Speaker 2: as well. 732 00:40:05,010 --> 00:40:08,860 Speaker 1: Speaking of unique solutions, so we have real meat, real milk, 733 00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:11,750 Speaker 1: real eggs on one side, and now we're seeing increasing 734 00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:16,779 Speaker 1: developments on impossible meat and impossible milk. So where does 735 00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:17,730 Speaker 1: Singapore go with this? 736 00:40:18,510 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 2: So actually that 737 00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:22,760 Speaker 2: to development that's going on, what you said, you know, 738 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,330 Speaker 2: one is really plant based 739 00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:27,530 Speaker 2: basically as you go 740 00:40:28,110 --> 00:40:29,730 Speaker 2: up the food chain, 741 00:40:30,210 --> 00:40:34,590 Speaker 2: ah you know, the carbon footprint increases. So at the top, 742 00:40:34,590 --> 00:40:38,129 Speaker 2: probably talking about red meat like beef. 743 00:40:39,110 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 2: So cow cattle bearing 744 00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:48,750 Speaker 2: huge emission with, you know, with their burbs, with their manure, 745 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,830 Speaker 2: it's high G H G, right? And they need a 746 00:40:51,830 --> 00:40:53,029 Speaker 2: lot of land as well. 747 00:40:53,710 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 2: So how do we um 748 00:40:56,010 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 2: continue to produce sufficient meat to cater to the growing population, 749 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 2: the growing appetite and yet not clear land 750 00:41:05,610 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 2: because that's also a very important consideration for us. How 751 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,030 Speaker 2: do we not lose biodiversity with that? And how do 752 00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:18,010 Speaker 2: we really not remove carbon sink with clearings or virgin forests? 753 00:41:18,020 --> 00:41:21,229 Speaker 2: So these are all consideration at the system level that 754 00:41:21,230 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 2: is constraining us. 755 00:41:22,810 --> 00:41:24,330 Speaker 2: So, and you think about 756 00:41:24,910 --> 00:41:25,739 Speaker 2: climatic 757 00:41:26,410 --> 00:41:29,830 Speaker 2: changes that's going to come variation in climates 758 00:41:30,210 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 2: as we have seen in this Ukraine war when you 759 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,979 Speaker 2: have lower eel, lower production of your basic commodities like 760 00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:44,330 Speaker 2: maize corn, wheat, it knocks on to your animal farming 761 00:41:44,810 --> 00:41:50,220 Speaker 2: right, higher feed prices, higher prices for fertilization fertilizer and 762 00:41:50,219 --> 00:41:50,830 Speaker 2: therefore 763 00:41:51,310 --> 00:41:55,550 Speaker 2: either you increase the cost and therefore the cost of 764 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,410 Speaker 2: meat costs of, you know, produce or you have to 765 00:41:59,410 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 2: reduce 766 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,370 Speaker 2: the amount that you use and therefore reduce your you 767 00:42:03,380 --> 00:42:06,890 Speaker 2: and it has the same effect which is inflationary pressure 768 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:08,219 Speaker 2: on food. 769 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:12,739 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that really points us to look for ways 770 00:42:12,739 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: where we can produce 771 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:15,620 Speaker 2: poutine, 772 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,219 Speaker 2: we can produce carbohydrates at much lower carbon footprint 773 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 2: and with better protection against climatic changes. 774 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:28,930 Speaker 2: And so cell based 775 00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:33,700 Speaker 2: meat, for example, plant based meat is one way where 776 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:35,230 Speaker 2: we can actually substitute 777 00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:40,500 Speaker 2: red meat with plant commodity, reducing the carbon footprint at 778 00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:41,220 Speaker 2: the same time 779 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,250 Speaker 2: for that at the same time. Also, if you look 780 00:42:44,250 --> 00:42:48,469 Speaker 2: at cell base is really to try to reduce the 781 00:42:48,469 --> 00:42:53,020 Speaker 2: amount of carbon that is produced in having red meat, 782 00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:58,180 Speaker 2: you don't have problem with, you know, the kind of 783 00:42:58,190 --> 00:43:02,150 Speaker 2: greenhouse gasses that the rattle that the cattle will produce 784 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,430 Speaker 2: and you don't have to deal with a lot of 785 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:05,020 Speaker 2: waste 786 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,620 Speaker 2: that is produced in the production. You know, you don't 787 00:43:08,620 --> 00:43:12,020 Speaker 2: have to remove the skin, the feather parts that you 788 00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:15,850 Speaker 2: don't eat the bones, you just focus on producing the 789 00:43:15,850 --> 00:43:19,050 Speaker 2: protein that you want and that's meat. So in that 790 00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 2: process actually reduce carbon footprint significantly 791 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,810 Speaker 2: and we want to be there 792 00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 2: because this is the area that meets our needs, 793 00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:32,430 Speaker 2: because we want to have the capability to be able 794 00:43:32,430 --> 00:43:34,020 Speaker 2: to produce our own protein 795 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:37,110 Speaker 2: with very very little land. And actually 796 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:41,430 Speaker 2: that kind of technology meets our constraints on land. 797 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,420 Speaker 1: So is the future vegan. 798 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,750 Speaker 2: No, it's a future where people are still able to 799 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,430 Speaker 2: get their food choices but much better 800 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,230 Speaker 2: environmental impact than now. 801 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,510 Speaker 1: Minister earlier. You talked about the urban 802 00:44:00,890 --> 00:44:05,469 Speaker 1: Footprint that buildings have to be made more attuned to 803 00:44:05,469 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: climate change, emitting less carbon and so on. I spoke 804 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,670 Speaker 1: with who had sustainability at IFC and he pointed out 805 00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:16,430 Speaker 1: to me that in large cities in China buildings account 806 00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:19,609 Speaker 1: for 10, of their greenhouse emissions, air conditioning and so on. 807 00:44:19,790 --> 00:44:21,569 Speaker 1: So walk us through a little bit about how do 808 00:44:21,570 --> 00:44:22,219 Speaker 1: we make, 809 00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:24,650 Speaker 1: not just the new buildings in Singapore, but the old 810 00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:28,210 Speaker 1: buildings and the HDB complexes and so on. More climate friendly. 811 00:44:28,219 --> 00:44:31,930 Speaker 2: Right, so actually, you're right in the sense that for cities, 812 00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:36,070 Speaker 2: actually buildings, built environment is a big part in the 813 00:44:36,070 --> 00:44:41,609 Speaker 2: carbon equation because cities typically very 814 00:44:42,290 --> 00:44:46,230 Speaker 2: sort of intensive in terms of land use and therefore 815 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 2: we want to be close by, we work in large buildings, 816 00:44:49,090 --> 00:44:52,460 Speaker 2: but that's why cities are also more efficient on the 817 00:44:52,460 --> 00:44:55,860 Speaker 2: carbon footprint on the carbon side, because you are able 818 00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:57,970 Speaker 2: to get from one place to another, you have the 819 00:44:57,969 --> 00:45:01,650 Speaker 2: concentration you're able to produce in a much more smaller 820 00:45:01,650 --> 00:45:02,300 Speaker 2: area than 821 00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:06,940 Speaker 2: it is if it's dispersed into the village is. So 822 00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:11,530 Speaker 2: cities offer challenges, but at the same time solutions as well. 823 00:45:11,540 --> 00:45:14,150 Speaker 2: So how do we green our building is something that 824 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 2: I think in the M. N. D. B. C. A family, they're, 825 00:45:17,770 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 2: they're really spending time to think about this issue. So 826 00:45:22,010 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 2: for new builds, 827 00:45:23,390 --> 00:45:26,210 Speaker 2: the government, for example, is 828 00:45:26,690 --> 00:45:31,180 Speaker 2: requiring all our government agencies to build to the highest 829 00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:34,720 Speaker 2: green standards, which is what we call super low emission standard. 830 00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 2: We also require any government agencies to retrofit to a 831 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,500 Speaker 2: high standard when they do major retrofitting. 832 00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:49,460 Speaker 2: We're encouraging companies to improve energy efficiency of the air 833 00:45:49,460 --> 00:45:54,210 Speaker 2: conditioning by giving grants. So part of the carbon tax equation, 834 00:45:54,690 --> 00:46:00,020 Speaker 2: it's not just to impose a explicit cost on the emitters, 835 00:46:00,030 --> 00:46:01,500 Speaker 2: but at the same time 836 00:46:02,180 --> 00:46:03,589 Speaker 2: putting incentives 837 00:46:03,980 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 2: to encourage some of these emitters to do the right 838 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 2: thing to invest in process improvement to invest in new 839 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,290 Speaker 2: equipment in order to reduce their carbon tax bill. 840 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,950 Speaker 2: So when we do that, that's how we can cause 841 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 2: a change tax 842 00:46:19,980 --> 00:46:22,660 Speaker 2: the emission. But at the same time, if you are 843 00:46:22,670 --> 00:46:24,900 Speaker 2: prepared to invest in 844 00:46:25,580 --> 00:46:27,500 Speaker 2: new new cooling system, 845 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 2: we will put in grants to support that. So it's 846 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,670 Speaker 2: both a carrot and stick kind of approach to steer 847 00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:38,590 Speaker 2: the ship towards a different direction. 848 00:46:39,380 --> 00:46:43,739 Speaker 2: We're also exploring some new concepts, for example, like district cooling. 849 00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:46,760 Speaker 2: District cooling is quite common in an area like this 850 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,990 Speaker 2: where you are sitting on, 851 00:46:48,380 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 2: but it is not so in 852 00:46:50,980 --> 00:46:52,210 Speaker 2: public housing estate. 853 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,800 Speaker 2: So we're doing that in a new estate now in Tonga, 854 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,989 Speaker 2: it's on district cooling basis because once you 855 00:47:00,580 --> 00:47:07,029 Speaker 2: remove the need to generate ah, to do air conditioning 856 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 2: to cool on a single unit basis into a more 857 00:47:11,580 --> 00:47:16,510 Speaker 2: integrated basis with scale, you reduce the wastage, right? So 858 00:47:16,510 --> 00:47:18,620 Speaker 2: we think there's a lot more energy efficient if you 859 00:47:18,620 --> 00:47:21,750 Speaker 2: are able to pull all the cooling needs into a 860 00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 2: larger chiller for example, 861 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,230 Speaker 2: um, and we'll do that for the new estates. We're 862 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 2: also piloting 863 00:47:28,780 --> 00:47:34,529 Speaker 2: To convert Brownfield projects. We have started with that in tampons, 864 00:47:34,540 --> 00:47:38,940 Speaker 2: the tampons business area in the center is actually an 865 00:47:38,940 --> 00:47:42,529 Speaker 2: existing town already very established for probably 20 years or 866 00:47:42,530 --> 00:47:46,710 Speaker 2: so with many sort of processing arm of insurance companies 867 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,100 Speaker 2: residing there, 868 00:47:48,580 --> 00:47:53,819 Speaker 2: we are going to implement or we are implementing district cooling, 869 00:47:53,830 --> 00:47:56,410 Speaker 2: reconfiguring the way that the 870 00:47:56,780 --> 00:48:00,259 Speaker 2: buildings are cooling themselves in those areas. And we are 871 00:48:00,270 --> 00:48:03,290 Speaker 2: also now thinking about piloting in 872 00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 2: Brownfield HDB Estates, something to think about. So we are 873 00:48:08,410 --> 00:48:09,089 Speaker 2: learning 874 00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:14,550 Speaker 2: as we go piloting with a smaller district, learning the 875 00:48:14,550 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 2: lessons from it, clear all the regulatory sort of hurdles 876 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,110 Speaker 2: lots of it, um, and also think about what will 877 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 2: require 878 00:48:23,570 --> 00:48:28,890 Speaker 2: for the stakeholders building owners to invest and to convert 879 00:48:28,890 --> 00:48:29,690 Speaker 2: because 880 00:48:30,070 --> 00:48:34,140 Speaker 2: it is pointless to have a district cooling system when 881 00:48:34,140 --> 00:48:35,790 Speaker 2: the buildings are not drawing 882 00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:38,779 Speaker 2: from it and continue to use their own, 883 00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:42,390 Speaker 2: you know, self contained system, then it defeats the whole 884 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,170 Speaker 2: investment in district cooling, so there's a lot to be 885 00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:49,920 Speaker 2: learned about putting in a new model of cooling. So 886 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,129 Speaker 2: we are learning with pilot sites and then expanding to 887 00:48:53,130 --> 00:48:57,090 Speaker 2: the rest of the country. So that's happening on many fronts. 888 00:48:57,870 --> 00:49:02,440 Speaker 1: Mr what a wide ranging and incredibly informative and insightful 889 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,440 Speaker 1: conversation I think on behalf of my viewers and listeners 890 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,570 Speaker 1: and I cannot thank you enough for your time and insights. 891 00:49:07,580 --> 00:49:11,490 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. And I hope that your listeners, 892 00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:15,270 Speaker 2: your colleagues will join us on the drive towards a 893 00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:19,050 Speaker 2: sustainable future is an exciting journey. It will be bumpy, 894 00:49:19,050 --> 00:49:20,190 Speaker 2: it will have challenges. 895 00:49:20,270 --> 00:49:24,850 Speaker 2: But I think uh, the fruits at the end of it, 896 00:49:24,850 --> 00:49:27,339 Speaker 2: the picking will be really right. 897 00:49:27,350 --> 00:49:30,620 Speaker 1: It's a call to action like no other, it's the 898 00:49:30,630 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 1: call of our generation. So 899 00:49:32,370 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 2: absolutely thank you very much. 900 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:34,790 Speaker 1: Thank you very much 901 00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: and thanks to our listeners to copy time was produced 902 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,230 Speaker 1: by ken del Bridge from Spy Studios, daisy Sharma and 903 00:49:41,230 --> 00:49:45,280 Speaker 1: violently provided additional assistance. All 79 episodes of Kobe time 904 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 1: are available on all major podcast platforms including apple, google 905 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,010 Speaker 1: and Spotify as well as on Youtube as for our 906 00:49:52,010 --> 00:49:53,580 Speaker 1: research publications and webinars, 907 00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:56,790 Speaker 1: you can find them all by googling DBS Research Library. 908 00:49:56,969 --> 00:49:58,500 Speaker 1: Have a great day