1 00:00:06,059 --> 00:00:08,869 Speaker 1: Welcome to Covid Time, a podcast series on markets and 2 00:00:08,869 --> 00:00:12,329 Speaker 1: economies from DBS group research. I'm tom Lubeck, chief economist 3 00:00:12,330 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: here at DBS. Welcome to our 95th episode, 4 00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:19,510 Speaker 1: one of the most popular episodes in the history of 5 00:00:19,510 --> 00:00:23,250 Speaker 1: Covid Time is episode 25. When we had World Gold 6 00:00:23,250 --> 00:00:29,410 Speaker 1: Council shall have fun discuss various dimensions of gold mining, refining, production, demand, 7 00:00:29,420 --> 00:00:32,340 Speaker 1: investment and trading. It was a fascinating podcast, 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,820 Speaker 1: but it was more than two years ago and a 9 00:00:33,820 --> 00:00:37,900 Speaker 1: lot has happened since then. Think about it inflation spikes 10 00:00:37,909 --> 00:00:41,500 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine, organization of the U. S. Dollar monetary 11 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:44,740 Speaker 1: policy tightening and soaring interest rates, things that make people 12 00:00:44,740 --> 00:00:47,500 Speaker 1: consider gold as a serious investment idea. 13 00:00:48,020 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: During that period, gold went from $1700 an ounce in 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,420 Speaker 1: early 21 to over $2,000 1 year ago when the 15 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: crisis in Ukraine was breaking out and then it corrected 16 00:00:57,850 --> 00:01:01,670 Speaker 1: down to 1615, October of last year and then headed 17 00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:03,950 Speaker 1: up again, hitting 2000 just a couple of weeks ago 18 00:01:03,950 --> 00:01:07,510 Speaker 1: at end January. So lots of up and down. But 19 00:01:07,510 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: at the same time when you think about it in 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,730 Speaker 1: its totality, maybe not as volatile and not as repeated 21 00:01:12,730 --> 00:01:16,390 Speaker 1: with downside as other investments like stocks and bonds. 22 00:01:16,830 --> 00:01:19,550 Speaker 1: Well with so much going on, it is high time 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,090 Speaker 1: we bring xiao chi back whose current title at the 24 00:01:22,090 --> 00:01:25,820 Speaker 1: World Gold Council is head of central bank relationship on 25 00:01:25,830 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: a warm welcome back. Thank you so much. Thank you 26 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: for the coffee. It's great to have you here. Likewise, cheers. 27 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Um 28 00:01:35,950 --> 00:01:39,450 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask with some housekeeping questions. Some of them 29 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:41,980 Speaker 1: actually I asked you back in 2020 but I think 30 00:01:41,980 --> 00:01:45,650 Speaker 1: they're so interesting and some of them have actually evolved 31 00:01:45,660 --> 00:01:48,970 Speaker 1: in terms of recent events. It's worth going back there. 32 00:01:49,170 --> 00:01:52,510 Speaker 1: So let's start with your outfit. World Gold Council but 33 00:01:52,510 --> 00:01:53,950 Speaker 1: it's a function. What is objective. 34 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: Sure. We are a market development organization for the gold industry. 35 00:01:57,930 --> 00:02:00,410 Speaker 2: We have a basic mission to enhance and improve the 36 00:02:00,410 --> 00:02:03,860 Speaker 2: gold market, to grow it, to educate people to make 37 00:02:03,860 --> 00:02:05,740 Speaker 2: sure people are aware of how gold fits into a 38 00:02:05,740 --> 00:02:09,300 Speaker 2: portfolio were owned by mining companies. But we don't focus 39 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:12,630 Speaker 2: on their specific operations and issues. We focus purely on 40 00:02:12,630 --> 00:02:14,690 Speaker 2: making sure the gold market is better. 41 00:02:15,370 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: If I were to go to the World Gold Council website, 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:18,250 Speaker 1: what would I see 43 00:02:18,260 --> 00:02:23,609 Speaker 2: all sorts of information on gold data supply and demand statistics, 44 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: price statistics and a bunch of different tools that we 45 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,980 Speaker 2: have available all for free, including tools on gold valuation, 46 00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:33,170 Speaker 2: on the role of golden and portfolio as well as 47 00:02:33,169 --> 00:02:36,930 Speaker 2: historic information on how much gold was bought by central 48 00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:38,619 Speaker 2: banks for instance. And 49 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,610 Speaker 2: also a lot of thematic research, 50 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,460 Speaker 1: We're definitely gonna talk about that. Indeed, in terms of 51 00:02:43,460 --> 00:02:45,790 Speaker 1: thematic research, I think you guys put out something called 52 00:02:45,790 --> 00:02:49,550 Speaker 1: like 30 years of gold trend which I thought was 53 00:02:49,550 --> 00:02:52,260 Speaker 1: very interesting and some of the data that you put 54 00:02:52,260 --> 00:02:54,750 Speaker 1: out which is not exactly the same as the gold 55 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:56,810 Speaker 1: data that I would get from the IMF 56 00:02:56,950 --> 00:02:58,700 Speaker 2: not exactly the same exact. 57 00:02:58,980 --> 00:03:01,060 Speaker 2: Thank you for being a patron of our website first 58 00:03:01,060 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: of all and you're right to point out for plugging 59 00:03:03,930 --> 00:03:06,260 Speaker 2: when I didn't have to plug 30 years of gold 60 00:03:06,260 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: demand trends. Which is our one of our flagship research 61 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: reports that we sent out every quarter with that actually 62 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,299 Speaker 2: we've created a special report that shows how the gold 63 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:17,709 Speaker 2: market has evolved in the last three decades and it's 64 00:03:17,710 --> 00:03:18,700 Speaker 2: changed quite a bit 65 00:03:19,139 --> 00:03:20,690 Speaker 1: I can imagine and I want to actually pick your 66 00:03:20,690 --> 00:03:24,700 Speaker 1: brain on that later on. But first very simple question. 67 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,310 Speaker 1: House cares is gold. 68 00:03:26,580 --> 00:03:28,970 Speaker 2: No question from you is ever that simple timor. But 69 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:32,489 Speaker 2: gold is relatively scarce. It's the I think the 75th 70 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: most rare element in the earth's crust. It is one 71 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,230 Speaker 2: of the more one of the most rare precious metals 72 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,460 Speaker 2: of all the categories of precious metals. And according to 73 00:03:41,460 --> 00:03:45,020 Speaker 2: the U. S. Geological Survey about 200,000 tons of gold 74 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:47,530 Speaker 2: has already been dug up from the earth's surface which 75 00:03:47,530 --> 00:03:49,860 Speaker 2: is more than half of all the gold that exists 76 00:03:49,860 --> 00:03:53,010 Speaker 2: on earth. But although 200,000 sounds like a lot of 77 00:03:53,010 --> 00:03:55,130 Speaker 2: gold because gold is so 78 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:57,540 Speaker 2: dense that only means it can fill about three swimming 79 00:03:57,540 --> 00:03:59,700 Speaker 2: pools full of gold. So all the gold that exists 80 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:01,980 Speaker 2: on earth has already been mined can sit inside three 81 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: swimming pools. 82 00:04:03,030 --> 00:04:04,650 Speaker 1: A pound of gold is not the same as a 83 00:04:04,650 --> 00:04:08,090 Speaker 1: pound of bread. No not quite much smaller. Yes, exactly. 84 00:04:08,090 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: Less tasty though. Yes. Well it's used in food products 85 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:12,150 Speaker 1: these days. Quite a bit 86 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:13,860 Speaker 2: maybe the food products. 87 00:04:14,110 --> 00:04:15,420 Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, indeed, indeed. 88 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,910 Speaker 1: Um Let's talk a little bit about the supply site. 89 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: Tell me about the key producers and suppliers out there. 90 00:04:22,650 --> 00:04:24,660 Speaker 2: Sure. Well, you know, there's a variety of gold mining 91 00:04:24,660 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: companies out there. There are lots of large scale multinational companies, 92 00:04:28,650 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: I think in terms of the largest producers last year, Newmont, Barrick, Agnico, Anglogold, 93 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,530 Speaker 2: Ashanti Newcrest and many others, they're the largest, the larger 94 00:04:38,529 --> 00:04:40,990 Speaker 2: international producers And of course all 95 00:04:41,005 --> 00:04:44,075 Speaker 2: those companies are member companies as well. But you know, 96 00:04:44,075 --> 00:04:46,565 Speaker 2: there's a wide ecosystem when it comes to gold supply. 97 00:04:46,565 --> 00:04:49,435 Speaker 2: There also small scale producers in some countries as well 98 00:04:49,445 --> 00:04:51,664 Speaker 2: who are, you know, a part of the gold supply 99 00:04:51,665 --> 00:04:53,095 Speaker 2: chain to the large 100 00:04:53,095 --> 00:04:55,854 Speaker 1: companies that you just mentioned. These are multinationals in the 101 00:04:55,855 --> 00:04:56,844 Speaker 1: truest sense of the word, 102 00:04:57,055 --> 00:05:00,975 Speaker 2: They operate in many different jurisdictions, headquarters might be one place, 103 00:05:00,975 --> 00:05:01,985 Speaker 2: but their gold mining somewhere 104 00:05:01,985 --> 00:05:06,185 Speaker 1: else. And we're talking gold mostly being mined in africa, 105 00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:08,950 Speaker 2: so it's actually quite widespread and that's one of the 106 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: interesting facts about gold mining. The dispersion of gold around 107 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: the world is quite diverse. So gold mining occurs on 108 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,510 Speaker 2: every continent except Antarctica. Um And actually the amount of 109 00:05:19,510 --> 00:05:23,230 Speaker 2: gold mining by continent is, you know, pretty well balanced. 110 00:05:23,230 --> 00:05:26,419 Speaker 2: There isn't like one continent that's a huge producer, another continent. 111 00:05:26,420 --> 00:05:27,729 Speaker 2: That's a very small producer 112 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,910 Speaker 2: And that means that gold is not as susceptible to 113 00:05:30,910 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: supply shocks as other commodities might be those that are 114 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:36,420 Speaker 2: focused on one region or even one country and that 115 00:05:36,420 --> 00:05:38,860 Speaker 2: adds to sort of the steadiness of gold supply and 116 00:05:38,860 --> 00:05:41,890 Speaker 2: contributes to gold's diverse price performance as well. 117 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:44,419 Speaker 1: Right? So unlike the diamond, which is South Africa, I 118 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:46,650 Speaker 1: believe Canada Russia and then we start running out of 119 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: places where diamond mining happens. Um What about refining? 120 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:52,270 Speaker 2: So refining is also spread out in a lot of 121 00:05:52,270 --> 00:05:54,770 Speaker 2: different places. But there's a concept in the gold market 122 00:05:54,770 --> 00:05:58,060 Speaker 2: called good delivery, which is a list of specifications that 123 00:05:58,060 --> 00:06:01,770 Speaker 2: makes a gold bar acceptable for trade in the London market. Um, 124 00:06:01,770 --> 00:06:05,060 Speaker 2: and that good delivery is a list that's defined by 125 00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:06,940 Speaker 2: the London Bullion Markets Association 126 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 2: and only select Refiners are allowed to create good delivery bars. 127 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: So if you want a list of Refiners, I'd consult 128 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,260 Speaker 2: the L. B. M. A list of good delivery Refiners. 129 00:06:15,390 --> 00:06:17,980 Speaker 1: Are there a number of Refiners in this 130 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:20,350 Speaker 2: region? Yeah, they're quite a bit including one in our 131 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,650 Speaker 2: own backyard and jerome I think metal or so if 132 00:06:23,650 --> 00:06:25,210 Speaker 2: you're based in Singapore, you want to go check out 133 00:06:25,210 --> 00:06:27,110 Speaker 2: a refinery and there's one in jerome, not 134 00:06:27,110 --> 00:06:28,940 Speaker 1: too far. How about that? I think 135 00:06:28,964 --> 00:06:31,195 Speaker 1: you pointed this out even two years ago. I bet you, 136 00:06:31,205 --> 00:06:33,145 Speaker 1: most people were shocked to hear that and many will 137 00:06:33,145 --> 00:06:35,245 Speaker 1: be shocked to hear at this time to right here 138 00:06:35,255 --> 00:06:39,455 Speaker 1: in Singapore, how much is being produced each year and 139 00:06:39,455 --> 00:06:40,765 Speaker 1: what's been the trend like? 140 00:06:40,775 --> 00:06:44,425 Speaker 2: Sure, so on average, I think it's about 3000 tons 141 00:06:44,425 --> 00:06:46,995 Speaker 2: or so being produced each year of newly mined gold 142 00:06:47,065 --> 00:06:51,945 Speaker 2: in 2022 it was roughly 3600 tons. And it has 143 00:06:51,945 --> 00:06:54,685 Speaker 2: been a growing trend over time. So since we released 144 00:06:54,685 --> 00:06:56,594 Speaker 2: that 30 year special report, we looked at some of 145 00:06:56,595 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 2: these trends 146 00:06:57,550 --> 00:07:01,609 Speaker 2: and I think in 1992 it was about 2200 tons 147 00:07:01,620 --> 00:07:05,570 Speaker 2: of gold being newly mined every year. So the overall 148 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: growth in gold supply has kind of matched the growth 149 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,670 Speaker 2: in gold demand maybe slightly less, but it has matched 150 00:07:11,670 --> 00:07:14,470 Speaker 2: the growth in gold demand. And like I said, you know, 151 00:07:14,470 --> 00:07:16,790 Speaker 2: gold is now being mined in more in more jurisdictions 152 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:20,140 Speaker 2: more countries and it's quite diverse in terms of geographic sourcing, 153 00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: it's a fairly steady production profile if we look at 154 00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:24,410 Speaker 1: the last couple of 155 00:07:24,410 --> 00:07:26,940 Speaker 2: decades. Yeah, more or less it has grown of course 156 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:28,610 Speaker 2: because the gold market has grown from the low 157 00:07:28,610 --> 00:07:29,630 Speaker 1: tools to the to 158 00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:33,100 Speaker 2: the high threes. But another source of gold supply is 159 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:36,950 Speaker 2: gold recycling because unlike other commodities, gold isn't destroyed when 160 00:07:36,950 --> 00:07:39,820 Speaker 2: it's consumed. So you know, people can sell their old 161 00:07:39,820 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: jewelry into the back into the supply chain 162 00:07:41,930 --> 00:07:44,190 Speaker 2: and the amount of recycling various year on year based 163 00:07:44,190 --> 00:07:44,990 Speaker 2: on the gold price, 164 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: correctly understanding that electronics is a big source of gold 165 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,890 Speaker 1: and people try to scavenge gold from all the electronics products. True, 166 00:07:51,890 --> 00:07:54,970 Speaker 2: There's about $20 worth of gold in every iPhone. So 167 00:07:55,010 --> 00:07:58,210 Speaker 2: it's worth, you know when electronics reenter the supply chain, 168 00:07:58,220 --> 00:08:01,050 Speaker 2: people do try to remove the gold components to sell 169 00:08:01,050 --> 00:08:01,500 Speaker 2: that on 170 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,770 Speaker 1: $20 in every iPhone. How about that? 171 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:06,660 Speaker 1: Um I want to talk about the demand side of gold. 172 00:08:06,660 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: Of course that's the big story but not yet. A 173 00:08:08,890 --> 00:08:12,940 Speaker 1: couple of more questions about the finance and commerce of gold. 174 00:08:13,060 --> 00:08:16,450 Speaker 1: Let's talk with the gold market where and how is 175 00:08:16,450 --> 00:08:17,060 Speaker 1: gold traded? 176 00:08:17,070 --> 00:08:19,410 Speaker 2: So gold traded around the world, it's actually one of 177 00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: the most liquid asset classes. I think a lot of 178 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,950 Speaker 2: people have a misconception that because gold is a physical 179 00:08:23,950 --> 00:08:27,060 Speaker 2: asset that it's not a very liquid financial asset class 180 00:08:27,070 --> 00:08:29,350 Speaker 2: but actually it's more liquid than some of the major 181 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:29,790 Speaker 2: european 182 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: sovereign bond markets, more liquid than the dow jones industrial 183 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,050 Speaker 2: index for instance. And it's traded around the world. Um 184 00:08:36,059 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: Like I might have mentioned, London is a major center 185 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: for gold trading. So the over the counter market in 186 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,700 Speaker 2: London makes up about half of the daily trading volume 187 00:08:43,790 --> 00:08:46,630 Speaker 2: for gold. But there are other major trading centers as well, 188 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,470 Speaker 2: the Comex market in new york for instance, the shanghai 189 00:08:49,470 --> 00:08:52,390 Speaker 2: gold exchange and the shanghai futures exchange, they are all 190 00:08:52,390 --> 00:08:55,599 Speaker 2: large components of the global gold trading ecosystem too. 191 00:08:55,890 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: And in recent years we've seen a lot more gold E. T. 192 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,580 Speaker 2: S coming to the scene and they're exchange traded. So 193 00:09:00,580 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: they're traded on equity markets across many different jurisdictions 194 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:07,150 Speaker 1: and beyond the spot futures and derivatives. 195 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: They exist as well, futures derivatives options. They all exist 196 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:10,829 Speaker 2: for the gold markets 197 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,430 Speaker 1: primarily in London or shanghai. There's like, you know, you 198 00:09:15,429 --> 00:09:16,060 Speaker 1: can certainly 199 00:09:16,059 --> 00:09:17,740 Speaker 2: in London, I think some of the bullion banks their 200 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:20,300 Speaker 2: offer those services, there are bullion banks based in Singapore 201 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: as well that might offer those services. 202 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: Um but I think it takes place all around the 203 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,030 Speaker 2: world 204 00:09:25,130 --> 00:09:27,140 Speaker 1: and Goldie TF, you just mentioned that let's talk a 205 00:09:27,140 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: little more about it. Has it become a big thing, 206 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,150 Speaker 1: has it always been a big thing? 207 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: So Goldie TFS has been around for just around 20 208 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,590 Speaker 2: years now and they truly changed how gold was being 209 00:09:36,590 --> 00:09:39,290 Speaker 2: used as an investment because they made it much easier 210 00:09:39,290 --> 00:09:41,810 Speaker 2: for all sorts of investors to access gold. They really 211 00:09:41,809 --> 00:09:43,420 Speaker 2: democratize gold investment. 212 00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:45,770 Speaker 2: So instead of thinking, how do I, if I want 213 00:09:45,770 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 2: to buy gold, how do I buy it? Do I 214 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: have to go down to uh, you know, coin store, 215 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,630 Speaker 2: for instance, by gold coin. Now, you can just type 216 00:09:51,630 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: it into your E trade account or whatever account and 217 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: then you can add gold into your portfolio instantly. 218 00:09:57,179 --> 00:09:59,550 Speaker 1: Is there a way for us to know whether the E. T. 219 00:09:59,550 --> 00:10:02,170 Speaker 1: S are largely used by retail investors or is it 220 00:10:02,170 --> 00:10:03,290 Speaker 1: largely by institutional. 221 00:10:03,290 --> 00:10:07,100 Speaker 2: So us listed E. T. S publish the holders up 222 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:10,060 Speaker 2: to a certain threshold. But I'd say the retail level 223 00:10:10,059 --> 00:10:13,250 Speaker 2: probably below that threshold. But you know, anecdotally I do, 224 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:16,510 Speaker 2: you know many retail investors that use Goldie Tfs to 225 00:10:16,510 --> 00:10:20,010 Speaker 2: add gold exposure. And also many institutional investors use Goldie 226 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:21,940 Speaker 2: TFS as well. And just to get back to one 227 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:24,540 Speaker 2: of your earlier points, the E. T. F. Gold market 228 00:10:24,540 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: has grown significantly in the last 20 years. The amount 229 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,740 Speaker 2: of gold that they've amassed totally is comparable to some 230 00:10:30,740 --> 00:10:33,850 Speaker 2: of the large scale official sector holders, Central bank holders 231 00:10:33,850 --> 00:10:34,620 Speaker 2: of gold. Now, 232 00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:38,210 Speaker 1: so to your point of gold being liquid gold being 233 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:42,940 Speaker 1: widely held immediately, then it becomes a useful collateral. I 234 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:46,140 Speaker 1: know from personal experience that in South Asia India Bangladesh, 235 00:10:46,140 --> 00:10:50,250 Speaker 1: sri Lanka, gold lean is a big business loans around 236 00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: gold is a big business. Is this something a South 237 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,429 Speaker 1: Asia specific phenomenon or do we, 238 00:10:55,309 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: I 239 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: mean you can use it at a personal retail level. 240 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: You see pawn shops where you can pledge the golden 241 00:11:01,190 --> 00:11:03,990 Speaker 2: but not just at the personal level at the governmental level. 242 00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:06,730 Speaker 2: There are countries that use gold as collateral to get 243 00:11:06,730 --> 00:11:10,260 Speaker 2: access to us dollar liquidity during times of need. I think, 244 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:12,179 Speaker 2: you know, a couple years back during the financial crisis, 245 00:11:12,179 --> 00:11:14,090 Speaker 2: there were countries that did just that, 246 00:11:14,290 --> 00:11:16,790 Speaker 2: so it's not just, you know, pawning your gold necklace 247 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,300 Speaker 2: at a high street pawnshop also at the central bank level, 248 00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:21,429 Speaker 2: they're doing the same thing, 249 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,550 Speaker 1: Right? So I think the 90s were very interesting examples 250 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: India in the early 90s was in severe balance of 251 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,420 Speaker 1: payments stress and that was the biggest. So the last 252 00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: straw for India to use their gold reserves to borrow money. 253 00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:34,459 Speaker 1: And of course I remember I was in grad school 254 00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: at that time in the 97-98 Asian financial crisis. The 255 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: Korean households where donating pieces of gold jewelry and bars 256 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: and so on to the government. 257 00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:46,590 Speaker 2: But India ultimately got the last laugh because they was 258 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:50,660 Speaker 2: able to buy back the IMF I think in 2009 259 00:11:50,660 --> 00:11:52,940 Speaker 2: 2010 or so. And now actually the R. B. I. 260 00:11:52,950 --> 00:11:55,429 Speaker 2: India's central bank has been buying gold almost every month 261 00:11:55,429 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 2: for the last few years. 262 00:11:57,570 --> 00:12:00,309 Speaker 1: Actually there's another interesting anecdote with respect to the I. M. F. 263 00:12:00,309 --> 00:12:03,750 Speaker 1: And gold. When the original quota allocation of the I. M. F. 264 00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:06,230 Speaker 1: Was done. A certain amount of valuation was based on 265 00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:09,310 Speaker 1: gold from East Central Bank's reserves. That did a big 266 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,990 Speaker 1: reevaluation exercise of that 30 40 years later. And it 267 00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:15,340 Speaker 1: sort of unleashed a huge amount of resources for all 268 00:12:15,340 --> 00:12:17,870 Speaker 1: these countries and in a way it added to global 269 00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:19,580 Speaker 1: liquidity at a time because the 270 00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:20,610 Speaker 2: price has gone up so much 271 00:12:20,610 --> 00:12:21,950 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. 272 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: I want to stay with this trading investment aspect of 273 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: gold when you look at asset managers around the world 274 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,569 Speaker 1: in a typical portfolio precious metals probably have a role 275 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: to play. Not everywhere, but in many cases, what's your sense? 276 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:36,900 Speaker 1: You know, what do asset managers do in terms of 277 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: weight towards precious metals, particularly 278 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,430 Speaker 2: gold. There's no single answer to that. Of course. You 279 00:12:41,429 --> 00:12:44,390 Speaker 2: know every portfolio is different based on the portfolio composition, 280 00:12:44,390 --> 00:12:46,890 Speaker 2: risk tolerance, investment objectives etcetera. 281 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: Um In our analysis we found that almost every portfolio 282 00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:52,730 Speaker 2: at the institutional level and also maybe at the retail 283 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:55,870 Speaker 2: level can benefit from some exposure to gold. It can 284 00:12:55,870 --> 00:12:58,830 Speaker 2: usually add uh it can increase risk adjusted returns for 285 00:12:58,830 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 2: the most part because its behavior is so different than 286 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: most other asset classes that investors are exposed to. As 287 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,610 Speaker 2: very little correlation to equities, correlation is very low to 288 00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:08,910 Speaker 2: fixed income for instance. 289 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:11,969 Speaker 2: So it really adds a lot of diversification value but 290 00:13:11,970 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: also potential upside. And that's something that I think people 291 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,500 Speaker 2: forget about. People usually think of gold is either downside 292 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:21,230 Speaker 2: protection or hedge against inflation. But actually during times when 293 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,540 Speaker 2: there's a bull market in the S. And P. Um 294 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:27,809 Speaker 2: the correlation of gold to risk assets becomes positive. So 295 00:13:27,809 --> 00:13:29,570 Speaker 2: although it won't go up as much as you know, 296 00:13:29,580 --> 00:13:32,089 Speaker 2: a risk asset would it's not saying that's going to 297 00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:34,949 Speaker 2: go down during good periods as well. However, during a 298 00:13:34,950 --> 00:13:38,390 Speaker 2: downturn though you do see gold safe haven characteristics kick 299 00:13:38,390 --> 00:13:38,689 Speaker 2: in 300 00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:41,140 Speaker 2: when the S. And P. Has a major pullback, then 301 00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: gold's correlation to the smp becomes negative. So you're able 302 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,670 Speaker 2: to capture a bit of the upside while also protecting 303 00:13:46,670 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: yourself on the downside as well. 304 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Earlier at the beginning of the podcast I talked 305 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: about goals movement from 1,602,000 and so on. But those 306 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,670 Speaker 1: are US dollar prices. If somebody sitting in the emerging 307 00:13:57,670 --> 00:14:02,550 Speaker 1: markets like India where the rupee on average depreciation of 308 00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: the US dollar by 57% 309 00:14:04,450 --> 00:14:06,630 Speaker 1: it's a very different picture. I mean it's like an 310 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,620 Speaker 1: almost constant upward sloping line in local currency terms. As 311 00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:13,030 Speaker 1: far as gold holding is concerned, it's the dollar one 312 00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:15,610 Speaker 1: that has greater degree of volatility. But even that as 313 00:14:15,610 --> 00:14:18,570 Speaker 1: you point out is not as volatile as some other 314 00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:20,710 Speaker 2: risk assets. That's a very good point. Not just E. 315 00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:22,820 Speaker 2: Em currencies as well I think in sterling terms and 316 00:14:23,380 --> 00:14:27,580 Speaker 2: gold has hit record highs recently, but specifically for E. M. Markets, 317 00:14:27,580 --> 00:14:30,070 Speaker 2: I think gold has that special connection of being 318 00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: um something that is widely trusted by the average household 319 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,230 Speaker 2: in a market like Turkey, for instance where the lira 320 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,020 Speaker 2: goes through periods of, you know, a lot of volatility, 321 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: people turn to gold because it's something they trust. And 322 00:14:42,410 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: it's actually translated into more gold usage in the formal 323 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,020 Speaker 2: financial system in Turkey as well, 324 00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:49,380 Speaker 1: where else where else do we see huge gold holdings? 325 00:14:49,390 --> 00:14:51,450 Speaker 2: So India of course, you know, there's a lot of 326 00:14:51,450 --> 00:14:54,100 Speaker 2: household gold as jewelry of course, but it can be 327 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:56,260 Speaker 2: pawned and used as a financial asset when needed. I 328 00:14:56,270 --> 00:14:59,980 Speaker 2: think in Southeast Asia countries like Vietnam for instance, there 329 00:14:59,980 --> 00:15:02,270 Speaker 2: was a lot of personal gold holding as well. And 330 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:02,330 Speaker 2: we 331 00:15:02,340 --> 00:15:05,060 Speaker 2: we definitely see gold's role in this as a way 332 00:15:05,060 --> 00:15:08,210 Speaker 2: for many households at the very bottom rung of the 333 00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:11,990 Speaker 2: socioeconomic ladder to get access to the financial system because 334 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: they may not have access to formal banking, but they 335 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: trust gold. And how do we marry these two factors together. 336 00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: It's something we're exploring a lot of the world Gold 337 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: council in that how can gold play more of a 338 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,470 Speaker 2: role in financial inclusion in these emerging markets? 339 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,810 Speaker 1: The chinese are also big purchases and 340 00:15:27,810 --> 00:15:30,290 Speaker 2: holders of gold. Absolutely china I think is the largest 341 00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:33,570 Speaker 2: single consumer market for gold right now jewelry, but also 342 00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:36,260 Speaker 2: in terms of investment bars and coins to their very 343 00:15:36,260 --> 00:15:37,460 Speaker 2: big factor in the market. 344 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,930 Speaker 1: This advent of financial, technology driven wealth trading platforms that 345 00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: we have seen proliferate and we talked about the trade 346 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,030 Speaker 1: earlier are Reese 347 00:15:46,043 --> 00:15:49,173 Speaker 1: seeing Fintech entering the gold area. So instead of holding 348 00:15:49,173 --> 00:15:52,853 Speaker 1: bunches physical gold, you can actually trade gold through various 349 00:15:52,853 --> 00:15:53,173 Speaker 1: fintech 350 00:15:53,173 --> 00:15:55,433 Speaker 2: means there's a lot of startups that are trying to 351 00:15:55,433 --> 00:15:58,623 Speaker 2: explore stable coins based on gold for instance startups that 352 00:15:58,623 --> 00:16:02,993 Speaker 2: explore how to facilitate better or easier gold trading. So 353 00:16:02,993 --> 00:16:05,493 Speaker 2: the entire ecosystem in the startup community, I think they're 354 00:16:05,493 --> 00:16:06,310 Speaker 2: all looking at ways 355 00:16:06,326 --> 00:16:09,176 Speaker 2: make gold part of that conversation as well. 356 00:16:09,516 --> 00:16:12,706 Speaker 1: I saw a startup in South Asia recently where they 357 00:16:12,706 --> 00:16:16,356 Speaker 1: have a little icon in your phone you touch it 358 00:16:16,486 --> 00:16:19,406 Speaker 1: for even $5, you can start owning a fraction of 359 00:16:19,406 --> 00:16:21,396 Speaker 1: a coin and they show it on the screen as 360 00:16:21,396 --> 00:16:24,336 Speaker 1: you keep on adding. And because of the fintech pipe 361 00:16:24,336 --> 00:16:26,606 Speaker 1: that they have you can use that to send 362 00:16:26,770 --> 00:16:29,820 Speaker 1: You know 1/100 of an ounce of gold to a 363 00:16:29,830 --> 00:16:33,980 Speaker 1: kid for his birthday save or find ways to monetize it. 364 00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:34,820 Speaker 1: Which I thought was very 365 00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:36,750 Speaker 2: very interesting that in china to some of the major 366 00:16:36,750 --> 00:16:39,580 Speaker 2: payments platforms there you can send grains of gold to 367 00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: each other, you can you can buy grains of gold 368 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,310 Speaker 2: so that's quite interesting defined grain. I don't know what 369 00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:47,140 Speaker 2: the official definition in this but they showed me a picture, 370 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:48,570 Speaker 2: it's just a tiny little speck of 371 00:16:48,580 --> 00:16:50,650 Speaker 1: gold. Yeah there we go. 372 00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:54,950 Speaker 1: Um I checked out the website of yours and I 373 00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:56,900 Speaker 1: saw a couple of things that I thought we should 374 00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:00,650 Speaker 1: talk about. So tell us about the responsible gold mining principle. 375 00:17:00,660 --> 00:17:03,690 Speaker 2: Sure. Um The world gold council is absolutely committed to 376 00:17:03,690 --> 00:17:07,780 Speaker 2: making the gold market more transparent, more trustable uh and 377 00:17:07,780 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: more accessible to the wider audience. And one of the 378 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,610 Speaker 2: ways we want to do that is to make sure 379 00:17:11,609 --> 00:17:14,270 Speaker 2: that people can access gold and know that that gold 380 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:15,940 Speaker 2: was sourced in a responsible way. 381 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: So the responsible gold mining principles is something we developed 382 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: a few years back, it's actually a framework to know 383 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,979 Speaker 2: that all the gold that's entering the supply chain was 384 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:26,970 Speaker 2: sourced responsibly. And we actually ask all of our member 385 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:29,340 Speaker 2: companies to adopt the R. G. M. P. S as 386 00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:33,230 Speaker 2: part of their membership process. Um it's been enacted for 387 00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:34,780 Speaker 2: a few years now, I think we've gotten a lot 388 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: of good traction with it and it's part of a 389 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,350 Speaker 2: larger initiative that we're calling gold to 47 to really 390 00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:45,550 Speaker 2: make sure the gold market is sustainable and and continues 391 00:17:45,550 --> 00:17:48,940 Speaker 2: to be a major part of the financial discussion going forward. 392 00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:54,500 Speaker 1: Very interesting. And is the notion of conflict free gold 393 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: standard related to this, or is a subset of that? 394 00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: So 395 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,050 Speaker 2: That was an older standard that we developed in, I 396 00:17:59,050 --> 00:18:02,220 Speaker 2: think 2012, also in concert with the gold mining industry, 397 00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:04,889 Speaker 2: where to use a crude analogy, it was kind of 398 00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:05,570 Speaker 2: like the Kimberley 399 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: process for diamonds, where we wanted to ensure that the 400 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,010 Speaker 2: goal that you bought was not used to fuel conflict 401 00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:14,060 Speaker 2: or unrest in in certain markets. And that also got, 402 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:16,940 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of signatories and kind of was 403 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:18,780 Speaker 2: the beginning of a lot of our work in standard 404 00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:21,330 Speaker 2: setting and helping to create guidance for the industry. 405 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,020 Speaker 1: So when you say signatories, are you talking about corporate 406 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:25,350 Speaker 1: or you're talking about sovereign countries? 407 00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:27,060 Speaker 2: Corporates, gold mining companies. 408 00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: So as long as they are abiding by certain principles 409 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,020 Speaker 1: and standards, it's basically 410 00:18:32,530 --> 00:18:34,180 Speaker 1: at the country level is going to be the case 411 00:18:34,180 --> 00:18:36,590 Speaker 1: because their dominant players in the country. We 412 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: also work with governments and central banks on these topics 413 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,129 Speaker 2: to one interesting aspect of the central bank story on 414 00:18:42,130 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: gold has been the emergence of a lot of domestic 415 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,050 Speaker 2: gold buying where the central bank acts as the largest 416 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:50,890 Speaker 2: or the soul off taker in many markets of domestic 417 00:18:50,890 --> 00:18:51,689 Speaker 2: gold production. 418 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: And therefore they're able to have outsized power in promoting 419 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,530 Speaker 2: regulation promoting responsible mining principles to their local gold mining 420 00:19:00,530 --> 00:19:02,350 Speaker 2: industry because they're the only buyer, they are the only 421 00:19:02,350 --> 00:19:04,060 Speaker 2: legal buyer in that case. How 422 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: interesting is that? The case in South Africa, 423 00:19:06,130 --> 00:19:08,620 Speaker 2: South Africa had such a program I think a couple 424 00:19:08,619 --> 00:19:11,530 Speaker 2: of decades before it's been dormant since. But we've seen 425 00:19:11,540 --> 00:19:14,550 Speaker 2: these type of gold buying programs active in the Philippines 426 00:19:14,690 --> 00:19:18,670 Speaker 2: in Mongolia recently in many african latin american countries to 427 00:19:18,670 --> 00:19:21,659 Speaker 2: they've been starting up these processes because it's beneficial for 428 00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: the central bank instead of paying for gold with us dollars. 429 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,930 Speaker 2: So exchanging one reserve asset for another, they can pay 430 00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:30,270 Speaker 2: for golden and local currency. They can basically buy a 431 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: reserve asset 432 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: um and added to their reserves. And at the same 433 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,410 Speaker 2: time we see this as a conduit for us to 434 00:19:35,410 --> 00:19:38,430 Speaker 2: use the central bank's power in the market to disseminate 435 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: these best practices on E. S. G. On responsible 436 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,630 Speaker 1: sourcing. That's fantastic. Okay I was not aware of this. 437 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: Very good. We will talk about central bank purchases a 438 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:46,690 Speaker 1: little later and more 439 00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: Islamic finance and gold. It's a bit of a niche 440 00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:51,770 Speaker 1: area but I think you guys have been involved 441 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:54,750 Speaker 2: there. Yeah, we created the Sharia standard on gold I 442 00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:57,830 Speaker 2: think in 2016 or so. And I think it's really 443 00:19:57,830 --> 00:20:01,550 Speaker 2: helped to clarify what's permissible, what's usable about gold and 444 00:20:01,550 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: Islamic context and what's great is that, you know, the 445 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: Islamic finance sector is missing a true safe haven asset. 446 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 2: Most of the safe haven assets and conventional finance are 447 00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:13,310 Speaker 2: interest bearing government bonds and then you 448 00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:16,330 Speaker 1: have to reverse structure to make sure our compliance exactly 449 00:20:16,330 --> 00:20:18,460 Speaker 2: if they make it to cook. Um, and there are 450 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:20,530 Speaker 2: sovereign so cooks out there. But the issue is that 451 00:20:20,530 --> 00:20:23,389 Speaker 2: countries like Malaysia for instance, that aren't no, not double 452 00:20:23,390 --> 00:20:26,510 Speaker 2: or triple a the same safe haven assets that conventional 453 00:20:26,510 --> 00:20:28,770 Speaker 2: finance has access to. But by making gold 454 00:20:28,859 --> 00:20:32,230 Speaker 2: accessible to Islamic investors were basically opening, opening up a 455 00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:35,260 Speaker 2: very large and liquid market for them to use as 456 00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: a safe haven or for other purposes. And I think 457 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,310 Speaker 2: introduced a new element of safety into the Islamic finance 458 00:20:41,310 --> 00:20:43,830 Speaker 2: market because they didn't have such a safe haven before. 459 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,910 Speaker 1: Right, actually going back to your website, I talked some 460 00:20:46,910 --> 00:20:50,230 Speaker 1: of the work that you guys have done there is terrific. Alright, 461 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,730 Speaker 1: demand site. Sure. We've already touched on jewelry, a bit electronics. 462 00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:57,540 Speaker 1: Central bank a bit. So put it all together for me, 463 00:20:57,690 --> 00:21:01,770 Speaker 1: How has gold demand among all these different actors evolved 464 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:03,700 Speaker 1: over the last say decade or two. 465 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:07,030 Speaker 2: Sure, it's been actually a tremendous evolution leading to really 466 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: structurally higher demand for gold in the last one or 467 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,230 Speaker 2: two decades. 468 00:21:10,420 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: Um one major aspect as you said, is jewelry demand 469 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 2: specifically coming from India and China, but because these two 470 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,750 Speaker 2: markets have grown so significantly, both in terms of GDP 471 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,109 Speaker 2: but also the purchasing power at the individual level. The 472 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,550 Speaker 2: I think they've tripled in terms of their their consumer 473 00:21:26,550 --> 00:21:31,550 Speaker 2: gold demand between 1992 and 2022, according to our 30-year report. 474 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: So they've been a major factor in generating higher levels 475 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,350 Speaker 2: of sustainable and transformative structural demand for gold. 476 00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:41,070 Speaker 2: Another major change has been E. T. F. Like I said, 477 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,070 Speaker 2: um you know, before they were invented, the average investor 478 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,030 Speaker 2: probably even if they wanted to invest in gold, you know, 479 00:21:47,030 --> 00:21:50,180 Speaker 2: there were certain stumbling blocks or certain impediments of them 480 00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:51,950 Speaker 2: getting access, but the E. T. F. S have just 481 00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:54,780 Speaker 2: made gold investing that much easier and they've also grown 482 00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:57,070 Speaker 2: significantly in size. The third major 483 00:21:57,369 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 2: Change has been the shift of central banks from net 484 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,350 Speaker 2: sellers after the end of the Bretton Woods system in 485 00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:06,820 Speaker 2: the 1970s to net buyers after the 2008 financial crisis. 486 00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:09,929 Speaker 2: So basically for the last 13 years or so, central 487 00:22:09,930 --> 00:22:12,850 Speaker 2: banks have been net buyers of gold with almost all 488 00:22:12,850 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: of that buying coming coming from emerging-market central banks 489 00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: in the Middle Eastern and central banks and wealth funds, 490 00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:20,950 Speaker 1: are they the biggest buyer or is it really the 491 00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:23,140 Speaker 1: chinese and the indian central bank, the 492 00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 2: single largest central bank buyer has been Russia china has 493 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,540 Speaker 2: been number two. The Middle Eastern central banks have been 494 00:22:28,540 --> 00:22:31,940 Speaker 2: active especially last year. We saw purchases coming from Egypt 495 00:22:31,950 --> 00:22:34,420 Speaker 2: from Iraq from the U. A. E. From Qatar. So 496 00:22:34,420 --> 00:22:36,460 Speaker 2: they're active as well. But it's actually been quite a 497 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:41,149 Speaker 2: broad phenomenon in terms of geographic diversity, diversity of economic type, 498 00:22:41,150 --> 00:22:44,300 Speaker 2: diversity of the currency regime. The central bank runs, 499 00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:48,010 Speaker 2: we've seen buying from the likes of Thailand from brazil 500 00:22:48,020 --> 00:22:51,530 Speaker 2: um from from south Korea maybe about 10 years ago 501 00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:54,909 Speaker 2: India as I mentioned, added gold. The central asian countries 502 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: the stands, they've also been very active as well. Even 503 00:22:57,570 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: this country Singapore, the M. A. S. Added gold I 504 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: think in 2021 which was you know one of the 505 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,810 Speaker 2: rare occasions where a developed market added gold post 2008. 506 00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: You and I had a conversation a few weeks ago 507 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,109 Speaker 1: where you said that if I were to just go 508 00:23:11,109 --> 00:23:14,340 Speaker 1: to the website and look at central bank reserves data 509 00:23:14,350 --> 00:23:16,730 Speaker 1: of which there is a breakdown for gold. I would 510 00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: not be capturing all the gold that was purchased last 511 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,500 Speaker 1: year the year before. So tell me a bit about 512 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,650 Speaker 1: your data generating process and why is it different from 513 00:23:23,650 --> 00:23:24,900 Speaker 1: what the central banks are reporting. 514 00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:27,830 Speaker 2: So this is a very good point because we actually 515 00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: reported the highest level of central bank buying ever in 2022, collectively, 516 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,330 Speaker 2: they bought 1100 tons on a net basis. 517 00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:38,850 Speaker 2: Um of which a big portion of our own calculation, 518 00:23:38,850 --> 00:23:42,190 Speaker 2: it says it's from unreported buying. So there is the I. M. F. 519 00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:45,670 Speaker 2: Official statistics, which central banks they populate every month, they 520 00:23:45,670 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 2: update a spreadsheet set into the I. M. F. But 521 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: it may not be the most accurate or real time 522 00:23:50,530 --> 00:23:54,260 Speaker 2: picture of what's happening in official sector. Gold holdings. There 523 00:23:54,260 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: are many 524 00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:57,940 Speaker 2: that report with a lag for various reasons. Other central 525 00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:01,940 Speaker 2: banks have started stopped reporting altogether. Afghanistan has not reported 526 00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:05,129 Speaker 2: since the Taliban takeover. Russia has stopped reporting since the 527 00:24:05,130 --> 00:24:07,179 Speaker 2: beginning of the war in Ukraine. And they've even passed 528 00:24:07,180 --> 00:24:09,889 Speaker 2: a new law now saying that their official sector gold 529 00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: holdings are state secrets. So I don't think we'll be 530 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,890 Speaker 2: hearing from them any time soon. But you know, there's 531 00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:17,050 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons for countries to have either lack 532 00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 2: for those 533 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,630 Speaker 1: buyers, even if they're unreported, there's a cellar. 534 00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:24,420 Speaker 2: So yeah, there's a cellar. But probably coming from the 535 00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:27,730 Speaker 2: otC market are coming from newly minted gold, newly mined gold, 536 00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: I should say. Um it's not necessarily one central bank 537 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,350 Speaker 2: selling to another or, you know, the investor community selling 538 00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 2: out in a central bank buying. It's 539 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,430 Speaker 1: hard to track that information. 540 00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:39,490 Speaker 2: We don't know where every specific ounce, you know, they're 541 00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: buying is coming from, whether it's, you know, a newly 542 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,369 Speaker 2: mined gold or some existing gold stock. But overall the 543 00:24:44,369 --> 00:24:46,260 Speaker 2: pictures that central banks have added 544 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: a significant amount of gold last 545 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,180 Speaker 1: Year. And the number that you pointed out a little 546 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:52,220 Speaker 1: over 1000 tons. That would be much more than what 547 00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:57,430 Speaker 1: the IMF data would suggest. Very interesting. Um so let's 548 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,550 Speaker 1: take stock of these two years since we talked about 549 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:02,590 Speaker 1: gold back in 2022. Now. 550 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,010 Speaker 1: Um The pandemic, you were talking earlier about how when 551 00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:09,550 Speaker 1: there is substantial risk aversion in the market, gold comes 552 00:25:09,550 --> 00:25:11,510 Speaker 1: back to play. So how did it come back to 553 00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: play in the last couple of years? The 554 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 2: pandemic impacted the gold price. Of course the price hit 555 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,629 Speaker 2: a record high in 2020 in dollar terms the combination 556 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:21,020 Speaker 2: of monetary easing from central banks but also a lot 557 00:25:21,020 --> 00:25:24,310 Speaker 2: of fiscal stimulus to support people during the pandemic that 558 00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: really made the gold price rally signify 559 00:25:26,830 --> 00:25:29,100 Speaker 2: and saw a lot of inflows into gold E. T. F. 560 00:25:29,330 --> 00:25:32,010 Speaker 2: But on the flip side there was a big drop 561 00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:36,630 Speaker 2: in gold jewelry demand as jewelry shops closed, entire economies closed. 562 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:39,500 Speaker 2: Especially the largest economies for gold jewelry demand china and 563 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: India they all had you know either long or short lockdowns. 564 00:25:42,530 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: So that did impact the physical gold market. Although the 565 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,530 Speaker 2: price was elevated because of all the inflows into E. T. S. 566 00:25:48,530 --> 00:25:52,949 Speaker 2: And financial investment. There are also some dislocations in the 567 00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: supply chain. 568 00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 2: Um Not so much at the mine site per se, 569 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,660 Speaker 2: but really, you know, because global supply chains were disrupted, 570 00:25:59,670 --> 00:26:04,090 Speaker 2: flights were more scarce. It caused greater disparities in the 571 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,300 Speaker 2: regional gold price is the price of gold in different 572 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: regional markets. Um So that was overcome, that was fixed 573 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,850 Speaker 2: shortly thereafter, but it did cause you know, a bit 574 00:26:12,850 --> 00:26:13,900 Speaker 2: of a disruption. Then 575 00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:17,660 Speaker 1: you run the central bank desk at World Gold Council. 576 00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:19,510 Speaker 1: So obviously you have a lot of conversations with central 577 00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:23,130 Speaker 1: bank asset managers. This phenomenon over the last few years 578 00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:25,340 Speaker 1: which is independent of the pandemic, which is the weaponization 579 00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: of the U. S. Dollar. We saw the US seizing 580 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: the Central bank of Afghanistan's assets and the U. S. 581 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: And other areas. Now we have seen major seizures for 582 00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:37,649 Speaker 1: the Russian Central bank's assets. So in your conversations, do 583 00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:39,350 Speaker 1: you feel that central banks are 584 00:26:39,710 --> 00:26:43,940 Speaker 1: taking those developments into account in their gold buying strategy? 585 00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 2: Yes. In no uncertain terms. Yes, they are looking at 586 00:26:48,410 --> 00:26:51,740 Speaker 2: the impact of a changing political risk environment. Not to 587 00:26:51,740 --> 00:26:53,530 Speaker 2: say that they believe that they will have the same 588 00:26:53,530 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 2: type of direct confrontation in the west that Russia has had. 589 00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:59,810 Speaker 2: But they do recognize that the calculate 590 00:26:59,980 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: political risk is not quite what it was before. I think, 591 00:27:03,810 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned Afghanistan. Um The case of that 592 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,890 Speaker 2: was the U. S. Didn't recognize the Taliban government as 593 00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: the rightful government of Afghanistan and said only the rightful 594 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: government can access the Afghan central bank's reserves in the US. 595 00:27:15,390 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: In the case of Russia though, it wasn't a case 596 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,950 Speaker 2: of saying, we don't recognize the Moscow government, 597 00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:22,630 Speaker 2: it's that we don't agree with your your policy decision 598 00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:25,619 Speaker 2: to invade Ukraine, rightly or wrongly so. Right. But that 599 00:27:25,630 --> 00:27:28,510 Speaker 2: is a new reason, a new rationale. So, whereas many 600 00:27:28,510 --> 00:27:31,780 Speaker 2: central banks thought that their reserve assets that were jurisdictions 601 00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:35,910 Speaker 2: overseas were basically sovereign assets that had sovereign immunity. The 602 00:27:35,910 --> 00:27:37,570 Speaker 2: case has shown that they are not and that they 603 00:27:37,570 --> 00:27:38,380 Speaker 2: can be frozen. 604 00:27:39,550 --> 00:27:42,010 Speaker 1: Yeah, if I were a central bank that is not 605 00:27:42,010 --> 00:27:45,580 Speaker 1: in history, the core of the Western sort of, you know, 606 00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:48,220 Speaker 1: circle of protection. You know, I would also no question 607 00:27:48,220 --> 00:27:51,730 Speaker 1: about that earlier, you talked about gold rallying hard in 608 00:27:51,730 --> 00:27:56,130 Speaker 1: 2020 around, you know, concerns about the pandemic zero rates 609 00:27:56,130 --> 00:28:00,419 Speaker 1: and so on. Now. In late 2022 concerns around the 610 00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:04,149 Speaker 1: pandemic was adding interest rates were soaring and then gold 611 00:28:04,150 --> 00:28:05,650 Speaker 1: had a rally what's up? 612 00:28:05,910 --> 00:28:09,030 Speaker 2: So we saw that at that period, specifically Central Western 613 00:28:09,030 --> 00:28:11,649 Speaker 2: central banks, I think assessed that inflation had more or 614 00:28:11,650 --> 00:28:12,330 Speaker 2: less peaked. 615 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,129 Speaker 2: And they were saying that they're they're they're tightening cycles 616 00:28:15,130 --> 00:28:17,700 Speaker 2: were coming to an end or we're going to moderate. 617 00:28:17,710 --> 00:28:21,470 Speaker 2: So I think gold responded to that by rallying because 618 00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:23,870 Speaker 2: I think that removed one of the big headwinds of gold, 619 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,330 Speaker 2: You know, interest rates, obviously with gold not being a 620 00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:29,810 Speaker 2: coupon bearing asset are usually a headwind for gold also, 621 00:28:29,810 --> 00:28:31,620 Speaker 2: at the same time you have to recall that nominal 622 00:28:31,619 --> 00:28:33,790 Speaker 2: rates might have been rising, but real rates actually have 623 00:28:33,790 --> 00:28:36,420 Speaker 2: not risen that much. So I think that was still 624 00:28:36,420 --> 00:28:38,660 Speaker 2: a strong incentive for people to hold gold because real 625 00:28:38,660 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: rates were still very low. 626 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: Also, there's the backdrop of what you're saying before, the 627 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,090 Speaker 2: geopolitical tensions, the war in Ukraine, this, this uncertainty brought 628 00:28:46,090 --> 00:28:50,130 Speaker 2: by international conflict, I think that might have been some factor, 629 00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:52,310 Speaker 2: certainly in the minds of maybe some of the central 630 00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:55,380 Speaker 2: bank investors, but maybe institutional retail investors as well for 631 00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:58,170 Speaker 2: them to consider upping their gold allocations. 632 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: Right? Looking at the report on the 30 years of 633 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,540 Speaker 1: gold trend as well as the last couple of years, 634 00:29:04,540 --> 00:29:06,870 Speaker 1: you know, experience with all these global volatility. 635 00:29:07,660 --> 00:29:10,630 Speaker 1: Am I correct in thinking that gold is a better 636 00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:12,790 Speaker 1: hedge against your politics than inflation? 637 00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:16,570 Speaker 2: So, you know, we've done research on both. You know, 638 00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:20,500 Speaker 2: golden gold is traditionally considered a hedge hedge against inflation, 639 00:29:20,510 --> 00:29:23,370 Speaker 2: but we've actually seen that during periods of either stagflation 640 00:29:23,370 --> 00:29:27,550 Speaker 2: or hyperinflation, where it performs well on the geopolitical side, 641 00:29:27,550 --> 00:29:29,489 Speaker 2: I think we did an assessment where we looked at 642 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:32,330 Speaker 2: every episode of geopolitical risk in the last 30 years 643 00:29:32,340 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: and we saw what gold's average performance was at risk 644 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: day minus 92 risk day plus 90 645 00:29:38,450 --> 00:29:40,980 Speaker 2: and it did overall have an impact like it would 646 00:29:40,980 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: go up during periods of geopolitical risk, but usually it 647 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,060 Speaker 2: wouldn't be a sustained impact, it would stay, it would 648 00:29:46,060 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: stay elevated for, you know, a few weeks after the 649 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,260 Speaker 2: risk incident happened and then it would taper off. Um 650 00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:53,790 Speaker 2: unfortunately this this war in Ukraine has now gone on 651 00:29:53,790 --> 00:29:57,090 Speaker 2: for a year. It's disrupted many aspects of life and 652 00:29:57,090 --> 00:30:00,110 Speaker 2: I think it's really come it's really made policymakers question 653 00:30:00,110 --> 00:30:02,940 Speaker 2: about is this type of threat going to broaden? Are 654 00:30:02,940 --> 00:30:05,610 Speaker 2: we going to look at geopolitical conflicts in Asia now 655 00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:06,430 Speaker 2: for instance. 656 00:30:06,590 --> 00:30:08,700 Speaker 2: So I think that's added to a lot of concern 657 00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:11,410 Speaker 2: and maybe created more incentive for people to consider 658 00:30:11,410 --> 00:30:14,150 Speaker 1: gold. I think I was remiss in not following up 659 00:30:14,150 --> 00:30:16,570 Speaker 1: on an earlier question when we're talking about the responsible 660 00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:21,330 Speaker 1: gold mining principle, could you elaborate on the dimension of that? 661 00:30:21,340 --> 00:30:24,670 Speaker 2: Sure. So there's 10 specific principles as part of the 662 00:30:24,670 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: R G. M. P. S. I think there's either three 663 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:27,570 Speaker 2: or 664 00:30:27,580 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: for each one each for environmental, one, for social, three 665 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,219 Speaker 2: or four each for environmental, social and governance. And they're 666 00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 2: basically very high level principles that state what these mining 667 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,010 Speaker 2: companies should be should be doing to make sure that 668 00:30:41,010 --> 00:30:44,020 Speaker 2: they're compliant with these principles overall, then it gets into 669 00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: quite a lot more detail. Each principle has sub principles 670 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,580 Speaker 2: and clauses and things like that. 671 00:30:48,790 --> 00:30:50,979 Speaker 2: So, you know, I can't remember all of them off 672 00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:53,050 Speaker 2: the top of my head, but it's quite comprehensive, 673 00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:56,370 Speaker 1: maybe just on the part. So put the smg as 674 00:30:56,370 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: I mean just for my general knowledge is gold are 675 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: very polluting activity. The mining and 676 00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:03,470 Speaker 2: processing. So you know, there's a lot of work that's 677 00:31:03,470 --> 00:31:06,830 Speaker 2: required to go into gold mining and our member companies, 678 00:31:06,830 --> 00:31:08,330 Speaker 2: the ones that have signed on to the R. G. M. P. 679 00:31:08,330 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: S have all stipulated to using the most advanced and 680 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,510 Speaker 2: the best practices for sourcing gold. But as I mentioned before, 681 00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:17,930 Speaker 2: they're not the only members of the gold supply chain. 682 00:31:17,930 --> 00:31:18,390 Speaker 2: So 683 00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:21,130 Speaker 2: in in periods in past periods have been issues with 684 00:31:21,130 --> 00:31:24,190 Speaker 2: using mercury for instance, and other harmful chemicals and that's 685 00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: something we really want to to stamp out. 686 00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: Um so part of the work we're doing with central 687 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: banks for instance, is because they're buying usually from these 688 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,490 Speaker 2: small scale miners. They can therefore be a conduit of 689 00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: disseminating rules, regulations best practices to these small scale miners 690 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,550 Speaker 2: and saying if you use harmful products or if you 691 00:31:43,550 --> 00:31:46,380 Speaker 2: source your gold irresponsibly, we won't buy from you. And 692 00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: guess what were the only buyer in this country? 693 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,410 Speaker 2: So if you don't shape up, no one's going to 694 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: buy your product 695 00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:57,020 Speaker 1: basically Good. A nice stick approach. Alright, shock. I such 696 00:31:57,030 --> 00:31:58,900 Speaker 1: a treat to talk to you about the gold market 697 00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:00,930 Speaker 1: and there are so many arcane aspects, but you make 698 00:32:00,930 --> 00:32:01,940 Speaker 1: it sound so 699 00:32:01,940 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: clear. I was a treat to talk to you tomorrow. 700 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,100 Speaker 2: Thank you. 701 00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: Thank you. And thanks to our listeners as well Kobe 702 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,500 Speaker 1: time was produced by ken del Bridge from Spy Studios 703 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,020 Speaker 1: daisy Sharma and violently 704 00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:14,780 Speaker 1: provided additional assistance. Copy time is for information only and 705 00:32:14,780 --> 00:32:18,670 Speaker 1: does not constitute any investment advice. All 95 episodes of 706 00:32:18,670 --> 00:32:21,860 Speaker 1: our podcast are available on Youtube, as well as on 707 00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:25,730 Speaker 1: major podcast platforms, including Apple, google and Spotify. As for 708 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:29,050 Speaker 1: our research products, including our publications and webinars. You can 709 00:32:29,050 --> 00:32:32,250 Speaker 1: find them all by googling DBS Research Library. Have a 710 00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:32,900 Speaker 1: great day.