1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,830 Speaker 1: Welcome to Covid Time, a podcast series on markets and 2 00:00:08,830 --> 00:00:12,140 Speaker 1: economies from DBS group research. I'm Tamar Beck, chief economist 3 00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: coming to you from the sidelines of the 2022 Singapore 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,870 Speaker 1: Fintech festival. I'm honored to introduce our guest dr Stuart 5 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:19,430 Speaker 1: Haber 6 00:00:19,570 --> 00:00:24,070 Speaker 1: As a cryptographer at Belcourt in 1990. Dr. Hebert who 7 00:00:24,070 --> 00:00:27,370 Speaker 1: invented the Blockchain technique for ensuring the integrity of digital records. 8 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:31,380 Speaker 1: He was co founder with Scott to of Surety, which 9 00:00:31,380 --> 00:00:35,490 Speaker 1: was funded from Belcourt in 1993. Surety offered digital time 10 00:00:35,490 --> 00:00:39,030 Speaker 1: stamping services and was the first commercial deployment of a Blockchain. 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,930 Speaker 1: Dr Haber's work in cryptographic time stamping was later adopted 12 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:46,940 Speaker 1: by Satoshi Nakamoto as the basic mechanism for data integrity 13 00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: in Bitcoin Stuart Haber. Welcome to Covid 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,630 Speaker 2: Time. My pleasure to be here. 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,910 Speaker 1: It's great to have you if you permit me, let's 16 00:00:54,910 --> 00:00:57,610 Speaker 1: travel back in time all the way back to the 17 00:00:57,620 --> 00:01:02,050 Speaker 1: early 1990s, your paper with Scott to how to time 18 00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:03,750 Speaker 1: stamp a digital document. 19 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:08,110 Speaker 1: What problem and motivation drove the work and what use 20 00:01:08,110 --> 00:01:10,390 Speaker 1: cases did you have in mind. Way back then you 21 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:15,610 Speaker 2: Summarized the problem very well. In the pleasant introduction you 22 00:01:15,610 --> 00:01:19,089 Speaker 2: just gave Scott Stern Etta and I were young researchers 23 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:20,860 Speaker 2: well 30 years ago, so 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,729 Speaker 2: 30 years younger than we both are now at Belk 25 00:01:23,730 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: or Bell communications research, which at that time was the 26 00:01:28,290 --> 00:01:33,949 Speaker 2: only recently established Bell labs for the local phone companies 27 00:01:33,950 --> 00:01:37,110 Speaker 2: which had recently been broken up by a big antitrust 28 00:01:37,110 --> 00:01:41,750 Speaker 2: settlement Ma Bell as those of a certain age still say. 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,449 Speaker 2: And we had ridiculous research freedom. 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,100 Speaker 2: I've been there a couple of years working as a 31 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: research cryptographer and scott's jonetta had just been hired. He 32 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,780 Speaker 2: went around meeting people and we hit it off nicely 33 00:01:57,790 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: and he said, 34 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:01,100 Speaker 2: I've got a problem for you 35 00:02:01,630 --> 00:02:05,540 Speaker 2: And I think cryptography might help us solve it. Are 36 00:02:05,540 --> 00:02:08,220 Speaker 2: you interested? I said, I said well sure tell me 37 00:02:08,230 --> 00:02:10,149 Speaker 2: remember this is 89. 38 00:02:10,590 --> 00:02:14,310 Speaker 2: The internet certainly existed. You know, I I lived in 39 00:02:14,310 --> 00:02:18,250 Speaker 2: email and so on. But the World wide Web was 40 00:02:18,260 --> 00:02:22,580 Speaker 2: still in the future and I won't reminisce about what 41 00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: what we did that would now count as web crawling 42 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,989 Speaker 2: or web searching. Um in any case it certainly hadn't 43 00:02:28,990 --> 00:02:33,769 Speaker 2: happened yet. But the world was clearly moving online. Computer 44 00:02:33,770 --> 00:02:39,570 Speaker 2: files are famously easy to manipulate and change. 45 00:02:39,870 --> 00:02:44,130 Speaker 2: And we were worried about the integrity of all the 46 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 2: world's records. I mean history. Uh I don't remember whether 47 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,820 Speaker 2: we commonly use this historical analogy then. But the burning 48 00:02:52,820 --> 00:02:58,030 Speaker 2: of the library of alexandria um was destruction of records. 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,070 Speaker 2: But uh we were worried about all the world's records. 50 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:08,150 Speaker 2: Financial records, technical records, scientific and technical lab notebooks. 51 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,330 Speaker 2: But you know, email messages. I send you a message 52 00:03:11,330 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: saying let's have lunch at that deli tomorrow at two. 53 00:03:14,770 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: And um that's a message and you want to be 54 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,750 Speaker 2: sure if we know each other that it came from 55 00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: me and so on and hasn't been changed, especially if 56 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: there's an argument years later about whether we had lunch 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: that day. 58 00:03:27,970 --> 00:03:29,329 Speaker 1: That's when the time comes in. 59 00:03:29,340 --> 00:03:34,100 Speaker 2: Yes. So time stamping is a bit of a misleading 60 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:34,950 Speaker 2: description 61 00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:41,860 Speaker 2: because for most records, the exact microsecond of time stamping 62 00:03:41,870 --> 00:03:45,220 Speaker 2: matters considerably less than 63 00:03:46,180 --> 00:03:49,510 Speaker 2: an assurance that the record has not changed since then. 64 00:03:50,260 --> 00:03:53,870 Speaker 2: In the world of algorithms and strings of bits. 65 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:58,610 Speaker 2: The only way to ensure the integrity of records at all, 66 00:03:58,620 --> 00:04:01,510 Speaker 2: you just stop and think about it is that there 67 00:04:01,510 --> 00:04:04,970 Speaker 2: has to be a procedure for as it were registering 68 00:04:04,980 --> 00:04:05,750 Speaker 2: a record 69 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: and a digital record is not something like this business 70 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,510 Speaker 2: card you just gave me that I can write something 71 00:04:11,510 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: on or stamp. It's just a string of bits. So 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,460 Speaker 2: the result of the registration procedure has to be a 73 00:04:18,460 --> 00:04:23,090 Speaker 2: registration receipt of some kind, a bit string. And that 74 00:04:23,089 --> 00:04:28,370 Speaker 2: receipt is what we call back then a timestamp certificate. 75 00:04:28,380 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: And then there's also the registration and the receipts would 76 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: be completely useless without a procedure to verify them. 77 00:04:36,650 --> 00:04:39,570 Speaker 2: So here's this email message, let's have lunch at the 78 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:42,610 Speaker 2: deli on Tuesday and what's supposed to be 79 00:04:43,170 --> 00:04:46,650 Speaker 2: the timestamp certificate for exactly the string of bits. There 80 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:50,309 Speaker 2: has to be a way to check it efficiently quickly. 81 00:04:50,890 --> 00:04:56,700 Speaker 2: And that verification procedure would also be fairly useless if 82 00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: it were easy to forge things. 83 00:04:58,089 --> 00:05:02,150 Speaker 1: So I'm so curious about that entire process of thinking 84 00:05:02,150 --> 00:05:04,830 Speaker 1: about those things back in the late 80s and and 85 00:05:04,830 --> 00:05:09,460 Speaker 1: thinking about digital integrity and the sanctity of records now 86 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: today when we look back and we say, well, you know, 87 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: birth records or death records that sit in registry offices 88 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,940 Speaker 1: around the world. We see them as a river call records. 89 00:05:20,950 --> 00:05:23,150 Speaker 1: Pieces of paper if you will. But now of course 90 00:05:23,150 --> 00:05:26,060 Speaker 1: there's a digital element to that. But the idea these 91 00:05:26,060 --> 00:05:28,810 Speaker 1: days is that, you know, for developing countries where you 92 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:32,910 Speaker 1: don't have that well authenticated will attest that set of 93 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,170 Speaker 1: paper records. The digital one allows you to leapfrog into that. 94 00:05:36,350 --> 00:05:40,059 Speaker 1: Did you have that sort of inclusion arguments in mind 95 00:05:40,060 --> 00:05:41,500 Speaker 1: or were you trying to solve a problem for the 96 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:42,529 Speaker 1: first world at that? 97 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:47,530 Speaker 2: Oh no, no. I exchanged email with with scientists. Um 98 00:05:47,540 --> 00:05:52,210 Speaker 2: not in first World countries just talking about things and stranded. 99 00:05:52,210 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: And I were ambitious. We wanted to be able to 100 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,330 Speaker 2: ensure the integrity of all the world's records and we 101 00:05:59,330 --> 00:06:00,909 Speaker 2: worried about the longevity 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: of our assurances of integrity. And furthermore, just making the 103 00:06:06,570 --> 00:06:10,490 Speaker 2: problem harder, we wanted to be able to do this 104 00:06:10,490 --> 00:06:15,490 Speaker 2: without relying on a single central entity, a trusted authority. 105 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: You just gave the example of birth certificates, 106 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,310 Speaker 2: at least in the US we call it the birth record, 107 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,910 Speaker 2: the official birth records called birth certificate. There's an official 108 00:06:25,910 --> 00:06:28,970 Speaker 2: way to get one in order in fact, just to 109 00:06:28,970 --> 00:06:32,570 Speaker 2: renew my passport to come here last week, I needed 110 00:06:32,570 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 2: to go to the right government office in new york 111 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,020 Speaker 2: city where I was born and still happily live and 112 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: get a new copy of my birth certificate and original 113 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:44,550 Speaker 2: they called it. 114 00:06:45,060 --> 00:06:47,370 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to deal with that stuff to the 115 00:06:47,370 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: one with the little watermark in them. Okay, so 1991 116 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:54,150 Speaker 1: the paper comes out and I'm sure you go around 117 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: presenting it and it's in publication form. What was the 118 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,630 Speaker 1: initial reception both in the academic community as well as 119 00:07:01,630 --> 00:07:03,270 Speaker 1: say the private sector. 120 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,180 Speaker 2: The paper publication date that you see 121 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,990 Speaker 2: in the nice academic style reference in the Satoshi white 122 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: paper was the journal version of our paper in 91 123 00:07:14,370 --> 00:07:18,540 Speaker 2: we presented it at a conference called crypto back when 124 00:07:18,540 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: crypto meant 125 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:25,650 Speaker 2: cryptography or cryptology and nobody was going to pronounce the 126 00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: syllables Cryptocurrency for some decades on. So by the summer 127 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: of 1991 we had the complete solution that Satoshi adapted directly. 128 00:07:34,890 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: We didn't call collections of records blocks but we had 129 00:07:39,210 --> 00:07:43,460 Speaker 2: what in current terminology is blocks of what I described 130 00:07:43,460 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: a moment ago as registration requests 131 00:07:47,420 --> 00:07:51,870 Speaker 2: And built a hash linked chain of blocks. And we 132 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:57,540 Speaker 2: had experimental software running in October 1991. At first it 133 00:07:57,540 --> 00:07:59,810 Speaker 2: was just used by people around the lab who had 134 00:07:59,810 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: heard us talking about the project 135 00:08:02,830 --> 00:08:06,820 Speaker 2: and jumping ahead a couple of years as it turned out. 136 00:08:06,820 --> 00:08:11,710 Speaker 2: Bell communications research allowed scott and me to spin off 137 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,220 Speaker 2: a new enterprise called Surety that offered time stepping services. 138 00:08:16,230 --> 00:08:21,310 Speaker 2: We tried to interest financial institutions. We actually got some 139 00:08:21,310 --> 00:08:27,310 Speaker 2: customers for scientific and engineering lab notebooks but 140 00:08:27,490 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: the business for various reasons was not wildly successful. 141 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:35,850 Speaker 1: You're just way, way ahead of time. Okay. The chateau 142 00:08:35,850 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: she paper comes out we get a little more than 143 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,470 Speaker 1: a decade and a half between your concept paper 144 00:08:41,670 --> 00:08:45,950 Speaker 1: and no major practical application or use case in the 145 00:08:45,950 --> 00:08:46,830 Speaker 1: Fintech world. 146 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: We certainly talked to people at banks but we got 147 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,330 Speaker 2: no we got no no takers 148 00:08:51,550 --> 00:08:55,050 Speaker 1: and then this mysterious entity which we don't know who 149 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:56,349 Speaker 1: he is or she is 150 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: or they were 151 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,939 Speaker 1: or they were exactly or maybe you were part of them. 152 00:08:59,950 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: But it comes out. What was your reaction? 153 00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:07,250 Speaker 2: So as some of your audience may remember, Satoshi is 154 00:09:07,250 --> 00:09:11,510 Speaker 2: white paper was first posted to cryptographers mailing list which 155 00:09:11,510 --> 00:09:15,140 Speaker 2: in fact was historically descended from mailing list of the 156 00:09:15,140 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: so called cipher punks. I was a subscriber to the 157 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,309 Speaker 2: list Now I didn't read it all the way every 158 00:09:22,309 --> 00:09:26,950 Speaker 2: message every day. But Satoshi paper led to a bunch 159 00:09:26,950 --> 00:09:31,980 Speaker 2: of discussions on the list. Once the software was released 160 00:09:32,420 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: In January 2009 161 00:09:34,910 --> 00:09:37,820 Speaker 2: people were talking not only about the technical aspects of 162 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:40,310 Speaker 2: how it works, but the code, why don't you add 163 00:09:40,309 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: this feature or that feature and so on. So somebody 164 00:09:44,130 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: I don't remember who first said, hey Stuart, have you 165 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,870 Speaker 2: looked at this paper? Um they're using your work 166 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: and I read the paper, I was still working as 167 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:01,180 Speaker 2: a professional cryptographer. Several jobs down down the line from 168 00:10:01,179 --> 00:10:06,910 Speaker 2: Bell core. And I saw that Satoshi was using our 169 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,630 Speaker 2: time stepping technique and in fact used the words time 170 00:10:10,630 --> 00:10:14,940 Speaker 2: stamping server in the paper, Satoshi was using it in 171 00:10:14,950 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: exactly the way we intended 172 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:22,260 Speaker 2: to ensure the integrity of the financial transactions in this 173 00:10:22,270 --> 00:10:26,510 Speaker 2: miraculous system that he devised it 174 00:10:26,510 --> 00:10:30,010 Speaker 1: was of course, pretty impressive and transformational. Did you feel 175 00:10:30,010 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: it was going to be transformational immediately? I 176 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 2: read it quickly when a colleague said oh you should 177 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,090 Speaker 2: look at this. I said huh, nice use of our 178 00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:39,710 Speaker 2: old time stepping stuff. 179 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,610 Speaker 2: It could take off the well known in the States 180 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:49,030 Speaker 2: science journalist john Markoff, he used to cover Silicon Valley 181 00:10:49,030 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: for the new york Times. The high tech world in general. 182 00:10:51,929 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: He wrote an article in the new york times about 183 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:55,980 Speaker 2: our technology, 184 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,150 Speaker 2: An article that appeared in 92 or thereabouts when he 185 00:11:00,150 --> 00:11:03,010 Speaker 2: would come to the labs and they'd show off new 186 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: stuff and maybe two or three years after Satoshi is 187 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,660 Speaker 2: white paper got out and people were actually using Bitcoin. 188 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:14,589 Speaker 2: He and I became friends and he asked me what 189 00:11:14,590 --> 00:11:16,550 Speaker 2: I thought of the paper and I looked, I read 190 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:20,870 Speaker 2: it more carefully and said, I don't see any way 191 00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:23,020 Speaker 2: to break this. This looks pretty strong. 192 00:11:23,530 --> 00:11:27,410 Speaker 2: I'll help you talk about it in an article And 193 00:11:27,410 --> 00:11:32,429 Speaker 2: at that point actual use of Bitcoin was mostly shady 194 00:11:32,429 --> 00:11:37,390 Speaker 2: transactions and I remember exchange of messages with him about, 195 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: we'll see what happens when and he said ah maybe 196 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 2: I won't write about it this summer and he probably 197 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: regrets that. But 198 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:50,309 Speaker 2: my opinion there was, this could work might not. It's 199 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,770 Speaker 2: whether a business is successful is not a matter of 200 00:11:54,780 --> 00:12:00,970 Speaker 2: mathematical certainty to be, it's a matter, it's a human process, politics, economics, 201 00:12:00,980 --> 00:12:03,220 Speaker 2: social forces and so on. 202 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,370 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's just a spot on 203 00:12:06,370 --> 00:12:09,270 Speaker 1: point Stuart and I think sometimes we get carried away 204 00:12:09,270 --> 00:12:11,580 Speaker 1: by text potential but we don't realize take itself is 205 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:13,330 Speaker 1: not a panacea. It has to be seen within the 206 00:12:13,330 --> 00:12:14,900 Speaker 1: context of the society we live in. 207 00:12:14,910 --> 00:12:18,940 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I mean that's a truism of technical folks. 208 00:12:18,950 --> 00:12:25,429 Speaker 1: Indeed. So here we are in 2022 is incredibly large festival. 209 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,740 Speaker 1: A lot of applications around block chains, climate change-related work. 210 00:12:29,740 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: You know, people think that, you know, some of the 211 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,710 Speaker 1: solutions can come through by using 212 00:12:32,890 --> 00:12:39,119 Speaker 1: block change based verification and reporting the world of people 213 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,930 Speaker 1: who find Blockchain full of potential. I think it's bigger 214 00:12:42,929 --> 00:12:45,950 Speaker 1: than the world of people who find crypto currencies full 215 00:12:45,950 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: of potential, would you agree to that? 216 00:12:48,490 --> 00:12:53,260 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm fully in agreement with that sentiment. When people 217 00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:57,750 Speaker 2: ask scott and me about our time stamping work and 218 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,260 Speaker 2: they said, did you imagine 219 00:12:59,460 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: backing up the integrity of a financial system? We said yes, yes. 220 00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:08,890 Speaker 2: And we really meant we aimed to be able to 221 00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:13,170 Speaker 2: handle all the world's records and we worried about scalability. 222 00:13:13,179 --> 00:13:18,350 Speaker 2: Remember the experimental code was first running in 91 still 223 00:13:18,350 --> 00:13:19,390 Speaker 2: makes sense now. 224 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,239 Speaker 1: Absolutely. But 225 00:13:21,429 --> 00:13:26,270 Speaker 1: the world of Blockchain based applications, what fascinates you these days. 226 00:13:26,270 --> 00:13:28,059 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at this, you know, a 227 00:13:28,059 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: whole spectrum of various use cases that we have beyond cryptocurrencies, 228 00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: where do you think is the biggest transformational potential? 229 00:13:36,850 --> 00:13:41,150 Speaker 2: That's hard to say it. The potential is everywhere the execution, 230 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:47,460 Speaker 2: whether successful taking, you know, ideas to practice depends on execution. 231 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: When their software involved. You need proper water date of 232 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,110 Speaker 2: the software, proper security procedures for the software, but you 233 00:13:56,110 --> 00:13:59,870 Speaker 2: need users excited about it. That's a matter of exciting 234 00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: people's enthusiasm. 235 00:14:01,050 --> 00:14:04,589 Speaker 1: So Stuart, I guess where I'm coming from is beyond 236 00:14:04,590 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 1: the issue of ensuring the sanctity of records, which I 237 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,540 Speaker 1: suppose is the base motivation for your original paper 238 00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: today. It seems to me that in some cases, I mean, 239 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: with all due respect to all the tech entrepreneurs out 240 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,050 Speaker 1: in the world, sometimes we have solutions looking for problems. 241 00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. 242 00:14:21,530 --> 00:14:23,470 Speaker 1: And and I felt 243 00:14:23,740 --> 00:14:26,930 Speaker 1: to sort of compelled to ask you which problems in 244 00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:29,350 Speaker 1: the sort of smaller subset just beyond the issue of 245 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: this time stamping documents? Do you find fascinating that you 246 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,540 Speaker 1: think there is genuine potential for being solved through the 247 00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: Blockchain based system. 248 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,180 Speaker 2: So, in many places, in the third world property records 249 00:14:40,180 --> 00:14:45,260 Speaker 2: and so on are tampered with. Absolutely. Um, not on record. 250 00:14:45,270 --> 00:14:47,860 Speaker 2: And if a powerful person 251 00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:51,350 Speaker 2: wants to throw you off a small piece of property, 252 00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:55,630 Speaker 2: you have at a certain location in town, they can 253 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,540 Speaker 2: at least some first world countries where there are laws 254 00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: and institutions and regulations in place to make that harder. 255 00:15:04,890 --> 00:15:08,660 Speaker 2: You might be more secure in your property. There's a 256 00:15:08,670 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: nobel prize winning economist from chile who 257 00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:17,260 Speaker 2: wrote more than 20 years ago about the potential for 258 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: the world's economy if bringing all the property records in 259 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,030 Speaker 2: the third world into the regime of well respected law. 260 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: I think Fernando de Soto. That's it. That's it. Right, yes, 261 00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:32,670 Speaker 1: I fully concur um, I'll share with you. One example. 262 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:34,490 Speaker 1: In fact, the proponent of the solution that I'm going 263 00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:36,790 Speaker 1: to talk to you about now is here in this festival, 264 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,180 Speaker 1: Deputy Governor of central cambodia dr 265 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: very, very fascinating solution for small and medium sized enterprises 266 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: to do settlement when they were having a hard time 267 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,220 Speaker 1: getting included in the formal banking system. So here's one 268 00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:54,470 Speaker 1: area to your point, the leapfrogging from the third world 269 00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:56,490 Speaker 1: state to advance cutting edge. 270 00:15:56,810 --> 00:15:59,450 Speaker 2: I mean, and we see many countries in the third 271 00:15:59,450 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: world where wired phone lines are only in the big cities. 272 00:16:03,450 --> 00:16:07,310 Speaker 2: That's right. But now everybody's walking around with a cell. 273 00:16:07,630 --> 00:16:10,820 Speaker 2: You and I here in Singapore are getting in touch 274 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:14,700 Speaker 2: with each other and navigating our way through this extravaganza 275 00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:18,490 Speaker 2: with these fancy computers. But there are poor people in 276 00:16:18,490 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: the third world and they're all carrying cell phones too. 277 00:16:21,660 --> 00:16:25,610 Speaker 2: That's a big change since 1991 makes a bigger difference 278 00:16:25,610 --> 00:16:28,500 Speaker 2: to the world than Blockchain will for a little while. 279 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,510 Speaker 1: Absolutely Stewart 280 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: cryptography is computational intensive and things that are competition intensive 281 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,090 Speaker 1: require a lot of energy. And in the case of Bitcoin, 282 00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:43,130 Speaker 1: we're seeing that the competition demands are creating this backlash 283 00:16:43,130 --> 00:16:46,470 Speaker 1: among the environmentally conscious part of the society saying that, 284 00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, the brown 285 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,330 Speaker 1: aspect of Bitcoin is terrible for climate change. Right, what 286 00:16:53,340 --> 00:16:54,670 Speaker 1: are your thoughts on this? 287 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:00,130 Speaker 2: The use of energy for Bitcoin? Security is a waste 288 00:17:00,130 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: of energy. It's still small. If you're worried about the planet, 289 00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:08,190 Speaker 2: you should be. The scale of energy now consumed by 290 00:17:08,190 --> 00:17:09,870 Speaker 2: Bitcoin is not that large. 291 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,070 Speaker 2: I warmed the planet by flying here from new york, 292 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: things like the airline industry and well, automobile industry changing 293 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,510 Speaker 2: those will make a much bigger difference to the climate. 294 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,899 Speaker 2: But of course, as you said, that high tech people 295 00:17:23,910 --> 00:17:26,810 Speaker 2: worry about their own high tech stuff. Everybody knows about 296 00:17:26,810 --> 00:17:31,169 Speaker 2: their own dirty laundry, not necessarily about problems elsewhere, but 297 00:17:31,170 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 2: of course, what's now known 298 00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:39,930 Speaker 2: as Nakamoto consensus, which is the use of wastefully energy 299 00:17:39,940 --> 00:17:44,139 Speaker 2: intensive computation in order to ensure the integrity of the 300 00:17:44,140 --> 00:17:49,110 Speaker 2: records is not the only consensus mechanism in use. And 301 00:17:49,109 --> 00:17:54,889 Speaker 2: there are a bunch of competing Blockchain systems that do 302 00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 2: not use 303 00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:00,390 Speaker 2: the proof of work, consensus as in Bitcoin, but in 304 00:18:00,390 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: fact there are ways to paralyze the computation that use 305 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: much less energy than Bitcoin while still using proof of 306 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,449 Speaker 2: work and it's yet to be seen, what actually turns 307 00:18:15,450 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: into the foundation of integrity of records for different applications 308 00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:24,300 Speaker 2: for both scott and me. Our impulse is 309 00:18:24,490 --> 00:18:28,140 Speaker 2: to grab a metaphor from somewhere completely else. Let 1000 310 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: block chains balloon. 311 00:18:29,369 --> 00:18:32,100 Speaker 1: Okay, so here's a hard question for you. Okay. 312 00:18:32,540 --> 00:18:37,930 Speaker 1: Um some people would argue that decentralization is basically the 313 00:18:37,940 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: dream of libertarians that they don't believe in central authority 314 00:18:42,130 --> 00:18:45,740 Speaker 1: and the world revolves around central authorities, central banks and 315 00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: regulators and governments and so on that. A challenge to 316 00:18:49,770 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: that centralization is almost like a civilisational challenge that we 317 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:55,429 Speaker 1: are pushing ourselves toward 318 00:18:55,450 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: lawless world that has no borders, that has no cross 319 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,940 Speaker 1: border integrity of regulation. If we allow decentralized Blockchain to 320 00:19:04,940 --> 00:19:07,469 Speaker 1: proliferate for a very wide range of use cases. 321 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: So in fact, the adoption of a technical mechanism is 322 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: a human process. So scott and I solved the problem 323 00:19:17,609 --> 00:19:18,369 Speaker 2: of 324 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,389 Speaker 2: ensuring the integrity of a string of bits. A time 325 00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: stamped email message about meeting for lunch tomorrow can be 326 00:19:27,690 --> 00:19:31,470 Speaker 2: checked that exactly this string of bits existed in the 327 00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:33,050 Speaker 2: world that the time stated, 328 00:19:33,619 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: but that is not an assurance that the english language 329 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:38,210 Speaker 2: meeting 330 00:19:39,140 --> 00:19:44,170 Speaker 2: actually happened anywhere. You and I may have purposely sent 331 00:19:44,170 --> 00:19:45,950 Speaker 2: this message while we were at the other end of 332 00:19:45,950 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: the planet doing some nefarious deeds. The connection between bits 333 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:55,470 Speaker 2: and atoms, as I sometimes phrase, it is not assured 334 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: for the Blockchain world, theoretical computer scientists mathematicians first used 335 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,970 Speaker 2: this phrase oracles. If you have a smart contract that 336 00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: depends on a financial index. 337 00:20:08,780 --> 00:20:13,869 Speaker 2: The financial index is outside the particular Blockchain where the 338 00:20:13,869 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: parties may be recording their transactions and if they need 339 00:20:18,290 --> 00:20:22,020 Speaker 2: a way of ensuring that the particular financial index is 340 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:26,140 Speaker 2: exactly this number at this time. The way of doing 341 00:20:26,150 --> 00:20:32,290 Speaker 2: the message is delivered by what's called an oracle. Some 342 00:20:32,290 --> 00:20:36,100 Speaker 2: oracles are more trustworthy than others. 343 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,730 Speaker 1: I think that's such a well nice way of putting it. 344 00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:40,570 Speaker 1: I was going to follow up to you about, you know, 345 00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: is a Blockchain fraud proof. But you've already answered that question. 346 00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:46,780 Speaker 1: So yeah, I appreciate your making that point. 347 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: You also talked about just now issues related to tokens. 348 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,659 Speaker 1: So like non fungible tokens which were all the rage 349 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:56,659 Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago. I think there 350 00:20:56,660 --> 00:20:59,500 Speaker 1: are quite a few setups here as well on N. F. T. 351 00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:03,050 Speaker 1: Is related to art related to sports memorabilia and perhaps 352 00:21:03,050 --> 00:21:06,330 Speaker 1: also related to carbon capture and carbon credit and so on. 353 00:21:06,340 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: What's your thought on the whole N. F. T. Movement? 354 00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:10,860 Speaker 2: I'm happy to see it. 355 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: So let's take a step back. What is an N. F. T. Well, first, 356 00:21:15,570 --> 00:21:23,180 Speaker 2: it's a horrendous acronym for for the practice. It's too late. Yes, 357 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: that train has left the station. But what is an N. F. T. 358 00:21:27,490 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: And N. F. T. Is essentially a time stamped assertion 359 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:35,370 Speaker 2: of ownership of something. 360 00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:40,669 Speaker 2: If that something is a string of bits, then it's 361 00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: easier to check it and so on than if that 362 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,150 Speaker 2: assertion of ownership is of a physical object. 363 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:53,550 Speaker 2: For example, the complex physical phenomenon that might be captured 364 00:21:53,550 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: by the carbon offset. I might purchase from a plane 365 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,330 Speaker 2: trip here is more difficult. You need trustworthy oracles in 366 00:22:01,330 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: order to do that. Now. Trustworthy oracles don't have to 367 00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:11,340 Speaker 2: necessarily be central trusted authorities. The spirit of decentralization that 368 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:17,140 Speaker 2: excites lots of Blockchain enthusiasts is about devising ways to 369 00:22:17,609 --> 00:22:22,389 Speaker 2: decentralized things as much as possible. But the enthusiasts, the 370 00:22:22,390 --> 00:22:25,230 Speaker 2: maximalist who say well code is law and we're going 371 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: to change all the world's institutions by a week from tomorrow. 372 00:22:29,530 --> 00:22:31,669 Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. Yeah. 373 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: So I think in behavioral economics we use the term 374 00:22:34,450 --> 00:22:38,590 Speaker 1: incentive compatibility that you know get certain incentives aligned. You 375 00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:41,570 Speaker 1: don't have to have a centralized authority where your oracles 376 00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:43,310 Speaker 1: or any other sort of you know, entity can then 377 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:45,570 Speaker 1: start doing the verification station. 378 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: This is very sort of close to our heart as well. 379 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:51,060 Speaker 1: In my bank. You know we are looking at sort 380 00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:53,890 Speaker 1: of you know, N. F. T. Based solutions around carbon 381 00:22:53,890 --> 00:22:58,580 Speaker 1: credit setting up carbon exchanges where you have these verifiable 382 00:22:58,580 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: pieces of code that allows you to know the sanctity 383 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,859 Speaker 1: of the place that you're buying the carbon credit form 384 00:23:03,869 --> 00:23:07,270 Speaker 1: and we are pretty excited about that short. What are 385 00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:09,669 Speaker 1: you working on these days? What's keeping you busy? 386 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,149 Speaker 2: I'm a part time consultant in cryptography 387 00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:17,570 Speaker 2: Mostly Blockchain projects. But my doctoral thesis was in fact 388 00:23:17,580 --> 00:23:21,860 Speaker 2: in a different area. That was the bleeding edge of 389 00:23:21,869 --> 00:23:26,490 Speaker 2: some small group of interested researchers. Back then I finished 390 00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: my degree in 87 but the area of research I'm 391 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:31,270 Speaker 2: about to know 392 00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:34,450 Speaker 2: Is now all over the place. Lots of people here 393 00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: have heard of it and are getting excited about it. 394 00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:42,610 Speaker 2: zero knowledge proofs and multiparty computation. So I have advised 395 00:23:42,619 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: some projects in that area too. 396 00:23:44,550 --> 00:23:47,969 Speaker 1: Could you expand on that concept or it's too intricate 397 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:49,270 Speaker 1: a concept expand on. 398 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if the listeners to a financial podcast 399 00:23:53,690 --> 00:23:59,020 Speaker 2: want to hear a five minute explanation of a cryptographic 400 00:23:59,020 --> 00:23:59,780 Speaker 2: construction 401 00:24:00,010 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: but I'm happy to do it if you if you 402 00:24:02,770 --> 00:24:03,020 Speaker 2: if 403 00:24:03,020 --> 00:24:06,060 Speaker 1: you personally I'm really fascinated to hear that. So please. 404 00:24:06,060 --> 00:24:07,409 Speaker 1: I mean I'm not going to get Stuart Haber on 405 00:24:07,410 --> 00:24:08,889 Speaker 1: this podcast ever again. So 406 00:24:09,050 --> 00:24:11,100 Speaker 2: how do you know? That's true. 407 00:24:11,109 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: That's true. 408 00:24:12,010 --> 00:24:14,790 Speaker 2: I mean I've had a wonderful couple of days in 409 00:24:14,790 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: Singapore so far and I be happy to come back 410 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:18,890 Speaker 1: and I come to new york all the time too. 411 00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:19,260 Speaker 1: So 412 00:24:19,270 --> 00:24:21,970 Speaker 2: okay, well let's make an appointment. 413 00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: So zero knowledge proof is a protocol for two parties 414 00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:34,929 Speaker 2: approver and a verifier whereby the approver can prove to 415 00:24:34,930 --> 00:24:39,580 Speaker 2: the verifier that a certain assertion is true without giving 416 00:24:39,580 --> 00:24:42,619 Speaker 2: away any information about why it's true 417 00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: now for example, I can prove a mathematical statement to 418 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,530 Speaker 2: you by giving all the details the way. Zero knowledge 419 00:24:51,530 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: proofs work though is that there's a back and forth 420 00:24:55,210 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 2: some random choices, especially by the challenger. The verifier to 421 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: try and catch the approver cheating and a properly constructed 422 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,450 Speaker 2: zero knowledge proof has the property that at the end 423 00:25:08,450 --> 00:25:12,220 Speaker 2: of the procedure, the verifier nose with a very high 424 00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 2: certainty 425 00:25:13,300 --> 00:25:16,850 Speaker 2: that the assertion is true but literally has learned nothing 426 00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: about why it's true. Now that's a paradoxical seeming 427 00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:26,139 Speaker 2: Short list of requirements. In fact, how to do that 428 00:25:26,140 --> 00:25:31,060 Speaker 2: was first shown at a theoretical computer science meeting and 429 00:25:31,060 --> 00:25:32,970 Speaker 2: I believe in 85, I'm 430 00:25:32,970 --> 00:25:34,660 Speaker 1: surprised you thought that this would not be of interest 431 00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:36,830 Speaker 1: to people in the finance world because finance is all 432 00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:39,980 Speaker 1: about verification and an informational integrity. 433 00:25:39,980 --> 00:25:42,830 Speaker 2: No, no, no, I misspoke when I said people wouldn't 434 00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:46,110 Speaker 2: be interested in. But as one of the researchers writing 435 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,990 Speaker 2: early papers, of course we spoke have a bunch of 436 00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:51,950 Speaker 2: papers from that time which 437 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 2: include paragraphs about how important this would be for real 438 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,590 Speaker 2: world uses. But in fact the procedures were hard to 439 00:26:00,590 --> 00:26:04,090 Speaker 2: carry out in practice and there was very little running 440 00:26:04,090 --> 00:26:04,740 Speaker 2: code 441 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:10,210 Speaker 2: about 15 years ago, a bunch of applied cryptography researchers 442 00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:13,070 Speaker 2: sort of all I mean this was floating around in 443 00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: the air and several places around the world at about 444 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,619 Speaker 2: the same time, teams decided to take this old research 445 00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:24,380 Speaker 2: and try and do it in practice. And now there 446 00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:29,530 Speaker 2: are companies that actually offer multi party computation services using 447 00:26:29,530 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: zero knowledge proofs 448 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: If I look out into the exhibition hall right now 449 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,590 Speaker 2: I don't see a company name that I know to 450 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:39,689 Speaker 2: be doing that but I'm I'm sure I wouldn't have 451 00:26:39,690 --> 00:26:42,810 Speaker 2: to get very far in order to find find one 452 00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:46,010 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating. Okay, final question. And if it's a dumb 453 00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:48,570 Speaker 1: question we'll take it out of the podcast. The question 454 00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:52,860 Speaker 1: is as follows, can quantum computing break the Blockchain? 455 00:26:52,869 --> 00:26:56,580 Speaker 2: That's not a dumb question and the answer is 456 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:02,889 Speaker 2: yes and no. So we know quantum computing algorithms that 457 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:05,750 Speaker 2: if the quantum computer is big enough can handle enough 458 00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:12,750 Speaker 2: data it's easy to break public key cryptography. The R. S. 459 00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 2: A encryption, our essay signatures, elliptic curve signatures and elliptic 460 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,190 Speaker 2: curve encryption can be broken but that's been 461 00:27:21,410 --> 00:27:25,650 Speaker 2: on the horizon coming very soon for decades. The quantum 462 00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:30,300 Speaker 2: computation algorithm was presented at another theoretical computer science conference 463 00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 2: this one 464 00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:35,950 Speaker 2: In New Orleans 94. We are much closer to seeing 465 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: quantum computers or so we're told I'm not a physicist 466 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,020 Speaker 2: but it's certainly prudent to plan 467 00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:47,730 Speaker 2: for the demise of public key cryptographic systems of the 468 00:27:47,730 --> 00:27:52,050 Speaker 2: kind we now use for example. Nist the National Institute 469 00:27:52,050 --> 00:27:55,369 Speaker 2: of Standards and Technology in the U. S. Is running 470 00:27:55,369 --> 00:28:01,550 Speaker 2: a competition for quantum safe or post quantum cryptography and 471 00:28:01,550 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: the intention there is deploy standardized and then deploy a 472 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,369 Speaker 2: small handful of new algorithms for which we know no 473 00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: quantum attacks 474 00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 2: that is in in process. Post quantum as they're called 475 00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: algorithms may be used. But coming back to block chains, 476 00:28:22,050 --> 00:28:25,530 Speaker 2: the important part of a Blockchain of course is my 477 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:29,530 Speaker 2: own part is the integrity of the data and that 478 00:28:29,540 --> 00:28:33,990 Speaker 2: depends on the use of what are called cryptographic hash functions. 479 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,300 Speaker 2: One way hash functions which are a way of 480 00:28:37,510 --> 00:28:41,340 Speaker 2: as it were computing a digital fingerprint for for any 481 00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 2: any record. So breaking a hash function means finding two 482 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,180 Speaker 2: different records that have the same fingerprint and there are 483 00:28:50,190 --> 00:28:52,300 Speaker 2: quantum algorithms that speed up 484 00:28:52,610 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 2: the search for what we call colliding documents that his 485 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: pairs of documents that have the same fingerprints but it 486 00:29:00,730 --> 00:29:04,690 Speaker 2: it's by no means an exponential speed up. So S 487 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:08,690 Speaker 2: H a 2 56 shot to 56 now in widespread 488 00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: use standardized by the same institution quite a while ago 489 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:14,510 Speaker 2: is likely 490 00:29:15,090 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: safe against quantum attacks. However, Blockchain systems as now deployed 491 00:29:21,850 --> 00:29:26,310 Speaker 2: certainly use digital signatures. That is if I send you 492 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 2: a certain amount of Bitcoin, 493 00:29:28,090 --> 00:29:32,260 Speaker 2: the way I do that is by writing down your transaction, 494 00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:36,580 Speaker 2: my promise to send you 17. Bitcoin sense is a 495 00:29:36,590 --> 00:29:40,270 Speaker 2: transaction written down in a certain format and I sign it. 496 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,090 Speaker 2: That is I computer digital signature as it's called again, 497 00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,810 Speaker 2: it's a certificate separate from the string itself, like a 498 00:29:47,810 --> 00:29:51,550 Speaker 2: timestamp certificate. It's a certificate that can only be computed 499 00:29:51,550 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: by me 500 00:29:53,390 --> 00:29:57,910 Speaker 2: assuming my private signing key hasn't leaked and so on. 501 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,590 Speaker 2: The public key signatures in widespread use in most Blockchain 502 00:30:01,590 --> 00:30:07,330 Speaker 2: systems now would be subject to a quantum attack and 503 00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:12,060 Speaker 2: we will have to use quantum safe signatures. This 504 00:30:12,060 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: Is really cool. But I guess the bottom line is 505 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,090 Speaker 1: that the concept that you worked on 32 years ago, 506 00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:21,050 Speaker 1: I don't think they're in danger of going extinct anytime 507 00:30:21,050 --> 00:30:22,940 Speaker 1: soon because you have thought through 508 00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:24,490 Speaker 1: possible solutions 509 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:26,930 Speaker 2: scott and I were just lucky to be there first 510 00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:29,980 Speaker 2: and had the elbow room the research freedom to choose 511 00:30:29,980 --> 00:30:31,140 Speaker 2: a problem to work on 512 00:30:31,150 --> 00:30:34,220 Speaker 1: brilliant Stuart Haber, thank you so much for your time 513 00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:36,020 Speaker 1: and insight. This has been an honor. It's 514 00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:37,100 Speaker 2: been a pleasure to 515 00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:37,900 Speaker 1: talk to you 516 00:30:38,110 --> 00:30:39,650 Speaker 2: and your audience. 517 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,970 Speaker 1: Indeed. So end by thanking our audience of this podcast, 518 00:30:43,980 --> 00:30:48,100 Speaker 1: Kobe time was produced in the Singapore Fintech Festival Hall 519 00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:51,020 Speaker 1: Four thanks to our listeners for tuning in. All episodes 520 00:30:51,020 --> 00:30:54,250 Speaker 1: of Covid time are available on all major podcast platforms 521 00:30:54,250 --> 00:30:57,300 Speaker 1: including apple, google and Spotify as well as in Youtube 522 00:30:57,310 --> 00:31:00,260 Speaker 1: and for our research publications webinars, you can find them 523 00:31:00,260 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: all by googling DBS Research Library. Have a great day